Question on gearing and group pacelining

[tctyres]

I'm turning to you guys with a bunch of pacelining experience on a query I got after Saturday's ride. The group is set to get everyone pacelining evenly over long distances. It's essentially a weeks long training program through the end of May. One comment was that maybe I was out of sync because of my gearing: a cx70 46/36 on the front with a 5800 11/28 on the rear. I didn't have any trouble holding speed or drafting. The problem was in my "smoothness."

OK. I can handle that feedback. I'm not really sure that was the problem, though. I think the "look" of my steel bike (a Black Mountain road) was more problematic, but I have no idea.

The whole thing was a bit of a Y-chromosome macho-disaster, imo --- lots of surging, bad line picks, poor communication, a group leader who could have toned it down. Mentally, I was out of it before the ride was half done. I kind of want to delete it from my strava. I think being out of it mentally was more of the issue here.

So you guys who have the experience with choice of gears, is the mid range on the 46-36 problematic? Should I solely be riding 53-39 on these rides? What could be the hurdles I'm facing? I've got extra cranks and rings here, so switching is relatively easy.

[Peter P.]

Your gearing is irrelevant.

You need a low enough low to get up hills.

You need a high enough gear for sprints/downhills.

Sounds like your pedaling style or your paceline riding skills just plain suck.

Without seeing you in action, I can't tell if it's one, or both.

[Ralph]

With a 46 big ring in front....and a cassette starting with 11, you should have no problems being in an equivalent gear to someone using a 50 (50-34) or someone using a 52 or 53 big ring. If you are riding on flat terrain, the 11-28 may have larger gaps between rear cogs than ideal for flat terrain riding....but I doubt if that was your problem. Sounds to me like there was a bias against your set up....gears and maybe bike. Maybe just racers who don't understand math. Gears are mostly gears....however the math works out. Frankly....I think for most riders.....who use cassettes starting with 11, a 46 large ring makes a lot of sense. Very few riders can spin out a 46X11 on anywhere near flat terrain. so it's plenty tall enough. Find someone else to ride with. Riding should be enjoyable.

[shovelhd]

When I do the Wednesday Night Worlds, I use a tight cassette, an 11-23, and I run a mid compact. I like the 1-2 tooth spacing in the back, as it helps keep my cadence steady when we're flat out.

That said, unless you were over your head in a group that was too fast for you, optimal gearing is a luxury, not a necessity. Did you let gaps open in front of you? How were the riders in front of you? Jittery? Wiggling side to side? Were any of them on the rivet? And what was with this ride leader yelling at people? What were his issues? Was he encouraging or demeaning? Finally, who talked to you about your setup? What was their concern? Did they think you were over your head, or just not conforming to what they think you should be?

Roadies can be really arrogant pricks sometimes. Don't take it to heart. Just realize that they may be poor communicators, and were sincerely trying to tell you something. Do the ride again this week and report back.

[Ti Designs]

Really? You think that problems with a group staying in a paceline is an equipment issue? I love this forum...


I've found there are certain things that everybody thinks they do well, but almost nobody can do well without some form of learning process. I've also found that lots of people get insulted when told that they can't do something. Given a new way to insult people, I started taking note of what people can's really do...

There are some things humans are very sensitive to. In sound, pitch is one of them. You can easily tell 88 different notes on the piano. Volume is one of those things your ears adjust to, so any change in volume is only detected relative to the change made. On the bike, power output works the same way. If you're riding along at 200 watts then you decided to bring that down to 150 watts, without a power meter you have no way of knowing what that feels like - your muscles have adapted to 200 watts, anything below that is nothing.

The combination of motors that can't really regulate output and the dynamics of a paceline, not to mention most people's idea of how a paceline works, and you have a disaster. In teaching groups of new riders how to paceline (that's what I do), the first thing to get across is one very simple concept, and one very simple device to make that work. The paceline itself goes at one speed - a speedometer is all you need. To start with, that speed should be lower than the slowest rider can handle. I have my riders pull off to the left and rotate back. If you're on the right side line, doesn't matter if you're the first rider or any other position, the speed is the same. No speeding up, no slowing down, no gaps between riders. The riders pulling off need to slow down to get to the back of the line. It seems pointless at lower speed, but people learn how the paceline works, and if done right, where the lead person pulls off as soon as the last person who pulled off is clear, it becomes a full paceline (where riders are sheltered both on the way up the right side and back down the left side). If you can't make this work at slow speed, you can't make it work.

I have this theory that any four guys in lycra is a bike race, so this keep it slow thing is never going to work. For this problem I have an easy solution - rip their legs off. If a new rider can't help but surge in a paceline full of other new rider, I'll put them in a paceline full of fast guys. The job of the fast guys is to keep the new guy in (they were once new riders, they know the drill), but give them an understanding of what it's like to be the slowest guy in the group. I didn't say weakest, I said slowest, there's a huge difference. The fast guys know to hit the front and rotate off as soon as they're clear. The new guy thinks "I'm at the front, I need to work hard", and he tries to stay up there. They blow up, move over and go shooting out the back. That's where one of the fast guys puts a hand on his back and pushes him back into the paceline. It only takes 2 or 3 times for this to happen before they get what's happening.

[oldpotatoe]

Your gearing is irrelevant.

You need a low enough low to get up hills.

You need a high enough gear for sprints/downhills.

Sounds like your pedaling style or your paceline riding skills just plain suck.

Without seeing you in action, I can't tell if it's one, or both.

What he said. :hello:

[tctyres]

Thanks for your comments. There's a lot of good feedback here.

Your gearing is irrelevant.

...

Sounds like your pedaling style or your paceline riding skills just plain suck.

Without seeing you in action, I can't tell if it's one, or both.

I think my paceline skills went on holiday when I saw the bs that was going on on the line, so yeah, I admit that I could have done better. I spent a large fraction of the ride thinking, "Why did he do that?" One of the leaders was quiet and rock solid the entire time --- no issues. I've ridden with him before. He called the ride "jagged."

Very few riders can spin out a 46X11 on anywhere near flat terrain. so it's plenty tall enough. Find someone else to ride with. Riding should be enjoyable.

I have no problems descending with a 46x11. Your final comment is exactly why I swing a leg over a frame.

When I do the Wednesday Night Worlds, I use a tight cassette, an 11-23, and I run a mid compact. I like the 1-2 tooth spacing in the back, as it helps keep my cadence steady when we're flat out.

That said, unless you were over your head in a group that was too fast for you, optimal gearing is a luxury, not a necessity. Did you let gaps open in front of you? How were the riders in front of you? Jittery? Wiggling side to side? Were any of them on the rivet? And what was with this ride leader yelling at people? What were his issues? Was he encouraging or demeaning? Finally, who talked to you about your setup? What was their concern? Did they think you were over your head, or just not conforming to what they think you should be?

Roadies can be really arrogant pricks sometimes. Don't take it to heart. Just realize that they may be poor communicators, and were sincerely trying to tell you something. Do the ride again this week and report back.


Really? You think that problems with a group staying in a paceline is an equipment issue? I love this forum...

You had some great lines in here.....

This was rolling terrain and a few steep climbs and descents. The descents were nothing major. Instead of using a speedo, they want us to use "feel" and group dynamics. It's a different style of learning. At a fixed speed, I'd have no problem. I can hold that and adjust my cadence. Unfortunately, that's not what we're doing.

No one was talking or pointing out obstacles. I got pulled over potholes numerous times.

Gaps opened up in front of me a few times (4?) in 60 miles. I'm not sure whether I should keep the wheel or the "feel." I'm trying to keep the effort the same. It just seems like the front riders surged. This happened a couple times, and rather than pull the guys behind me out of whack, I just gently upped my cadence to close. One time it worked flawlessly. One time was a complete c/f when the surgey guy hit a hill and dropped his cadence and speed like a rock. Funny now that I think of this, 3 of those surges were the same guy at the front --- super fit, rides a trainer and started quoting ftp and power stats to me, didn't seem to know how to handle his bike on the road in a group.

There was at least one guy who had fitness problems. He was choking for the final 20 miles. I certainly wasn't the fittest, but I didn't have any problems with breathing at all, even on the front. When I was pulling, I could have been talking, and there were still fitness problems behind me.

I think the leader guy's tone was the problem. He was pissed off that he was riding with people who clearly knew what they were supposed to do but weren't doing it. There was another leader who was encouraging and helpful even in the face of adversity. There was another who said little (rock solid guy), led by example, but knew exactly what was going on when I talked to him. The ride was 9 or 10 guys, three of them leaders.

The quiet leader emailed me after the ride with a few comments, including to consider riding a different bike such that the "CX" gearing might be an issue. I certainly wasn't in over my head.

I'll definitely do the ride again. I don't think I'm very confident in pacelines, and it's easy to get me flustered. That's why I'm doing these rides: I need help and instruction with group dynamics.

[djdj]

Sounds like you need a different group (and I don't mean gruppo).

[ultraman6970]

Interesting... the little I could understand was that you can't hold the bike steady??? Would you please post a picture of your bike? asking because to me it could be that you have a fit problem, to be more precise probably the handlebars too high.

As for the guys not pointing out the holes on the road, well... that is super relative because not everybody does that, my advice with that is riding and looking at the road at the some time it is a skill that you have to master and probably that's the reason they ride w/o talking either so you focus and learn. Learn by looking at the other riders, if you cant figure this out just ask why they do this and that, sure they will answer or ask here. BTW my best guess is that your group has ex racers, you can learn a lot from them but look and imitate them.

If the guys dropped you, dont worry because that always happens even if your macho ego told you before that you were good enough, advice... no matter how good you think you are, always somebody that is better and looking fatter that you will show up at the rides :D So do not feel bad and take it easy, at some point of the training you will be able to catch up with the, but is not going to happen from here to tomorrow... it takes some time.

Enjoy your rides man :)

ps: forget your strava, speed, or whatever other gadget that can eat your head... just go and ride with them.

[tctyres]

Sounds like you need a different group (and I don't mean gruppo).

I think there are something like 60 riders total and they break us out into 7 groups. It's a club thing. It's unlikely I'll ride with any of the same guys next week.

[PepeM]

I'm glad none of the groups I ride with are like that. Didn't know group riding could be such a chore.

Can't see how gearing could be the issue here. Dysfunctional group being dysfunctional seems to be the issue.

[shovelhd]

If you only let a gap open four times in 60 miles, I'd say you did exceedingly well, especially with a varied group. Ideally you'll be behind the same rider the whole time, but it rarely works out that way, with rest stops, traffic controls, etc. If I'm with a group that's all over the place, I'll try and coach the troublemakers (sic), but if they refuse, I mark them as ones to stay away from. No use ruining my ride because of selfish people.

The guy quoting power needs to STFU and watch his speedometer. Like Ed, that's how I coach a paceline, by speed. The faster the paceline gets, the more important speed becomes, because power is not linear. I tell riders to glance at their speedometer often. Don't stare at it, but glance at it. When you are one rider off the front, note your speed before the rider in front pulls off. Once he/she does, roll on your power to match the speed. Don't surge, don't jump, don't stare at the computer. Note the speed and stick it for the length of your pull. If it's a social paceline and the road tips up, then it's ok to slow down and match effort (or power) instead. Don't drop the speed too much unless it's a grade more than 2%-3%. Usually on climbs, pacelines will break up to allow everyone to climb at their own pace, then regroup at the summit.

Bottom line, it doesn't sound like this has anything to do with your gearing.

[jasonification]

Really? You think that problems with a group staying in a paceline is an equipment issue? I love this forum...


I've found there are certain things that everybody thinks they do well, but almost nobody can do well without some form of learning process. I've also found that lots of people get insulted when told that they can't do something. Given a new way to insult people, I started taking note of what people can's really do...

There are some things humans are very sensitive to. In sound, pitch is one of them. You can easily tell 88 different notes on the piano. Volume is one of those things your ears adjust to, so any change in volume is only detected relative to the change made. On the bike, power output works the same way. If you're riding along at 200 watts then you decided to bring that down to 150 watts, without a power meter you have no way of knowing what that feels like - your muscles have adapted to 200 watts, anything below that is nothing.

The combination of motors that can't really regulate output and the dynamics of a paceline, not to mention most people's idea of how a paceline works, and you have a disaster. In teaching groups of new riders how to paceline (that's what I do), the first thing to get across is one very simple concept, and one very simple device to make that work. The paceline itself goes at one speed - a speedometer is all you need. To start with, that speed should be lower than the slowest rider can handle. I have my riders pull off to the left and rotate back. If you're on the right side line, doesn't matter if you're the first rider or any other position, the speed is the same. No speeding up, no slowing down, no gaps between riders. The riders pulling off need to slow down to get to the back of the line. It seems pointless at lower speed, but people learn how the paceline works, and if done right, where the lead person pulls off as soon as the last person who pulled off is clear, it becomes a full paceline (where riders are sheltered both on the way up the right side and back down the left side). If you can't make this work at slow speed, you can't make it work.

I have this theory that any four guys in lycra is a bike race, so this keep it slow thing is never going to work. For this problem I have an easy solution - rip their legs off. If a new rider can't help but surge in a paceline full of other new rider, I'll put them in a paceline full of fast guys. The job of the fast guys is to keep the new guy in (they were once new riders, they know the drill), but give them an understanding of what it's like to be the slowest guy in the group. I didn't say weakest, I said slowest, there's a huge difference. The fast guys know to hit the front and rotate off as soon as they're clear. The new guy thinks "I'm at the front, I need to work hard", and he tries to stay up there. They blow up, move over and go shooting out the back. That's where one of the fast guys puts a hand on his back and pushes him back into the paceline. It only takes 2 or 3 times for this to happen before they get what's happening.

sage advice. I love this forum!

[John H.]

I have been doing a road group ride on the worst bike and worst gearing possible.
Rolling terrain. I am on 34/50 with an 11-36 and WTB Riddler 700x37mm mixed terrain tires at about 45 psi.
I just realize that I have to spin really high rpms sometimes, and 85 rpms sometimes.
Also- the bike reaches terminal velocity more quickly than other bikes- it simply will not go faster.

It sounds to me like your group is not smooth. Some pulling too hard- some pulling almost attack style, big surges on rollers, etc.
This is tough- especially if it is a public ride- You can't really teach on a public ride. Everyone has their own ideas.

You did identify a really smooth rider. That being the case- reshuffle and try to ride behind him. At least it will help your cause.

[Ti Designs]

It just seems like the front riders surged. This happened a couple times, and rather than pull the guys behind me out of whack, I just gently upped my cadence to close. One time it worked flawlessly. One time was a complete c/f when the surgey guy hit a hill and dropped his cadence and speed like a rock. Funny now that I think of this, 3 of those surges were the same guy at the front --- super fit, rides a trainer and started quoting ftp and power stats to me, didn't seem to know how to handle his bike on the road in a group.

So you mean a fun ride where there are tactics involved - I love those. Guys surge because they don't see a danger of overextending themselves. The best tactic there is put them on the defensive. Go with the surge and counter as soon as he eases off. It's a game of poker, you need him thinking that you could have the winning hand...

I was in Florida a few weeks ago in a ride with two guys who were clearly well above the rest of the group. One of them was throwing down attack after attack while guys were getting launched out the back. At one point I found myself isolated with the two fast guys, so took up the ticket punching position - on the back, always picking up the wheel of the rider who just took a pull. They weren't happy with me being there, but at the same time they couldn't both drop me at the same time, so it was either going to be a solo break, or they had a passenger. After the mid point in the ride one of them started a series of short sprints to see who was coming along. I took up the wheel of the other strong rider, knowing I would have a free ride back up. After about a half dozen sprints I put in my own attack. I had no plans of leaving the group, but the guy who had been putting in all the attacks pulled up next to me and looked over to gauge if I was serious.



The quiet leader emailed me after the ride with a few comments, including to consider riding a different bike such that the "CX" gearing might be an issue. I certainly wasn't in over my head.

Beyond a certain cadence it's hard to keep the efforts smooth. Even on my trainer workouts where the resistance is rock steady, my high cadence work goes up and down by as much as 10 RPMs. A bigger gear just makes things smoother...

I'll definitely do the ride again. I don't think I'm very confident in pacelines, and it's easy to get me flustered. That's why I'm doing these rides: I need help and instruction with group dynamics.

One of my favorite parts of coaching is teaching group dynamics and tactics. I bring my riders into a few different group rides, their job is to observe first - no hitting the front for the first 15 minutes, just watching the other riders. Some will struggle every time the road tilts up, others won't. Some will kill themselves at the front, others will sit in... Their first job is to figure out the defensive stance - how to not get dropped. Once they've learned that they can always fall back on it, but they can also try other things. Most rides like this have one of two goals, either use the group to push the average speed, or drop as many people as possible. The average speed rides are all about using the whole group. Hills become a challenge because you would like to have the added power on the flats, but that means keeping the slower riders on the hills in. The drop everybody else rides are a matter of staying in defensive mode until it's time to go.

[Ti Designs]

I have been doing a road group ride on the worst bike and worst gearing possible.
Rolling terrain. I am on 34/50 with an 11-36 and WTB Riddler 700x37mm mixed terrain tires at about 45 psi.
I just realize that I have to spin really high rpms sometimes, and 85 rpms sometimes.
Also- the bike reaches terminal velocity more quickly than other bikes- it simply will not go faster.

We had a 65 degree Saturday in February and everybody else showed up on their go-fast bikes with deep carbon wheels. I showed up on my cross bike with studded snow tires. I call them fast-proof. I've been doing the winter training plan for long enough to know that a 65 degree Saturday in February is still a Saturday in February (base mileage, base mileage, base mileage), but it was nice to see that I wasn't the one struggling on the hills.

[FlashUNC]

As others have mentioned, it ain't the gearing.

And there's only so much you can do when the rest of the pack rides like squirrels on crack. Don't lead people through crap in the road, keep it smooth and keep it consistent. It isn't rocket science.

[Cloozoe]

Sounds like maybe a different group is in order?

[11.4]

I've been on lots of early season team rides where we basically do this for new team members. And I have to say that there isn't a spring on the track when we don't do regulated-speed pacelines for extended warmup and use it to teach skills. Even riders who've been on trainers all winter or who just don't do that well even with years of practice are beneficiaries of the drills.

So, a few points.

First, nobody needs to be a jerk. If they are, talk back. Early season, everybody has some rough days.

Second, there are days when pacelines are just plain awful. The same group can look like a world championship time trial team on one day and the next week look like complete rubes. So give any paceline a chance.

Third, it only takes one or two riders to really discombobulate a whole paceline. If one rider is surging or slipping a bit, there's a chain reaction. Riders pop out of the line so they don't run into you, or they have to accelerate to catch your wheel again, and everybody is getting pissed.

Fourth, without an accurate speedometer/cyclometer on your bike, it's hard to play the game. Set a speed and distance, such as 3 miles at 18 mph, 3 miles at 20 mph, 3 miles at 23 mph, 2 miles at 25 mph, 2 miles at 28 mph, 2 miles at 30 mph. What usually happens is that the rider in front screws up and either surges off the front or suddenly is facing wind and slows down.

Fifth, when doing paceline drills, don't do speeds faster than everyone can handle easily. You can do escalating steps like described above, and riders will figure out when they start to get ragged and can work on it, and if a speed is simply too fast a rider can drop off while the others finish the run and then regroup.

Sixth, anybody can be tense when riding in close formation. In road paceline drills, you want to be passing back down the side with your knuckles within a few inches of the next rider. That means everyone needs to stay in line and not pop out and run into a rider coming back. You also don't want to hit brakes. Ever. Just ease on the pedaling and don't even stop pedaling, and you'll just drift slowly to a different pace if you find yourself closing on the wheel in front of you. You should be able to do this and never be more than a foot from the wheel in front of you, and properly half of that. If you have to close a gap, do it gently so the people behind you don't even notice what you've done.

Seventh, if you get tense, wiggle your toes, wiggle your fingers. That will make you relax on the bike and not tense up. Magic trick. And don't teach pacelines with aero bars. And don't get too low or too aggressive in position. You need to be relaxed and comfortable. If you're relaxed, the guy behind you will be relaxed, and that will carry all the way down the line.

Eighth, gear low. The guys who are trying to pull a 70 cadence in a bigger gear can't adjust speed and keep it as even as the guys riding comfortably in a 90-100 cadence.

Ninth, if you're having problems, get to the front, do your turn, then pull off and let them go. If you can't make it to the front, be sure nobody's coming back at you from their turn at the front and pull up smoothly with your last bit of pre-vomit energy and overlap the rider in front of you halfway. Wave the rider behind you up into that gap and you've covering them and getting them into position. On the track it's easy and intuitively obvious; on the road you have to figure out which side riders are coming off on, whether you have room on the curb side to exit, and so on. Do this sensibly. But don't just gap and then pull out. If you know you can't sustain a paceline pace, get to the front and come off from there. Then nobody else is discomfited.

Tenth, don't be drinking or eating in a practice paceline. That's what you do when the drill is over. You should be focused on being the smoothest cat on the road. Take a sip before the drill starts.

Eleventh, obviously have the whole line in agreement on what road hazards get called out, and how. Pacelines never communicate a pothole or glass in time and voices absolutely don't work. Save the lungs for when it's a real problem like a car, or whatever. The lead rider needs to be sure ALWAYS to signal the riders behind him to avoid parked cars, potholes, etc. And every rider behind the lead needs to be alert to what the riders in front are doing. Every now and then a team pursuit or team sprint on the track will take off, progress to the opposite side of the track, and officials will have messed up and not gotten the starting gate out of the way there. So two to four riders charge into a two-hundred pound piece of angle iron. It's not pretty. On the road, there are always parked cars, road furniture, etc. Everyone has a huge responsibility to the rest to communicate and to watch. And again, a yell doesn't work -- it won't be heard more than a couple riders back. To make all of this easier, don't do it on a course where there are already hazards to deal with. And I always like to make sure that everyone has ridden a warm-up on the stretch of road first just to know what's there.

Twelfth, always follow the wrists of the rider in front of you, not their rear wheel. If the wrists move to steer or to brake or just change position, you'll know before the rear wheel drifts back into you. Looking with glazed eyes at a rear wheel is the best way to clip wheels, and it's an addictive behavior when one is working hard on a line.

That's just the beginning. But understand that a really good (and really safe) paceline is a work of art and it involves a lot of concentration.

If someone was critiquing your gearing, they may have meant you were gearing too high for the speed, not that you had too small a chainring. See my point above. But it's also true that putting a paceline together for the first time in the spring is an exercise that makes passing a healthcare reform act look simple.

Edit: Jeez. Way too wordy. My bad.

[EDS]

SIG? If so, your gearing should be fine. Usually there is a huge gap in abilities/strength/fitness, particularly at the beginning of the program, so hopefully things smooth out in your group.

[Cloozoe]

I've been on lots of early season team rides where we basically do this for new team members. And I have to say that there isn't a spring on the track when we don't do regulated-speed pacelines for extended warmup and use it to teach skills. Even riders who've been on trainers all winter or who just don't do that well even with years of practice are beneficiaries of the drills.

So, a few points.

First, nobody needs to be a jerk. If they are, talk back. Early season, everybody has some rough days.

Second, there are days when pacelines are just plain awful. The same group can look like a world championship time trial team on one day and the next week look like complete rubes. So give any paceline a chance.

Third, it only takes one or two riders to really discombobulate a whole paceline. If one rider is surging or slipping a bit, there's a chain reaction. Riders pop out of the line so they don't run into you, or they have to accelerate to catch your wheel again, and everybody is getting pissed.

Fourth, without an accurate speedometer/cyclometer on your bike, it's hard to play the game. Set a speed and distance, such as 3 miles at 18 mph, 3 miles at 20 mph, 3 miles at 23 mph, 2 miles at 25 mph, 2 miles at 28 mph, 2 miles at 30 mph. What usually happens is that the rider in front screws up and either surges off the front or suddenly is facing wind and slows down.

Fifth, when doing paceline drills, don't do speeds faster than everyone can handle easily. You can do escalating steps like described above, and riders will figure out when they start to get ragged and can work on it, and if a speed is simply too fast a rider can drop off while the others finish the run and then regroup.

Sixth, anybody can be tense when riding in close formation. In road paceline drills, you want to be passing back down the side with your knuckles within a few inches of the next rider. That means everyone needs to stay in line and not pop out and run into a rider coming back. You also don't want to hit brakes. Ever. Just ease on the pedaling and don't even stop pedaling, and you'll just drift slowly to a different pace if you find yourself closing on the wheel in front of you. You should be able to do this and never be more than a foot from the wheel in front of you, and properly half of that. If you have to close a gap, do it gently so the people behind you don't even notice what you've done.

Seventh, if you get tense, wiggle your toes, wiggle your fingers. That will make you relax on the bike and not tense up. Magic trick. And don't teach pacelines with aero bars. And don't get too low or too aggressive in position. You need to be relaxed and comfortable. If you're relaxed, the guy behind you will be relaxed, and that will carry all the way down the line.

Eighth, gear low. The guys who are trying to pull a 70 cadence in a bigger gear can't adjust speed and keep it as even as the guys riding comfortably in a 90-100 cadence.

Ninth, if you're having problems, get to the front, do your turn, then pull off and let them go. If you can't make it to the front, be sure nobody's coming back at you from their turn at the front and pull up smoothly with your last bit of pre-vomit energy and overlap the rider in front of you halfway. Wave the rider behind you up into that gap and you've covering them and getting them into position. On the track it's easy and intuitively obvious; on the road you have to figure out which side riders are coming off on, whether you have room on the curb side to exit, and so on. Do this sensibly. But don't just gap and then pull out. If you know you can't sustain a paceline pace, get to the front and come off from there. Then nobody else is discomfited.

Tenth, don't be drinking or eating in a practice paceline. That's what you do when the drill is over. You should be focused on being the smoothest cat on the road. Take a sip before the drill starts.

Eleventh, obviously have the whole line in agreement on what road hazards get called out, and how. Pacelines never communicate a pothole or glass in time and voices absolutely don't work. Save the lungs for when it's a real problem like a car, or whatever. The lead rider needs to be sure ALWAYS to signal the riders behind him to avoid parked cars, potholes, etc. And every rider behind the lead needs to be alert to what the riders in front are doing. Every now and then a team pursuit or team sprint on the track will take off, progress to the opposite side of the track, and officials will have messed up and not gotten the starting gate out of the way there. So two to four riders charge into a two-hundred pound piece of angle iron. It's not pretty. On the road, there are always parked cars, road furniture, etc. Everyone has a huge responsibility to the rest to communicate and to watch. And again, a yell doesn't work -- it won't be heard more than a couple riders back. To make all of this easier, don't do it on a course where there are already hazards to deal with. And I always like to make sure that everyone has ridden a warm-up on the stretch of road first just to know what's there.

Twelfth, always follow the wrists of the rider in front of you, not their rear wheel. If the wrists move to steer or to brake or just change position, you'll know before the rear wheel drifts back into you. Looking with glazed eyes at a rear wheel is the best way to clip wheels, and it's an addictive behavior when one is working hard on a line.

That's just the beginning. But understand that a really good (and really safe) paceline is a work of art and it involves a lot of concentration.

If someone was critiquing your gearing, they may have meant you were gearing too high for the speed, not that you had too small a chainring. See my point above. But it's also true that putting a paceline together for the first time in the spring is an exercise that makes passing a healthcare reform act look simple.

Edit: Jeez. Way too wordy. My bad.

Too wordy?! To this non paceliner cyclist it was a fascinating explanation. Thanks!

[brockd15]

I've never been a group rider so this is all really interesting. There's much more to it than it seems.

shovelhd, Ti Designs,
Once a rider gets to the front how long should a pull last before they peel off?

[FlashUNC]

All depends on what kind of paceline you're running. Nobody should be hanging there terribly long. And if you're gassed you won't have enough to jump back on the back as you rotate back.

Just don't be that jerk who pulls off at the bottom of an incline.

[djg21]

I'm turning to you guys with a bunch of pacelining experience on a query I got after Saturday's ride. The group is set to get everyone pacelining evenly over long distances. It's essentially a weeks long training program through the end of May. One comment was that maybe I was out of sync because of my gearing: a cx70 46/36 on the front with a 5800 11/28 on the rear. I didn't have any trouble holding speed or drafting. The problem was in my "smoothness."

OK. I can handle that feedback. I'm not really sure that was the problem, though. I think the "look" of my steel bike (a Black Mountain road) was more problematic, but I have no idea.

The whole thing was a bit of a Y-chromosome macho-disaster, imo --- lots of surging, bad line picks, poor communication, a group leader who could have toned it down. Mentally, I was out of it before the ride was half done. I kind of want to delete it from my strava. I think being out of it mentally was more of the issue here.

So you guys who have the experience with choice of gears, is the mid range on the 46-36 problematic? Should I solely be riding 53-39 on these rides? What could be the hurdles I'm facing? I've got extra cranks and rings here, so switching is relatively easy.

It's not the gearing per se. If you are surging at the front, you may want to try shifting into a larger gear, which will help you maintain a smoother more consistent speed without accelerating. The hardest part of the paceline should be getting on the back, and not pulling at the front.

Other than that, it may just be that you need to spend time more time riding in groups and working on group riding skills like looking way ahead, and not at the guy/gal in front of you or his/her wheel, etc.

[bikingshearer]

I've never been a group rider so this is all really interesting. There's much more to it than it seems.

shovelhd, Ti Designs,
Once a rider gets to the front how long should a pull last before they peel off?

This is coming from someone who stopped racing many years ago (and was never any good at it) but learned pacelining from some very good riders. I use such pacelining knowledge as I have occasionally on rides with friends and occasionally at the end of an event ride organizing whoever is straggling at the back like me. With that caveat . . .

It really is not hard as long as you can (1) hold your line and (2) hold your pace. In other words, don't wobble and don't surge-and-slack. The rest is details - important details (like not overlapping the wheel in front of you), but if you can do (1) and (2), you can pick up those details pretty quickly with common sense and a more experienced paceline rider giving you tips. If you can't do (1) and (2), you should not be in the paceline.

As for how long a pull, a lot depends on what kind of paceline it is. A line in a race is a different animal from a line in a training ride which is a different animal from a line of people trying to survive the last 15 miles of a century ride which is a different animal from a line in a club fun ride on a windy day.

In a racing line there are too many tactical considerations that I know nothing about for me to comment on.

For the others, how long a pull to take depends in my mind on two variables: how many people are in the line and how you feel relative to the others. For me, the optimum with two riders is maybe 30 seconds on the front and for eight or more riders you swing off as soon as the rider who swung off before you has cleared your rear wheel so you have the double-line going. For 3 to 7 riders, something between those two.

However, if you are feeling bad or you are noticeably weaker than everyone else, make all your pulls like the 8+ person line; pull off as soon as the previous leader clears your rear wheel. If you are the sheppard bringing the flock home at the end of a ride and feel noticeably better than everyone else, take longer pulls while making sure the others take normal or short pulls.

If you're a big guy like me and it's 17 miles of flatland headwind back to the barn, get used to the idea of spindly-legged climbing farts glued to your rear wheel as if their lives depended on it. :D

Others will no doubt have other thoughts on this, and I welcome them. But that's my admittedly non-competitive take.

[tylercheung]

it's interesting for me to read all this stuff too - my cycling is more of a personal experience so I don't like to race or do "training" group rides (although I will try and maintain a pace around a course for fitness). The few times I did a ride like that I got dropped, and felt totally fried and vomited once. I also have an allergic reaction to logos on lycra. But its interested to see how the dynamics and typical training group rides like this pan out.

But...on the risk of derailing this thread...post pics of the Black Mountain bike!

[Tickdoc]

I agree with peter. Smoothness helps, but gearing is irrelevant. I mean, you don't want to be like mr bean, but smoothness helps.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/b3/12/2b/b3122b084925fae53216459c4a3e8f1e.jpg

I'm curious how many paceline rides you have been on? It does take a while to get to know a group, but you should be able to jump on and maintain without disrupting the group....unless they are a hardcore bunch and don't take kindly to strangers.

I love it when a good group is in motion, and everyone is in sync, not just for the speed, but there is a certain zen aspect there that helps the miles fly by.

It took me a while to learn not to surge when my turn at the front came. Took a while to learn the proper safe distance to the guy in front, and the hand signals, and the list goes on, but most groups will help you if you ask. I don't pay attention to gearing, but I do think of smoothness in a pace group more than just tooling around solo.

Here's my group coming in at the end of a long days ride last year: ( I'm 2nd off the back)
https://i.imgur.com/7AOJftO.jpg( not my meme, btw)

[HenryA]

Lose that big group -- don't ride with them. Find four or five other like minded riders and figure out riding a paceline with those guys. Practice slow and easy in the beginning. Do everything right. Let speed come later.

[shovelhd]

Fantastic job, 11.4, all around. Especially the part about when you realize that you are in over your head, gas it for all you're worth and pull up next to the rider that was in front of you, which will naturally pull everyone behind you up to him/her. Then sit up, fall back, and catch your breath.

A couple things to add. Most of us don't paceline on the track, we ride on roads with traffic. Be conscious of the vehicle traffic, even if that means waiting a few more seconds to come off the front. It's much better to give the vehicle more room to pass the group. Also, I drink on my way back to the line, or on the back, unless I'm surrounded completely by riders I trust. Finally, when you are on the front, don't be "that guy" who rides away from the group without ever looking back. You have a responsibility on the front. You are leading the group. You should know the gap between your rear wheel and the front wheel of the rider behind you. You can use shadows on the road, or peek back under your shoulder. I use a bar end mirror. Check every 20-30 seconds.

Oh yeah, one more thing, how to skip a pull by hanging on the back. If you are capable of working in the group you are in, but you need a short break, maybe because someone surged and gapped you, there was an incline just after you came off the front and you had to go into the red to stay on, or it's getting towards the end and the speed is picking up...lots of good reasons to skip a pull. What you don't want to be is disruptive. To stay on the back of the group, watch for the rider pulling off the front. Then move left and slow a bit to open a gap in front of you. Signal to that rider to pull into the gap, then latch onto his wheel. Make sure the gap is big enough so that he/she isn't concerned about fitting into the space. You don't have to skip a full rotation, just as many riders as you need for your rest. It's also the way to get away from a rider you don't want to ride behind.

I've never been a group rider so this is all really interesting. There's much more to it than it seems.

shovelhd, Ti Designs,
Once a rider gets to the front how long should a pull last before they peel off?

There's really no answer to this question. It depends. I've done stints on the front of the A ride for 10-20 seconds, and I've pulled a B group for 20 miles when they were all out of gas from 6K+ of climbing. It just depends. The way to figure it out is look for the riders that know what they are doing, and do what they do. For a fast weekly ride that is advertised as fast, and groups riders by ability/speed/category, they should be short. Less than a minute. The object is to go fast not show off. For club rides it can be minutes or more. Also, there's nothing wrong with asserting yourself on a club ride when one rider is hogging the front. Just take the front away from him/her. They'll get the message. Or maybe not.

[Tandem Rider]

Oh yeah, one more thing, how to skip a pull by hanging on the back. If you are capable of working in the group you are in, but you need a short break, maybe because someone surged and gapped you, there was an incline just after you came off the front and you had to go into the red to stay on, or it's getting towards the end and the speed is picking up...lots of good reasons to skip a pull. What you don't want to be is disruptive. To stay on the back of the group, watch for the rider pulling off the front. Then move left and slow a bit to open a gap in front of you. Signal to that rider to pull into the gap, then latch onto his wheel. Make sure the gap is big enough so that he/she isn't concerned about fitting into the space. You don't have to skip a full rotation, just as many riders as you need for your rest. It's also the way to get away from a rider you don't want to ride behind.


Another smooth way to do this is while you are on the back, to slide over and get behind the rider dropping back just as his rear wheel lines up with the one you are already behind. Then follow him back until the next rider comes back, repeat. You are switching back and forth from one side to the other depending on which rider is farthest back, even if only by an inch, always sheltered. This always feels safer to me because your front wheel is more protected, there is no guessing if you are back far enough, being wrong and getting your wheel swept when everyone is gassed and judgments are poor.

[11.4]

And then there's the double paceline -- not where you're rotating in a loop but where you have two riders next to each other moving to the front and then peeling off on each side. It's a nice way to bring newcomers into a ride, because you can have conversations. But in this case, if you slip out of sync, you knock everyone else out of sync and disrupt a lot of conversations going on in the paceline. If it's a long ride on empty roads and you can use up more of the road without obstructing cars incessantly, this kind of paceline is very social and can be very fast.

[11.4]

I've never been a group rider so this is all really interesting. There's much more to it than it seems.

shovelhd, Ti Designs,
Once a rider gets to the front how long should a pull last before they peel off?

The faster the pace, the shorter the time at the front, generally speaking. If it's a conversational pace, you may spend a minute or longer at the front. If it's that conversational, it tends to devolve into a double paceline or simply a mob, because it's hard to talk when you're in single file. At the other end, when it really gets painful, you just emerge at the front and pull to the side. You give a windbreak to the guy who was right in front of you and is now moving back right behind you, and you'll have that same protection in just a second. The paceline is constantly revolving. Everybody is working hard just to keep the pace super high getting up to the front. You almost always have a draft but you don't have a case where one rider is leading the line for a substantial period. It's a beautiful thing to watch when this kind of line is moving well. It's incredibly fast and you find you're dealing more with the sheer speed of it than with whether you can handle the wind.

[FL_MarkD]

Good discussion and inputs.

I always like to remember the 4 S of pacelines: Steady, Safe, Strong, and Smiling

If the riders are all of those, you have a great group.

[carpediemracing]

Although not for a new rider to pacelines, overlapping wheels is often the most efficient way to draft another rider. With some low speed wheel touching drills it's possible to learn to handle some light to somewhat-significant front wheel touches without falling.

The faster the paceline is going the more important drafting is as far as saving energy. The more important drafting is the closer you have to be to the next rider. With even a small amount of lateral wind aka "crosswind" you'll need to move to one side or another of the rider in front of you.

Again, this is not for a rider new to riding in a paceline.

[Ti Designs]

Another smooth way to do this is while you are on the back, to slide over and get behind the rider dropping back just as his rear wheel lines up with the one you are already behind. Then follow him back until the next rider comes back, repeat. You are switching back and forth from one side to the other depending on which rider is farthest back, even if only by an inch, always sheltered. This always feels safer to me because your front wheel is more protected, there is no guessing if you are back far enough, being wrong and getting your wheel swept when everyone is gassed and judgments are poor.


This is known as ticket punching. you pick up the wheel coming back, stay just off to the side so when they're looking for that last wheel they don't even see you. If you're good at it you can ticket punch all day long and they hardly know you're there. TR also makes a very good point about safety, when you pick up a wheel you have control over the gap. Riders getting back on are known to do whatever it takes to reaccelerate...

This brings me to a high tech device I keep on my bike to tell resulting wind direction. When drafting your goal is to be in the slipstream of the rider you're drafting, but that slipstream isn't always straight ahead. If you're going 20 MPH and there's a 20 MPH side wind, you want the rider you're drafting to be at a 45 degree angle to you. My high tech device senses wind direction as well as my own direction and velocity, and displays the resulting wind direction - that's what you're really looking for shelter from. The high tech device is often mistaken for a piece of yarn attached to my handlebars...

[tctyres]

Tons of great info all around.
Regarding fit: I sent Mike Varley my competitive cyclist numbers, and he gave me the best fit via cad. I've adjusted things up and down, but come back to close to the original numbers. (The bike is in the production bikes thread.)
Regarding experience: I'd say this is like my 10th paceline ride in 3 years. I really learned the basics two summers ago, but I found it frustrating and boring. I went off grid and did a whole bunch of solo stuff including a ton of centuries, touring, and double metric randonees. I get by on a bike.

I like going fast. To go faster, I need a paceline. It seems like a good paceline is hard to find this time of year, so I need to ease up and roll with the punches here.

None of these guys are going to drop me on these rides, at least not yet. I even doubt that it would be possible to drop me on a drop ride.

It sounds like what I need to do is just pin my wheel on the guy in front of me and not worry about the surge off the front. When I lead, keep the pace. Slow or increase on down/uphills. Focus on keeping it smooth.

[Bob Ross]

I'm not sure whether I should keep the wheel or the "feel." I'm trying to keep the effort the same.

You're talking about an NYCC A-Classic SIG ride, right? ...definitely keep the feel.

And then tell them I said so. :banana:

[tctyres]

Oh, that Bob Ross :hello:

[carpediemracing]

Also, regarding gears.... In a race a while ago my front der cable stop broke, effectively shifting me into the 39T for the rest of the race. I used just two gears, 39x11, 39x12, equal to 53x15 and 53x16, and most of the time I was in the 12 because the chain hitting the chainring in the 39x11 drives me batty.

Nonetheless, although I couldn't go with the break or the chase, I decisively won the field sprint.

I was much, much smoother with the lower gears. I was racing like I was going to get shelled the next lap, so not really trying to save energy etc. I had to adapt my tactics for the lower gears (and realized real quick why Juniors have to go so early in a sprint), but the race went pretty well overall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu7i5N0ef5I

[tctyres]

I want to bump this because the program was 2 months. I completed it, learned a lot, and made some new friends. These pacelines are like friendly racing lines. I feel a lot more confident in my riding and ability to ride a few inches from wheel in front of me.

I think the comment on good pacelines being hard to find in March is true. By May, the pacelines were smooth, clean, and easy to understand. They were plug-and-play among the 20-30 riders who completed the program. If something was funny - a chain dropped, a flat, or a water bottle jumped - the paceline would break in sync, safely. It was neat to experience this transformation. I could go out with any one of them today and have a fun clean ride.

The people with fitness problems or who lacked a group mentality got cut. You need to pay attention to who is around you, how they are riding, and how they are doing both mentally and physically. Some people just weren't OK with a group. Some people were just not fit enough, and it was dragging the group down. I've done some laps in Central Park since with different groups, and it just becomes a "smh" experience. Going fast with skills is more fun than bludgeoning through speed with no skills. Predictability on the line helps everyone.

Several of the group leaders were very, very good at teaching. I had the benefit of one week where two group leaders put a lot of effort into my riding. One accused me of being inconsistent. I said that I probably was and was confused as to how to pull. When I rotated back to the front, he got on my wheel and coached me through a pull. It was very informative. I could figure out the feel from that. Another coached me on how to pull the group over a hill and accelerate down --- also very informative.

By the end of the program, "the feel" was good, but there was also a need for speed --- through rollers, on flat racy segments, and just to have fun. For those times, a speedometer was essential. (Others can disagree, but I think a speedometer is always essential. A power meter is good too, especially if someone in the group could call out too much or not enough).

Overall, I'm glad I stuck with it. I've never wanted to race, but now I see the appeal of speed and skills.

Thanks to all you here who commented and had constructive things to say. It is appreciated. :beer:

Edit: And I did the program on a 46/36 with 11-28 in the back -- no problems, but that 46 doesn't have the gear inches I need to go faster :)