I prefer cantilever brakes for gravel (and CX) bikes

[Erik_A]

I am not a fan of disc brakes for gravel/ endurance bikes, and am therefore frustrated that all of the sweet new steel gravel frames (that fit wider tires) are disc only! I guess I am a retro-grouch because I prefer my CX bike with TRP RevoX cantilever brakes. I am a big guy 6'-4" and over 220 lbs, and never had trouble stopping myself with cantilever brakes while riding cyclocross or gravel. Disc brakes are great for mountain bikes, but are such a hassle to set up properly and are way heavier than canti's.

For a short time, I had a Soma Wolverine with a nice steel front fork; the only problem was whenever I turned the brake rotor would rub against the caliper. I guess the fork was too flexible for my weight. So I just put 40c tires on my 2012 Van Dessel Gin & Trombones cyclocross bike, and call that my gravel bike. The Van Dessel has both canti studs as well as a disc mount on the frame. For awhile I thought about "upgrading" to discs, but I don't think I ever will. If its not broke, don't fix it, right?

I just wish that there was a Ritchey Swiss Cross (cantilever) equivalent steel frame that can fit 700x45c tires.

[bicycletricycle]

Troll?

:banana:

I also like Cantilever brakes

discs can be fantastic, but I prefer a simpler solution


However sometimes in the snow on a miserable commute I want them.

[Erik_A]

No trolling, just frustrated that all of the new steel gravel frames are disc only.


Troll?

:banana:

I also like Cantilever brakes

discs can be fantastic, but I prefer a simpler solution


However sometimes in the snow on a miserable commute I want them.

[bicycletricycle]

I guess you'll just have to get a custom :)

[VoyTirando]

I was frankly psyched to see the "i prefer cantilevers" post. I rode mountain bikes for several years up in Winter Park, CO, where a ride involved a 1-2 hour climb and then a screaming descent back to the valley floor. I did this for years on cantis and V-brakes, in all conditions, and I was fine. Riding gravel now (and road), I'm pleased as punch with 1) TRP Euro-X cantis on the Bridgestone, and 2) centerpulls on the Bilenky. I've ridden the crap out of the TRPs, including D2R2 and lots of stuff up in Putnam County, NY, and I've never wanted discs.

My brother, a pretty serious rider out in Seattle, just locked up both discs on his CAAD12 and slid through an intersection in the rain, no modulation in those gorramn things to speak of, and is thinking of going back to a canti-based system himself (after 9 years of MTB in Park City, UT, he knows a thing or 2 about mountain biking).

I'm sure discs are nice. But there's no way they're "necessary." And their ability to modulate speed is arguably equaled by rider on cantis who knows what (s)he is doing.

That is all.

[choke]

I just wish that there was a Ritchey Swiss Cross (cantilever) equivalent steel frame that can fit 700x45c tires.Black Mountain Cycles?

[donevwil]

There's really nothing (in the rim brake world) better than a well set up, top quality set of cantis (Suntour, Shimano post mount). Power, modulation and clearance that no other (rim) brake can match and not stuck using lame Kool Stop thinline pads. Unfortunately there are a lot of crappy cantis out there and set-up can be too challenging or time consuming for many.

I'm running Suntour XC-Pros with Yokozuna Scott-Mathauser pads and a Suntour Power Hanger (in front) on my Black Mountain. Leaves nothing to be desired even compared to my Paul Racer M and Mini Moto bikes (with thinline pads) and I'm 220-240# in an area with a lot of steep descents.

I just picked up a $14 set of NOS Suntour SE (self energizing) cantis for the rear just 'cause I've always wondered.

[pdmtong]

There's really nothing (in the rim brake world) better than a well set up, top quality set of cantis. Power, modulation and clearance that no other (rim) brake can match. Unfortunately there are a lot of crappy cantis out there and set-up can be too challenging or time consuming for many. I'm running Suntour XC-Pros with Yokozuna Scott-Mathauser pads and a Suntour Power Hanger (in front) on my Black Mountain. Leaves nothing to be desired even compared to my Paul Racer M and Mini Moto bikes and I'm 220-240# in an area with a lot of steep descents.

I just picked up a $14 set of NOS Suntour SE (self energizing) cantis for the rear just 'cause I've always wondered.

we had those on our fisher gemini tandem. decent brakeset prior to the coming advances in v-brakes but I still do not get why anyone would still prefer canti to modern disc. clearly our riding styles and trails are different

[Luwabra]

I'm pleased w my canti bikes on gravel in all conditions. Eurox f/r on my nature boy ss and a mullet tektro/shorty6 combo on the poprad. ALL my buddies have gone to disc. I say meh. I may consider after all my wheelsets are cooked but for now I'm perfectly content

[Erik_A]

I agree that for mountain biking, discs are best; I was just talking cyclocross and gravel/ endurance.

we had those on our fisher gemini tandem. decent brakeset prior to the coming advances in v-brakes but I still do not get why anyone would still prefer canti to modern disc. clearly our riding styles and trails are different

[nash]

Yeah, like canti's too!

Oh yeah, get a Black Mountain!

[Tony]

we had those on our fisher gemini tandem. decent brakeset prior to the coming advances in v-brakes but I still do not get why anyone would still prefer canti to modern disc. clearly our riding styles and trails are different

What I was thinking as I read some of these posts.

[ceolwulf]

I've been pretty happy overall with the cantis (Avid Shorty Ultimate, so I would hope so) on my Masi CXR. The two minor things that do bug me are, having to adjust them every time I switch from my gravel wheels to my wider-rimmed road wheels, and grinding up my rims in poor conditions. I'll probably go disc when I replace that bike (no rush) but the braking itself is completely fine.

[Erik_A]

Thanks very much for the advice, that might be just the ticket! I would need the 64cm size.

So a Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross frame is made from unbranded tubing, but based on reviews it matches(beats) the Swiss Cross for frame weight.
- The Swiss Cross is triple butted Logic II and a 55cm frame weighs 4.32#.
- The Black Mountain Cycles frame is heat treated double butted(.8/.5/.8) and a 56cm frame weighs 4.07#.

This assumes you dont get the 64cm frame. If you do, the tubing is .9/.6/.9 and was designed a hair thicker because we bigger folk kinda tend to weigh a bit more too.

Now the Swiss cross has a carbon fork so thatll obviously weigh less than the Black Mountain Cycles steel fork. But it could easily be swapped for a carbon, or keep the stock fork and enjoy the awesome Pacenti PBP fork crown.

So its a steel frame which weighs slightly less than the Swiss Cross, has canti studs, has room for a 50mm tire, and costs less than half of the Swiss Cross frameset.

He currently has the 64cm frame in shiny red, semigloss black, and pink.

Forgot to mention- the 64cm frames come with a 3rd bottle cage mount under the downtube, and also have fender and rack mounts both front and rear. Extremely versatile frame.

Here is a 65cm frame (not made anymore, but the current 64cm frame has the same effective measurements).

[chiasticon]

Disc brakes are great for mountain bikes, but are such a hassle to set up properly and are way heavier than canti's.

If its not broke, don't fix it, right?these two sum up my viewpoints on cantis for the most part. I love the simplicity of them, they're lighter than discs and they work just fine, so why mess with 'em?

to be honest, I understand using them for cross and gravel though. it's not my preference, but I understand why some would; especially for pros that will be on top tier stuff and it's right at the UCI weight limit anyway. and they're running the same wheels with the same axle system, etc. it's road where I don't get it. but I digress...

[pdmtong]

I agree that for mountain biking, discs are best; I was just talking cyclocross and gravel/ endurance.

In the spirit of discussion and absent the want or need to win my point there is still no way I would choose cantis over discs for cx gravel endurance

Discs allow
- greater ability to scrub speed instantly (traction allowing) to change lines. The inverse is now you can go faster without worrying about being able to stop. speed is an asset to ride some sections.
- less hand fatigue
- one finger braking

I also lament the loss of simplicity but the trade off is with it to me

[Erik_A]

I would argue that good cantis allow for the same stopping power - when I use them for cyclocross or gravel. Disc brakes are needed for rock gardens, and downhill while mountain biking, no arguing that.

For gravel events like the Land Run 100, when it gets wet the last thing people struggle with is braking power: See the Triple XXX Rd. comments on their Facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/landrun100/photos/a.564377890245225.145078.558197987529882/1665582970124706/?type=3&theater


In the spirit of discussion and absent the want or need to win my point there is still no way I would choose cantis over discs for cx gravel endurance

Discs allow
- greater ability to scrub speed instantly (traction allowing) to change lines. The inverse is now you can go faster without worrying about being able to stop. speed is an asset to ride some sections.
- less hand fatigue
- one finger braking

I also lament the loss of simplicity but the trade off is with it to me

[mjf]

I am not a fan of disc brakes for gravel/ endurance bikes, and am therefore frustrated that all of the sweet new steel gravel frames (that fit wider tires) are disc only! I guess I am a retro-grouch because I prefer my CX bike with TRP RevoX cantilever brakes. I am a big guy 6'-4" and over 220 lbs, and never had trouble stopping myself with cantilever brakes while riding cyclocross or gravel. Disc brakes are great for mountain bikes, but are such a hassle to set up properly and are way heavier than canti's.

For a short time, I had a Soma Wolverine with a nice steel front fork; the only problem was whenever I turned the brake rotor would rub against the caliper. I guess the fork was too flexible for my weight. So I just put 40c tires on my 2012 Van Dessel Gin & Trombones cyclocross bike, and call that my gravel bike. The Van Dessel has both canti studs as well as a disc mount on the frame. For awhile I thought about "upgrading" to discs, but I don't think I ever will. If its not broke, don't fix it, right?

I just wish that there was a Ritchey Swiss Cross (cantilever) equivalent steel frame that can fit 700x45c tires.

The one thing that I can agree with you on is the Soma Wolverine, if there's one thing I dislike about the bike, it's the fork. I'm about ~180lbs and it took me awhile to get the discs dialed in on the fork. Rear end was no issue.

I'm running 40c's on mine now with spyres, 160mm rotors; I had to add a 2mm spacer under the fork post mount adapter to make sure that I wouldn't get rubbing on either the caliper or rotor, since I was experiencing a combination of the two. After that was taken care of, I haven't had a single issue.

I haven't had the same problem on my Natureboy 853, even though components are identical. The whiskey fork and tapered headtube definitely make a huge difference with the increase in stiffness. I wish the wolverine was a tapered front end as well.

I have much more confidence in disc brakes, and being able to rely on them regardless of the weather or terrain. Rim brakes have never really inspired that confidence for me.

That being said, if I had to buy a new bike, it would be disc.

[donevwil]

we had those on our fisher gemini tandem. decent brakeset prior to the coming advances in v-brakes but I still do not get why anyone would still prefer canti to modern disc. clearly our riding styles and trails are different

I expressed no preference of cantis (or any rim brake) to discs, but that's probably not what you were implying. In Petaluma we just don't see the conditions that would make road discs shine, so why dump a perfectly good bike just to "modernize". Not everyone is made of money.

The only disc braked bike I've ridden is the commuter I built for my wife and that was only around the block. I would NEVER sub the bottom feeder BB7s on that bike for any rim brake. After only five years her wheels and brakes have lasted far longer than any from her previous rim braked commuter from the prior nine.

[pdmtong]

For gravel events like the Land Run 100, when it gets wet the last thing people struggle with is braking power: See the Triple XXX Rd. comments on their Facebook page:
https://www.facebook.com/landrun100/photos/a.564377890245225.145078.558197987529882/1665582970124706/?type=3&theater
yikes! for that, cantis for sure...less weight, massive mud shedding, braking the least of your worries.
I expressed no preference of cantis (or any rim brake) to discs, but that's probably not what you were implying. In Petaluma we just don't see the conditions that would make road discs shine, so why dump a perfectly good bike just to "modernize". Not everyone is made of money.

The only disc braked bike I've ridden is the commuter I built for my wife and that was only around the block. I would NEVER sub the bottom feeder BB7s on that bike for any rim brake. After only four years her wheels and brakes have lasted far longer than any from her previous rim braked commuter from the prior 15.
1) me included. and, agreed.
2) great description. I tried a 203mm BB7 on our third mtb tandem - bad move. slightly better than v-brake but soooo spongey. the point? the use case and budget drive the decision. lucky us to have choices. lmk what you think of pedersen SE technology as you delorean from 2017 back to 1991!

[oldpotatoe]

No trolling, just frustrated that all of the new steel gravel frames are disc only.

Not 'all'..

http://gunnarbikes.com/site/bikes/crosshairs

[donevwil]

lmk what you think of pedersen SE technology as you delorean from 2017 back to 1991!

Exactly what brake for a canti posted monster cross bike with clearance for 44s and fenders would you consider 2017 technology ?

[R3awak3n]

Disc brakes are a pain the ass but I would not say cantis are great. I am found of mini vs though, even though they lack clearance.

Disc brakes are cool that they let you use different size wheels.

[chiasticon]

Discs allow
- greater ability to scrub speed instantly (traction allowing) to change lines. The inverse is now you can go faster without worrying about being able to stop. speed is an asset to ride some sections.
- less hand fatigue
- one finger brakingmy inability to go faster in a cross race has never been caused by my fear that I won't be able to stop.

never been concerned about one finger braking or hand fatigue. maybe you need one of these:

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41TJFsKPwuL.jpg

much cheaper than buying a new bike ;)

[TunaAndBikes]

my inability to go faster in a cross race has never been caused by my fear that I won't be able to stop.

never been concerned about one finger braking or hand fatigue. maybe you need one of these:

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41TJFsKPwuL.jpg

much cheaper than buying a new bike ;)
[emoji91] [emoji91] [emoji91]

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk

[Bentley]

I appreciate the position of the original poster. I am looking for a "gravel"bike, in reality a road bike that would take 32'a would work for me, but pretty much all that is available is disc set ups. I have to believe that the whole move to disc brakes is about selling more groups and wheels, its proliferating everywhere.

If I were a professional riding down the mountains of Italy, Spain, France at high speed I would likely see a benefit of disc brakes, for me a rim brake gets the job done and it uncomplicated my life.

Just my opinion

😀😀

[Gummee]

I was frankly psyched to see the "i prefer cantilevers" post. I rode mountain bikes for several years up in Winter Park, CO, where a ride involved a 1-2 hour climb and then a screaming descent back to the valley floor. I did this for years on cantis and V-brakes, in all conditions, and I was fine. Riding gravel now (and road), I'm pleased as punch with 1) TRP Euro-X cantis on the Bridgestone, and 2) centerpulls on the Bilenky. I've ridden the crap out of the TRPs, including D2R2 and lots of stuff up in Putnam County, NY, and I've never wanted discs.

My brother, a pretty serious rider out in Seattle, just locked up both discs on his CAAD12 and slid through an intersection in the rain, no modulation in those gorramn things to speak of, and is thinking of going back to a canti-based system himself (after 9 years of MTB in Park City, UT, he knows a thing or 2 about mountain biking).

I'm sure discs are nice. But there's no way they're "necessary." And their ability to modulate speed is arguably equaled by rider on cantis who knows what (s)he is doing.

That is all.

If you like the Euro-X brakes, you'll love the Revo-X brakes

AMHIK

M

[Gummee]

2) great description. I tried a 203mm BB7 on our third mtb tandem - bad move. slightly better than v-brake but soooo spongey.!
That's somewhat fixable with zero compression housing. There will always be *some* compression, but it can be better with better housing

M

[Fatty]

I am not a fan of disc brakes for gravel/ endurance bikes, and am therefore frustrated that all of the sweet new steel gravel frames (that fit wider tires) are disc only! I guess I am a retro-grouch because I prefer my CX bike with TRP RevoX cantilever brakes. I am a big guy 6'-4" and over 220 lbs, and never had trouble stopping myself with cantilever brakes while riding cyclocross or gravel. Disc brakes are great for mountain bikes, but are such a hassle to set up properly and are way heavier than canti's.

For a short time, I had a Soma Wolverine with a nice steel front fork; the only problem was whenever I turned the brake rotor would rub against the caliper. I guess the fork was too flexible for my weight. So I just put 40c tires on my 2012 Van Dessel Gin & Trombones cyclocross bike, and call that my gravel bike. The Van Dessel has both canti studs as well as a disc mount on the frame. For awhile I thought about "upgrading" to discs, but I don't think I ever will. If its not broke, don't fix it, right?

I just wish that there was a Ritchey Swiss Cross (cantilever) equivalent steel frame that can fit 700x45c tires.
Sorry your first experience with discs was a poor one. My first time around with discs was frustrating and I went back to V-brakes. Sometimes a brand makes all the difference. There are some crummy disc brakes out there.

[Clean39T]

I count myself lucky for having grown up in MTB when the bikes were light, rigid, thumbed, and canted.

A properly set up canti brake is a thing of beauty, but took too long for the big-brand shops...so out went the hangers in favor of those stupid fixed-length things which people still fckd up and so another "innovation" was needed...another answer to a problem that didn't exist.

For my money, 1992-93 was the high water mark for mountain bikes; it's been a downward slide ever since. I'll be building a period-correct Fat Chance shortly to test that theory [emoji41]

The unfortunate thing is now the trails are being built to match the bikes, so finding fireroads and flowy-singletrack gets harder all the time. Extreme!! [emoji19]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[VoyTirando]

[QUOTE=Clean39T;2142843]I count myself lucky for having grown up in MTB when the bikes were light, rigid, thumbed, and canted.

A properly set up canti brake is a thing of beauty, but took too long for the big-brand shops...so out went the hangers in favor of those stupid fixed-length things which people still fckd up and so another "innovation" was needed...another answer to a problem that didn't exist.

For my money, 1992-93 was the high water mark for mountain bikes; it's been a downward slide ever since. I'll be building a period-correct Fat Chance shortly to test that theory [emoji41]

The unfortunate thing is now the trails are being built to match the bikes, so finding fireroads and flowy-singletrack gets harder all the time. Extreme!! [emoji19]



This. I guess my experience with MTB was jeep and fire roads in Colorado, or flowy singletrack in the same and in the Northeast. I did plenty of riding in Southern Utah on cantis, too, and never wanted more brake. And recently on my gravel bike, I took the Bridgestone to Acadia last summer and rode not just the carriage roads but rooted, tough singletrack on it up around Donnell Pond, and the cantis were great. I don't MTB anymore, so maybe the trails have changed.

As someone who isn't intimidated by my bike's guts - except for wheels, I'll leave those to the pros - I find cantis no problem to set up and keep set up right. One thing I like about cantis is that I can see everything: all the parts in plain sight, and at a height that's easy to field-service if necessary. And as to it being true that if you want to switch wheels you need to adjust the cable, that's so easy: loosen the hangar bolt and let some cable out (or vice versus), tighten up.

[teleguy57]

following this with interest. Campy rim brakes on my road bike, Tektro 720 calipers on my fender bike. Thinking about what I would want to have for braking for a next bike for larger tires. Was thinking disc, but this thread has me reconsidering Paul Racer/Racer M or even a high-quality canti.

Anyone have a good reference to optimizing canti setup? Or perhaps someone would start a new thread on that? Seems that those who like them have figured out how to make them work best. My 720s are a lower-end brake that I bet would benefit from being set up better....

Thanks!

[FlashUNC]

Because fork shudder is awesome?

[CAAD]

I just built up a CX bike with TRP CX8.4 V brakes and love them. Gobs of power and modulation. I can fit a knobby 38c in them fine. I think a slick 40 would fit though. Most rides don't require anything bigger then a 38 here in Florida. If i need anything that big ill bring the mountain bike.

[jtbadge]

I too prefer rim brakes for gravel/cross/enduro all road. But I don't ride through very much mud, besides in cross racing, which I hate. Having a bike built around a tapered ENVE fork and purple Paul MiniMotos.

I just built up a CX bike with TRP CX8.4 V brakes and love them. Gobs of power and modulation. I can fit a knobby 38c in them fine. I think a slick 40 would fit though. Most rides don't require anything bigger then a 38 here in Florida. If i need anything that big ill bring the mountain bike.

In my experience, you can definitely fit a knobby 40c WTB Nano under that brake. With mud.

[Clean39T]

Because fork shudder is awesome?

Fork shudder is much more likely on disc-brakes than cantilevers due to the brake placement..

[Clean39T]

following this with interest. Campy rim brakes on my road bike, Tektro 720 calipers on my fender bike. Thinking about what I would want to have for braking for a next bike for larger tires. Was thinking disc, but this thread has me reconsidering Paul Racer/Racer M or even a high-quality canti.

Anyone have a good reference to optimizing canti setup? Or perhaps someone would start a new thread on that? Seems that those who like them have figured out how to make them work best. My 720s are a lower-end brake that I bet would benefit from being set up better....

Thanks!

I would set mine up wide and low for best leverage - talking Dia-Compe 987 or old XT/XTR, but had a number of boutique ones back in the day too (wish I still had all of them of course :crap: ).

Lever pull matters too.

[sandyrs]

Fork shudder is much more likely on disc-brakes than cantilevers due to the brake placement..

that is absolutely not true in my experience.

maybe it's because disc forks are typically built much stiffer throughout but i've never had a fork shudder using disc brakes (I did the setup), and i've never *not* had shudder with cantis set up by extremely competent mechanics.

mini-v's are also well known for their ability to eliminate shudder on bikes where canti's cause it. the brake placement is the same.

[ColonelJLloyd]

I want 50mm tires and fenders on my road bike. Guess what that means.

[thwart]

... i've never *not* had shudder with cantis set up by extremely competent mechanics.

Come ride my Moots PSX.

And I certainly don't describe myself that way...

[livingminimal]

I would argue that good cantis allow for the same stopping power -

they literally don't.
I don't know why people keep making this argument.

[livingminimal]

Fork shudder is much more likely on disc-brakes than cantilevers due to the brake placement..

Its literally not.
I don't know why people keep making this argument.

[livingminimal]

i've never had a fork shudder using disc brakes (I did the setup)

I have, and it sucks, just like on Cantis. The difference? its extremely rare.

and i've never *not* had shudder with cantis set up by extremely competent mechanics.

Exactly. The stuff I ride locally on a cross/gravel bike there are 0 instances where I would not get loads of terrifying shudder/chatter, regardless of who set up my brakes. They're cantis, and doing 14% descents on rutted hardpack and sandy gravel will ensure I am squeezing for my life, because I literally am.

mini-v's are also well known for their ability to eliminate shudder on bikes where canti's cause it. the brake placement is the same.

If I ever end up with another canti bike, these are the only brakes I would use.

[ColonelJLloyd]

they literally don't.
I don't know why people keep making this argument.

The argument is usually "if it can lock up the wheel then it's the same". Ok, but what about the braking between none to locking it up? Personally, I find great difference and nuance in speed modulation. That's not to say that rim brakes can't give you good modulation, but it's a "horses for courses" situation to me.

The sillier and just as oft-employed reasoning is "disc brakes aren't necessary". In what world is "necessary" a criteria regarding our toys?

[livingminimal]

The sillier and just as oft-employed reasoning is "disc brakes aren't necessary". In what world is "necessary" a criteria regarding our toys?

I agree with this statement 100%. I am happy for anyone happy on their cantis. Stay safe and have fun, just don't sell me a fictitious bill of goods about comparisons on power/modulation/reliability/chatter.

On the road, my campy calipers stop me just fine, as does my disc setup on the road. I am not going to pretend one isn't a more effective stopper than the other.

[sandyrs]

I agree with this statement 100%. I am happy for anyone happy on their cantis. Stay safe and have fun, just don't sell me a fictitious bill of goods about comparisons on power/modulation/reliability/chatter.

On the road, my campy calipers stop me just fine, as does my disc setup on the road. I am not going to pretend one isn't a more effective stopper than the other.

Backed

[zzy]

As another tall guy, one thing I don't like about cantis is that all the extra brake line and the often awkward hanger bosses lead to mushy feel and noise issues on big bikes. Fork mounted stops go a long way to help (like on your BMtnC). Otherwise brake squeal/shudder is a fact of life (wish I knew that a decade ago). Not many wrenches these days really know how to set them up well either. Honestly, if you aren't riding in muddy stuff mini-Vs are tough to beat, esp because even the cheap ones work great with good pads.

Otherwise, I really like hydro brakes on really large bikes. Much less hand fatigue, esp when loaded touring with a 250lb+ bike + rider. Almost no added mush from the long lines. Great in the wet. Self adjusting (this alone is the selling point vs. Cantis which always need tweaking).

e - worth mentioning that if you want canti stud framesets and 700c rim brake MTB wheels, they have NEVER been cheaper on the used market with everyone going disc these days.

[echelon_john]

Just a gratuitous shot of my 64cm BMC MonsterCross.

[sparky33]

you'll love the Revo-X brakes

indeed, Revox are the best cantilever brakes. Smart design, easy set-up, lots of power.

Though I use hydraulic discs for cyclocross, and I'm pretty happy about that.

[donevwil]

following this with interest. Campy rim brakes on my road bike, Tektro 720 calipers on my fender bike. Thinking about what I would want to have for braking for a next bike for larger tires. Was thinking disc, but this thread has me reconsidering Paul Racer/Racer M or even a high-quality canti.

Anyone have a good reference to optimizing canti setup? Or perhaps someone would start a new thread on that? Seems that those who like them have figured out how to make them work best. My 720s are a lower-end brake that I bet would benefit from being set up better....

Thanks!

If I were to buy an all new monstercross/allroad/yada yada bike with wheels and groupset I'd definitely go disc. Unfortunately I don't fit any stock full bike offerings so it would have to be a custom frameset, new group (I have only Campy 10) and new wheelset path, way too expensive.

The best cantis I've used are the Suntour XC-Pros mentioned above. That said they were only OK with stock pads and set-up with a standard straddle cable, but set themselves apart when I added Mathauser (Yokozuna) Salmon pads and the fore-mentioned Suntour Power Hanger. Older cantis that use post mount pads are far more adjustable/tunable than those using stud mount pads with spherical washers. More time consuming to set up, but better in the end IMO. Also the beefy forged arms of a Suntour or old Shimano canti are far stiffer than a Paul, sheetmetal Mafac, etc. A word about pads, I hate Kool-Stop thinlines. Very little volume and small effective braking area when really on them. They glaze over easily under my 240# and aggressive braking on steep, fast descents. Also, the Kool Stop Salmon formulation is definitely different than that of the original Scott-Mathauser and now Yokozuna Salmons. Kool Stops are noticeably harder (higher durometer) and simply don't work as well as Mathauser/Yokozuna pads.

The Suntours perform best with the lower arm vertical and the straddle cable at the hanger near 90° when applied (Suntour even provide a cut-out diagram in the original instructions). The Power Hanger must maintain close to this angle or performance is sacrificed. I once used the set-up on a 700c bike with 375 AtC and it didn't work well at all, the angle was way too large and that bike ultimately received Mini Motos. My BMC has a 400 AtC and that, apparently, makes all the difference.

The Racer M's on my Potts perform very well after I ditched the thinlines in front in favor of larger salmon Kool Stop Mountain Pads. I'd still like to find a pad with greater volume, but the layout of any Paul brake appears too limiting.

I don't have a pdf of the canti instructions, but here's one for the Power Hanger. It gives you an idea of all the variables in the set-up process.

1697936341

http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1697917931&d=1459817353

[572cv]

I like canti's fine, assuming a set up reasonably well done. I like that they are light and intuitive. I like the stopping power of discs, but have had difficulty getting a subtle but audible squeak-squeak-squeak out of them from time to time. I think the modulation is decent, and of course, the ease of switching wheels with different rim widths is slick. But I really like mini-v's, and my new bike is set up with Paul Minimotos. The front fork is an Enve canti fork, and the frame is an Eriksen, so really solid mounting situations, no shudder. Lots of tire space. I'm still amazed by the light finger pressure needed for braking, not sure if that is the Paul's or the DuraAce levers. The Pauls make for a really well designed, light system.

[KidWok]

Not 'all'..

http://gunnarbikes.com/site/bikes/crosshairs

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c151/TaiLee77/Mobile%20Uploads/20150221_133133_zpscxkugovz.jpg

Yep...I specifically avoided disc brakes for my gravel bike. Disc brake forks just don't have the supple ride quality that I've come to enjoy from something like a Waterford flat crown fork. This frameset came from forum member commfire. I've since had it powder coated and it's my go-to bike for most of my riding, even on paved roads.

Tai

[Clean39T]

^^ I used to ride by that spot every day when commuting from Ravenna to Bellevue in the early '00s...your pic brought back some good memories...though I feel like I can count the number of sunny commutes on one hand... ;)

[ColonelJLloyd]

Disc brake forks just don't have the supple ride quality that I've come to enjoy from something like a Waterford flat crown fork.

This is an often cited reason for rim brakes on bikes and surely there is more deflection from more slender and thin walled steel fork blades. But, at what point do the volume of tires combined with low pressures completely eclipse this? I don't think this has been tested, but my own anecdotal evidence suggests it's somewhere between 23mm/110psi and 50mm/30psi.

[KidWok]

This is an often cited reason for rim brakes on bikes and surely there is more deflection from more slender and thin walled steel fork blades. But, at what point do the volume of tires combined with low pressures completely eclipse this? I don't think this has been tested, but my own anecdotal evidence suggests it's somewhere between 23mm/110psi and 50mm/30psi.

Sure...you could probably run your tires a bit bigger/lower pressure, but the performance and comfort of the fork will be above and beyond whatever ride tuning you can do with the tires.

Tai

[joosttx]

Fork shudder is much more likely on disc-brakes than cantilevers due to the brake placement..

Rubbish.

[ColonelJLloyd]

Sure...you could probably run your tires a bit bigger/lower pressure, but the performance and comfort of the fork will be above and beyond whatever ride tuning you can do with the tires.

Tai

I'm not trying to argue for the sake of it, but what scientific evidence is there of this? This is my point; it's not been quantified. You're suggesting that the steel fork blades are deflecting in a perceptible way while running a 50mm slick with 30psi and in a good (not noodly) manner? And you have experience with this combo? If the fork is deflecting past the point of a tire that fat with that low pressure that sounds like a detriment, not a benefit.

Seems logical to me that the same fork blades that are offering some magical, smoothing ride with 23mm tires at 110psi isn't doing the same thing with 50mm tires at 30psi because the road imperfections are soaked up at the tire before reaching the fork blade.

[echelon_john]

Not true.

A primary reason for fork shudder with cantilevers is the combination of a steerer/stem mounted cable stop, combined with the flexing of the fork blades.

The blades' flexing during braking effectively tension/detension the brake cable between the cable stop and the straddle cable, causing the shudder. The harder you squeeze, the more the fork flexes, the more the effect is amplified.

Discs that use a full run of cable housing (if mechanical) or hose completely negate this phenomenon.

Add in the stiffer/beefier fork blades used in disc fork construction and the risk of shudder is reduced further.

Not saying shudder is impossible with discs, but WAY less likely than with cantis.


Fork shudder is much more likely on disc-brakes than cantilevers due to the brake placement..

[KidWok]

Yeah...I have a pretty decent amount of experience with the Waterford fork. Have spec'ed it for myself twice on Roadies and also twice on Crosshairs. During these times, I've owned a lot of other road and cross bikes using various forks. I've been able to play around with various combinations of wheels, frames, tires, etc. I'm not merely suggesting that the steel fork blades are "deflecting" in a perceptible way...I know it to be true. The taper of the fork offers the effect of a variable spring rate suspension. If you look down, you can see the fork tips floating over imperfections in the road and keeping the tires planted. I've observed this both with 23's at 110psi and 32-35's at 50-60psi.

Running bigger tires with lower volume is a different sensation than having a responsive fork. It's more of a dampening effect, in contrast to the steel fork springing back after deflection. And my point remains that the fork's performance benefits are above and beyond whatever tuning done with tire volume and pressure.

The Waterford cyclocross fork in particular is head and shoulders above various forks for both canti and disc brakes that've I've used, including Serotta, Salsa, Alpha Q, Tange (Soma), generic aluminum, and full titanium. I've put the road version head to head against Reynolds Ouzo Pro, Deda Black Magic, Colnago Precisa, Seven 5E, and lord knows how many other forks. The only thing that has come close to it has been Columbus SLX and Tange Prestige forks of similar taper and curvature.

Tai

I'm not trying to argue for the sake of it, but what scientific evidence is there of this? This is my point; it's not been quantified. You're suggesting that the steel fork blades are deflecting in a perceptible way while running a 50mm slick with 30psi and in a good (not noodly) manner? And you have experience with this combo? If the fork is deflecting past the point of a tire that fat with that low pressure that sounds like a detriment, not a benefit.

Seems logical to me that the same fork blades that are offering some magical, smoothing ride with 23mm tires at 110psi isn't doing the same thing with 50mm tires at 30psi because the road imperfections are soaked up at the tire before reaching the fork blade.

[ColonelJLloyd]

Running bigger tires with lower volume is a different sensation than having a responsive fork. It's more of a dampening effect, in contrast to the steel fork springing back after deflection. And my point remains that the fork's performance benefits are above and beyond whatever tuning done with tire volume and pressure.

And it's your take that this springing benefit will exist no matter how much tire volume and how low the psi? Doesn't seem logical to me that the fork can react the same regardless of tire volume and pressure.

[choke]

Campy vs Shimano, tubular vs clincher, even Lance threads pale in comparison to canti vs disc threads. The manner in which some proponents of disc brakes proselytize is amusing to me....it has a near religious fervor.

[donevwil]

Campy vs Shimano, tubular vs clincher, even Lance threads pale in comparison to canti vs disc threads. The manner in which some proponents of disc brakes proselytize is amusing to me....it has a near religious fervor.

Amusing is a great way to look at it. I especially like comments from "it's newer so it's better" or "it's old tech so it must suck" crowd.

There's been very little disc bashing in this thread, but so many take it as a personal affront that someone might actually be satisfied with the function of their cantilever brakes.

Can't we all just get along????

[KidWok]

Nope...I am saying a fork and a tire do different things. They are different systems. Of course a fork won't perform the same when you add in other variables.

Tai

And it's your take that this springing benefit will exist no matter how much tire volume and how low the psi? Doesn't seem logical to me that the fork can react the same regardless of tire volume and pressure.

[pdmtong]

my inability to go faster in a cross race has never been caused by my fear that I won't be able to stop.



never been concerned about one finger braking or hand fatigue. maybe you need one of these:



https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41TJFsKPwuL.jpg



much cheaper than buying a new bike ;)



Ouch! Rough crowd here !

[nash]

Why is this an issue of contention? They are just two types of brakes. Nerds arguing about which brake is better on the internet. Love it. Let's keep some perspective. Use either, does it matter? Use both, even better.

[TunaAndBikes]

I've only had to clench for dear life when riding in slushy + icy conditions with my cantis, so a point for discs there.
Being able to switch wheel sizes and not having to fondle around for tire widths is another attractive trait of discs.

But two points for cantis because they're lighter weight and less of a general hassle.

Still wouldn't know which to go with if Enve still did a canti cross fork. :confused:

[cinema]

Amusing is a great way to look at it. I especially like comments from "it's newer so it's better" or "it's old tech so it must suck" crowd.

There's been very little disc bashing in this thread, but so many take it as a personal affront that someone might actually be satisfied with the function of their cantilever brakes.

Can't we all just get along????

I'd rather have V brakes than mechanical discs with rotors from ebay. But lets be honest here if you buy true-from-factory shimano ice rotors and shimano hydro brakes and you're still getting disc rub and think canti's brake better... i don't know what to tell you. somethin ain't right. This coming from a guy with cantis on every cross bike.

[Erik_A]

Both the Elite Men’s and Women’s races at the 2016 Cyclocross World Championships were won by riders on canti brakes...

Long live cantilevers!

One bike that I love the design of is the All City Mr. Pink, which comes with long reach Tektro R559 rim brakes, so that it can fit wide rims and 32c tires.

http://theradavist.com/2017/01/the-2017-mr-pink-has-a-carbon-fork/

People ride this road bike way faster than a gravel bike, and in the rain ect., and we all know that long reach caliper rim brakes suck even worse than cantilevers.

I do like that you can share a wheelset on the Mr. Pink with your canti CX bike.

Now, I need to go find that thread where I can tout the benefits of BioPace chainrings...

[crankles]

Both the Elite Men’s and Women’s races at the 2016 Cyclocross World Championships were won by riders on canti brakes...

Long live cantilevers!


Seriously? and what about the rest of the podium in 2016, and the winners in 2017, oh and the winner in 2015?

about the only winners with cantis this year were the Gbr Juniors.

These arguments are silly. Discs (hydro) are a superior brake. Period. Climate change is real. Trump has silly hair.

Whether you need that kind of performance increase is entirely up to you.

[shovelhd]

I had a feeling that the root of this thread had to do with why someone can't sell their frame. Not surprised. I don't like to be cynical but it seems to be unavoidable at times.

In the past week I've been to an official's symposium and a club shop event where we were discussing disc brakes on road and cross bikes. On the road, they are a nightmare for neutral support. There are so many variations that they have to weigh whether they carry complete bikes or wheels in the support cars. There will never be a true standard. At the shop, we were discussing how discs have changed cross racing. On courses that will support it, riders are bombing into corners and slamming on the brakes, a lot like the way rally car drivers race. But on courses where that kind of riding would result in a crash, some riders prefer cantis because its easier to feather the brakes in race conditions. I think this is why you see pros choose disc or canti depending on the course.

[kppolich]

I too prefer canti's

Reason: all my bikes are rim brakes and it gives me the option to swap wheels.

[benb]

I had a feeling that the root of this thread had to do with why someone can't sell their frame. Not surprised. I don't like to be cynical but it seems to be unavoidable at times.

In the past week I've been to an official's symposium and a club shop event where we were discussing disc brakes on road and cross bikes. On the road, they are a nightmare for neutral support. There are so many variations that they have to weigh whether they carry complete bikes or wheels in the support cars. There will never be a true standard. At the shop, we were discussing how discs have changed cross racing. On courses that will support it, riders are bombing into corners and slamming on the brakes, a lot like the way rally car drivers race. But on courses where that kind of riding would result in a crash, some riders prefer cantis because its easier to feather the brakes in race conditions. I think this is why you see pros choose disc or canti depending on the course.

Sounds like folks just need to get used to them, and I still say the road/cross discs still have a lot of room for improvement.

You don't see anyone running V-brakes or Cantis in MTB on courses that favor "feathering" the brakes.

Not really sold on them for road still.. for a gravel/cross/all road type bike absolutely, I'm just not getting worked up about it.

It seems like some of the retro grouchiness here is what was mentioned before a) Someone is worried about selling a bike and/or resale value b) Folks are into having the latest and greatest and upset they'd have to get a whole new bike to say on the "latest and greatest" train c) Afraid of something new and haven't had their eyes opened riding MTBs.

A lot of this is always funny with posts about buying boutique Cantis (some of which are more expensive than plenty of good disc setups) that were never offered stock on anything, then having to swap and tune parts, and then some mystical expert mechanical adjustments and suddenly Cantis are the greatest thing ever.

If they were really great the world wouldn't have moved on, completely ignoring discs Cantis were left behind a long long time ago in favor of V-brakes.

I want brakes that are easy to manufacture, do not require swapping parts to get best performance, do not go out of adjustment as the pads wear, and are resistant to weather. I am still riding Mini-Vs on one bike, I have no intention to replace that bike until something happens to the frame. But IME Both Cantis and Vs are way more likely to die due to winter weather riding than Discs are, and both Cantis and Vs require me to continually tweak the brakes for best performance as the pads wear down. Standard road calipers and discs do not require this IMO. I usually tweak something on my bike equipped with Mini-Vs once a week, same thing or more when it had Cantis.

The Discs I have on my MTB were $200 including levers, lines, fluid, calipers, discs. Paul Cantis are mentioned here a lot, looks like the calipers alone are $240, no thanks.

End result of all this nonsense is road/cross/gravel disc setups are going to mature and pretty soon they will be better in all aspects (except maybe weight) than any rim brakes. They'll stop better, modulate better, and be lower maintenance. They are going to get there. It's already happened on just about every other wheeled vehicle.

[oldpotatoe]

Why is this an issue of contention? They are just two types of brakes. Nerds arguing about which brake is better on the internet. Love it. Let's keep some perspective. Use either, does it matter? Use both, even better.

This..some think it's the very salvation of a crappy bike market.

Campy vs Shimano, tubular vs clincher, even Lance threads pale in comparison to canti vs disc threads. The manner in which some proponents of disc brakes proselytize is amusing to me....it has a near religious fervor.

I don't 'hate' disc brakes but find it tiresome when some say they are 'necessary' to do anything and yer a dumass if you don't agree.

Take a trip to cyclingnews forum, bike section, a gent there is the high priestess of all things disc brake..and you are damned if you disagree.:)

[oldpotatoe]

Seriously? and what about the rest of the podium in 2016, and the winners in 2017, oh and the winner in 2015?

about the only winners with cantis this year were the Gbr Juniors.

These arguments are silly. Discs (hydro) are a superior brake. Period. Climate change is real. Trump has silly hair.

Whether you need that kind of performance increase is entirely up to you.

:p:help::D:)

[shovelhd]

Sounds like folks just need to get used to them

They're pros.

[FlashUNC]

Totally, why would anyone ever want to look for a different brake when cantis worked so excellently:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzZkKE9Z35g

[sandyrs]

Take a trip to cyclingnews forum, bike section, a gent there is the high priestess of all things disc brake..and you are damned if you disagree.:)

That's the crazy thing, those places are much more representative of cycling 'at large' than this forum and discs are the only way to go as far as those people are concerned. Any bikerumor article about basically any kind of bike (including track :) ) has a comment about how it should have disc brakes.

I ride a mix of rim and disc bikes. I am trying to sell my last canti bike because I don't like the way they perform for me on that bike (mostly because they feel so different from hydro discs and I don't like swapping between CX bikes that feel so different), but hell if I'm going to tell anyone they shouldn't be allowed to ride whatever they want.

[Tony]

Totally, why would anyone ever want to look for a different brake when cantis worked so excellently:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzZkKE9Z35g

:D:beer:

[Corso]

I too prefer canti's

Reason: all my bikes are rim brakes and it gives me the option to swap wheels.

I’m 100% in this club.

Applies to my collection of 26” mountain bikes too.