OT - Opinions wanted on older BMW 3 series

[2wheelwill]

I'm considering buying a friend's 2005 BMW 325i convertible. It has 45,000 miles and it has been well cared for since new. I've read all the car blogs and there seems to be universal praise for the car's fun factor. But reliability reviews seems to be a mixed bag - everything from rock solid to "of course it's a BMW so expect to be in the shop a lot."

Anyone own a 3 series of this era? What's your experience? I believe this is considered the E46 model.

Thanks!


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[woodworker]

This may not help a lot, but I had the prior version of the 3 series convertible. I ran it to roughly 250K miles, and then handed it over to my Dad who drove it for another decade--probably up to 350K miles. It was a manual transmission car, so I can't speak to any automatic transmission issues, but I can say that the BMW 6 cylinder engine was amazing. Lasted forever and was fun to drive. The miscellaneous electrical and other stuff had some issues. Loved the car.

[jwalther]

My daily is an 04 330i convertible. I've owned it for almost three years (bought at 65k miles, now at 89k), with only routine maintenance. That said, I'm due for an expensive cooling system refresh and some other work in the next year. Maintenance history is key when buying a used BMW. Properly cared for, you can expect 250k+ miles of fun.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s216/jeffw63/E0DC9E09-755A-46D9-AC47-9438FA11BDCC_zpskfsiug0e.jpg (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/jeffw63/media/E0DC9E09-755A-46D9-AC47-9438FA11BDCC_zpskfsiug0e.jpg.html)

By far the best online resource is http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/forum.php You'll be welcome even if your car isn't a ZHP.

[JLQ]

I had a 2002 323iT (wagon) that I put 160k on before passing it on to my father-in-law who has it up to nearly 300k. Two necessary things are attention to maintenance and an honest independent BMW mechanic.

[.RJ]

At that age you're looking at a cooling system refresh (t-stat, water pump, radiator, hoses), probably some lower control arm bushings (replace the whole arm), rear shock mounts are problematic, things like the oil filter housing gasket, valve cover gaskets & oil pan like to leak, and there's a bunch of rubber hoses in the intake/pcv system that like to split and cause problems.

None of this stuff is expensive on its own, but, it can feel like it nickles & dimes you over time if you're paying for a shop to look after it. If you're handy with doing your own maintenance, you can order parts online, set aside a long weekend and knock everything out preventatively and it'll treat you right. The motors are tanks though, they will run forever.

[JeffWarner]

Great cars. I spent 14 years with an E46 (2002 325i with manual transmission). As noted above, my experience was not about poor reliability, but preventative upkeep. A lot of it is mileage based, but a lot of issues are driven by time .... brittle plastic in the cooling system and aged suspension components for example. Maintenance records and a pre-purchase inspection by an experienced BMW mechanic are a must.

The enthusiast community is still strong with the platform and about every issue is documented on the web. To see what you are getting into and set expectations, the following wiki is pretty detailed : http://www.bimmerfest.com/wiki/index.php?title=BMW_E46




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[Gummee]

They aren't called 'Bring More Wallet' for nothing. The starter on my 04 X3 went out and *wholesale* on the starter was $200

WHOLESALE!

I'm buddies with an independent mechanic (not BMW only alas) so got a deal, but it was stil a spendy starter replacement.

Having said that, it was less than repairing Dad's S320.

There's nothing quite like the drive of a BMW. It's an amazing feeling.

M

edited to add: since there're a few BMW guys here, what does a going/gone guibo (sp?) joint feel like?

[.RJ]

I forgot about the guibo. Add that to your list, too. None of this stuff is difficult, just time consuming, DIY instructions are available for everything. Parts are reasonable cost on the internet.

If the car has been well looked after, it'll be a few things each year that needs attention.

[pcxmbfj]

Currently driving a 2006 330i, last year of the series I believe, with 86,000mi.

It was our fourth and first that we had beyond the factory warranty.

Service has run around $1000 annually since, brakes and tires the majority expense.

Believe that the 325 is the better engine and getting the car at market price you should have some years of pleasurable driving.

[benb]

Isn't the 2005 3-series part of the design that has the issue with the rear of the chassis cracking at the suspension sub-frame mounting point?

That was a real serious issue.. you'd want to make sure the one you were looking at had that addressed in some way.

[JeffWarner]

Isn't the 2005 3-series part of the design that has the issue with the rear of the chassis cracking at the suspension sub-frame mounting point?



That was a real serious issue.. you'd want to make sure the one you were looking at had that addressed in some way.



While all e46s have the potential for torn rear subframe, the early cars (1999) are the greatest risk due to running changes to the manufacture process. It's a know issue that should be looked out for during a PPI.


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[2wheelwill]

Isn't the 2005 3-series part of the design that has the issue with the rear of the chassis cracking at the suspension sub-frame mounting point?



That was a real serious issue.. you'd want to make sure the one you were looking at had that addressed in some way.



This sounds pretty serious. Was this a recall issue or are owners on their own?


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[RFC]

I'm still driving my 2003 Z4 and it's going strong. My only advice is shop around for a good mechanic and avoid BMW service centers. That's where the costs go up dramatically. Must be all of the personal service reps in the white shirts.

I bought my BMW new, however, I have had very good luck with used German cars. I have bought three low mileage 90's Mercedes for my sons from my very honest and helpful Mercedes mechanic for $3,500 - 6,000. Absolute tanks!

[redir]

That's low mileage on a 12 year old car. If the price was right I'd be all over it, is all I'm sayin'. :)

[shovelhd]

Check it over well for rust. Rockers, trunk under the spare, and under the rear seat.

[witcombusa]

It's funny to hear a 2005 mentioned as an 'older' 3 Series!

I have/had 3 series bimmers from the e30, e36 and e46 platforms. Generally good to great cars but if you need factory service probably not a good idea/value post warranty. See if you have a good experienced INDEPENDANT BMW mechanic local to you. The more you can do yourself (properly), the better your ownership will be.

[benb]

This sounds pretty serious. Was this a recall issue or are owners on their own?


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IIRC there was no recall and BMW lost a class action lawsuit over it. Sounds like the shops know how to do some kind of reinforcement to prevent it from happening but if it happens it's pretty serious.

Never owned one but I loved that generation and did look at a used 2005 330ci w/sport package way back when. Great car, by far the best driving of the cars I was looking at, but it was the most expensive even used, I was looking at the Audi A3 and ended up buying my Acura.. that was 2006, BMW was $30k used, the other two were more like $22-25k new.

[Ken Robb]

Great cars. I spent 14 years with an E46 (2002 325i with manual transmission). As noted above, my experience was not about poor reliability, but preventative upkeep. A lot of it is mileage based, but a lot of issues are driven by time .... brittle plastic in the cooling system and aged suspension components for example. Maintenance records and a pre-purchase inspection by an experienced BMW mechanic are a must.

The enthusiast community is still strong with the platform and about every issue is documented on the web. To see what you are getting into and set expectations, the following wiki is pretty detailed : http://www.bimmerfest.com/wiki/index.php?title=BMW_E46




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Are you related to Nurse Jane? Seriously.

[Ken Robb]

Great cars. I spent 14 years with an E46 (2002 325i with manual transmission). As noted above, my experience was not about poor reliability, but preventative upkeep. A lot of it is mileage based, but a lot of issues are driven by time .... brittle plastic in the cooling system and aged suspension components for example. Maintenance records and a pre-purchase inspection by an experienced BMW mechanic are a must.

The enthusiast community is still strong with the platform and about every issue is documented on the web. To see what you are getting into and set expectations, the following wiki is pretty detailed : http://www.bimmerfest.com/wiki/index.php?title=BMW_E46




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Are you related to Nurse Jane? Seriously. Did we do The Silver State Challenge together?

[Ken Robb]

I had a 2004 330i ZHP 6 speed that I put 120,000 miles on with quite a few track days. Naturally I replaced a lot of brake pads and rotors but I had no problems with engine, trans, or clutch. As others said I replaced aall cooling system components as a preventive measure at 65,000 miles. I had to replace a few window regulators like many other owners. Reaction rod bushings every 35000 miles. When I sold it it still felt like a new car.

Join BMWCCA for access to good info, tech help, and discounts on parts and service. I'm sure there are good independent shops in your area. Closer to SF I could name shops.

[2wheelwill]

Thanks for all the info. Seller is asking $8000 so seems a little high but mileage is so low. KBB says $6-$7k is fair market but I don't see much selling in that price range. Hope to go drive it tomorrow!!!


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[Louis]

Thanks for all the info. Seller is asking $8000 so seems a little high but mileage is so low. KBB says $6-$7k is fair market but I don't see much selling in that price range.

It's hard to negotiate with a friend, but if his asking price for you is the same as the asking price for some random buyer off the street, I don't think I'd call him a friend.

[witcombusa]

It's hard to negotiate with a friend, but if his asking price for you is the same as the asking price for some random buyer off the street, I don't think I'd call him a friend.

So he should loose money because you know him?
It's a fair price with the mileage.

[Louis]

So he should loose money because you know him?
It's a fair price with the mileage.

I'm glad I don't have to count on you as a friend - if for some reason I had to ask for your help you'd probably first tell me how much it would cost then have me sign a legal disclaimer. (after all, that's fair and what it would cost me on the open market)

[smead]

Thanks for all the info. Seller is asking $8000 so seems a little high but mileage is so low. KBB says $6-$7k is fair market but I don't see much selling in that price range. Hope to go drive it tomorrow!!!


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Make sure he has paperwork that prove's the 45K is legit, then again if he's a close friend and org owner, then forget that .. Price seems a tad high, but I'd concur w/ prior response that 2005 is hardly "older" (then again, I drive a 1986 grand marquis), and that milage is really low. So if you know it's history and it is that low milage of a cream-puff, I'd say the extra grand or two is well worth it.

Those motors and drivetrains run a long time, but after about 150K or so, expect things to start breaking down and unless you can do most of the non-major stuff yourself, shop rates and parts for BMWs are shockingly high.

When I met my wife she had an '88 325I with 175K on it, and I think over the next 50K, I put over $6000 in it, then ended up giving it away when it wouldn't pass CA smog. She now has a '98 528i that's approaching that "ready your checkbook" milage mark and I'm starting to pucker. She of course won't let me sell it :no: .. and replace it with a Toyota.

[ojingoh]

I've owned 4 3ers, the E46 is the most trouble-prone one of the lot. I currently have an E30 too, I love that car. The E46 I never got past 'like.'

As mentioned earlier the coolant and vacuum/emission systems are the first to give troubles. Replace them before they fail.

Chassis and bodywork is kind of dumb on this car too - the sunroof will break but OP is buying a 'vert, so it doesn't matter. Body work is really expensive on this car, simple stuff like a fender bender can be thousands of dollars.

If you can work on a bike, you can do most of the maintenance yourself. They are pretty straightforward to work on with a Bentley Manual, and with the internet, easy to get semi-reasonably priced parts for. If you have someone else look after your car, it gets pretty expensive. A buddy's Cayenne dwarfs this cost though. I'll never buy a modern Porsche after the crazy Veblen pricing he pays for basic maintenance.

[genbar]

Have an e46 330i and an e30 318i.


As I expected in the posts, the theme here is preventive upkeep, PLEASE KEEP YOUR COOLING SYSTEM IN MIND! Get yourself a 'cooling system refresh' kit from ECStuning if it has not been done already. And on the e46es, don't run that engine when it's red in the temp gauge. You'll warp that delicate aluminum block.


e46fanatics.com and r3vlimited.com have taught me plenty. Such a great resource and I've DIY-ed most of my stuff with help from those forums (and youtube)

[Ralph]

I'm a big fan of 3 series BMW's.....think generally they are great vehicles....the benchmark for sport sedans.....but if I only had a relatively small amount to buy a used vehicle, and was concerned with maintenance and repair costs, I certainly would not be considering a used BMW.

[summilux]

I have a 2007 328i with 230,000 km. As long as you know you are getting into a high maintenance vehicle you will do fine. You have to change the fluids and filters regularly and water pumps and starter motors are service items. Budget $2-2.5K year on service. You can save a bit if you learn to change your own oil and brake parts. It's quite easy and very satisfying.

As others have said, you need to find a good BMW mechanic and have him look at the car before you purchase.

[Louis]

You have to change the fluids and filters regularly

IMO this ^^^^ is understandable and expected for any motor vehicle.


water pumps and starter motors are service items.

However, if "service items" means more than one (maybe two) replacements over the life of the vehicle (assuming, say, 250k to 300k miles total life for the car) then that's either bad design and/or manufacturing or an intentional situation designed to be a revenue generator long after the initial purchase.

[jumphigher]

Didnt read the entire thread but here are my thoughts. BMW has made both great and not-so-great cars. I had an e30 3 series (made from '84-99 I think), and it was a really fantastic car (ie reliable, well made) that I put over 300k on before I sold it. And currently my wife has an '05 X3, which has also been a great. reliable vehicle.

What I would do in your situation OP, is join a BMW forum and ask specifically about the model and year of the car you're thinking of buying. You'll get a good idea of the strengths and weaknesses of the car. I did that with my wife's X3, and my '90 Miata before buying. Good luck! :)

[tylercheung]

I think e46fanatics.com or something like that has a lot of resources.

[.RJ]

What I would do in your situation OP, is join a BMW forum

The signal:noise is awful on most car forums.

[jumphigher]

The signal:noise is awful on most car forums.

I agree wholeheatedly. But I think if you can weed through a lot of the BS you can find some really good info. Even reading past threads about your particular car. :)

[summilux]

However, if "service items" means more than one (maybe two) replacements over the life of the vehicle (assuming, say, 250k to 300k miles total life for the car) then that's either bad design and/or manufacturing or an intentional situation designed to be a revenue generator long after the initial purchase.

BMW water pumps and starters are notoriously poor. For the E90 3 series (2006-2012) average life for the pumps is ~80-90K miles, starters ~100-120K miles. Bad design? Yup. If the water pump impeller was made of metal instead of plastic, there wouldn't be these failures. The variable time system (VANOS) in the engines is quite sensitive to dirty oil and without regular 12K changes you are prone to all kinds of engine malfunctions. This is no Honda Civic! Most owners just view this as part of the cost of having a supremely fun car to drive. On one of the BMW forums I frequent there is one guy who has over 300K miles on his E90 so a 3 series can be a long-term car as long as you understand the cost/benefit ratio.

Water pump replacement is ~1K USD from an independent. Starter about the same. In the grand scheme of things this is not a huge sum of money, but is something to keep in mind. BMW also requires fancy oil. An E90 oil change is about $50 USD in oil and filter cost alone. It's easy to do yourself, but an indy will charge about $100.