New SV OG1 Paint

[ANAO]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170329/58b297b7c40f979f4b21e00fa9b53d52.jpg

[cdn_bacon]

celery.

love that colour

[Climb01742]

I'd call it celadon. in the 60s and 70s, MB offered it as a color for their cars. It was amazing. And that SV looks great, too.

[ANAO]

I'd call it celadon. in the 60s and 70s, MB offered it as a color for their cars. It was amazing. And that SV looks great, too.

They also lowered their price about $350 and offered as a frameset, but I did not see a price for that. I emailed and requested.

[jtbadge]

I think the price drop corresponds to dropping the Dura-Ace/Ultegra mix in favor of straight Ultegra.

RIP lavender. But the new color is sweet, too.

[ANAO]

I think the price drop corresponds to dropping the Dura-Ace/Ultegra mix in favor of straight Ultegra.

RIP lavender. But the new color is sweet, too.

That derailleur definitely looks like DA.

[jtbadge]

That derailleur definitely looks like DA.

It does look like DA.

I was basing my assumption off of the verbiage on their website (http://www.thevanillaworkshop.com/ready-made/) where all mentions of Dura-Ace have been removed. The yellow one pictured on the bottom of the site even has a DA9100 crank. So who knows.

I also noticed they have a link to a bunch of 'next level upgrades.' Doesn't offering a bunch of customization on this bike defeat the purpose of having a ready-made option vs. the regular Speedvagen line?

[.RJ]

They also lowered their price about $350 and offered as a frameset, but I did not see a price for that. I emailed and requested.

Please post the answer here. I probably cant afford it, but I can dream!

[ANAO]

Please post the answer here. I probably cant afford it, but I can dream!

Will do. I'll also follow up with a question re: DA.

My guess for frameset price: $3,800.

[Nooch]

$3395 for the frameset according to the instagrams.

Under 5k complete mechanical ultegra build.

[ANAO]

$3395 for the frameset according to the instagrams.

Under 5k complete mechanical ultegra build.

I'm above recommended saddle height for a 56. Am I that lanky? I don't feel like I am.

[jonbek]

damn i was hoping the frame would come in under 3k.

[ANAO]

$3,395 includes a frame, painted to match Enve fork, and alloy seat mast topper in matte army green or matte citron.

We're also happy to accessorize out the frameset with some painted stem, frame pumps, and hubs if that interests you at all?

[R3awak3n]

as much as I love lavender and have a lavender bike I think this color is much nicer.

[MattTuck]

it's just a fluoro green bike? This is like Apple releasing a gold colored iPhone. :D All in good fun, of course.

[FlashUNC]

Give me the lavendar one anyday. Too close to Rock Lobster's seafoam imo.

[R3awak3n]

Give me a Rock Lobster anyday

ftfy

[FlashUNC]

ftfy

Well yeah, that's why I bought one.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1476/25127100486_8066448046_b.jpg

[cachagua]

"Cast your eyes on that one."
"What a lovely tie!"
"Yes, it's the new color."
"Oh the new color, what is it?"
"Yellow, can't y'see?"

--Beyond The Fringe (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2I2t1-OXJk)

[TunaAndBikes]

I'm above recommended saddle height for a 56. Am I that lanky? I don't feel like I am.

You and me alike.

[jwess1234]

It is closish to Rock Lobster. But slightly more celery and flouro--really nice color!!

[chiasticon]

I also noticed they have a link to a bunch of 'next level upgrades.' Doesn't offering a bunch of customization on this bike defeat the purpose of having a ready-made option vs. the regular Speedvagen line?it's not as customizable as a regular SV. the upgrade options are basically just a couple add-ons that they can buy and paint in bulk, then keep on hand. not so with the regular SV. you make a great point though. and for a "stock" SV (not custom geo, no upgrades) versus OG1, I believe you're really just paying for more intricate paint work. I could very well be wrong though...

I'm above recommended saddle height for a 56. Am I that lanky? I don't feel like I am.I don't understand why they have that on the geo chart. it has me into 56 territory, but I could never fit one. if you don't know your bike size so badly that you're using saddle height to guess which one you'd fit, you prolly shouldn't be buying a Speedvagen...

did they offer the army green last year? much better than the citron, but I still prefer the lavender.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/52b27a54e4b01dead0d25335/58d969341b631b15c63e827c/58d96b756b8f5b87ea178399/1490643851867/OG1_OLIVE_3QtrRREV.jpg?format=1500w

[ANAO]

did they offer the army green last year? much better than the citron, but I still prefer the lavender.


Yeah, army green and lavender were last year.

Somebody in one of my networks was offloading an army green 54 for about $4k a few months ago.

[eBAUMANN]

$3,395 includes a frame, painted to match Enve fork, and alloy seat mast topper in matte army green or matte citron.

We're also happy to accessorize out the frameset with some painted stem, frame pumps, and hubs if that interests you at all?

i still will never understand why someone would drop that kinda loot on a stock frameset...

[ColonelJLloyd]

I'm thirsty.

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2011/10/12/nyregion/16FYI/16FYI-articleInline-v3.jpg

[Peter P.]

i still will never understand why someone would drop that kinda loot on a stock frameset...

The labor that goes into the extra features of the frame warrant the price. Demand obviously shows they are reasonably priced, or people wouldn't be buying them in the quantities to keep the Speedvagen program going. How long the OG program goes on will be an indicator of its success.

[jlwdm]

i still will never understand why someone would drop that kinda loot on a stock frameset...

..with a single color paint job.

Jeff

[eBAUMANN]

The labor that goes into the extra features of the frame warrant the price. Demand obviously shows they are reasonably priced, or people wouldn't be buying them in the quantities to keep the Speedvagen program going. How long the OG program goes on will be an indicator of its success.

can you describe what "features" exist on these frames that could not also exist on a custom frame for $1k cheaper?

[pdonk]

Last year's colours and options seemed better to me.

The horizon paint now appears to be a few set options with fewer colour choices.

Prices are up significantly and my dollar down make me regret not getting one last year as now they are outside of my pay grade. At the price for what I'd want there are other bikes I'd like more even though SV has always spoken to me.

[TunaAndBikes]

I don't understand why they have that on the geo chart. it has me into 56 territory, but I could never fit one. if you don't know your bike size so badly that you're using saddle height to guess which one you'd fit, you prolly shouldn't be buying a Speedvagen...

The ISP with stainless topper is probably the reason why they list it and also why it is a limiting factor in fit for out of spec dudes and gals.

I'm pretty lanky and look at the saddle height for this bike because although I could change reach and such, i can't change ISP recommended length, so props to Speedvagen for putting it up.

[ANAO]

I mean I ride a 770 saddle height (with a 172.5 crank, or 773ish with 170's) on a 56 with 9cm drop.

I do not think that is SO crazy for a race bike, which these seek to represent?

:rolleyes:

[chiasticon]

The ISP with stainless topper is probably the reason why they list it and also why it is a limiting factor in fit for out of spec dudes and gals.

I'm pretty lanky and look at the saddle height for this bike because although I could change reach and such, i can't change ISP recommended length, so props to Speedvagen for putting it up.yeah I was wondering that after I posted my previous comment. I was originally thinking that they would trim the ISP to your saddle height, which is what they do for custom SV's. but now I'm wondering: do they have the ISP at a set height for these OG1's and then you just adjust the topper within that?

what confuses me there is that each size has a 55mm recommended range of saddle heights. in my experience, ISP toppers usually only have about a 2cm range. they look to be using the Ritchey topper (https://ritcheylogic.com/wcs-1-bolt-mast-topper) which has either 50 or 70mm options. so... maybe they use the 70mm one if you're at the top of the range?

[sandyrs]

yeah I was wondering that after I posted my previous comment. I was originally thinking that they would trim the ISP to your saddle height, which is what they do for custom SV's. but now I'm wondering: do they have the ISP at a set height for these OG1's and then you just adjust the topper within that?

what confuses me there is that each size has a 55mm recommended range of saddle heights. in my experience, ISP toppers usually only have about a 2cm range. they look to be using the Ritchey topper (https://ritcheylogic.com/wcs-1-bolt-mast-topper) which has either 50 or 70mm options. so... maybe they use the 70mm one if you're at the top of the range?

They cut it

[misterha]

can you describe what "features" exist on these frames that could not also exist on a custom frame for $1k cheaper?

gonna have to agree with eBAUMANN.

I understand an ISP and stainless steel bits adds to the cost but it can't be an extra ~$1000

Tomii is just at 2k with just the same amount of craftsmanship.

[andeww]

i used to have a civilian way back when, super similar color.
if i was a baller i would SV real quick

http://www.pedalroom.com/f/08726b5f4b_6.jpg

[MattTuck]

gonna have to agree with eBAUMANN.

I understand an ISP and stainless steel bits adds to the cost but it can't be an extra ~$1000

Tomii is just at 2k with just the same amount of craftsmanship.

Can you really put a price on the essence that Speedvagen imbues in each frame? This is not a commodity product. It is something special. :D

[benb]

gonna have to agree with eBAUMANN.

I understand an ISP and stainless steel bits adds to the cost but it can't be an extra ~$1000

Tomii is just at 2k with just the same amount of craftsmanship.

Popularity uncharge, for sure they can justify it. We're all different, I have no real desire to ever own a SV/Vanilla but I can easily recognize/respect they are in the top 3 most desirable/most coveted US made steel frames you can buy today in all likelihood. It's partly just fashion but it's very real IMO. Since I'm on the east coast I would definitely put a RS frame ahead of them but I would expect a west coast perspective to likely put a Vanilla/SV ahead. I might say Firefly might be right up there but I probably have a huge Boston bias for them.

I'm actually not sure how I line up that top 3... I think RS and SV/Vanilla are definitely in the top 3 but I'm not sure who else I put in that list. It'd actually make a neat thread to try and come up with a top 5 or top 10. I just think it might be too hard to get anywhere near a consensus for even a top 5. I'm not talking about my actual preference but my perception of what Paceliners might think collectively.

[eBAUMANN]

also, am i the only person who sees an ISP as a NEGATIVE?

i enjoy the LOOK of it as much as anyone, but thats all its really doing...its a look...which I guess is kinda the SV "thing" but there are a lot of practical arguments against ISP's...
for example: TRAVELING WITH YOUR BIKE...which is easily one of the best things you can do with it.

to accept this limitation on your $5k bike is kinda silly, unless you already have another travel bike or something else with a seat post.

or maybe they offer the frame without an ISP?

(ill be honest, i havent even bothered clicking into the website to look at the thing. the price tag is enough for me to swipe left.)

----

there are SO MANY talented builders in this great country, builders with far less image and popularity (but no less quality in their product), builders busting their asses day in and day out to make dreams happen and provide for their families.

if you have 3400 clams burning a hole in your pocket, seek out one of these folks, the more local the better.
email them, call them, shake their hand, share a beer, go for a ride.
there is so much more to this framebuilding thing than color or "features" or the "top 3."

look beyond the brand and buy something that means something from someone you can maybe, one day, even call a friend :)

(i also totally get that some of you are the go-down-to-the-dearship-and-buy-the-new-benz types and dont give a sh*t about personal relationships with the people who make your stuff, please feel free to disregard all the above if thats the case)

[jtbadge]

ISP is definitely a negative for me, too. I have similar dimensions as ANAO and would otherwise ride a 56 but recommended saddle height puts me on a 58.

[chiasticon]

They cut itthen I go back to my original question: why do they state a recommended saddle height in their geo chart? other than just to say "this is the highest we'll build the ISP to for this size"?

gonna have to agree with eBAUMANN.

I understand an ISP and stainless steel bits adds to the cost but it can't be an extra ~$1000

Tomii is just at 2k with just the same amount of craftsmanship.I don't get it either. a custom steel Zank road frameset with powder coat and Enve 2.0 fork (i.e. Zank model most comparable to OG1) is $2300; $1k cheaper. and you get custom sizing.

only standout items SV offers for this are: stainless bits on high-wear areas, ISP + topper, shaped seatstays, "superlight steel" (though they don't say what it is).

they say the seatstays are super hard to make and really contribute to the ride quality. that is what it is, I guess. I don't know who else offers the stainless bits they do. but I'm sure you could get the same steel and an ISP from a custom builder as well, for not a ton over a $2300 base price. once adding those on though, do the stainless bits and shaped seatstays close the rest of the $1k gap?

[eBAUMANN]

...once adding those on though, do the stainless bits and shaped seatstays close the rest of the $1k gap?

no, not even close.

any custom builder can do stainless bits if you want em, its not rocket science, its just metal...

honestly, i doubt those stays ride all that differently from any s-bend stuff on the market.
a talented custom builder could likely reproduce the shaping on em as well, if you really wanted a SV clone THAT BAD.
the shaping kris at 44 does on his stays or nate at zukas is equally impressive, IMO.
talk to those guys if you want that ultra-swoopy look.

and yes, ZANK, no question.

[misterha]

Popularity uncharge, for sure they can justify it. We're all different, I have no real desire to ever own a SV/Vanilla but I can easily recognize/respect they are in the top 3 most desirable/most coveted US made steel frames you can buy today in all likelihood. It's partly just fashion but it's very real IMO. Since I'm on the east coast I would definitely put a RS frame ahead of them but I would expect a west coast perspective to likely put a Vanilla/SV ahead. I might say Firefly might be right up there but I probably have a huge Boston bias for them.

I'm actually not sure how I line up that top 3... I think RS and SV/Vanilla are definitely in the top 3 but I'm not sure who else I put in that list. It'd actually make a neat thread to try and come up with a top 5 or top 10. I just think it might be too hard to get anywhere near a consensus for even a top 5. I'm not talking about my actual preference but my perception of what Paceliners might think collectively.

I won't deny that Vanilla/SV has that magic and allure to them but one thing I can't get pass is that Sacha isn't the one fabricating the SV bikes not to say the person behind the torch is not capable.

There was a thread called the Holy Trinity basically your top three, good discussion there. http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=192247&highlight=holy+trinity

[MattTuck]

I won't deny that Vanilla/SV has that magic and allure to them but one thing I can't get pass is that Sacha isn't the one fabricating the SV bikes not to say the person behind the torch is not capable.



You speak the truth.

https://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/47886623/wizard-of-oz-revealed-pay-no-attention-to-the-man-behind-the-curtain.jpg

[eBAUMANN]

I won't deny that Vanilla/SV has that magic and allure to them but one thing I can't get pass is that Sacha isn't the one fabricating the SV bikes not to say the person behind the torch is not capable.

There was a thread called the Holy Trinity basically your top three, good discussion there. http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=192247&highlight=holy+trinity

top 3, holy trinity...:crap:

based on what? instagram followers?
who's been around long enough to have a list of dopers that rode their frames?

can you tell how i feel about this kinda talk? :rolleyes:

[ANAO]

top 3, holy trinity...:crap:

based on what? instagram followers?
who's been around long enough to have a list of dopers that rode their frames?

can you tell how i feel about this kinda talk? :rolleyes:

Imshii, imshii, imshii.

[eBAUMANN]

Imshii, imshii, imshii.

No! Ha! Not Imshi. Imshi is just for fun. I dont feed my non-existent family with Imshi.

Support YOUR LOCAL BUILDER people, thats my point.
Dont think you have one? Ask around...

[ANAO]

No! Ha! Not Imshi. Imshi is just for fun. I dont feed my non-existent family with Imshi.

Support YOUR LOCAL BUILDER people, thats my point.
Dont think you have one? Ask around...

Coarse, Horse, Breismeister?

[MattTuck]

This story may be relevant. https://qz.com/944549/van-leeuwen-ice-cream-sales-increased-after-it-redesigned-its-packaging/

A curious thing happened when high-end ice cream brand Van Leeuwen redesigned their packaging: People began snapping pictures of supermarket freezers.
“Didn’t even crave for ice cream but just because of the cute packaging,” wrote a customer who shelled out almost $20 for a pink pint of strawberry and an amber-colored container of salted caramel. Such transactions driven by eye-candy, coupled with a new distribution and merchandising scheme, saw the nine-year old Brooklyn business boost sales by 50% since last fall.
Redesigning packaging so it “looks good on social media,” is a deliberate strategy. Van Leeuwen co-founder Laura O’Neill and partners Pete and Ben Van Leeuwen worked closely with storied design firm Pentagram to make their pints and trucks “very Instagrammable,” says O’Neill.

[TunaAndBikes]

They cut it

I stand corrected... and confused!

[eBAUMANN]

This story may be relevant. https://qz.com/944549/van-leeuwen-ice-cream-sales-increased-after-it-redesigned-its-packaging/

just threw up in my mouth a little.

[chiasticon]

seems like the only thing we're left with is that SV are getting the extra cash because of brand cachet and availability. two weeks is pretty impressive, you gotta admit. the only custom builders I can think of that could get near that time frame would be Seven and Indy Fab; and even then I think you're looking at more like a month or so.

[earlfoss]

The SV is a really nice bike, and the guys seem to run an excellent marketing campaign. Frankly, IMO the SV has much more sex appeal than any Zanc that I have seen. People want a cool looking bike, and the SV is cool. They have their clientele figured out, and they're great at making bikes that please them.

I have to agree on the ISP comments. If nothing else, it's a huge strike against resale value. I imagine that the perception of versatility of fit after cutting an ISP is bad enough for most potential buyers to pass.

[Joachim]

No other brand elicits such emotional responses, not even Baum, which is even more expensive. I also wonder how many of those that poo poo the brand, have actually ridden one? I have ridden my share of custom and stock frames, from Kirk Onesto to Serotta Meivici, Ottrott,Spectrum and Firefly and Pegoretti. I bought an used SV that just happen to fit me exactly. It's also the bike that I have held on the longest and that should say something. If I could afford a custom one at the new price, I would order one without any hesitation. Luckily I have one that fits that is currently getting a repaint from Jordan Low at Hot Tubes and should good as new in a few weeks (its also the only bike that I have spent money on to have repainted).

[-dustin]

seems like the only thing we're left with is that SV are getting the extra cash because of brand cachet and availability. two weeks is pretty impressive, you gotta admit. the only custom builders I can think of that could get near that time frame would be Seven and Indy Fab; and even then I think you're looking at more like a month or so.
but OG1s aren't custom. are SVs coming in at 2 weeks, as well?

i love the matte army green. i've thought that was a winner since...well, the OG SV came out. you know...SSCX, brake cable through seatmast, stem that integrated with a King headset. Zipp 404s with King SS hubs. That bike was so damn sexy.

[MattTuck]

No other brand elicits such emotional responses, not even Baum, which is even more expensive. I also wonder how many of those that poo poo the brand, have actually ridden one? I have ridden my share of custom and stock frames, from Kirk Onesto to Serotta Meivici, Ottrott,Spectrum and Firefly and Pegoretti. I bought an used SV that just happen to fit me exactly. It's also the bike that I have held on the longest and that should say something. If I could afford a custom one at the new price, I would order one without any hesitation. Luckily I have one that fits that is currently getting a repaint from Jordan Low at Hot Tubes and should good as new in a few weeks (its also the only bike that I have spent money on to have repainted).

I can only speak for my own perception. Vanilla made some truly great bikes, the waitlist got out of control, and so Speedvagen was born. I don't begrudge Sacha and his team for wanting to make money, but it always rubbed me the wrong way that you had these people on the waitlist for a Vanilla, and then Speedvagen comes along and it is sort of a 'back door to get a Vanilla' and they jumped a whole bunch of spaces in the line. If I were the last person to get on Sacha's waitlist before the launch, I'd be a bit annoyed. You get on a waistlist with the expectation that the guy is working through the waitlist, not launching and managing a new brand of frames. Atleast, that was my perception.

He and the team are clearly delivering a top tier product, and I don't think anyone would dispute that, but the heavy emphasis on brand/marketing and image, and that initial launch combined in a way that just doesn't connect with me.

The price issue is a different thing altogether. A lot of psychology goes into pricing, and how we value things. I think it is fair to say that there are people doing really great frames for less money. At the same time, I think without the halo effect of Vanilla, and the brand he's built for SV, that he wouldn't be able to get that price. Again, I don't begrudge him for hustling and he's done a great job with it as a business both on the brand and product side (ISM notwithstanding).

[eBAUMANN]

The SV is a really nice bike, and the guys seem to run an excellent marketing campaign. Frankly, IMO the SV has much more sex appeal than any Zanc that I have seen. People want a cool looking bike, and the SV is cool. They have their clientele figured out, and they're great at making bikes that please them.

You're right, no question.

that said, im always gonna argue in support of builders who target RIDERS instead of marketing teams that target crotches/wallets.

[FlashUNC]

No other brand elicits such emotional responses, not even Baum, which is even more expensive. I also wonder how many of those that poo poo the brand, have actually ridden one? I have ridden my share of custom and stock frames, from Kirk Onesto to Serotta Meivici, Ottrott,Spectrum and Firefly and Pegoretti. I bought an used SV that just happen to fit me exactly. It's also the bike that I have held on the longest and that should say something. If I could afford a custom one at the new price, I would order one without any hesitation. Luckily I have one that fits that is currently getting a repaint from Jordan Low at Hot Tubes and should good as new in a few weeks (its also the only bike that I have spent money on to have repainted).

Curious why you didn't go back to the SV team for a repaint? Wait time? Cost?

You're right, no question.

that said, im always gonna argue in support of builders who target RIDERS instead of marketing teams that target crotches/wallets.

The guy who rides more than anyone I know rides an SV. Really beat that thing up too. But I guess they found his wallet.

[ANAO]

You're right, no question.

that said, im always gonna argue in support of builders who target RIDERS instead of marketing teams that target crotches/wallets.

Always fight for the underdog because someday, one underdog will win. And then you suddenly need to learn how to defend someone else.

[chiasticon]

I also wonder how many of those that poo poo the brand, have actually ridden one?I'm not trying to poo-poo it so much as just understand why they charge what they do. is it for the name or is it really that much better of a ride? it could be that, maybe for lack of a better comparison, they're the rapha of handmade bikes. everyone talks mad sh*t on 'em about their pricing and marketing until they really try it and go "wow... yeah, this is really great." but I don't know. never ridden one. until then, I can just speculate as to why they charge what they do.

but OG1s aren't custom. are SVs coming in at 2 weeks, as well?no, but it's a matter of months for those. I guess I meant that IF and Seven both do stock sizing (as well as custom) that you can get in a short period of time. unless this has changed...?

[colker]

This is not a commodity product. It is something special. :D

Why?

[misterha]

I'm not trying to poo-poo it so much as just understand why they charge what they do. is it for the name or is it really that much better of a ride? it could be that, maybe for lack of a better comparison, they're the rapha of handmade bikes. everyone talks mad sh*t on 'em about their pricing and marketing until they really try it and go "wow... yeah, this is really great." but I don't know. never ridden one. until then, I can just speculate as to why they charge what they do.


Good analogy, I enjoy my rapha gear but I never pay retail for them. That being said I was able to ride a couple SV during their fit tour and they are great machines but like many others think the price is high and while other might think the price is appropriate.

[-dustin]

no, but it's a matter of months for those. I guess I meant that IF and Seven both do stock sizing (as well as custom) that you can get in a short period of time. unless this has changed...?
I've always thought the way OG1s worked was the frames were prefabricated. Order comes in, mast is cut, then off to COAT for paint. And there is a price difference...I don't think IF and Seven have different prices for custom vs. stock, or do they?

who knows. I'd ride an OG1. I'd ride a SV. I'd rather have something put together by Sacha himself, though.

my desire for an SV is what turned me onto DeSalvo.

[benb]

I'm not trying to poo-poo it so much as just understand why they charge what they do. is it for the name or is it really that much better of a ride? it could be that, maybe for lack of a better comparison, they're the rapha of handmade bikes. everyone talks mad sh*t on 'em about their pricing and marketing until they really try it and go "wow... yeah, this is really great." but I don't know. never ridden one. until then, I can just speculate as to why they charge what they do.

no, but it's a matter of months for those. I guess I meant that IF and Seven both do stock sizing (as well as custom) that you can get in a short period of time. unless this has changed...?

I think you're right, people may be impressed, but what always gets me about that is they aren't custom, sure most of us don't need custom, but where are you going to ever get to test ride a SV? And what is the likelihood it is going to be setup for you? No bike is going to blow me away and make me a true believer unless:

- The geometry of the bike suits me
- The bike has been adjusted to fit me
- The saddle agrees with me

I bet my chance of ever riding a SV that meets those 3 criteria is near 0. The only way I'm ever even going to see a SV is if I meet another rider who has one, and they agree to let me try their bike. First off they'll have to want to let me ride it, second they'd have to have similar pedals to me. No way I would ever ask them to let me adjust it. So given that, no way one would blow me away. It's a far stretch I think that I'll even meet anyone with an SV at all, if I did it'd likely be an awkward ride on a bike that didn't fit me right. I'd be able to tell it was a nice bike but it wouldn't be able to blow me away.

I don't think IF and Seven can do 2 weeks.. that is a really, really short period for custom. I think Seven builds the bike in under 2 weeks but they always have a queue that is more than 2 weeks. Maybe 4-6 weeks if you order at the lowest demand part of the winter. I almost bought a Seven last winter and it was 6 weeks at that time IIRC.

[thegunner]

fwiw, they've been having fit tours up and down both coasts (and internationally) where they will let you test ride a few bikes they brought out. it works if you're in a major city.

[icepick_trotsky]

I don't really understand the animosity this engenders.

If you don't like it, don't buy one. Who cares?

[benb]

Who's showing animosity? Didn't seem like that to me.

[SoCalSteve]

I recently purchased a second hand SV Road ( stock geometry ). Their stock geometry would be exactly what I would order from custom.

The bike is built really well and is very pretty. Handles great, nimble and is very fast...a true race bike, for sure.

By that same token ( and maybe it's just me ) but it is not a smooth riding bike at all. The only other steel bike I own is a DK Terraplane, which is very smooth. I can totally see why racers would want to ride a SV, but it's not an " event " bike, by any stretch. Cannot imagine doing a century on this thing. 25 miles on relatively smooth bike path beats me up.

Again, would make a great race bike... but I am no racer, nor play one on TV. I'll probably end up keeping and doing low mileage winter rides on it.

[eBAUMANN]

I don't really understand the animosity this engenders.

If you don't like it, don't buy one. Who cares?

its not animosity so much as it is sadness haha

i see so many talented builders struggling to make ends meet while outfits like SV rake it in thanks to their juggernaut of a marketing machine.

it is what it is but i like to think that we cyclists are a little smarter than that...to fall for gimmicks and "features," but now that i write that i realize thats what this entire industry is built on...

[ANAO]

its not animosity so much as it is sadness haha

i see so many talented builders struggling to make ends meet while outfits like SV rake it in thanks to their juggernaut of a marketing machine.

it is what it is but i like to think that we cyclists are a little smarter than that...to fall for gimmicks and "features," but now that i write that i realize thats what this entire industry is built on...
See my Facebook post.

[-dustin]

Then the question becomes what did Sacha do correctly that others haven't? Perhaps it's as simple as "expanded". And actually marketed himself. Which lead to more $$$ and a bigger marketing budget. blah blah yadda yadda.

[ANAO]

Then the question becomes what did Sacha do correctly that others haven't? Perhaps it's as simple as "expanded". And actually marketed himself. Which lead to more $$$ and a bigger marketing budget. blah blah yadda yadda.
He just made smart marketing decisions. Countless times we've seen builders rise and fall due to poor business decisions. Most builders are, after all, artists.

[beeatnik]

SV > Stinner

[colker]

Then the question becomes what did Sacha do correctly that others haven't? Perhaps it's as simple as "expanded". And actually marketed himself. Which lead to more $$$ and a bigger marketing budget. blah blah yadda yadda.
Well... First he is a damm fine bicycle builder. He also has an artistic sensibility not only for fine form but also a good feeling for what´s going on: he feels the pulse of his generation. He is connected to this thing we call Soul when it´s a mix of emotions of ideas, rebellion, motivations. The way he connects w/ welders, painters, racers and street riders is drawn by the pulse, soul, culture of the moment. And then he charges for that because we all want things that not only function but carry the groove, soul, zeitgeist of the moment. Is it wrong to sell it? Is it wrong to buy it? In the 1500s people would buy oblivion and a ticket to heaven from the catholic church. We are still doing it so i guess it´s a proven market.
The OG is a light, tig welded steel frame w/ single color paint, good geometry and a lame name. Is it worth the extra 1500 dollars?

[beeatnik]

Zeitgeist of the Moment should be the bad translation of a French film.

Phrase of the day.

[ANAO]

Zeitgeist of the Moment should be the bad translation of a French film.

Phrase of the day.
He's not selling a bike, he's selling a feeling!

[beeatnik]

In the early 2000's when Silver Lake was still funky (2 bedroom homes for less than 1.5M and 500/month 1bd apartments), a smoke shop opened next to The World Famous Rockaway Records. The place was called Zietgeist. Dudes must have been high when they painted their sign.

http://www.rockaway.com/

[colker]

Zeitgeist of the Moment should be the bad translation of a French film.

Phrase of the day.

If it´s a good film like A Bout De Souffle then it´s worth it.

[Joachim]

Curious why you didn't go back to the SV team for a repaint? Wait time? Cost?



The guy who rides more than anyone I know rides an SV. Really beat that thing up too. But I guess they found his wallet.

Neither. I've been familiar with Jordan Low's paintwork for a while and wanted him to paint this since it pretty technical. He is pretty well known in the bicycle art world, painted for the likes of Firefly, Tommii and Seven....and now head painter at Hot Tubes.

[pdmtong]

I can only speak for my own perception. Vanilla made some truly great bikes, the waitlist got out of control, and so Speedvagen was born. I don't begrudge Sacha and his team for wanting to make money, but it always rubbed me the wrong way that you had these people on the waitlist for a Vanilla, and then Speedvagen comes along and it is sort of a 'back door to get a Vanilla' and they jumped a whole bunch of spaces in the line. If I were the last person to get on Sacha's waitlist before the launch, I'd be a bit annoyed. You get on a waistlist with the expectation that the guy is working through the waitlist, not launching and managing a new brand of frames. Atleast, that was my perception.

He and the team are clearly delivering a top tier product, and I don't think anyone would dispute that, but the heavy emphasis on brand/marketing and image, and that initial launch combined in a way that just doesn't connect with me.

The price issue is a different thing altogether. A lot of psychology goes into pricing, and how we value things. I think it is fair to say that there are people doing really great frames for less money. At the same time, I think without the halo effect of Vanilla, and the brand he's built for SV, that he wouldn't be able to get that price. Again, I don't begrudge him for hustling and he's done a great job with it as a business both on the brand and product side (ISM notwithstanding).

What Sacha is doing is building a scalable business the only way it is possible...with stock sizes and a relentless focus on a few models. and, to take the mystery out of whether the money will yield the dream, he goes on the road for a "fit tour" and sizes you up personally. so now you have the eyes of the head guy while you are on the fit cycle, an increased confidence in the proposed geometry, and all the aspiration and emotion that comes with buying a custom/handmade frame.

vanilla, as in a frame made by sacha, with vanilla on the downtube, is IMHO all but gone. I read somewhere he is only making 10-15 of those a year, and that math on the waitlist effectively means closed or never. and even those 10-15 are all the same genre for the year, you get your geo and color and pay $$$$.

I never thought that SV was cutting the line because back then, 2006-2011 or so, sacha was till making vanillas...and making whatever it is you wanted when your name came up...road, rando, brevet, touring, city, track, cross...lugged, fillet, it was all to your spec. the early SV you had to fill out an application and "get selected" - those were mostly round tubes welded by mike d. now the tubing is more shaped but the welder(s) is unknown but still TIG. while SV is a bike from the same shop, it was never sacha on the torch 100%

with the prices and glam I can see the reaction to SV being all marketing but, it makes sense vanilla has arrived at this juncture. they developed a design they like, have the processes in place to fabricate, and are conquering all that's left - reaching prospects and ensuring fit.

Frankly the same could be said about FF - the anodization and endless porn shots...no one ever bashes Tyler jamie and Kevin of being all marketing.

[colker]

What Sacha is doing is building a scalable business the only way it is possible...with stock sizes and a relentless focus on a few models. and, to take the mystery out of whether the money will yield the dream, he goes on the road for a "fit tour" and sizes you up personally. so now you have the eyes of the head guy while you are on the fit cycle, an increased confidence in the proposed geometry, and all the aspiration and emotion that comes with buying a custom/handmade frame.

vanilla, as in a frame made by sacha, with vanilla on the downtube, is IMHO all but gone. I read somewhere he is only making 10-15 of those a year, and that math on the waitlist effectively means closed or never. and even those 10-15 are all the same genre for the year, you get your geo and color and pay $$$$.

I never thought that SV was cutting the line because back then, 2006-2011 or so, sacha was till making vanillas...and making whatever it is you wanted when your name came up...road, rando, brevet, touring, city, track, cross...lugged, fillet, it was all to your spec. the early SV you had to fill out an application and "get selected" - those were mostly round tubes welded by mike d. now the tubing is more shaped but the welder(s) is unknown but still TIG. while SV is a bike from the same shop, it was never sacha on the torch 100%

with the prices and glam I can see the reaction to SV being all marketing but, it makes sense vanilla has arrived at this juncture. they developed a design they like, have the processes in place to fabricate, and are conquering all that's left - reaching prospects and ensuring fit.

Frankly the same could be said about FF - the anodization and endless porn shots...no one ever bashes Tyler jamie and Kevin of being all marketing.

It´s a good business model as any other.

[pdmtong]

I think you're right, people may be impressed, but what always gets me about that is they aren't custom, sure most of us don't need custom, but where are you going to ever get to test ride a SV? And what is the likelihood it is going to be setup for you? No bike is going to blow me away and make me a true believer unless:

- The geometry of the bike suits me
- The bike has been adjusted to fit me
- The saddle agrees with me

I bet my chance of ever riding a SV that meets those 3 criteria is near 0. The only way I'm ever even going to see a SV is if I meet another rider who has one, and they agree to let me try their bike. First off they'll have to want to let me ride it, second they'd have to have similar pedals to me. No way I would ever ask them to let me adjust it. So given that, no way one would blow me away. It's a far stretch I think that I'll even meet anyone with an SV at all, if I did it'd likely be an awkward ride on a bike that didn't fit me right. I'd be able to tell it was a nice bike but it wouldn't be able to blow me away.
.

That is the whole point of the fit tour and the van full of demo's they bring along.

Here in the bay area guess how many SV I have seen "in the wild"?
ONE road, hanging on the wall at the RCCSF (not counting the two friends with one)
TWO CX, during a warmup lap; one was crankles', one was poppawheelie's.

[crankles]

its not animosity so much as it is sadness haha

i see so many talented builders struggling to make ends meet while outfits like SV rake it in thanks to their juggernaut of a marketing machine.

it is what it is but i like to think that we cyclists are a little smarter than that...to fall for gimmicks and "features," but now that i write that i realize thats what this entire industry is built on...

wow. I was going to lay off this thread until that last post.

Full disclosure. I currently own 2 SV cx rigs. A co-worker currently has a 3rd.
(2007, 2008, and a 2015). I also know Sacha personally and consider him a friend...so take what I have to say with that in mind.

Lets look at some of the numbers and save the ISP discussions for another day.

SV OG1 frame/fork/"seat post equivalent": $3395 (Complete Bikes...built $4995)

Another frame builder (I own several of this builder as well), not the cheapest nor steepest: Race-day tubeset frame $2100 + S Bend stays $50+Enve 2.0 $390+Thomson masterpiece Seatpost $150. Stainless bits..lets say $80?. total =$2770....add his ultegra build kit of $1990...$4760 built.

Here we have an attempt at an apples2apples delta of $625 for Frame/fork/seatpostything
and a complete build delta of $235. I'm sure you can nickle and dime the parts a bit, find a cheaper seatpost..etc, but I think these numbers are pretty factual.


So what do you get for that $625/235?

-the "Complete Look", a Sacha aesthetic. Beauty is in the eye...There are a few Surprise Me's and colors (hot pink, Lavender) that were just not my thing, but for the most part. I dig it...a lot.
-a pretty cool "stock" paint job with ghost graphics. Looks simple but it's not.
-a race geometry that gets tweaked from feedback (I think this has been more prevalent w.r.t to the CX than Road geo though).
-custom spec'ed tubeset.
-custom dropouts. functionally not super relevant, but it costs and completes the look.
-a two week turnaround.
-a two week turnaround.

Then there are also the harder to quantify intangibles:
-He's not a solo builder. He employs quite a few people whom he pays a living wage and healthcare. It's part of the impetus of the OG1. Keeping his folks employed.

-He does fit tours. East Coast, West Coast, Texas, Australia, Taiwan, Singapore, Japan.... Not many builders venture out to do that. I know my fit so the tour means little to me, but I know it's important for quite a few folks who feel far better meeting the builder, getting advice and having him take their measurements as opposed to getting fitted at a shop and sending them off to the builder. The fewer folks involved in that transfer of information the better. If you are lucky enough to have a local builder that also has a decent eye for fitting, go for it. IMHO they are the exception, not the rule.

What you you call a "juggernaut of a marketing machine" some might call a lot of hard work. You make it sound like he's hired Saatchi and Saatchi for goodness sake. They do it all themselves. What you call "raking it in" others might call running a small business responsible for allowing others to do what they love AND pay their rent.

So to some (me included) , those things add up to $615. To others not so much, but you make it sound as if he's killing it solely based on his ability to 'market' himself and cash in on it. I dispute that.

[e-RICHIE]

]
<snipped>What you you call a "juggernaut of a marketing machine" some might call a lot of hard work. You make it sound like he's hired Saatchi and Saatchi for goodness sake. They do it all themselves. What you call "raking it in" others might call running a small business responsible for allowing others to do what they love AND pay their rent.<cut>



Agreed.
Like.

Sacha has done a marvelous job of it. The Speedvagen concept, the business model, and all things in between - these are brilliant. It didn't just happen. He had an idea and, as crankles points out, worked at it, fine tuned it, honed and crafted it, and now it's a thing. He's one of the few from his generation, the very few, to make it to the other side. That side includes a troupe of creative folks doing good and creative work, and making a living.

As asked above, what's with the hostility? We should be happy that we know the guy, remember when he began, watched/followed his personal journey, and now he's doing well. I admire that, especially in this trade when it's so hard to endure a season much less a few good years before you tear it all down and realize a decent wage and maybe some money for an IRA aren't in the cards.

Good for all of them for fabricating nice bicycles, making a market, and doing it on their own terms.

[MattTuck]

But this thread didn't get started to talk about the good value that SV provides. It literally started because of the new paint color. It's all good that they found the business model that works, and he provides the fit tour, etc. But if the only 'innovation' year to year is the paint color, that is why some view the company as hype.

Not saying it is justified, but it does seem plausible that this kind of thread feeds the narrative.

[pdmtong]

But this thread didn't get started to talk about the good value that SV provides. It literally started because of the new paint color. It's all good that they found the business model that works, and he provides the fit tour, etc. But if the only 'innovation' year to year is the paint color, that is why some view the company as hype.

Not saying it is justified, but it does seem plausible that this kind of thread feeds the narrative.

Do they need to innovate year-year? The bulk of the SV design happened organically from probably 2006-12.
Sacha mentioned back then a need to focus more on process and QC to maintain cost efficiency and customer satisfaction.

For rim brake road, they are happy with the basic design. what's left but paint and market expansion? Note they did intro a 2017 superlight SV road to drive towards a 13# build. as the saying goes, if you have to ask how much.

For disc, they developed a metal tapered headtube and an innovative rear disc.

And then there is the urban racer - like it or not.

I think you are seeing what you want to see, and not looking hard enough beyond the paint.

That said the 2017 overt PAINT for ~$3k is over the top..a lot of labor to mask something like that.

[MattTuck]

I think you are seeing what you want to see, and not looking hard enough beyond the paint.


Just the opposite. Based on a number of responses from people I respect earlier in the thread (your reply to my earlier comment being one of them), I did re-examine my own beliefs about the brand and why I may not have been properly weighting all the other things that they were doing well. Once I got past the idea that SV was jumping the line for Vanilla, it became easier to see a company with a novel business model, a strong design aesthetic and extreme attention to detail. That is something I can respect and appreciate, even if I am not a always a fan of their designs.

The most recent comment wasn't so much my own beliefs at this point, but actually me trying to articulate the criticism that others might have, so that the folks (like you) can understand why some view it as 'hype'.

[pdmtong]

Just the opposite. Based on a number of responses from people I respect earlier in the thread (your reply to my earlier comment being one of them), I did re-examine my own beliefs about the brand and why I may not have been properly weighting all the other things that they were doing well. Once I got past the idea that SV was jumping the line for Vanilla, it became easier to see a company with a novel business model, a strong design aesthetic and extreme attention to detail. That is something I can respect and appreciate, even if I am not a always a fan of their designs.

The most recent comment wasn't so much my own beliefs at this point, but actually me trying to articulate the criticism that others might have, so that the folks (like you) can understand why some view it as 'hype'.

Got it.

Back in 2005-2007 or so the Vanilla wait list reached capacity, and there was a list to get on the list. why was that? well, here was a guy who was building across genre, using your fabrication methodology of choice, and doing so with an aesthetic that really stood out.

So as he had often stated, SV was incarnated so racers could get his designs without the wait.

years later, on a genre specific basis, here are others who are as capable. but few build across genres like sacha does - the only person who immediately comes to my mind is kelly bedford.

ten years ago no one was doing the things that sacha was doing so unless one knows that, it is easy to dismiss all the current as instagram bombing and hype.

the paint, the delivery sled. the fit tour. seems obvious BUT no one else is doing those things today.

maybe we should start a poll and ask what's more outrageous, the silca pegoretti pump or the speedvagen abbey tools box.

[charliedid]

Lovely bikes. Buy it if you like it.

[Peter P.]

can you describe what "features" exist on these frames that could not also exist on a custom frame for $1k cheaper?

You're paying extra for the "intellectual property" of these features. Sacha came up with the ideas, then made them. There's value in that. The stainless steel contact plates, those swoopy seatstays; it all adds up.

Should another builder take an order from a customer to build a Speedvagen copy, to me as the builder it would be an embarrassment, a form of plagarism.
I like to think there's some sort of honor among framebuilders to not steal ideas.

P.S. Can someone clarify for me; I'm under the impression the seatmast is built to size for the owner, regardless of the OG-level or Speedvagen level purchase. No?

[fuzzalow]

My random comments.

SpeedVagens are bikes that have their own identity and vibe. Which is not a conjuring of mojo driven and contrived by some clever marketing scheme. Very much a success story and completely deserved and earned and all homegrown-made-in-USA to boot. That is lots to be supportive of with this company, these fine bikes and this business model

A lotta angst surrounding topics like this are over individual judgments concerning value in consumer choice involving a consumer good. People gonna feel about something the way they feel about something. I have often said that the conversation over bikes, not just concerning SV but any bike not viewed as a utility product, often misses the point and is asking both the wrong questions and giving non sequitur answers: Left-brain answers to a right-brain question.

The finer things in life cost what they cost. I never concern myself over the cost of pastime and/or hobby goods because they are all purely discretionary purchases anyway. So I buy what makes me happy and if I do I do and if I don't I don't - simple as that. And I certainly have no reason to comment on what somebody else decides is suitable for them.

Full disclosure: I own a Vanilla as being its original client. Sacha had the best insight, and courage, in coming up with a fit geometry of any custom builder I have ever worked with. Because even if I know my fit, sometimes it might still be in a state of flux as to how the frame geometry might implement the accommodation of my rider geometry. Most builders are loath and skeptical of requests for long n' low EuroPro geometries because they are uncommon and I'd only guess some clients might be overly optimistic in asking for something - no builder wants an unhappy client who bite off more than he can chew. But for my Vanilla, Sacha cut through the noise and delivered.
Those SV Fit Tours must be a great experience and I regret not attending the closing night dinner gathering at Gotham Market when Sacha & Co last visited NYC.

[colker]

Hard to quantify something which is more than utility, like a bicycle.
If someone can design and build a bike that´s sexy/ desirable enough to have a lot o f people opening their wallets and staying happy w/ their decisions years after the surrender moment... it´s gold. It´s not communism and lusting for products is a virtue.
It´s up to you to dissect through the mirrors and look at the thing without the sexy. That is not an ethical call.. it´s just a personal assessment. I see nothing exceptional in those seatstays and prefer the fastback seat lug of Kirk and Serotta but that´s me. Also whatever money i pay, i want a steel, handmade fork.