Do frame builders get depressed

[mjb266]

So for those of you who have been to the classifieds section today there is a heads up for an auction in which a pristine 1985 Sachs (atmo) is for sale. I was looking at this thing wondering how anyone keeps a bike in this condition for 20 years. Then I started wondering what people like Sachs, Kellog, Kirk, Serotta, etc. think when they find that a creation of theirs looks like that after 20+ years.

Repainting aside, do you guys think that a frame builder gains more satisfaction from:

A. seeing a bike of theirs that gets ridden so much that it loses the gloss and has scratches from being out and about. Maybe they like replacing a tube in a bike that went down in a race, knowing that it was being used the way it was designed.

or

B. seeing a bike of theirs that is so cherished that it rarely gets ridden.

I can see both being rewarding from a builders perspective. I see Kellog racing and beating ht eheck out of his machine and local riders and I see Sachs out at the cross races and knowing he rides I can imagine he likes to see his bikes ridden...then again I seem to remember he has a few Masi's hanging around.

[zank]

I would be bummed if a bike I built didn't get ridden much. I rode mine in the pouring rain for 3 hours yesterday. Why wouldn't somebody else want to?

[dbrk]

I don't build the frames though I have a hand in custom design and sale. For me, it's just nice when people enjoy them. But whether they ride them hard or hang them on the wall could matter less to me. While bikes are great for riding I'm long past the notion that riding is the only way to love them. Craft, function, art, fun, passion, all or some or any one of these reasons is reason enough.

dbrk

[saab2000]

I once owned a bike built by DWF, an occasional poster here who is well known in the frame building world for the tooling he makes. He makes a mean bike himself and is an expert welder.

Mine had S&S couplers. I know he got depressed by my incessant over analysis of the bike (shut up and ride.....) but once I visited him and my bike had some pretty deep gouges in the tubes from having been poorly packed in the S&S suitcase. It was my fault. I don't think he was too happy with that either and I felt kind of bad about it.

But maybe the worst thing I did was to overtighten the front der clamp, putting some deformation in the seattube.

It was not 'til I sold the bike and got some others that I realised how good a bike it was. It was still too big for me and I had to sell it, but it was a good bike and I abused it with my hamfistedness and I am sure he did not like that.

[swoop]

all bikes don't come into their own until they are ridden. the more that is asked of them the more they fulfill their bike-ness.
a builder has a special perspective, they know that it isn't the bike... it's the gestalt.

that being said.. no one builds a bike unless they have a depressive orientation.
word to the mother.

[mjb266]

I was thinking more on this and started thinking specifically about some of the most beautifully crafted bikes I've seen. The Vanilla http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=19315
is designed to be ridden. That does not mean that it could not end up sitting on my wall as I think it is amazing. There are bikes that are designed to be show pieces and many of them end up at Interbike. When a custom builder starts the design process they take into consideration how the bike is going to be used. If the buyer says, "I'm going to hang it on the wall" how would the builder respond. Would they consider tubing used and geometry.

To spend so much time creating something that is functional art and then have it just art...I would think some would be depressed. This could be true for the custom carbon builders as well.

[SoCalSteve]

I was thinking more on this and started thinking specifically about some of the most beautifully crafted bikes I've seen. The Vanilla http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=19315
is designed to be ridden. That does not mean that it could not end up sitting on my wall as I think it is amazing. There are bikes that are designed to be show pieces and many of them end up at Interbike. When a custom builder starts the design process they take into consideration how the bike is going to be used. If the buyer says, "I'm going to hang it on the wall" how would the builder respond. Would they consider tubing used and geometry.

To spend so much time creating something that is functional art and then have it just art...I would think some would be depressed. This could be true for the custom carbon builders as well.

I'm no frame builder (nor do I play one on TV) but, in my opinion:

Form Follows Function

A bike is meant to be ridden, plain and simple. If it is a thing of beauty as well, all the better...

Steve

[fiamme red]

So for those of you who have been to the classifieds section today there is a heads up for an auction in which a pristine 1985 Sachs (atmo) is for sale. I was looking at this thing wondering how anyone keeps a bike in this condition for 20 years. Then I started wondering what people like Sachs, Kellog, Kirk, Serotta, etc. think when they find that a creation of theirs looks like that after 20+ years.I'd be very surprised if e-RICHIE got depressed if some of his frames were never ridden, never even built up, just hung on the wall to be admired. After all, he's done exactly that with his Masis and Nagasawa.

[zank]

that being said.. no one builds a bike unless they have a depressive orientation.
word to the mother.

I disgaree. It's when the business does not allow them to ride much is when builders get depressed. I know plenty of jolly builders. I would like to think I am a pretty happy guy.

[Bradford]

Hey Zank,

Does it depress you when you take so much time to craft a perfect bike and then some 7 foot ogre takes it away and rides it through fields and mud screaming BAWOOOOOOOOOOO! :D

[zank]

It actually makes me giggle like a schoolgirl.

[dbrk]

Form Follows Function
A bike is meant to be ridden, plain and simple. If it is a thing of beauty as well, all the better...Steve

Of course bikes are designed to be ridden if they are bikes. But they are not less bikes nor, to some, less enjoyable if they are never ridden. Function arguments notwithstanding, why is it too much to let others just own what they like for whatever reasons they see fit? To wit, I now own my father's watch. I never use it and have no plans on using it. It's not less a watch (and it functions just fine) and it's no less enjoyable to me because I don't "use" it as a watch. Bikes are just objects and what we do with them does not define them.

dbrk

p.s. actually heading out on a ride now!! on a bike! what a thought!

[mjb266]

dbrk, I understand your argument, I am just wondering if the watch maker or frame builder get depressed/disapointed with the application of their craftsmanship. I agree on your perspective of the owner/user.

[taz-t]

Of course bikes are designed to be ridden if they are bikes. But they are not less bikes nor, to some, less enjoyable if they are never ridden. Function arguments notwithstanding, why is it too much to let others just own what they like for whatever reasons they see fit? To wit, I now own my father's watch. I never use it and have no plans on using it. It's not less a watch (and it functions just fine) and it's no less enjoyable to me because I don't "use" it as a watch. Bikes are just objects and what we do with them does not define them.

dbrk

p.s. actually heading out on a ride now!! on a bike! what a thought!

ahhh... but would the watch have more or less meaning to you if your father hadn't wore it? What if he just bought it (no passing down from his father) and kept it in a box and then gave it to you?

Not riding the bike may not take anything away from it, but does riding the bike add something ?

- taz

[atmo]

framebuilders, i have always thought - and said - answer to
a higher calling. if they didn't, they'd be more in tune with
the market, more apt to worry about trends, concerned with
a time clock, or with building an ira. framebuilders live outside
the lines. the reason they do what they do is because the
conventional industry cannot; too many layers of corporate
this or model year that, etcetera. are you feeling me atmo?

when you come in to work and your only, or more aptly put,
your primary concern is to improve on what you did last week,
the only thing that matters is that you try to improve and that
you believe you have improved - that is, until next week comes.

it is not an easy thing to articulate, because at the end of the day,
bicycles are seen as commodities. however, most start as a pile
of stuff. often it's the same pile of stuff that the factories use.
so what's the difference? the framebuilders i know, and the ones
i don't know but fantasize about, all believe that they can somehow
add something to the pile that cannot be included by 100 people
on 2nd shift at the yournamehere factory. yeah - i can see a few
heads nodding and thinking that this cat is deluded.

i'd agree. i know i suffer from this delusion. but i have no boss
to worry about, and most framebuilders are their own boss. let me
cut to the chase - framebuilders build frames to build frames.
if they finally perfect the gig, there'd be no effin' reason in the
world to come in and continue. to a man, the primary task of all
the framebuilders i know is to improve, and not to remain the status
quo yo.

does a framebuilder get depressed if the frame isn't used? despite
reading some of the above, i hardly doubt it. i believe all that matters
is that he believed he did his best job to fill the order, and would
do his same best job even if the frame were to be destroyed once
it was completed. to have this mindset, one must remain detatched
from everything except the pile of stuff on the bench. that is where
the energy is focused, rather than what happens after the frame
leaves his hands.

all this said, all of us do try, and we all hope the client gets it. whether
the bicycle is used or not, if we believe the client doesn't get it, it doesn't
matter how many miles are logged.

[oracle]

Bikes are just objects and what we do with them does not define them.


i would be curious to know what it is that you think does define them..

ciao,

oracle


p.s. have a great ride.....

[pdxmech13]

I get it yo !

[coylifut]

,


all this said, all of us do try, and we all hope the client gets it. whether
the bicycle is used or not, if we believe the client doesn't get it, it doesn't
matter how many miles are logged.

Does "getting it" mean an appreciation for the builder's effort to improve the craft?

[atmo]

Does "getting it" mean an appreciation for the builder's effort to improve the craft?

not really, though it could.

atmo what i meant was if the builder tried his all
and ultimately believed that it was lost on the client,
whatever the it happens to be, then - yes, all the
miles and use that are part of this thread would
not matter.

and not to start a downward spiral, but if the it that
the builder gives and the it that the client gets are two
different its, well that's a separate thread than this.

[shinomaster]

framebuilders, i have always thought - and said - answer to
a higher calling. if they didn't, they'd be more in tune with
the market, more apt to worry about trends, concerned with
a time clock, or with building an ira. framebuilders live outside
the lines. the reason they do what they do is because the
conventional industry cannot; too many layers of corporate
this or model year that, etcetera. are you feeling me atmo?

when you come in to work and your only, or more aptly put,
your primary concern is to improve on what you did last week,
the only thing that matters is that you try to improve and that
you believe you have improved - that is, until next week comes.

it is not an easy thing to articulate, because at the end of the day,
bicycles are seen as commodities. however, most start as a pile
of stuff. often it's the same pile of stuff that the factories use.
so what's the difference? the framebuilders i know, and the ones
i don't know but fantasize about, all believe that they can somehow
add something to the pile that cannot be included by 100 people
on 2nd shift at the yournamehere factory. yeah - i can see a few
heads nodding and thinking that this cat is deluded.

i'd agree. i know i suffer from this delusion. but i have no boss
to worry about, and most framebuilders are their own boss. let me
cut to the chase - framebuilders build frames to build frames.
if they finally perfect the gig, there'd be no effin' reason in the
world to come in and continue. to a man, the primary task of all
the framebuilders i know is to improve, and not to remain the status
quo yo.

does a framebuilder get depressed if the frame isn't used? despite
reading some of the above, i hardly doubt it. i believe all that matters
is that he believed he did his best job to fill the order, and would
do his same best job even if the frame were to be destroyed once
it was completed. to have this mindset, one must remain detatched
from everything except the pile of stuff on the bench. that is where
the energy is focused, rather than what happens after the frame
leaves his hands.

all this said, all of us do try, and we all hope the client gets it. whether
the bicycle is used or not, if we believe the client doesn't get it, it doesn't
matter how many miles are logged.

ATMO...that is exactly how I feel about making coffee cups..I am my biggest fan, and critic.

[coylifut]

not really, though it could.

atmo what i meant was if the builder tried his all
and ultimately believed that it was lost on the client,
whatever the it happens to be, then - yes, all the
miles and use that are part of this thread would
not matter.

and not to start a downward spiral, but if the it that
the builder gives and the it that the client gets are two
different its, well that's a separate thread than this.


I think I get it. it would be like giving it his "all" and having that effort and expertise reduced to the question "how much does it weigh?"

[atmo]

I think I get it. it would be like giving it his "all" and having that effort and expertise reduced to the question "how much does it weigh?"
i guess that would work as an example.
atmo, my feelings about it are more ephemeral. my woodworking
friends often dismiss a near-miss as some trees just don't want
to be bookcases, or similar. i am at a loss as to how to translate
this into a framebuilder/client/get it analogy.

[mjb266]

Am I taking this the wrong way?

framebuilders, i have always thought - and said - answer to
a higher calling. if they didn't, they'd be more in tune with
the market, more apt to worry about trends, concerned with
a time clock, or with building an ira. framebuilders live outside
the lines. the reason they do what they do is because the
conventional industry cannot; too many layers of corporate
this or model year that, etcetera. are you feeling me atmo?

when you come in to work and your only, or more aptly put,
your primary concern is to improve on what you did last week,
the only thing that matters is that you try to improve and that
you believe you have improved - that is, until next week comes.

it is not an easy thing to articulate, because at the end of the day,
bicycles are seen as commodities. however, most start as a pile
of stuff. often it's the same pile of stuff that the factories use.
so what's the difference? the framebuilders i know, and the ones
i don't know but fantasize about, all believe that they can somehow
add something to the pile that cannot be included by 100 people
on 2nd shift at the yournamehere factory. yeah - i can see a few
heads nodding and thinking that this cat is deluded.

i'd agree. i know i suffer from this delusion. but i have no boss
to worry about, and most framebuilders are their own boss. let me
cut to the chase - framebuilders build frames to build frames.
if they finally perfect the gig, there'd be no effin' reason in the
world to come in and continue. to a man, the primary task of all
the framebuilders i know is to improve, and not to remain the status
quo yo.

does a framebuilder get depressed if the frame isn't used? despite
reading some of the above, i hardly doubt it. i believe all that matters
is that he believed he did his best job to fill the order, and would
do his same best job even if the frame were to be destroyed once
it was completed. to have this mindset, one must remain detatched
from everything except the pile of stuff on the bench. that is where
the energy is focused, rather than what happens after the frame
leaves his hands.

all this said, all of us do try, and we all hope the client gets it. whether
the bicycle is used or not, if we believe the client doesn't get it, it doesn't
matter how many miles are logged.

[atmo]

Am I taking this the wrong way?
that would only work in a jil sander outfit atmo.

[shinomaster]

Some people just "get" or understand, things, like an abstract painting, Iga vase, coffee cup or bicycle frame. A person, like my ceramics teacher, or myself, may view a coffee cup as a small sculpture, that has to serve a function and feel comfortable, and look attractive, and be balanced. Some people get this too, while others just drink coffee out of it while making no observations or thinking about what it is they are holding. For them a factory mug from Starbucks may be fine. I have been trying to make the perfect handle for over 17 years.

[Ken Robb]

I hope you all enjoyed Mr. Sachs' responses as much as I did. When Leslie and I were in the Finger Lakes last month I was so thrilled with the ride of my borrowed Sachs I tried to call Richie at a refreshment stop along the Erie Canal. No luck getting through then but I did call him later.

He was obviously very pleased to hear how much I enjoyed his creation and we talked longer than I expected in the middle of his work day. I was on vacation and he obviously wasn't watching the clock. During our conversation I definitely got the impression that he was convinced that he still felt that his craft was improving and that, as good as the bike I rode is, his next one will be better.

It was all very consistent with his comments above. No BS.

[oracle]

Some people just "get" or understand, things, like an abstract painting, Iga vase, coffee cup or bicycle frame. A person, like my ceramics teacher, or myself, may view a coffee cup as a small sculpture, that has to serve a function and feel comfortable, and look attractive, and be balanced. Some people get this too, while others just drink coffee out of it while making no observations or thinking about what it is they are holding. For them a factory mug from Starbucks may be fine. I have been trying to make the perfect handle for over 17 years.


do you (and i pose the Q to atmo as well) feel that this "getting" of "it" is somehow innate, or the product of experience and or education? both?

[mjb266]

This has to be an education/experience thing as many of my friends couldn't tell the difference between a Huffy and a custom build other than the color. The appreciation is developed and refined and I'd claim the same goes for beers, wines, bicycles, boats, shoes, clothing, etc.

[atmo]

do you (and i pose the Q to atmo as well) feel that this "getting" of "it" is somehow innate, or the product of experience and or education? both?
everything is a product of innate-ness, experience, and education. how can you separate it out.

otoh, i am a consumer of many commodities
and a client for only some atmo. we each
have our own bounderies wrt what we let in -
what we see and what we feel. looking and
touching are different than seeing and feeling.

[catulle]

Hey, I swear, I get it...!!!!. So, please, please build me a bike before I die. Pretty please......

[johnmdesigner]

Some people just "get" or understand, things, like an abstract painting, Iga vase, coffee cup or bicycle frame. A person, like my ceramics teacher, or myself, may view a coffee cup as a small sculpture, that has to serve a function and feel comfortable, and look attractive, and be balanced. Some people get this too, while others just drink coffee out of it while making no observations or thinking about what it is they are holding. For them a factory mug from Starbucks may be fine. I have been trying to make the perfect handle for over 17 years.

The biggest part of "getting it" is learning how to be a good observer. Once you really begin to pay attention to the qualities of an object or an idea you realize that these qualities are present in all things be it food, watches, bicycle frames, etc. With time and study you will understand the qualities that great works possess and realize that the greatest embody the spirit of their creator. :rolleyes:

[shinomaster]

I would say in this order-- innate, education, and a desire to care.

[Kirk Pacenti]

ATMO...that is exactly how I feel about making coffee cups..I am my biggest fan, and critic.

Shino,

I get it. And would be happy to relieve you of any coffee cups you feel fell short of the mark.

If it were up to me (which it is not) I would eat and drink off nothing but hand made earthenware like yours. I love that shet. ;)

[atmo]

Hey, I swear, I get it...!!!!. So, please, please build me a bike before I die. Pretty please......
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[swoop]

Q: if a builder falls over in the woods and there is no one around to hear it. does the builder make a sound?

A: there is a sound but it takes a year to hear it. bty are you on the waiting list? make that two years.

i'll be here all week.

[oracle]

everything is a product of innate-ness, experience, and education. how can you separate it out.

otoh, i am a consumer of many commodities
and a client for only some atmo. we each
have our own bounderies wrt what we let in -
what we see and what we feel. looking and
touching are different than seeing and feeling.


how? i don't think you ultimately can , but i guess that's what i'm curious about. how would you weight the trifecta, if you will?

p.s. that post-dash bit is a nice quote, btw

[atmo]

how? i don't think you ultimately can , but i guess that's what i'm curious about. how would you weight the trifecta, if you will?

p.s. that post-dash bit is a nice quote, btw


innate-ness, followed by a double dose of sensibility.


p.s. thanks. t-shirt material atmo!

[wasfast]

I buile custom electric bass guitars for many years. Custom anything seems to follow what ritchie said. You live in your little universe in the shop, making the item in a 1 on 1 fashion. There's obviously interaction with the customer but ultimately, you and the materials.

It seems different from the customer side of things. They seem to have this glazed look of wonder at you making their creations, waiting for the moment when you pour "the magic" into the item and build the current ultimate bike/guitar/knife/whatever.

People buy bikes for many different reasons. For some, it's flavor of the month and they sell it for the next thing in no time. Others keep it for a lifetime. There is no "wrong" customer in this regard, just different styles.

It never really bothered me to see a customer sell an instrument, mostly because I knew that there were plenty more waiting for theirs anyway. Once it left the shop and was paid for, they can do as they please.

I only had one guy that really pissed me off (and that takes some doing). The type that really doesn't know what he wants and is constantly changing his mind along the way. Then, once he got what he asked for, he didn't like this, didn't like that....hey, it's what you asked for! I would have gladly refunded his money just to shut him up. He sold the instrument a year later and the guy that has it now (who owns 10 of my instruments) says it's the best of the bunch. Different strokes.

[atmo]

btw, i posted this to the framebuilder list.
it'll be interesting to see what happens with
this over there.

http://search.bikelist.org/query.asp?SearchString=&FMMod=-1w&FMModDate=&SortBy=MsgDate%5Ba%5D&Scope=framebuilders&RecordsPerPage=250

[TimD]

Twenty-five mile easy spin today. Seventy degrees under a sky of unbelievable blue.

Stop at Peet's for an iced coffee with 'secret recovery additive' (chocolate sauce).

Notice a high-zoot Seven Elium SG leaning up against the window. D-A 10, Ksyrium ES, Look Keo Carbon, a Selle San Marco red carbon saddle that looked like it might have fallen off a B-2, or maybe an F1 car, and a frame pump so nicely matched to the top tube I almost didn't see it.

No rider in sight.

After a few minutes of me ogling this thing a youngish man in street clothes sitting on the other (inside) side of the window looks up from his laptop, turns down his iPod, and gives a small wave and nod that could only be interpreted as "Yeah, that's mine."

Poll: Does he get it?

[JasonF]

For me, it's just nice when people enjoy them. But whether they ride them hard or hang them on the wall could matter less to me. While bikes are great for riding I'm long past the notion that riding is the only way to love them. Craft, function, art, fun, passion, all or some or any one of these reasons is reason enough.

dbrk

Very well put.

[martianbait]

Twenty-five mile easy spin today. Seventy degrees under a sky of unbelievable blue.

Stop at Peet's for an iced coffee with 'secret recovery additive' (chocolate sauce).

Notice a high-zoot Seven Elium SG leaning up against the window. D-A 10, Ksyrium ES, Look Keo Carbon, a Selle San Marco red carbon saddle that looked like it might have fallen off a B-2, or maybe an F1 car, and a frame pump so nicely matched to the top tube I almost didn't see it.

No rider in sight.

After a few minutes of me ogling this thing a youngish man in street clothes sitting on the other (inside) side of the window looks up from his laptop, turns down his iPod, and gives a small wave and nod that could only be interpreted as "Yeah, that's mine."

Poll: Does he get it?

Only in his mind.

Does he want to get it the way everyone else thinks he should get it? Likely not.

Do I think he gets it? No. He's a moron. :D

[SoCalSteve]

ahhh... but would the watch have more or less meaning to you if your father hadn't wore it? What if he just bought it (no passing down from his father) and kept it in a box and then gave it to you?

Not riding the bike may not take anything away from it, but does riding the bike add something ?
- taz

Good question...

In my case, yes.

[atmo]

but what about art?

good point -
i could not go to there and just look at a pastrami on rye. i would
have to eat it. at art's, every sandwich is a work of art atmo.

[SoCalSteve]

good point -
i could not go to there and just look at a pastrami on rye. i would
have to eat it. at art's, every sandwich is a work of art atmo.

Is every Richard Sachs frame a work of art? If so, must it be ridden?

Hey, RS, how far back in the archives did you have to go to find my posting about art?

Offer still stands, you come to LA, the pastrami sandwichs are on me! And, if pastrami really is your passion, I know a GREAT place downtown. Not a great part of town, but a great pastrami sandwich!

http://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide-2811143-langer_s_deli_los_angeles-i

[atmo]

Is every Richard Sachs frame a work of art? If so, must it be ridden?


depends on the appetite atmo?

[catulle]

A pastrami sandwich...?? Don't listen to him, e-RICHIE, I'm real tight with Paris H, so you build my bike quick and we can talk. She'd do anything I ask her to. Pastrami...? She's more like chicken breast, atmo; and no cholesterol either. I know she'd break her silly fast if I ask her to. What you say, dude?

[shinomaster]

Shino,

I get it. And would be happy to relieve you of any coffee cups you feel fell short of the mark.

If it were up to me (which it is not) I would eat and drink off nothing but hand made earthenware like yours. I love that shet. ;)

Kirk I'm flattered...What If I traded pottery for lugs, could I get Sacha to build me a new frame with my own lugs? No, probably not..

[atmo]

So for those of you who have been to the classifieds section today there is a heads up for an auction in which a pristine 1985 Sachs (atmo) is for sale. I was looking at this thing wondering how anyone keeps a bike in this condition for 20 years. <cut>

irony of ironies.
it took me until 5pm est to ascertain that this ebay bicycle
was the one i suspected it was. despite the text, the beautiful
pics, and the excellant condition, this bicycle was also auctioned
less than 3 weeks ago by the original owner - and he was an
RS team guy in the 80s.

it is true that this particular rig was built for a window display in
conjunction with a stage race we were doing that year, but the
original owner bought it once the race ended and the display
was disassembled.

the bicycle is well used and i assure you it was well appreciated
all these years. the old RS team mate is a career alpine ski coach (http://www.harbskisystems.com/)
and well published author and instructor. he even had a hand in
developing the ski career of a famous cycling twin. (http://www.roadcycling.com/artman/uploads/tourdefrance_tyler_hamilton_back_injury.jpg)

while none of this changes what i posted earlier wrt the thread
itself, it does make me wonder if the thread would have existed
if the full-er true story was known first atmo.



edit - that auction (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280016147061)

[David Kirk]

As usual I'm coming a bit late to the party but I'll throw in my two cents in regards to the original question anyway.

Do I get bummed when I see one of my frames out there for sale? I'd be a liar if I said no. I'd like to think that they all stay with the person that they were built for forever. But the reality is that folks change....thier bike needs and desires change,.....heck maybe they just get bored with what they have so they sell it and move on. I do the same thing with some stuff in my life. Why should it be any different for anyone else? So in the big scheme of things I don't get too bummed as long as the owner enjoyed his/her time with the bike.

As for the motivations of a builder........I'd guess that there are as many different motivations as there are builders. I know that in all my Serotta years and since I've been my own harshest critic and I do lots of things to please myself. The owner/rider will never know about them, but I do. It's the "heart and soul" part of the deal. They may or may not result in a feelable difference to the rider but I know they are there and that they matter to me. It's what gets me up in the morning and what keeps me at the bench all day.

There is a challenge to the whole thing. Can I do a better job today than I did yesterday? What can I learn today? After many years and many bikes the changes are very small and come very slowly but they are there and I take pride in them.

I think it makes a difference.

Dave

[catulle]

e-RICHIE..? Er, she's calling, atmo... Get it...?

[Grant McLean]

When I ride my RichardSachs to the grocery store, the food tastes better.
Someday, someone will finally have to pry it from my cold, dead hands.

g

[dirtdigger88]

hey Dave-

My Kirk is filthy- it has several scratches that I can't account for- and several more that I CAN account for-

Ive had it in the mud and the crud- Ive blown snot rockets on the top tube and ridden over/on/through some crap that most people would never think of taking their MTBs over-

I hope THAT doesnt bum you out- because Im having the time of my life on it-

Will you (or anyone) ever see my kirk on ebay- H*LL NO!!!!!

Im going to be burried with it- if I have my way- though my 2 year old claims the bike is HIS- ;)

just lettin ya know-

Jason

[SoCalSteve]

e-RICHIE..? Er, she's calling, atmo... Get it...?

[atmo]

e-RICHIE..? Er, she's calling, atmo... Get it...?
i could just plotz atmo.

[J.Greene]

I recently saw the second ever completed frame from an extreemly well thought of frame builder. The frame was obviously built by someone who at the time was not even a good self taught hobbiest. The guy now is an incredible craftsmen. I have wondered if this guy would prefer if this frame would just disapear or stay out of sight. I personally think it is like looking at the past and don't hold it against the guy. But I wonder what he feels.

JG

[catulle]

As usual I'm coming a bit late to the party but I'll throw in my two cents in regards to the original question anyway.

Do I get bummed when I see one of my frames out there for sale? I'd be a liar if I said no. I'd like to think that they all stay with the person that they were built for forever. But the reality is that folks change....thier bike needs and desires change,.....heck maybe they just get bored with what they have so they sell it and move on. I do the same thing with some stuff in my life. Why should it be any different for anyone else? So in the big scheme of things I don't get too bummed as long as the owner enjoyed his/her time with the bike.

As for the motivations of a builder........I'd guess that there are as many different motivations as there are builders. I know that in all my Serotta years and since I've been my own harshest critic and I do lots of things to please myself. The owner/rider will never know about them, but I do. It's the "heart and soul" part of the deal. They may or may not result in a feelable difference to the rider but I know they are there and that they matter to me. It's what gets me up in the morning and what keeps me at the bench all day.

There is a challenge to the whole thing. Can I do a better job today than I did yesterday? What can I learn today? After many years and many bikes the changes are very small and come very slowly but they are there and I take pride in them.

I think it makes a difference.

Dave

I don't wanna get touchy-feely here, but what you guys are doing is a teen-ager's wet dream, atmo. To do what you guys do takes talent and vocation, but more importantly it takes courage and the ability to dream. And the only way you can succeed in your field is with integrity, honesty, and work ethic. You guys are like a non-smoking Marlboro man, roaming on the praire on a steed with a front wheel of dreams and a rear wheel of feeling. I won't ever sell the frame you're making for me. I couldn't if I wanted to. My daughter wouldn't let me. She says she wants all my things to remember me by when I die. She better marry someone I like, atmo.

And you ATMO, I don't care what you say but I get it, so go back to the torch and finish my frame soon...!!

[Big Dan]

Yo, burgers are good too........... :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pkz4wH9-0Bs

[stevep]

the only time i have seen e-richie cry was when he watched fruthrsunu riding one of his bikes...
" faster, faster..." yelled sachs...
"does not go any faster..." yelled back frytsthunun.." needs to be easier to pedal..."
was crying myself at the time. could not bear to watch.

[catulle]

e-RICHIE..? Er, she's calling, atmo... Get it...?

Izzat a latin Paris, atmo...? A latin Paris on rye...?

[atmo]

Izzat a latin Paris, atmo...? A latin Paris on rye...?
hold the latin paris on rye atmo.
you have my permission.
just get a kodak moment for the rest of us.

[gt6267a]

e-RICHIE..? Er, she's calling, atmo... Get it...?


i have not had pastrami in LA, but you've got me thinking about the deli meats at katz's in nyc. the pastrami is cut a little thicker and is nice and fatty. ohhh, this thread is going to cost me about 400 on a flight but it will be so worth it.

[atmo]

i have not had pastrami in LA, but you've got me thinking about the deli meats at katz's in nyc. the pastrami is cut a little thicker and is nice and fatty. ohhh, this thread is going to cost me about 400 on a flight but it will be so worth it.


i used to like zookey's on third ave in the
grammercy park area. is it still there atmo?

[Climb01742]

there are, i believe, many "it"s to be gotten from anything that is created.

a chef creates a dish. two diners plunge their respective forks in. in each of their mouths, different "it"s are gotten.

in my own experience, i've written TV spots where i thought i knew, clearly and simply, what i was trying to say. then other folks watched it and got completely different "it"s. sometimes what they got out of it was crazy, and was much more about what was going on inside them than what was going on inside the commercial. but there have been times when people have interpreted things i've created totally differently but equally validly. i hear their take, look at the spot and go "uh", that_is_in there but i didn't realize that it was in there.

creations are examples, i think, of the heisenberg uncertainty principle. the viewer changes the creation, even ever so slightly, by viewing it, by interacting with it. there is no creation in a vacuum. there is no TV spot without a TV viewer. and no bike without a rider/owner.

there are multiple "it"s to be gotten, of varying validities.

hey, a footnote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle

[atmo]

there are, i believe, many "it"s to be gotten from anything that is created.<cut>there are multiple "it"s to be gotten, of varying validities.

there's no disputin' any of this. but - what is in james' head
when a campaign is created and it possibly succeeds for
reasons other than those that make up the creative work
you put forth? iow, if the goods sell, and the client is happy,
but somehow a twist or and edge that you brought to it
all is overlooked, what emotion do you feel atmo?

[Climb01742]

i guess i see what i do as a dialogue. i only control part of it. sometimes the responses puzzle me, amuse me, anger me, please me, but the responses are integral to what i do. so mostly i guess i accept them and go to the next ad. what i do is imperfect so the responses will be "imperfect", meaning not always what i hoped.

[atmo]

i guess i see what i do as a dialogue. i only control part of it. sometimes the responses puzzle me, amuse me, anger me, please me, but the responses are integral to what i do. so mostly i guess i accept them and go to the next ad. what i do is imperfect so the responses will be "imperfect", meaning not always what i hoped.


same here. same for most framebuilders i know.
we do our best. if we ever get it completely right,
it's major miracle. until then, getting near it is why
we come in every day atmo.

[Climb01742]

cool.

yo, i'm flickr-ing...uploading my pix of dario's shop. should be finished tonight or first thing in AM. keep an eye open.

[Jeff Weir]

there's no disputin' any of this. but - what is in james' head
when a campaign is created and it possibly succeeds for
reasons other than those that make up the creative work
you put forth? iow, if the goods sell, and the client is happy,
but somehow a twist or and edge that you brought to it
all is overlooked, what emotion do you feel atmo?


That happens from time to time. You push it, give it that little bit "extra" and it goes unnoticed. Some people see it, others don't. When it goes overlooked I gotta shrug my shoulders and let it go (but I'll still try the next time). Not everyone is looking at it the same way I do. But, when the "client" spots it/feels it, usually makes me want to go push it even more. That's the good part.

[Dekonick]

That happens from time to time. You push it, give it that little bit "extra" and it goes unnoticed. Some people see it, others don't. When it goes overlooked I gotta shrug my shoulders and let it go (but I'll still try the next time). Not everyone is looking at it the same way I do. But, when the "client" spots it/feels it, usually makes me want to go push it even more. That's the good part.

It may take someone a lifetime or more to appreciate that little bit 'extra'...the beauty is, given time, most can eventually get there.

[manet]

Some people just "get" or understand, things, like an abstract painting, Iga vase, coffee cup or bicycle frame. A person, like my ceramics teacher, or myself, may view a coffee cup as a small sculpture, that has to serve a function and feel comfortable, and look attractive, and be balanced. Some people get this too, while others just drink coffee out of it while making no observations or thinking about what it is they are holding. For them a factory mug from Starbucks may be fine. I have been trying to make the perfect handle for over 17 years.

dutch stillife, or maybe an american trompe l'oeil.
people stand and stare, ogle, point, and moan.
these utterances are for the public around them.
they want people to know they get it. most don't.
noises or not. they are recognizing in the painting an
object familar, but not the painting itself.

[vandeda]

I was thinking more on this and started thinking specifically about some of the most beautifully crafted bikes I've seen. The Vanilla http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=19315
is designed to be ridden.

Hey ... that's my bike. The plan was that it would be ridden for many years to come. But, it didn't work as the touring bike as it had been intended to. Excellent bike, but I had very specific requirements which it just didn't meet, so I'm moving on so that it *does* get ridden by someone, and hopefully ridden a lot as the bike rides very well.

I've determined that I love my cheap/inexpensive frame/forks (Centurion Le Mans for $0, Surly Steamroller for $275 new and Coppi for $275 new). Each one of them has treated me extremely well and each has exceeded expectations. Some like my Centurion have far far exceeded expectations. And if someone bad were to happen, they would be easy and inexpensive to replace.

Dan

[atmo]

Hey ... that's my bike. The plan was that it would be ridden for many years to come. But, it didn't work as the touring bike as it had been intended to. Excellent bike, but I had very specific requirements which it just didn't meet, so I'm moving on so that it *does* get ridden by someone, and hopefully ridden a lot as the bike rides very well.

I've determined that I love my cheap/inexpensive frame/forks (Centurion Le Mans for $0, Surly Steamroller for $275 new and Coppi for $275 new). Each one of them has treated me extremely well and each has exceeded expectations. And if someone bad were to happen, they would be easy and inexpensive to replace.

Dan
thanks for adding this dan atmo.
and wrt this -
So for those of you who have been to the classifieds section today there is a heads up for an auction in which a pristine 1985 Sachs (atmo) is for sale. I was looking at this thing wondering how anyone keeps a bike in this condition for 20 years.
for the record, the auction was pulled and the new owner
of this well, WELL used RS frame (see my other post explaining
this) is keeping it for himself.

odd all this; the true stories two of the frames in question that
spawned this thread are nothing like what was first imagined atmo.

[Sacha White]

Hey ... that's my bike. The plan was that it would be ridden for many years to come. But, it didn't work as the touring bike as it had been intended to. Excellent bike, but I had very specific requirements which it just didn't meet, so I'm moving on so that it *does* get ridden by someone, and hopefully ridden a lot as the bike rides very well.

Dan

This is the most recent of several backhanded compliments from dan online about his bike.

I don't know, maybe I'm being too sensitive and I should continue to let it go, but this just doesn't sit right with me.

It is unfortunate that "vandeda" feels a need to point the finger here, especially when the issues that he has, he shares responsibility for.

Dan, it is fine if you want to sell your bike. But for eff sake take some resposibility for it this project. we both know that your requests went far beyond the scope of any standard bike model. Some was left open to my interpretation and maybe I didn't hit the mark 100%, other aspects were not accurately communicated from your side.

If you would like to try and come to an understanding one on one like human beings, I am open to that, as I have always been.

-Sacha

[Sacha White]

odd all this; the true stories two of the frames in question that
spawned this thread are nothing like what was first imagined atmo.

Richard,

what does this mean?

-Sacha

[atmo]

Richard,

what does this mean?

-Sacha
i was referring to the fact - i thought - that this thread may
not have been a thread at all if the OP knew more about some
of the frames in question. here's (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=241809&postcount=49) that other expanation wrt the
RS ebay frame atmo.

[obtuse]

This is the most recent of several backhanded compliments from dan online about his bike.

I don't know, maybe I'm being too sensitive and I should continue to let it go, but this just doesn't sit right with me.

It is unfortunate that "vandeda" feels a need to point the finger here, especially when the issues that he has, he shares responsibility for.

Dan, it is fine if you want to sell your bike. But for eff sake take some resposibility for it this project. we both know that your requests went far beyond the scope of any standard bike model. Some was left open to my interpretation and maybe I didn't hit the mark 100%, other aspects were not accurately communicated from your side.

If you would like to try and come to an understanding one on one like human beings, I am open to that, as I have always been.

-Sacha

yeah man-
you really screwed the pooch on that freaking thing. sacha-that looks nothing like a thirft store centurion or a sewer pipe tubed mad-painful coppi. get back on target buddy and start building the garbage people want.

richard has already begun work on some frames made out of a n.o.s stash of high-tensile steel 1 inch tubing and pucci found some cottered cranks in his basement. hymen roth here at international has some grab-on foam bar tape in the basement....we gotta collaborate man.


obtuse

[stevep]

yeah man-
you really screwed the pooch on that freaking thing. sacha-that looks nothing like a thirft store centurion or a sewer pipe tubed mad-painful coppi. get back on target buddy and start building the garbage people want.

richard has already begun work on some frames made out of a n.o.s stash of high-tensile steel 1 inch tubing and pucci found some cottered cranks in his basement. hymen roth here at international has some grab-on foam bar tape in the basement....we gotta collaborate man.


obtuse

ps.
that cottered crank is on my tt bike. very low q factor and the arms practically line up. its no longer available on e-boy. i do have a shogun 1010 tubing frame for sale... i will trade for the vanilla and throw in a cro-mo fork...only bent back a little... front wheel barely touches the frame.

a lot of you guys have been in bikes for a long time...there are reasons not to get over involved in decision making regarding custom frames by customers. here is one of them.
ps sacha. the frame looks great to me.

[dbrk]

yeah man-... and pucci found some cottered cranks in his basement. hymen roth here at international has some grab-on foam bar tape in the basement....we gotta collaborate man.
obtuse

Don't believe him, Sacha. _I_ have THE stash of cottered cranks and just in case you need them AVA stems and Cinelli M71 clipless pedals, the real freakin' deal, better known as the "Death Pedals." Personally, I'd never use anything else. Lemme know if I can help you with that next French-style build, brother, I gots the goods.

yrveryownatmoyoimho, dbrk

[obtuse]

Don't believe him, Sacha. _I_ have THE stash of cottered cranks and just in case you need them AVA stems and Cinelli M71 clipless pedals, the real freakin' deal, better known as the "Death Pedals." Personally, I'd never use anything else. Lemme know if I can help you with that next French-style build, brother, I gots the goods.

yrveryownatmoyoimho, dbrk


speaking of which dbrk pal,
what's the word on the best bike in the world? email me.

obtuse

[dbrk]

speaking of which dbrk pal,
what's the word on the best bike in the world? email me.

obtuse

Email sent. And just in case anyone wants to know what this country is coming to, to say nothing of certain important French parts which will soon no longer be available if you are particularly windy, look here: http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/08/14/foie.gras.ap/index.html

mon dieu ! ce qui se produira après ! bon pour l'oie, bon pour la bicyclette !

dbrk

[Tom]

I think this is just swell. I got all misty eyed. I'm not kidding.

[Too Tall]

MJB266 - ;) I'll get it back on track. BOTH!!! I'm 110% sure guys like Llewyllyn understands appreciate and expect folks to "collect" preserve and otherwise treat some of his bikes as art objects....just an example.

I'd like to think that the builders personal direction is considered especially when contracting or buying a handmade bike. I'm not going out on a limb to say R.S., T.K. and Sasha would LOVE to see any and that includes ANY of their bikes used, beat on and "well loved" for the ages...repaired, refurbished or spray painted just as long as they are in the hands of folks who use them and appreciate a bike.

Similar, can't help but think these same builders would understand why someone would "collect" and hang onto one of their bikes but "really" wish it was used and not just collecting only admiring stares.

I can name other builders who's direction and drive lean heavily to visual / aesthetic with the bicycle function rating a second place. NOT THAT THERE IS ANYTHING wrong with that!!! These cats get my nod for sure and for certain because I dig what they do....I don't want their bikes. But maybe, someday when I can only look at a bike and can no longer ride? Pray that day never comes bruddah.

[dbrk]

...Similar, can't help but think these same builders would understand why someone would "collect" and hang onto one of their bikes but "really" wish it was used and not just collecting only admiring stares.

I'm feelish coquettish this morning so why not raise the depression stakes, just for fun.

So, say, one of our Esteemed Builders had a chance to have his bike hung in the Met or the Lourve (near the new exhibit on that now obsolete delicacy, foie gras, look here: http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/08/14/foie.gras.ap/index.html) or, say, well-used and hanging up filthy in some good guy's garage, like, say, TooTall. Immortal aesthetic recognition or happy riding client? Your call.

dbrk
"I'd rather be a sparrow than a snail..." or is that escargot with David Bouley? (http://www.bouley.net/hires/davidbouley.html)

[Too Tall]

The Foie Gras debacle has really has you spinning. It's so wrong yet so right.

I for certain have nothing to offer...what would Nakashima say?

[catulle]

I'm feelish coquettish this morning so why not raise the depression stakes, just for fun.

So, say, one of our Esteemed Builders had a chance to have his bike hung in the Met or the Lourve (near the new exhibit on that now obsolete delicacy, foie gras, look here: http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/08/14/foie.gras.ap/index.html) or, say, well-used and hanging up filthy in some good guy's garage, like, say, TooTall. Immortal aesthetic recognition or happy riding client? Your call.

dbrk
"I'd rather be a sparrow than a snail..." or is that escargot with David Bouley? (http://www.bouley.net/hires/davidbouley.html)


Er, I'd rather have my fine hand-made bicycle with foie gras. And, oddly enough, I'd have my escargot afterwards, thank you.

[atmo]

I'm feelish coquettish this morning so why not raise the depression stakes, just for fun.

So, say, one of our Esteemed Builders had a chance to have his bike hung in the Met or the Lourve (near the new exhibit on that now obsolete delicacy, foie gras,<cut>

given the chance - i'd opt for the lourve!
i'd go to fracne just to spend a night in paris atmo.
e-COQUETTISH

[atmo]

The Foie Gras debacle has really has you spinning. It's so wrong yet so right.

I for certain have nothing to offer...what would Nakashima say?
i'd pay to hear him say anything - he's dead atmo!

[J.Greene]

MJB266 - ;) Similar, can't help but think these same builders would understand why someone would "collect" and hang onto one of their bikes but "really" wish it was used and not just collecting only admiring stares.

I can name other builders who's direction and drive lean heavily to visual / aesthetic with the bicycle function rating a second place. NOT THAT THERE IS ANYTHING wrong with that!!! These cats get my nod for sure and for certain because I dig what they do....I don't want their bikes. But maybe, someday when I can only look at a bike and can no longer ride? Pray that day never comes bruddah.

My experience......

My ATMO track bike was a special order using 70's lugs and pipes. Most people think it is too nice to ride. ATMO seemed to have more of a connection to the whole process than normal. The bike sat unridden for over a year. It did a few bike shows and won some awards. I always planned to ride it from the beggining but never did. I aksed ATMO what he thought about this preserve/ride subject about 1 and 1/2 years ago. He and I seemed to be the only ones that didn't have a problem riding it. ATMO did say he'd prefer I not race it.

I ride it some now. I have a set of sturdy road wheels that I use. I can say the pleasure of riding the bike is many times more than just owning it. It would hurt if it were seriously damaged, but worse is for it to sit there, the potential never unleashed.

JG

[Too Tall]

J.Greene - you are the lucky kid on the block ain't you :) So it is all about people isn't it? You prolly would never have connected with Twizzler had you not dug his mojo for all things cherished. The bike, the special tubes and mutual satisfaction to create timelessness. It fits, no surprise.

Anywho, Nakashima is dead sure. The chairs, tables, benches and such ain't. Anywho I used that as an example because I once asked to have a table refinished because yrs. of family "love" had dented and generally f'd up the finish...the reply was something to the effect: "this reflects the environment where these objects are used and they should be used not preserved..I'll send you some polish.." No soup for me ;)

[93legendti]

J.Greene - you are the lucky kid on the block ain't you :) So it is all about people isn't it? You prolly would never have connected with Twizzler had you not dug his mojo for all things cherished. The bike, the special tubes and mutual satisfaction to create timelessness. It fits, no surprise.

Anywho, Nakashima is dead sure. The chairs, tables, benches and such ain't. Anywho I used that as an example because I once asked to have a table refinished because yrs. of family "love" had dented and generally f'd up the finish...the reply was something to the effect: "this reflects the environment where these objects are used and they should be used not preserved..I'll send you some polish.." No soup for me ;)

Ah, Nakashima. :cool: I grew up on a steady diet of his wonderful furniture. My favorite [now that my father (z'l) has passed], is a table my father, who was an architect, designed and Nakashima built. The drawing with my father's and Nakashima's notes is very cool to see.






(Sorry SG)

[J.Greene]

J.Greene - you are the lucky kid on the block ain't you :) So it is all about people isn't it? You prolly would never have connected with Twizzler had you not dug his mojo for all things cherished. The bike, the special tubes and mutual satisfaction to create timelessness. It fits, no surprise.

Yes to all of the above. It's corny, but looking back it was a very big deal to me. It was the experience of this track bike that led me to dabble in buildiing frames myself. When I "got it", it opened up a whole other world atmo.

JG

[cpg]

Sorry for coming along so late in the game. Just got back from vacation. Anyway, I don't care too much what people do with their bikes as long as they like them. If I had to chose, I'd pick that I'd rather the bikes get ridden than not.

Curt

[vandeda]

[QUOTE=Sacha White]This is the most recent of several backhanded compliments from dan online about his bike.

OK ... out of respect to Sacha, I will just repeat this again. The bike is beautifully made and rides great, but just didn't meet some very specific requirements. I want to see the bike get ridden, and ridden a lot, by someone, so I'm selling it. I don't see anything backhanded about that.

Dan

[shinomaster]

Foi gras is barbaric like veal, but man is it tasty. The best I ever ate was at Olive's in Boston....Todd English can cook.(were he actually cooking)
You have to love the French. They have massive billboards for Foi Gras with truffels in the Metro stations. I loved Paris so much that returning home to Boston, was like returning to a third-world cultural shiithole.

[Sacha White]

C'mon Dan, do you really want to have a he said she said argument in front of the whole forum?

Poll: who wants to see the young couple resolve their issues by yelling at each other in public?

[shinomaster]

Hey Sacha, Just repaint a Centurian for him.

[shinomaster]

Over the years I have sold a lot of pots. I figure some day I will find some in a yard sale or in a thrift store. If they are good pots I might buy them back for fun.

[Ginger]

Foi gras is barbaric like veal, but man is it tasty. .
Shades of Climb's strawberries thread.

Those of you contemplating the whole foi gras issue should track down the article:
The Dilemma of Foi Gras
p 32 in the Art of Eating, number 68, 2004.
And, as the article ends:
"Lets hope this debate can lead to a more honest consideration of our relationship to all the food we eat, and not just a single luxury."

Elsewhere in the archives is a decent article on humane veal.


We all know duck abuse is rampant (although stressed birds don't produce quality foi gras) but I think the Foi Gras ban is a dangerous path to tread. America has far bigger internal problems than fat ducks.

[shinomaster]

...

[72gmc]

ducks... no way. they're too oily and they have the ugliest uniforms in football.*

if i were a framebuilder, i would want to see my creations put to use. it would be a tremendous shame and waste not to ride the work of serotta, atmo, cpg, sacha, david, dbrk... heck any of the builders who frequent these pages.




*received my season tickets last week! woof woof woof

[Too Tall]

I hate to break the topic thread....but Shino can you sell me a lid?

Passion is a curious emotion. It is cruel and priceless at the sametime. I agree, this not such a good thing to yak about casually. XXOO Joshua "Ben Yahuddah PeaceMaker Too Tall"

[shinomaster]

lid for what? A bike helmet?