Ot: Nyc '77

[johnmdesigner]

Hunkered down in the storm?
Remember your roots baby!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxZFGf8chg8

[fuzzalow]

As a lifelong New Yorker, I grew up in that and endured the grit, the crime and the sleaze all while being a teenager/young adult, which means it didn't strike me as oppressive as it should have. When you're young you haven't got anything people really wanna steal from you and you get used to anything because unless you lived in one of NYC's war zones, it wasn't THAT bad. Middle class New Yorker was still better than middle class almost anywhere else, right? Even if I didn't know it.

But looking back it is always through the rose tinted glasses of nostalgia. No way anyone wants a return to 1970s NYC. New York is now a city the grapples with a problem centered around too much wealth as opposed to too much sh-t, piss, crime and chaos as from the time of the OP video. That's a good problem to have in spite of the dislocation and inequity downstream from the income stratification integral to living in NYC and also many great cities.

Times Square is like a Disneyland for tourists, real in ways Disney could never be.

Manhattan is like a Disneyland for the rich, real in ways only those living in similar bubbles could understand.

[fiamme red]

No way anyone wants a return to 1970s NYC.Speak for yourself. :)

The super-rich and tourists may love what New York has become, but not all of us middle-class residents do.

[Climb01742]

I was also in the city in '77. Everyone's perspective is different. Somethings were worse in '77, for sure, but some were better. Like a rent-stablized apartment for $250. Two friends and I were in entry-level jobs (as in starting salaries below $10,000/year) and all of us had our own apartments for less than $300/month and we had money to live on, not well but decent enough. Would not want to try being at the bottom of the employment ladder in NYC today.

[fuzzalow]

The super-rich and tourists may love what New York has become, but not all of us middle-class residents do.

I hear you. In a town that attracts wealth from all over the globe, that makes me a nobody too. But this town drives excellence and thrives on intensity so it forces upon us all to find a way.

No great city in any country anywhere is cheap to live in. Some of old time NYC from the era of rent-stabilized apartments still exists but they will vanish with the onslaught of age. There is no easy answer as even a favorable rental via government auspices, like some of the lottery apartments in rental developments in NYC/Brooklyn, will still not meet total demand to say nothing of the income brackets that fall into no man's land as far as urban subsidies and housing access.

It will never be easy. But those who persevere and those who have found a way will each have their own story as to how they did it. Part of having a tale to tell within a mosaic of a million different stories is what goes into making NYC what it is.

[beeatnik]

New York is alright if you like saxophones.

Anyway, LA is the global city of the future. Once we get beyond speculative wealth, that is.

[Tony T]

A good read about that time:

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/615q6zr2LtL._SX331_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg (https://www.amazon.com/Ladies-Gentlemen-Bronx-Burning-Baseball-ebook/dp/B005N8Y5Y6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1489519434&sr=8-1&keywords=the+bronx+is+burning)

[Tony T]

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.56593.1313782190!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/gallery_1200/gal-yankee-covers-25-jpg.jpg

[pinkshogun]

It's fascinating all the different sub cultures in New York and other large cities but prefer the relative quietness of the 'burbs and of course cycling in the country

[tctyres]

I've been here for 7 years. NYC is both great and terrible at the same time. There isn't a lot of middle ground.

I ride a lot through the burbs on the NW side of the city. Some would be OK to live in. Others would be like middle class prison.

[velofinds]

I ride a lot through the burbs on the NW side of the city. Some would be OK to live in. Others would be like middle class prison.

Where is this referring to exactly? (Riverdale? Yonkers?)

[tctyres]

Where is this referring to exactly? (Riverdale? Yonkers?)

Rockland and Bergen counties. There are some pretty cool places. There are some places I wouldn't want to live.

Riverdale is a part of the Bronx.

[fuzzalow]

NYC is both great and terrible at the same time. There isn't a lot of middle ground.

I don't deny I live in a bubble. But I also make every attempt to see outside my bubble so I can stay grounded. Thus my question to you:

From your perspective what is terrible about NYC?

I think I already know the great parts but I could understand the debilitation felt if living here took more outta someone than NYC actually gave back.

[johnmdesigner]

I arrived here in 1979 after escaping a small Midwestern town. Like most transplants I was escaping a world that I didn’t fit into. Maybe it took a lot of balls for a hick who had never been anywhere to pack a suitcase and come here with no job and no money and no prospects. I think it was easier to do back then. You could find work but then it seemed just as hard as now to find a place to live. I started out in an SRO hotel off Park Ave. filled with crazies. One broke into my room in the middle of the night so I slugged him with my T-square. The pigeons used to make love on my window sill and the painting over the bed was signed by all the couples who enjoyed the place over the years. I had enough money to last 2 weeks and I vowed I would never go back to my home town. I managed to find a job in those 2 weeks, an apartment a few weeks later. I told myself I would stay 5 years but ended up staying 38.
I’ve been robbed, burgled, had guns pointed at me, been beaten up but I never had any desire to go back to my previous life. I think that’s something that natives could never understand. That transition and that liberation that changed my life forever.
That part of NYC is disappearing. Walk down the street today and you are confronted with large suburban buildings that do not admit the public. The small shops and the street life is gone. Try making eye contact with the zombies looking at their phones.
Sure it was risky back then to make eye contact with a stranger. But I met a hell of a lot of interesting people that way. I miss that part of NY. Like 6 stool lunch counters in the subway. Camera row on 32nd street. And just walking around and looking at interesting things. Those days are passing. The streets are just as filthy now as then but it’s because the storefronts are empty and no one pays attention.

[velofinds]

Rockland and Bergen counties.

Oh okay. You had said "NW side of the city" so..

[Cicli]

You guys are nuts.

I was born and raised in the LA Basin. Lived there all my life. I am now 60 miles from Chicago and still too close to the city. I could not put up with it. Next move, to the boonies even further. Maybe a nice trailer in the middle of BFE Colorado or Utah.

I wont step foot in NY. Was there once and wont go back. Cant stand the citys.

To each their own.

[johnmdesigner]

You guys are nuts.

I was born and raised in the LA Basin. Lived there all my life. I am now 60 miles from Chicago and still too close to the city. I could not put up with it. Next move, to the boonies even further. Maybe a nice trailer in the middle of BFE Colorado or Utah.

I wont step foot in NY. Was there once and wont go back. Cant stand the citys.

To each their own.

I like the peace and quiet of the country as well. I had a house in Upstate NY for years. It was the transition from city to country life that fascinated me. I don’t think I would be happy if I couldn’t experience both. But I probably wouldn’t be happy if I couldn’t come to the city now and then. I’m not as fortunate as Fuzz to be able to possess both. So here I am. And yes we are all nuts. Wouldn’t have it any other way.

[bob heinatz]

A lot of interesting takes. Raised just outside of SF in over populated Bay Area. I hate the big cities. To much traffic, crime, cost of living ect. Live in the beautiful Willamette Valley in Oregon on pretty property. Incredible rural biking roads where most drivers respect bike riders. Give me the small towns anyday.

[BobO]

I have a slightly different take. It's not that I dislike NY or any other big city. They just don't have a lot that interests me. I have spent time in NY at various different points and honestly, it just bores the hell out of me.

[cloudguy]

This about sums up NY for me:

http://www.theonion.com/article/84-million-new-yorkers-suddenly-realize-new-york-c-18003

[Mr. Pink]

Speak for yourself. :)

The super-rich and tourists may love what New York has become, but not all of us middle-class residents do.

Wait, what? Did you actually live in NY in 77? The murder rate was absurd. I was a cab driver in 78, fully conscious that about a dozen cabbies were shot dead for the cash in their pocket every year. The subways were broken down and utterly filthy. THE BRONX WAS BURNING! Cmon, man. I know it's bad with all the rich taking over life these days, but, really, read your history.

[Mr. Pink]

This about sums up NY for me:

http://www.theonion.com/article/84-million-new-yorkers-suddenly-realize-new-york-c-18003

Hilarious.

[54ny77]

Can't imagine what it was like in '77.

Been there since mid 90's and while now in 'burbs, I couldn't imagine starting out now like I did back then.

Rented a room in a flat with some buddies, paying maybe several hundred a month. Didnt make a lot but still, had ridiculous fun and worked like a dog. Today that same apt. rents for literally 20x + as much.

Mind boggling!

Still, coffee's a buck fifty on the corner and theres no place like it on earth.

[charliedid]

The music and art tho...

[lovebird]

I grew up in the Bronx in the 1970s. Not the worst part, but definitely not the best. Every year the front line of burning buildings got a few blocks closer.

I took the IRT elevated 4 train every school day from 1979-83 to high school in Manhattan. From the train windows you'd often see a panorama of buildings on fire and of course dozens of burned out shells with metal plate "windows" painted to look like curtains. Even painted on vases with painted on flowers. A kid I went to high school with was stabbed to death getting off the subway and the thieves only got the pocket change he was carrying. The NY Post ran the headline "The 39 Cents" over a menacing looking picture of a stairway in some dirty subway station. Even 16 year olds got the Hitchcock reference.

Hard to capture what the city was like for people who only know the nyc of today but for some reason I miss those days. Or maybe it's more correct to say that something is missing today. I'm probably just getting old...

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[fuzzalow]

But I probably wouldn’t be happy if I couldn’t come to the city now and then. I’m not as fortunate as Fuzz to be able to possess both. So here I am. And yes we are all nuts.

I am a full time resident of Manhattan and I no longer own my home in Manhasset, Long Island; we sold it to move here. Manhasset hardly qualifies as country living and as nice as it was, we would not return to that kind of life - but it admittedly is easy to walk away from something once you've had it. I raised a family out there and we have no regrets. So here we are and not for a moment do I think we are nuts for doin' it.

There is something alluring about the imagery of dystopian Manhattan only from the safety of retrospection.

I went to high school in Manhattan. What NYer who lived through the 70's wasn't mugged, or had their house burgled or otherwise experienced crime first hand? Son of Sam. Roving marauders through neighborhoods. It was almost a relief when the first wave of the cocaine wars took hold because they pretty much kept the violence amongst themselves as long as you weren't where you shouldn't be and wound up getting caught in the crossfire. Gang shootings in Chinatown. RFK Jr. was mugged in his BMW while trying to score drugs in Harlem. On and on. There was nothing to miss about that NYC.

The glamour in the grittiness of 1970s NYC was best enjoyed like Mick Jagger, Andy Warhol and their Studio 54 ilk did: from behind the glass of a moving limousine. NYC back then was well and truly fcuked up.

[Climb01742]

What NYer who lived through the 70's wasn't mugged, or had their house burgled or otherwise experienced crime first hand?

Me. My heart was broken two or three times, but that's it. Maybe I was lucky.

The truth of NYC in the '70s is somewhere between hellhole and rose-tinted memories. I lived in two apts, one on 106th and one on 107th streets, both near B'way -- when a block on 106th had the highest murder rate in Manhattan. I worked crazy hours and ran when I got home from work, usually at 9-10pm. Half the time I ran south, down Riverside, often through RSP. The other half, I ran north, through Harlem. No one ever hassled me, much less anything worse. Mostly what I heard was, 'You're crazy."

Subways were crappy and if you weren't aware, they could be dangerous, but most NYers develop a sense of which cars to get out of and what platform not to stand on.

It was no wonderland but it wasn't Blade Runner, either.

NYC now is lots of things, but what it isn't is authentic. In the 70s it was awful in many ways, but it was also real. And it was accessible as a place to live and work to many, many more people.

[merlinmurph]

I'm not a city guy and have no interest at all in living anywhere close to NYC, but I totally understand why someone else would want to live there. Everything is close, there's always something going on - just not for me, way too many people. I like being able to go out my door and go for a walk in the woods or ride my bike with barely any cars. Gee, people are different and want different things.

I watched the first 5 minutes of the video and want to watch the rest of it. I'm old enough (63) to remember '77 and though I have only been to NYC a few times, I remember the sh*thole that was portrayed back then.

[fuzzalow]

NYC now is lots of things, but what it isn't is authentic. In the 70s it was awful in many ways, but it was also real. And it was accessible as a place to live and work to many, many more people.

I agree that there was always a mover 'n shaker class that worked and lived in NYC as well as a greater range of diversity across the city. And with New York revitalized into the great city it was meant to be, it is inevitable that some of that diverse socioeconomic vitality was crowded out and that is a shame. But whaddaya gonna do? Don't blame "rich people", blame the human nature the attracts people to want to live in great cities.

NYC authentic? As in Paul Simon's "Me and Julio Down by the Schoolyard" authentic? Yeah some of that is gone replaced by self-congratulatory hipster in some quarters. But I don't see or experience NYC as inauthentic probably because in living here I see it from inside the bubble and NYers, my neighbors, are some of the nicest people you'd ever meet. I think the inauthentic people you refer to are those that haven't figured out who and what they are and how they fit in - because this city allows anyone to take a shot at being anyone or anything before rendering judgement or discarding them as insignificant.

I am not the best world traveler but I don't think there is any city on earth that can rival New York City except possibly Tokyo or Paris.

[fiamme red]

Wait, what? Did you actually live in NY in 77? The murder rate was absurd. I was a cab driver in 78, fully conscious that about a dozen cabbies were shot dead for the cash in their pocket every year. The subways were broken down and utterly filthy. THE BRONX WAS BURNING! Cmon, man. I know it's bad with all the rich taking over life these days, but, really, read your history.Yes, I did live in Manhattan in 1977. Statistically, there was a lot more crime then, but interestingly, the only two times I've ever been mugged were during Bloomberg's reign. The streets are still filthy, though the graffiti is gone.

[johnmdesigner]

Kramer: Oh. Well listen, I almost forgot to ask you. What happened at the
funeral? Now, did you talk to Alec berg?

Jerry: Yeah, I saw him.

Kramer: Alright, so he's gonna give you the hockey tickets, huh?

Jerry: Well, not exactly.

Kramer: He's mad, isn't he? See, I knew it.

Jerry: I don't know if he's mad.

Kramer: Alright, so what happened when you saw him?

Jerry: Well, I didn't really get a good 'hello', but see, I was at a funeral.

Kramer: Uh huh.

Jerry: See, so I don't know if I got a funeral 'hello' or he was mad because he
didn't get his day-after 'thank you'.

Kramer: See, I told you, Jerry, I told you!

Jerry: Look, what do you want me to do?

Kramer: I want you to get on this phone and give him his 'thank you'!

Jerry: No. No, I can't!

Kramer: Jerry, this is the way society functions. Aren't you a part of
society? Because if you don't want to be a part of society, Jerry, why don't
you just get in your car and move to the East Side!

Jerry: Look, we got five hours before the game. I am betting it was a funeral
'hello'. He knows we're here, he knows the number, he knows we want to go.
There's plenty of time for him to call and give us the tickets.

Kramer: You stubborn, stupid, silly man!

[johnmdesigner]

I agree that there was always a mover 'n shaker class that worked and lived in NYC as well as a greater range of diversity across the city. And with New York revitalized into the great city it was meant to be, it is inevitable that some of that diverse socioeconomic vitality was crowded out and that is a shame. But whaddaya gonna do? Don't blame "rich people", blame the human nature the attracts people to want to live in great cities.

NYC authentic? As in Paul Simon's "Me and Julio Down by the Schoolyard" authentic? Yeah some of that is gone replaced by self-congratulatory hipster in some quarters. But I don't see or experience NYC as inauthentic probably because in living here I see it from inside the bubble and NYers, my neighbors, are some of the nicest people you'd ever meet. I think the inauthentic people you refer to are those that haven't figured out who and what they are and how they fit in - because this city allows anyone to take a shot at being anyone or anything before rendering judgement or discarding them as insignificant.

I am not the best world traveler but I don't think there is any city on earth that can rival New York City except possibly Tokyo or Paris.

Everyone is just waiting for me to give you a thump about this elitist bull**** but I will resist falling into the trap. "Great city it was meant to be?" Oyh!

[Dired]

http://payload.cargocollective.com/1/0/10999/1171757/weegee444.jpg

Love this thread.

[johnmdesigner]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAPbZDit5_w

[beeatnik]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVZ3mKpWF68

[Bob Ross]

I don't think there is any city on earth that can rival New York City except possibly Tokyo or Paris.

Rival it in terms of what?

I spent my formative years -- 1971-78, age 10-17 -- in Rockland County, so I visited NYC fairly regularly in the 70s. In 1987 (after undergrad and career building in Boston) I moved to NYC, lived here for 5 years, then went back to Boston to get a graduate degree, and came back to NYC in 2000, been here ever since.

It's definitely a very different city than it was in the 70s. It's a different city than it was in '86. And it's a different city than it was even as recently as '00.

But the thing that's been the same about all those different eras, and all my different stints as an NYC resident, is this: If you don't take advantage of the resources/opportunities that NYC offers, it's just a big noisy expensive city where you can survive without owning a car.

Now, I'm sure NYC offers more resources/opportunities than most cities in the world -- so perhaps that's how it's unrivaled by any except Tokyo or Paris? -- but there's nothing about living in NYC that compels one, much less demands one, to take advantage of those resources/opportunities. They could just be a distraction. It's entirely possible to live here and not take advantage of anything that makes it quintessentially "New York City".

I don't want a city that rivals that; I want a city whose uniqueness pervades everything about it such that I can't help but take advantage of its resources/opportunities. The only demand NYC makes of its residents is survival.

[velofinds]

I don't get what the big deal is. Undoubtedly, there are positives and negatives, of which both run the gamut from the trivial to the profound. For me, it's a net-positive; for others, it's a net-negative -- maybe even hugely so. I get that, and I wouldn't try to convince the latter group otherwise. NYC is certainly not for everyone.

[johnmdesigner]

My 3rd job was at an advertising agency in an old parking garage over the entrance to the Lincoln Tunnel. That was 1982. It was street walker paradise in those days and they would be standing by the entrance when you left for the evening.
One day the brand manager for Pillsbury traveled from Minneapolis to our offices for a meeting. He was lamenting with the owner the hazards he faced just coming to our offices. As he crossed his legs we noticed he had a used condom stuck to the bottom of his shoe.

[paredown]

We did a couple of years in Brooklyn when we moved back from Yrup, and then moved out to Rockland County.

So I'm in the city infrequently--but I have to agree with the pro side on this--there is nowhere else like NYC that I have seen. Yes it can be incredibly irritating (I've been in that traffic jam on the Onion piece), or worse--like the time that I was trying to get somewhere and there was a crash on BQE--and we sat in our cars for two hours...) Yes to the noise, the honking (an NYC thing)--when I clamber up to daylight after the train ride in, the city hits me like a wave--too much input, auditory, sensory--too much motion, too many people.

But then I get my city legs back, and I revel in it--sights, sounds, peeps, craziness...

I loved when I was able to ride my bike down Broadway and deke with the cabs, love the art, the theater (which we can't really afford of late).

I was only in the city a few times in the '80s--tail end of the graffitied subway cars, dangerous nabes and needing to have your street face on when you were out and about, and hearing stories from my friends who grew up in the Village (or performed there) in the early '70s--I wish I could time travel back to earlier versions of New York--but I find the one that I visit still fascinating.

[paredown]

My 3rd job was at an advertising agency in an old parking garage over the entrance to the Lincoln Tunnel. That was 1982. It was street walker paradise in those days and they would be standing by the entrance when you left for the evening.
One day the brand manager for Pillsbury traveled from Minneapolis to our offices for a meeting. He was lamenting with the owner the hazards he faced just coming to our offices. As he crossed his legs we noticed he had a used condom stuck to the bottom of his shoe.
Heh--we used to call them 'orifice workers'.

[choke]

For whatever reason this thread reminds me of this.....

Green acres is the place for me.
Farm livin' is the life for me.
Land spreadin' out so far and wide
Keep Manhattan, just give me that countryside.

New York is where I'd rather stay.
I get allergic smelling hay.
I just adore a penthouse view.
Dah-ling I love you but give me Park Avenue.

[johnmdesigner]

Heh--we used to call them 'orifice workers'.

We had a lady from Long Island (I’ll call her Laura) working in my department. If anything she was about 4 foot tall in platform shoes. Mean as a pit bull if you got on her bad side. This was 1983.
She had a boyfriend who worked a few blocks away so they would get together in his car at lunch time for some “quality time” on 39th street.
The cops busted her for solicitation and she got so mad she knocked down a 6 foot cop during the arrest (he never pressed charges for the obvious reasons).
I had to leave work to go down to the precinct to bail her out.
The owner of our company laughed his a** off.

[Climb01742]

Who doesn't gaze back fondly?

[Tony T]

….and this one (`75):

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2006/12/28/nyregion/28veto_lg.jpg

[fuzzalow]

Everyone is just waiting for me to give you a thump about this elitist bull**** but I will resist falling into the trap. "Great city it was meant to be?" Oyh!

I am no exponent for poseur elitism. So if I thought I deserved a thump, then I'll take my lumps. But there was nothing elitist (i.e. conferring inferiority to others) or bull$h1t (i.e. untrue) about anything in my post which you responded to. If you're gonna call me out on posting elitist bull*** then take your best shot at cut-throating the crazy stupidity in what I wrote. Unless if to your mind just simply calling something elitist bull*** as a label is all that is required.

I was sincere in the points I was making.

As far as NYC being a city meant for greatness - that was an honest appraisal too. Look, the United States of America is the richest, most powerful nation state on earth. It is only logical that at least one of the cities of the United States of America should by all rights and endowments be a great city of the world if only by the sole virtue of this city being uplifted by standing on the shoulders of the most powerful nation state on earth. It also stands to reason that by history and prestige a great city might arise from one of the three great cities from among those of the founding 13 colonies: Boston, New York and Philadelphia.

A great city I define as both possessing and exercising wealth, power and influence. With at least these three elements is the gravitation towards the critical mass to engender and perpetuate more of the same. This is what makes for a great city; not a city defined as the one most attractive to my preference. If the city intrinsic vibe(s) and my preference(s) are complementary then so much the better. If not, then this city will grind me into nothingness.

Rival it in terms of what?

I spent my formative years -- 1971-78, age 10-17 -- in Rockland County, so I visited NYC fairly regularly in the 70s. In 1987 (after undergrad and career building in Boston) I moved to NYC, lived here for 5 years, then went back to Boston to get a graduate degree, and came back to NYC in 2000, been here ever since.

It's definitely a very different city than it was in the 70s. It's a different city than it was in '86. And it's a different city than it was even as recently as '00.

But the thing that's been the same about all those different eras, and all my different stints as an NYC resident, is this: If you don't take advantage of the resources/opportunities that NYC offers, it's just a big noisy expensive city where you can survive without owning a car.

Now, I'm sure NYC offers more resources/opportunities than most cities in the world -- so perhaps that's how it's unrivaled by any except Tokyo or Paris? -- but there's nothing about living in NYC that compels one, much less demands one, to take advantage of those resources/opportunities. They could just be a distraction. It's entirely possible to live here and not take advantage of anything that makes it quintessentially "New York City".

I don't want a city that rivals that; I want a city whose uniqueness pervades everything about it such that I can't help but take advantage of its resources/opportunities. The only demand NYC makes of its residents is survival.

I respect your view, how could I not? What you just wrote encapsulates what you feel important for how you choose to prioritize how you wanna live.

There's too much nuance for me to answer what you've posted above and I'm not sure it matters to either of us anyway.

You wanna knock NYC, fine. All the criticism is not that far off base but, in fairness, what NYC does have is also unequalled - as long as you are open to whatever that quality is.

I love this town.

[fuzzalow]

Oh yeah, what was the point of this thread anyways? Whatever it was, I missed it.:o

[OtayBW]

I grew up in the suburbs of NYC in the 60s-70s and moved to rural Tennessee for 10 yrs followed by 12 more years in the SW Virginia Highlands....and then I moved away to the boonies! The city definately has a ton going for it and is interesting for me for short visits, but I just do not get the concept of living there, and even less the notion of actually riding there. Riding in the city is completely counter to most all of the reasons that I ride: fresh air, peace and beauty of nature, solitude, fast/windy roads, hills, seeing new places. Riding in the city? I just don't 'get it', but I don't have to. :cool:

[Tony T]

Riding in NYC is just for commuting.

[choke]

I grew up in the suburbs of NYC in the 60s-70s and moved to rural Tennessee for 10 yrs followed by 12 more years in the SW Virginia Highlands....and then I moved away to the boonies! The city definately has a ton going for it and is interesting for me for short visits, but I just do not get the concept of living there, and even less the notion of actually riding there. Riding in the city is completely counter to most all of the reasons that I ride: fresh air, peace and beauty of nature, solitude, fast/windy roads, hills, seeing new places. Riding in the city? I just don't 'get it', but I don't have to. :cool:I could never live in a city, but I've always said that I think it's wonderful that so many people do desire to live there....it keeps them from moving to where I am. :)

[beeatnik]

Oh yeah, what was the point of this thread anyways? Whatever it was, I missed it.:o

That the East Coast is so weird!

:beer:

:D

[Tony T]

Oh yeah, what was the point of this thread anyways? Whatever it was, I missed it.:o

NYC 1977

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/be/Talking_Heads_77.jpg/220px-Talking_Heads_77.jpg

https://media.giphy.com/media/xT0BKFZgaGq6af8hZ6/giphy.gif

[bironi]

Seems like most that have spent much time in the city are pretty passionate about it in their own ways. Thanks, a good winter read.:beer:

[johnmdesigner]

Oh yeah, what was the point of this thread anyways? Whatever it was, I missed it.:o

Exactly. You did miss it.

[fuzzalow]

Exactly. You did miss it.

OK. As a matter of courtesy for my inadequacy on the uptake, would you mind tellin' me what was your point? 'Cos if there was something other than a hatchet job about a NYC that doesn't exist anymore, I dunno what's goin' on here. Thanks.

[beeatnik]

On a related note (and by no means an attempt to derail the thread), a few months back I almost lost a friend because I, inelegantly, expressed nostalgia for an LA which no longer exists. I said, "I remember when you could walk 15 miles and you wouldn't see a white face."

The central City of Los Angeles was mostly abandoned by "whites" for a generation after the Watts Riots.

http://la.curbed.com/2016/4/19/11460390/los-angeles-population-boom

LA is so weird.

[johnmdesigner]

OK. As a matter of courtesy for my inadequacy on the uptake, would you mind tellin' me what was your point? 'Cos if there was something other than a hatchet job about a NYC that doesn't exist anymore, I dunno what's goin' on here. Thanks.

I have had a NY experience. So have you. They are quite different.
I hold no grudge against NY. For me to say so would be to admit to throwing away my entire life.
I talk about my experiences here with a decent amount of humor. Yes, I suffered but I have no one else to blame except myself. Perhaps you suffered here too.
The city has a dark side and it is that side that makes it interesting. It makes it unique. Not really American and not really like anywhere else.
I just can’t clinically analyze it in the manner that you do. It just sounds like a NYT article about France where some reporter tries to explain why the French behave the way they do. And they can’t.

[johnmdesigner]

Sometimes when the weather is nice I'll hop the train and go out to Jackson Heights. A place where perhaps 30 different nationalities exist in a rather limited area. Where you can have 30 different kinds of food. Where people from all over the world have (by necessity) learned to get along (more or less).
Walk into a Yemeni restaurant and sit down. There's no judgement. The're happy to serve you a meal. Invite them to sit down and join you and they'll tell you something you didn't know about their country. How they came to be here. How it was for them. They ask you about your life. What it's like to grow up here.
That is what is so special about living here. And why it's so important for it not to be replaced by a Starbucks.

[fuzzalow]

I have had a NY experience. So have you. They are quite different.
I hold no grudge against NY. For me to say so would be to admit to throwing away my entire life.
I talk about my experiences here with a decent amount of humor. Yes, I suffered but I have no one else to blame except myself. Perhaps you suffered here too.
The city has a dark side and it is that side that makes it interesting. It makes it unique. Not really American and not really like anywhere else.
I just can’t clinically analyze it in the manner that you do. It just sounds like a NYT article about France where some reporter tries to explain why the French behave the way they do. And they can’t.

No one, least of all me, would dispute the NYC can be a tough town. I hope for the best in whatever you are going through and that you persevere and get to a state you want or can work with. And the sun will rise tomorrow.

The 7 train is the miracle conveyor of the New York City melting pot that brings much of the world for the price of a token, which is what old NYers like me still call a subway fare slide on a MetroCard.

Be well.

[velofinds]

On a related note (and by no means an attempt to derail the thread), a few months back I almost lost a friend because I, inelegantly, expressed nostalgia for an LA which no longer exist. I said, "I remember when you could walk 15 miles and you wouldn't see a white face."

The central City of Los Angeles was mostly abandoned by "whites" for a generation after the Watts Riots.

http://la.curbed.com/2016/4/19/11460390/los-angeles-population-boom

LA is so weird.

This Doors video always had nice B-roll of El Ley I thought.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDlx-ZUj9qs

Edit: this one by RHCP also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwlogyj7nFE

[johnmdesigner]

No one, least of all me, would dispute the NYC can be a tough town. I hope for the best in whatever you are going through and that you persevere and get to a state you want or can work with. And the sun will rise tomorrow.

The 7 train is the miracle conveyor of the New York City melting pot that brings much of the world for the price of a token, which is what old NYers like me still call a subway fare slide on a MetroCard.

Be well.

It's not really necessary to treat me like a potential suicide victim. I can assure you I am quite happy with my life.

Just to drift off topic for a moment;
During the first Gulf War, I was a businessman in Paris working for an American company. It was difficult being introduced in that manner because the French people I encountered had a rather low opinion of Americans. Even though we all came from NYC my bosses treated the French in like manner, blowing them off as insignificant. They ended up being hated for the stereotype the French had created for them.
I tried a different approach. I mentioned the fine meal I had had the night before. The magnificent buildings I had walked passed on the way to the meeting. My hopes to see more. They warmed to me because I wasn’t what they had expected.
What is my point? Well, if I hadn’t lived in NYC among peoples from all nations I probably wouldn’t have been able to see the good in everyone and be able to express it. I didn’t have to speak their language - they just made me feel welcome. That’s what living here has given me. It’s a shame that not everyone in America is able to experience that. And the fact that that aspect of NYC is slowly being swept away is distressing to me.

[Mr. Pink]

Riding in NYC is just for commuting.

Not really. If you're an adrenaline junky, there's a lot of thrills. A lot. Where else can you ride faster than most car traffic, dodging all sorts of stuff. Really does favor the sprinters.

[Mr. Pink]

I grew up in the suburbs of NYC in the 60s-70s and moved to rural Tennessee for 10 yrs followed by 12 more years in the SW Virginia Highlands....and then I moved away to the boonies! The city definately has a ton going for it and is interesting for me for short visits, but I just do not get the concept of living there, and even less the notion of actually riding there. Riding in the city is completely counter to most all of the reasons that I ride: fresh air, peace and beauty of nature, solitude, fast/windy roads, hills, seeing new places. Riding in the city? I just don't 'get it', but I don't have to. :cool:

The reason people live there is to be as close as possible to their very interesting and well paying jobs. The people who work for a living, I mean. Not the trust fund hipsters.

[beeatnik]

Edit: this one by RHCP also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwlogyj7nFE

Yep, not a white face (other than Kiedis) in that streetscape.

RHCP achieving mainstream MTV status confirms the existence of Satan.

[fuzzalow]

That the East Coast is so weird!

:beer:

:D

Weirdness is both relative and regional.

Every time I read an edition of The Hollywood Reporter I can't fathom the kind of lifestyle and consumerism of West Coast elites. Heck, my bubble is the same as your bubble, only different!

[johnmdesigner]

One last story then I'm out.

I worked in an advertising agency in the early 80's. Cocaine use in the creative fields was pretty rampant at the time. My boss was pretty addicted as was the owner and his two sons. One of the salesmen was the main supplier to the office. Funny if you were a grunt working there you never had to spend money on drugs, it always found its way to you. Favors were asked with an enticing line left on the drafting table. My boss was never in the office after Wednesdays and so the secretaries would go in his office and run their finger around his desk drawer looking for scraps.
I was working the art department turning my boss’s scribbles into reality. There was an army of illustrators and artists working there but organizing a presentation was sometimes difficult. And his scribbles were, well, up for interpretation. Sometimes I would arrive to find a fresh pile of scribbles on my desk only to have these “reinterpreted” later in the day after the salesman had arrived in the office. The amount of work he produced was unbelievable and it amazed me that he could still get up in front of corporate heads and make a presentation. He really could sell you anything if he decided he was going to sell it to you.
I worked freelance for interior designers on the side back then and they were just as wacked. Creative meetings always started with a treat. A field trip to a celebrity’s home to take measurements offered a few more treats. I never understood how anything got done but somehow it always did. I knew several designers who lost their businesses due to their addictions.
Christmas time the boss’s son came into my office with one of those plastic 35 mm film cans, took the lid off and proceeded to pour a small Mt. Fuji of coke on my desk. That is a LOT of coke. “Merry Christmas”!
We had a fabulous photo studio in this warehouse and we spent weekends and nights (as we were awake most of the time) taking pictures or roaming the streets in Hell’s Kitchen with our cameras. A bike ride on a hot summer night in Central Park was usually suggested. No need to worry about the cops because they wouldn’t set foot in the park and you could usually outsprint the muggers and the zombies standing in the middle of the road. Those evenings we rode with a large well sharpened straight screwdriver in the back pocket.
Those were the days but as with such things you either gave them up or they killed you. A few people I knew didn’t make it. I finally had to work about 5 days and night’s straight setting up stores for a job in California and collapsed from exhaustion. I came back to NY, quit my job and gave it up.

[paredown]

It's not really necessary to treat me like a potential suicide victim. I can assure you I am quite happy with my life.

Just to drift off topic for a moment;
During the first Gulf War, I was a businessman in Paris working for an American company. It was difficult being introduced in that manner because the French people I encountered had a rather low opinion of Americans. Even though we all came from NYC my bosses treated the French in like manner, blowing them off as insignificant. They ended up being hated for the stereotype the French had created for them.
I tried a different approach. I mentioned the fine meal I had had the night before. The magnificent buildings I had walked passed on the way to the meeting. My hopes to see more. They warmed to me because I wasn’t what they had expected.
What is my point? Well, if I hadn’t lived in NYC among peoples from all nations I probably wouldn’t have been able to see the good in everyone and be able to express it. I didn’t have to speak their language - they just made me feel welcome. That’s what living here has given me. It’s a shame that not everyone in America is able to experience that. And the fact that that aspect of NYC is slowly being swept away is distressing to me.
We had similar experiences in Germany--starting with selecting a house to rent. They showed us all these god-awful huge houses (I suppose the German equivalent of McMansions)--"You Americans like big houses' they'd say emphatically. Then we chose the smallest of what they showed us because it was beautiful, and it was 'You're not typical Americans'. My German teacher was so surprised that we made German friends and socialized with them--very few of her American students lived outside the English speaking ghettos, or engaged with the locals--certainly not to the point of doing day-trips with them.

Back to NYC--I remember visiting a friend's renovation project in Sunset Park in the '80s and being overwhelmed with the sights and sounds--multi-culti cacaphony. At first it was off-putting, but walking around the nabe to get supplies and it was clear--these were nice people trying (for the most part) to get ahead, and that energy and extroversion was cool.

I can see how people who come in to NY for a short visit can leave with a really negative impression of crowds, stank, high prices and a kind of mayhem, but if you are around for a while you get to see and appreciate other stuff--quiet corners, great encounters with people from somewhere else and a richness that is rare in American cities--in large part because white flight hollowed out other cities like Baltimore and left the buildings but not the energy...

[fuzzalow]

I can see how people who come in to NY for a short visit can leave with a really negative impression of crowds, stank, high prices and a kind of mayhem, but if you are around for a while you get to see and appreciate other stuff--quiet corners, great encounters with people from somewhere else and a richness that is rare in American cities--

Momentary quiet and even solitude, as measured in square feet, is a treasured thing. But it happens and the quiet found amidst the din is a contrast in intensity that is truly remarkable. Central Park is a cherished refuge when the interludes can be found - in fact those moments are taken almost in a manner of "catch as catch can". On the weekends after a snow or rain, I walk over to the Park just to get the moments before they are gone.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/HwocDzpRj7We-_g4OwMbrIejb8MQgws70pcZrj2elJVjNiCcdTnvYzGa7SaMAd5 kon0HjxtlDaShtckm0AG5tZtBFBqh8gTw-_yVdR0pO1HBB5XBG6erxvZObhgxTzeP9iD35IKQNG8n-0bPy77-nsnCrKBD3qSeY4DyL8XZmAP_l_doKc2xP7lcjDDY7noQhZBqK9 gWuHIHTTqzo-rBE4-euYX0rLDG0MvzxqJGo72F_B7iVqyYSK9nhJsznEbP9VquQ7J1d rZLpWbasoOWK1acbmvv0nQwkLZoygTnC3Zof-vgKuMcfCYbf9rlRYtYD7lyObU1KKU3MEbmh9uGmRmgNFWx7AZ8 4Hm04Ku2GmOu59_6D4G7XEO576elnN2dKAUU2PQinq_aiXBu0n VNIz1Lol5YEBUtFu1L1G8P0jVeitTJcLI_O745mUYyu_LUq7VM 9b88k82UI4dqxMk8952W2LXpGj8bzahSQWewBblKuO1xaRtRYc 3RfQeFaGHqcVI2co9rFu0WjVBwDgrLCNxQk8UtWN4AvpViWzmq q_qqeGbBVNvqU4ZOuw7AqlrskVqZ4mWF0NOxTQTVIaMI5wPXrH FCYx0onnab_o14MT8NtQIQkCDD=w651-h434-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/i2MAZ42TXTnk9P1xmWmQwaPwQi0WGM6OHZRrguBUk8xRj5vpYt zlwga1-lprNtxaNkPtqgbiqCY4tc89o4nfEPNGIw7g8mouJoH8ziNmmpg ylggzPMi7Ztx1lhTBo1pzRWxW1kGeh3VpGaw-2k0I2slbH_tocY8feU2Udu3ylUWKmZYljy1rsmwmKQOyqiAbke _yzU6lqjEHIqHCULPpukx4Ffz9gJMNG8AdNBBKD5646a67oeL4 V2_RNoxyaZaxi5pJeRyDTdvV_NEBOfLvOw-z9X-KGr5yAkJHQ_nMXTT-91271vnH6RQewSIKvsj0-3I9eM6SQQdtR0DPxI-np6qNWYhZKYWUawCFv7zUjylztdZZcnLtDdWKlwOdikDHjA_AO UXC1C7xAMRi2HUrFA3KdKa2IJwWhiqmJI_KrmqMBSGpdWeTubz Lqd_sIb1L0BH8380eH6pS72fM6IF8YLoxf5Jqtfa2K8GJP5Uyf Pu3v2mJWEbjWihEI0zrC31rwARUrpHvDYUS3fm56bAJ2rum_Uq gJpozoB87PaB73zAn5QJ2G4viLXhLGCa8qCM2q5bSwpSfhEKwh T_4MP3Cz47cC-YLuQCTp6HbLPVhBDZaf8a5Pqx0=w651-h867-no

[Climb01742]

The morning after a snowstorm you really can have Central Park to yourself. The beauty is remarkable, but the silence and solitude can be almost otherworldly. I always tried to run in the park before dawn after snows so I could see only my footsteps in the snow on the park drive. Beauty may be one of the city's best kept secrets.

[fuzzalow]

The morning after a snowstorm you really can have Central Park to yourself. The beauty is remarkable, but the silence and solitude can be almost otherworldly. I always tried to run in the park before dawn after snows so I could see only my footsteps in the snow on the park drive. Beauty may be one of the city's best kept secrets.

Walking through the Park during a light snowfall is sublime. Catch the timing right and you get the crunch of fresh snow underfoot, almost as the bass notes, while the almost eerie silence is accented by the crystalline ting in the sound of snowflakes falling. The presentation is best at night with the snowflakes accentuated by the parklamps and the Manhattan skyline majestic as a backdrop.

I wouldn't join you for a run in the Park before dawn but would suggest brunch at a far less disciplined hour - we could go to La Mirabelle on W86th which is in the neighborhood and is very good.

Certainly NYC is not for everyone. And I don't mean to sound like advocating it as the end-all and be-all of places. But what I just described about the Park is free albeit the brunch followup is not.

Life, no matter where one lives, is what you make of it.

[54ny77]

This is awesome!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRv7G7WpOoU

:beer: :hello:

[Mr. Pink]

Man, doing that without a helmet is pretty dumb.

[colker]

Technology created a world entirely different reality from 77. I am talking cell phones and social networking. We are in the outer space rght now. Earth is gone.

PS: NYC was culturally relevant once. Not anymore.

[johnmdesigner]

Technology created a world entirely different reality from 77. I am talking cell phones and social networking. We are in the outer space rght now. Earth is gone.

PS: NYC was culturally relevant once. Not anymore.

Sorry but that's just not true. Living in harmony and reality is more relevent than ever.

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

Sometimes when the weather is nice I'll hop the train and go out to Jackson Heights. A place where perhaps 30 different nationalities exist in a rather limited area. Where you can have 30 different kinds of food. Where people from all over the world have (by necessity) learned to get along (more or less).
Walk into a Yemeni restaurant and sit down. There's no judgement. The're happy to serve you a meal. Invite them to sit down and join you and they'll tell you something you didn't know about their country. How they came to be here. How it was for them. They ask you about your life. What it's like to grow up here.
That is what is so special about living here. And why it's so important for it not to be replaced by a Starbucks.

Potd. Maybe year.

[colker]

Sorry but that's just not true. Living in harmony and reality is more relevent than ever.

I said culturally relevant.. not more or less comfortable for anyone.
NYC in 77 was reinventing pop culture for the next 50 yrs.

[johnmdesigner]

I said culturally relevant.. not more or less comfortable for anyone.
NYC in 77 was reinventing pop culture for the next 50 yrs.

True, Warhol is dead and CBGB's is gone but that was a short time in NYC history. I imagine most people on the street don't know who the Talking Heads were (or appreciate) how the music and images they see today were influenced by this period in time.
It's quite a different experience to stand in front of a Vermeer painting vs seeing an image of it online. I'm glad I can take a 20 minute ride to the museum and stand in front of the real thing. I realize that most of the visitors who snap a photo of it and walk away have their own experience of the work but they miss so much by not being able to appreciate it in real time. I live with the painting. It is a part of my life.
So for me this makes the city culturally relevant.

[colker]

True, Warhol is dead and CBGB's is gone but that was a short time in NYC history. I imagine most people on the street don't know who the Talking Heads were (or appreciate) how the music and images they see today were influenced by this period in time.
It's quite a different experience to stand in front of a Vermeer painting vs seeing an image of it online. I'm glad I can take a 20 minute ride to the museum and stand in front of the real thing. I realize that most of the visitors who snap a photo of it and walk away have their own experience of the work but they miss so much by not being able to appreciate it in real time. I live with the painting. It is a part of my life.
So for me this makes the city culturally relevant.

Pop culture has been about recorded, transmitted image and music. That´s how it changes everywhere else´s culture. For good and for bad.
Your painting example just makes my point: museums are about the opposite of pop culture (although they try hard to be part of it, now, due to comercial needs)
New york´70s graffiti, hip hop, clubland and punk rock became the mainstream pop culture of our time. They are the genres, the cornerstones of contemporary lifestyle being sold eveywhere in the the planet. Thru those genres, ideas and knowledge are transmitted to young people. Like it or not.
You may ignore all of it and chose to get your taste from the 17th century but hip hop, punk rock and graffiti along w/ movies are the most solid genres in popular cultures worldwide nowadays. They were created in NYC and exploded into view during 1977. Why it happened and why it does not happen these days is another debate.

[paredown]

True, Warhol is dead and CBGB's is gone but that was a short time in NYC history. I imagine most people on the street don't know who the Talking Heads were (or appreciate) how the music and images they see today were influenced by this period in time.
It's quite a different experience to stand in front of a Vermeer painting vs seeing an image of it online. I'm glad I can take a 20 minute ride to the museum and stand in front of the real thing. I realize that most of the visitors who snap a photo of it and walk away have their own experience of the work but they miss so much by not being able to appreciate it in real time. I live with the painting. It is a part of my life.
So for me this makes the city culturally relevant.

My lovely wife had one of those near-brushes with fame--in the Women's at CBGBs with Blondie and the gals from the B-52s circa 1979/80 while they teased their hair before their next set...

What strikes me about New York is that a lot of stuff still happens here--magazine publishing, fashion, design...

My wife works often with fashion brands, and still a lot of them have a NY office, even though the Garment District is a shadow of its former self, as rents have pushed the actual manufacturing out. But showrooms and the structure that supports fashion are still here.

She did a stint with Conde Naste, and although printed magazines are not the sole purveyor of cool--they are still read and fought over.

And the new culture of internet startups (and internet companies) is growing leaps and bounds--not supplanting, but building on the old infrastructure of people who know how to get stuff done--location shooting, still photography, show/theatre production, music production (even as the number of studios dwindle), movie/TV/internet show production etc. We have a young friend who has a "day job" with an internet music production company, and he spends most nights gigging around (two bands have him as a mainstay kb player)--and I think a career like that is so much easier in New York...

And the steady influx of bright-eyed eager young'uns--either for college here and they stay, or immediately after college--makes it a hotbed for cool venues, experimental theater, crazy startups and, yes, urban hipster trust fund babies.

But to respond to Colker--the margin has moved out to Greenpoint and Bushwick as Manhattan turned into a playground for the rich--and my musician friends bemoan the loss of the rich music scene of the Village (as I'm sure the generation that made hip hop bemoan their losses as well). But I do think a lot is going on, even if no new killer style of music has emerged. We've been down to Brooklyn Bowl to see young bands who are more musically literate than any of the club bands of my youth--but nothing has emerged yet that has had the force or energy of punk or hip hop...

Glass at least half-full for me.

[colker]

My lovely wife had one of those near-brushes with fame--in the Women's at CBGBs with Blondie and the gals from the B-52s circa 1979/80 while they teased their hair before their next set...

What strikes me about New York is that a lot of stuff still happens here--magazine publishing, fashion, design...

My wife works often with fashion brands, and still a lot of them have a NY office, even though the Garment District is a shadow of its former self, as rents have pushed the actual manufacturing out. But showrooms and the structure that supports fashion are still here.

She did a stint with Conde Naste, and although printed magazines are not the sole purveyor of cool--they are still read and fought over.

And the new culture of internet startups (and internet companies) is growing leaps and bounds--not supplanting, but building on the old infrastructure of people who know how to get stuff done--location shooting, still photography, show/theatre production, music production (even as the number of studios dwindle), movie/TV/internet show production etc.

And the steady influx of bright-eyed eager young'uns--either for college here and they stay, or immediately after college--makes it a hotbed for cool venues, experimental theater, crazy startups and, yes, urban hipster trust fund babies.

I believe the on line space/ time thing killed the possibility that any city will blossom an unique cultural atmosphere. It happens on line now and it is nowhere land.

[fiamme red]

Technology created a world entirely different reality from 77. I am talking cell phones and social networking. We are in the outer space rght now. Earth is gone.

PS: NYC was culturally relevant once. Not anymore.I'm about to leave now to go to MoMA, and watch a 1939 Czech film on a 35mm print (it's rare enough that it's not on DVD or Netflix, and probably never will be). Yesterday I went to a free concert of Handel's music downtown. NYC is still one of the best places in the world if you want access to the culture of past ages (or of the present, if you prefer that).

[johnmdesigner]

Pop culture has been about recorded, transmitted image and music. That´s how it changes everywhere else´s culture. For good and for bad.
Your painting example just makes my point: museums are about the opposite of pop culture (although they try hard to be part of it, now, due to comercial needs)
New york´70s graffiti, hip hop, clubland and punk rock became the mainstream pop culture of our time. They are the genres, the cornerstones of contemporary lifestyle being sold eveywhere in the the planet. Thru those genres, ideas and knowledge are transmitted to young people. Like it or not.
You may ignore all of it and chose to get your taste from the 17th century but hip hop, punk rock and graffiti along w/ movies are the most solid genres in popular cultures worldwide nowadays. They were created in NYC and exploded into view during 1977. Why it happened and why it does not happen these days is another debate.

Pop culture didn't just appear out of nowhere. It was influenced by the history before it.
Art, music, architecture of the past has had a profound influence on future movements.
Appreciation of those links with history makes a person more creative - not less so.
I appreciate the past as someone who lives in the present. I listen to music and watch movies and participate in social media like any other modern person. The fact that a 17th century painting gives me joy is that I can see its place in history and appreciate its contribution to it.

[colker]

I'm about to leave now to go to MoMA, and watch a 1939 Czech film on a 35mm print (it's rare enough that it's not on DVD or Netflix, and probably never will be). Yesterday I went to a free concert of Handel's music downtown. NYC is still one of the best places in the world if you want access to the culture of past ages (or of the present, if you prefer that).

Exactly. It´s not a hotbed of cultural inovation anymore but a great place to enjoy everything nevertheless.

[colker]

Pop culture didn't just appear out of nowhere. It was influenced by the history before it.
Art, music, architecture of the past has had a profound influence on future movements.
Appreciation of those links with history makes a person more creative - not less so.
I appreciate the past as someone who lives in the present. I listen to music and watch movies and participate in social media like any other modern person. The fact that a 17th century painting gives me joy is that I can see its place in history and appreciate its contribution to it.

Sure and that´s not opposed to anything i said.

[johnmdesigner]

Sure and that´s not opposed to anything i said.

Well sorry, I guess I don't understand your viewpoint.
Are you saying that NYC is just some relic that should be packed up in Styrofoam peanuts and put into a wooden crate?

[AngryScientist]

let's bring it back to cycling...

what about the hipster movement? practically began in willimsburg

fixie messenger alley cat racing? the red hook crit started here and is now literally a worldwide series.

just a few examples.

[colker]

let's bring it back to cycling...

what about the hipster movement? practically began in willimsburg

fixie messenger alley cat racing? the red hook crit started here and is now literally a worldwide series.

just a few examples.


You are right and at the same time it shows how strong was that 70s NYC cultural atmosphere when seen against an intentionally fake thing like the Hipster.. the ironic, copycat nature of hipsters x hip hop, disco and punkrock.
Talking about irony: the most influential, game changing culture comes from sylicon valley in the shape of social networks. It creates nothing but accelerates influence and it is the cultural environment which affects how we do everything. The cultural icon now is a void, an empty hole called web space, that must be filled w/ "content" all the time.
Hipsters are about empty.

[colker]

Well sorry, I guess I don't understand your viewpoint.
Are you saying that NYC is just some relic that should be packed up in Styrofoam peanuts and put into a wooden crate?

I said there is no new pop culture being created in NYC right now even if there is so much established culture being offered in a very well organized manner. When I check the powerfull, game changing, collective creations that were disco, hip hop, graffiti, punk rock i get the impression such atmosphere of inovation won´t happen so soon in NYC or elsewhere.
Maybe Berlin had something going in the 90s and that´s it.
It does not matter if you have the best of every art at the institutions; nothing massive and radically new is bubbling in NYC right now. If there was, it would be on line and then it would not be new anymore..

[fuzzalow]

A tangent discussion on the urban milieu's contribution to critical mass in the formation and ignition of pop culture movements? Whoa. I am finance and law, not fine arts or sociology so this topic is way outta my league. I wouldn't have the first clue as to what it takes to bring it all together to spark a pop culture movement.

I said culturally relevant.. not more or less comfortable for anyone.
NYC in 77 was reinventing pop culture for the next 50 yrs.

I don't think you know why and what it takes to foment cultural relevance either. Who can know that? But what I can say is you adopt a quintessentially hipster superiority tactic to criticize something without offering an opinion of a city that is, or became, culturally relevant. That is just whining. This line of reasoning is akin to a hipster lambasting a band and its music for "selling out" - not cool enough as professed by a self-annointed judge of what is cool.

I think the last world city to have a critical mass in cultural relevance was Berlin during the era of post-glasnost Soviet Union.

It is not so much about the place so much as it is about both the time and the place, No city has a lock on art or creativity or cultural avant garde. Some of these events are the eddys and currents of people & history at work, in creating something unique and not to be repeated ever again.

New York City is still culturally relevant, just not in the way it was in the 1970's.

[fuzzalow]

OK, so we both agree on Berlin. You type faster but I explain better.

[54ny77]

There was nothing quite like walking out of Small's.....at 6 a.m.

Then venturing over to Florent for breakfast.

Def. a bygone era. Glad I got to enjoy it. :beer:



But to respond to Colker--the margin has moved out to Greenpoint and Bushwick as Manhattan turned into a playground for the rich--and my musician friends bemoan the loss of the rich music scene of the Village (as I'm sure the generation that made hip hop bemoan their losses as well). But I do think a lot is going on, even if no new killer style of music has emerged. We've been down to Brooklyn Bowl to see young bands who are more musically literate than any of the club bands of my youth--but nothing has emerged yet that has had the force or energy of punk or hip hop...

Glass at least half-full for me.

[colker]

A tangent discussion on the urban milieu's contribution to critical mass in the formation and ignition of pop culture movements? Whoa. I am finance and law, not fine arts or sociology so this topic is way outta my league. I wouldn't have the first clue as to what it takes to bring it all together to spark a pop culture movement.



I don't think you know why and what it takes to foment cultural relevance either. Who can know that? But what I can say is you adopt a quintessentially hipster superiority tactic to criticize something without offering an opinion of a city that is, or became, culturally relevant. That is just whining. This line of reasoning is akin to a hipster lambasting a band and its music for "selling out" - not cool enough as professed by a self-annointed judge of what is cool.

I think the last world city to have a critical mass in cultural relevance was Berlin during the era of post-glasnost Soviet Union.

It is not so much about the place so much as it is about both the time and the place, No city has a lock on art or creativity or cultural avant garde. Some of these events are the eddys and currents of people & history at work, in creating something unique and not to be repeated ever again.

New York City is still culturally relevant, just not in the way it was in the 1970's.

No. I didn´t do anything you describe no matter how hard you try to paint it so.
What i said is pretty objective: there were collective creations in music, fashion and visual arts in NYC late 70s that were radically new, opposed to what was going on in the music, fashion and visual arts industries of that time. Those creations exploded worldwide in quick time and changed the game forever. That music and style from NYC 77 are still at the top of the game everywhere.... but that´s it. Old stuff.
Then i said there is nothing like that underground scene going on. I have written that same line over and over and yet you come pretending i am all about attitude.. Did you present any actual "scene" that may explode in the near future? Maybe i am distracted but didn´t see that description. I wish there was. Do you have any evidence of game changing street culture happening in NYC now? If so please enlighten me.. but if you don´t please quit calling others poseurs just to win an argument on the internet. :crap:

[fuzzalow]

colker, we have not had a heated debate before so for this first time, I owe you the courtesy of a response. But from your response here, I am not favorable to how you respond and, quite simply to paraphrase fellow forum member beeatnik, I'm not sure I like your style.

No. I didn´t do anything you describe no matter how hard you try to paint it so.
What i said is pretty objective: there were collective creations in music, fashion and visual arts in NYC late 70s that were radically new, opposed to what was going on in the music, fashion and visual arts industries of that time. Those creations exploded worldwide in quick time and changed the game forever. That music and style from NYC 77 are still at the top of the game everywhere.... but that´s it. Old stuff.

You're talkin' history that we all already know about. Your criticism of New York in 2017 is that it is not the dominant influence and percolator of cultural movement as you amply give NYC credit for in 1970. But nuthin' in life stays the same and for you to pursue this line of reasoning as a valid criticism is nonsensical.

Then i said there is nothing like that underground scene going on. I have written that same line over and over and yet you come pretending i am all about attitude..

Your attitude is the simplistic argument that NYC is no longer as cool as it was. Assigning that verdict based on your own judgement of cool which is not presented by you as a nuanced, newer, more contemporary concept of cool you might present as an idea. But simply, not cool anymore and that's it 'cos you said so. Well alrighty then.

Did you present any actual "scene" that may explode in the near future? Maybe i am distracted but didn´t see that description. I wish there was. Do you have any evidence of game changing street culture happening in NYC now?

You're changing the discussion. What does this have to do with your original knock on NYC - Nuthin'.

I can poke fun at myself that I live in a bubble. I don't know ding about street culture cool and I never volunteered to find out. I am the furthest thing from street culture cool - it ain't me babe.

If so please enlighten me.. but if you don´t please quit calling others poseurs just to win an argument on the internet. :crap:

I have no desire or interest in winning any argument from you. I did not call you names but I can cut-throat your arguments and your poorly founded criticisms of NYC. I am not the least bit concerned over your ideas towards NYC, anything you say won't change my affinity for living here. I am merely posting a rebuttal and a contrary opinion to what you had voiced all along this thread.