The unraveling of Team Sky continues apace...

[FlashUNC]

Their doping defenses continue to get more convoluted and nonsensical. Not looking good for Brailsford and team given the answers provided at the hearing today.

http://deadspin.com/team-sky-is-only-looking-shadier-1792863787

[MattTuck]

I've said before that it is probably impossible to eliminate all doping. If the anti-doping protocols are good enough to limit the benefit of doping to a small amount, that is probably the best we can hope for. I have no idea how much of a performance boost these molecules provide, but if the most effective doping program is basically a manipulation of the TUE rules, it seems like the anti-doping protocols are working fairly well. Seems like the TUE rules are an administrative change that would be pretty easy to make.

[Black Dog]

Their doping defenses continue to get more convoluted and nonsensical. Not looking good for Brailsford and team given the answers provided at the hearing today.

http://deadspin.com/team-sky-is-only-looking-shadier-1792863787

They need to clear up some issues for sure.

[bicycletricycle]

all the "evidence" seems coincidental, or even worse, trumped up, so far. Laptops get stolen all the time, people don't file receipts all the time, the TUE's are legal and most organizations resist having their records looked through and torn apart by people systematically looking for anything irregular that can be paraded in the news as progress.

Someone who is suspicious can see evidence here but a lot more will be needed before anything sticks.

I start from the assumption that all riders are doping and it doesn't really bother me.

Even from this jaded perspective a lot of this seems witch hunty to me.


also, deadspin is a ridiculous source for information. IMHO

[rwsaunders]

For a team that professes to be meticulous and methodical in terms of record keeping, process and procedure (note the tracking of inner tubes and bottle cages), I have a hard time believing that the good Doctor didn't have a backup...iCloud even. You're never too ill to video conference, right? SKY seems to follow the same mantra as insurance companies, when dealing with claims...deny, delay and defend.

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/article/inside-the-team-sky-service-course-34623/

[FlashUNC]

all the "evidence" seems coincidental, or even worse, trumped up, so far. Laptops get stolen all the time, people don't file receipts all the time, the TUE's are legal and most organizations resist having their records looked through and torn apart by people systematically looking for anything irregular that can be paraded in the news as progress.

Someone who is suspicious can see evidence here but a lot more will be needed before anything sticks.

I start from the assumption that all riders are doping and it doesn't really bother me.

Even from this jaded perspective a lot of this seems witch hunty to me.


also, deadspin is a ridiculous source for information. IMHO

You're missing out, Patrick Redford is doing a helluva job covering cycling at a mainstream sports site.

For a team that professes to be meticulous and methodical in terms of record keeping, process and procedure (note the tracking of inner tubes and bottle cages), I have a hard time believing that the good Doctor didn't have a backup...iCloud even. You're never too ill to video conference, right? SKY seems to follow the same mantra as insurance companies, when dealing with claims...deny, delay and defend.

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/article/inside-the-team-sky-service-course-34623/

Pretty much this. These are the people who for years have touted that they're more organized and more put together with their marginal gains than anyone else in the business, but now that people have hard questions they act like they're the keystone cops? C'mon.

[bicycletricycle]

The TUEs are a good example of why they wouldn't want to cooperate, technically legal but easily used as "proof" of something illegal by clickbate journalists who want a story.

This article describes the theft of a laptop as "convenient" and then says interpol could not confirm the theft. Makes you wonder what percent of laptops interpol can confirm the theft of, also, are we surprised that a laptop has been stolen? Perhaps they would like to make an allegation instead of implying that anecdotes add up to conspiracy.

It is true that these may be convenient lies used to cover up systematic doping, It would be reasonable to assume that they are given cyclings recent history. In fact, most people reading that article can put 2 and 2 together, all the more reason to stick to the facts.

[Tickdoc]

I used to love Floyd. Jus sayin.

[CunegoFan]

The TUEs are a good example of why they wouldn't want to cooperate, technically legal but easily used as "proof" of something illegal by clickbate journalists who want a story.


Wiggins' TUEs were not technically legal. The WADA code has four criteria for granting a TUE. All four criteria must be met. Wiggins' TUEs fail on three and arguably on all four. Sky applied for those TUEs knowing they were not legitimate and relying on them to be rubber stamped by the UCI's Dr. Zorzoli, who by sheer coincidence is a good friend of Dr. Lienders, the dope doctor Sky hired after a disastrous 2010 season.

[bicycletricycle]

That is all interesting.

I wonder who is to blame here for issuing those TUEs if they are in fact not consistent with the letter of the law? The team who requested them or the person who approved them.

I guess if someone can prove that they payed that guy to rubber stamp them that could get some traction, a doctor being a friend with another doctor doesn't seem to be too strong of an allegation. It is not against the rules to apply for TUE and have it get rejected is it?

In formula one teams seem to see it as their responsibility to push the boundaries of the rules as far as possible. I think that they don't really believe in a spirit of the law, just the letter of the law.

I guess sky would be guilty of the same thing in that case, pushing the boundaries of the written law as far as possible. In some ways it would be silly to expect them to do otherwise.

i can't imagine that the stress from continually cheating in such a public sphere could be worth the reward, especially in a post lance world. Obviously people will still do anything to win.

If WADA is complicent here do you think they are staying quiet from emberassment?



Wiggins' TUEs were not technically legal. The WADA code has four criteria for granting a TUE. All four criteria must be met. Wiggins' TUEs fail on three and arguably on all four. Sky applied for those TUEs knowing they were not legitimate and relying on them to be rubber stamped by the UCI's Dr. Zorzoli, who by sheer coincidence is a good friend of Dr. Lienders, the dope doctor Sky hired after a disastrous 2010 season.

[chiasticon]

I have no idea how much of a performance boost these molecules provide, but if the most effective doping program is basically a manipulation of the TUE rules, it seems like the anti-doping protocols are working fairly well.agreed.

For a team that professes to be meticulous and methodical in terms of record keeping, process and procedure (note the tracking of inner tubes and bottle cages), I have a hard time believing that the good Doctor didn't have a backup...iCloud even.

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/article/inside-the-team-sky-service-course-34623/so... you're saying that because the mechanics are hyper-organized, the whole team (and specifically the doctors) must be as well? I get that your point is basically "they're all about marginal gains and keeping close records of exactly what they're doing is key to that." and I would agree. but the logic you're using doesn't really add up for me is all.

*and fwiw, if you look at any of the team service course photo galleries, you'll find a similar level of organization. these guys just have a TON of sh*t and need to keep it all straight.

[rwsaunders]

^ if you have a chance, read this leadership article with Brailsford then share your thoughts about the chances of him having an organizational system in place where they lose laptops, fail to backup medical records, can't recall what was in a special delivery baggie to Sir Bradley and where a staff doctor can't testify because he's ill. It's Dave's turn in the hot seat and things aren't going well for him right now.

http://www.harringtonstarr.com/sir-david-brailsfords-20-lessons-leadership/

[bobswire]

That is all interesting.

I wonder who is to blame here for issuing those TUEs if they are in fact not consistent with the letter of the law? The team who requested them or the person who approved them.

I guess if someone can prove that they payed that guy to rubber stamp them that could get some traction, a doctor being a friend with another doctor doesn't seem to be too strong of an allegation. It is not against the rules to apply for TUE and have it get rejected is it?

In formula one teams seem to see it as their responsibility to push the boundaries of the rules as far as possible. I think that they don't really believe in a spirit of the law, just the letter of the law.

I guess sky would be guilty of the same thing in that case, pushing the boundaries of the written law as far as possible. In some ways it would be silly to expect them to do otherwise.

i can't imagine that the stress from continually cheating in such a public sphere could be worth the reward, especially in a post lance world. Obviously people will still do anything to win.

If WADA is complicent here do you think they are staying quiet from emberassment?

I'm with you at this point, trying to prove you didn't dope is fruitless,make them prove you did if in fact you did. No matter what happened there will be those who will have assumed your are guilty and those who feel they are being set up and there are those like me, prove it or take a hike.

[bicycletricycle]

^ if you have a chance, read this leadership article with Brailsford then share your thoughts about the chances of him having an organizational system in place where they lose laptops, fail to backup medical records, can't recall what was in a special delivery baggie to Sir Bradley and where a staff doctor can't testify because he's ill. It's Dave's turn in the hot seat and things aren't going well for him right now.

http://www.harringtonstarr.com/sir-david-brailsfords-20-lessons-leadership/

I read that article, a lot of boiler plate stuff in it but it does give the impression that Brailsford is organized and thoughtful about his methods of management.

I work with a lot of companies as a consultant, 100% of the time the vision and ideals of the talking heads representing the organization are not reflective of actual practices. The larger the organization, the more true this seems to be.

All I am trying to say is, just because some people who manage an organization walk around talking about how superior their management and organizational skills are it doesn't make it so.

Their are huge incentives for a high profile executive to misrepresent their organizations actual practices.

Perhaps they actual have lost their records and perhaps those records would be evidence of cheating.

Still going to need some actual evidence.

[Mark McM]

It is true that you can't prove a negative - you can't absolutely prove that the Team Sky was never involved in doping. However, Team Sky, and Brailsford in particular, made many promises in regard to racing clean. Here are a few quotes by Brailsford:

"Our job is to prove beyond a doubt that it can be done clean."

"We want a team in which riders are free of the risks of doping and in which fans - new and old - can believe without any doubt or hesitation."

"The whole point of our team is to try and demonstrate that it is possible to cycle clean and compete at the highest level."

Source: http://www.stickybottle.com/uncategorized/opinion-has-team-sky-kept-the-promises-it-made-on-doping/

But now, when Team Sky is being asked for information to backup these promises, none is being offered. Either these were simply empty promises, with no attempt to stand behind them (making them no better than any other team), or something worse is going on.

[bluesea]

It is true that you can't prove a negative - you can't absolutely prove that the Team Sky was never involved in doping. However, Team Sky, and Brailsford in particular, made many promises in regard to racing clean. Here are a few quotes by Brailsford:

"Our job is to prove beyond a doubt that it can be done clean."

"We want a team in which riders are free of the risks of doping and in which fans - new and old - can believe without any doubt or hesitation."

"The whole point of our team is to try and demonstrate that it is possible to cycle clean and compete at the highest level."

Source: http://www.stickybottle.com/uncategorized/opinion-has-team-sky-kept-the-promises-it-made-on-doping/

But now, when Team Sky is being asked for information to backup these promises, none is being offered. Either these were simply empty promises, with no attempt to stand behind them (making them no better than any other team), or something worse is going on.



I think you just said succinctly what everyone else is trying to say. Very good.

[FlashUNC]

It is true that you can't prove a negative - you can't absolutely prove that the Team Sky was never involved in doping. However, Team Sky, and Brailsford in particular, made many promises in regard to racing clean. Here are a few quotes by Brailsford:

"Our job is to prove beyond a doubt that it can be done clean."

"We want a team in which riders are free of the risks of doping and in which fans - new and old - can believe without any doubt or hesitation."

"The whole point of our team is to try and demonstrate that it is possible to cycle clean and compete at the highest level."

Source: http://www.stickybottle.com/uncategorized/opinion-has-team-sky-kept-the-promises-it-made-on-doping/

But now, when Team Sky is being asked for information to backup these promises, none is being offered. Either these were simply empty promises, with no attempt to stand behind them (making them no better than any other team), or something worse is going on.

Instead, laptops have vanished, envelopes are being sent around mysteriously, and people are suddenly too ill to testify.

Its almost like they've got something to hide.

[Macadamia]

a very loose definition of "clean" seems to be their point now

"well everything was legal, and I had some sniffles, of course I needed medicine, whatever the best allowable medicine was"

That's giving them the benefit of the doubt, which I probably shouldn't.

[johnmdesigner]

"It wasn't my fault I swear to god!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz-Lzu01olY

[rwsaunders]

I read that article, a lot of boiler plate stuff in it but it does give the impression that Brailsford is organized and thoughtful about his methods of management.

I work with a lot of companies as a consultant, 100% of the time the vision and ideals of the talking heads representing the organization are not reflective of actual practices. The larger the organization, the more true this seems to be.

All I am trying to say is, just because some people who manage an organization walk around talking about how superior their management and organizational skills are it doesn't make it so.

Their are huge incentives for a high profile executive to misrepresent their organizations actual practices.

Perhaps they actual have lost their records and perhaps those records would be evidence of cheating.

Still going to need some actual evidence.

Totally agree about the evidence and as they duck and weave around the subject, they'll motivate folks to seek the truth. It'll be interesting for sure.

[pdmtong]

They have no choice but to stall and let the investigation try to prove it. No matter how bad it looks.

No one that is guilty comes out and says "I'm guilty" as long as there is a tiny infinitesimal chance the investigation will prove inconclusive. It might be damning, but still inconclusive.

as rwsaunders said - they are meticulous about everything - but they can't find the most important sure-to-be-scrutinized data/contents? stolen laptop? illness? really? what hubris! It would be one thing if they were first - like lance/postal - trying to put one over on the organization and public. But now, years later, everyone has seen the movie and worse, people are lurking trying to find a reason to take SKY down especially after the past years of dominance and their robotic racing style. What colossal idiots.

That said, what Froome showed last Tour in those handful of stages - running on ventoux, descending on his TT, and making the break with sagan into the wind was just epic stuff. I can look past his his mantis arm head swaying after those displays of heart and panache.

[fuzzalow]

The more things change, the more they stay the same. A elite cyclist - in however way they were genetically gifted and respond to training/exogenous influence - is still a sporadic occurrence across the broader human physiology gene pool. Ironic that despite man's best efforts at creating a better athlete specimen, the best of the real or contrived is still a scarce random genetic event.

LeMond, Hampsten, Hinault: examples of select cyclists from out of thousands that were gifted genetically with response characteristics from athletic training & diet to foster the capacity and capability to win a cycling Grand Tour spectacle.

Armstrong, Froome: examples of select cyclists from out of thousands that were gifted genetically with response characteristics to exogenous influences to foster the capacity and capability to win a cycling Grand Tour spectacle.

Both conditions as hard to find as a needle in a haystack. It turns out that the surprise factor is really just about humans in all our infinite variability. The sport of cycling was just a medium & means to shift for the outliers and make them into heroes.

[72gmc]

"It wasn't my fault I swear to god!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz-Lzu01olY

Every time he drops Carrie in the mud, I laugh. I only expect this to continue for the rest of my life.

[weisan]

oooooohhh.....$hit!

http://www.steephill.tv/players/youtube3/?title=Bradley+Wiggins+threatens+to+call+police+af ter+reporter+questions+him&dashboard=&id=EwqVDWsDf7k&yr=2017

[CunegoFan]

I wonder who is to blame here for issuing those TUEs if they are in fact not consistent with the letter of the law? The team who requested them or the person who approved them.

I guess if someone can prove that they payed that guy to rubber stamp them that could get some traction, a doctor being a friend with another doctor doesn't seem to be too strong of an allegation. It is not against the rules to apply for TUE and have it get rejected is it?


Zorzoli did not have to be paid. He and the UCI are completely corrupt. While he was in an anti doping role at the UCI, Zorzoli assured Rasmussen he was a protected. He advised Lienders on what drugs Rasmussen should take. Friends of mine who rode during that era have said they never heard of the UCI turning down a TUE request. Anything could have been sent to Zorzoli and he would sign off on it. It seems a safe assumption that nothing had changed a few years later when Sky needed a CYA note to excuse Wiggins' doping.

The UCI might as well have installed Dr. Ferrari as the man guarding the chicken coop.

The UCI not only knows riders are doping, not only looks the other way, but does what it can to assist the riders in skirting the rules.

[rwsaunders]

There is an article posted in the Guardian today which organizes the issues and concerns fairly well. Below is just a short excerpt...

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/mar/02/british-cycling-team-sky-dave-brailsford-credibility-tatters


The General Medical Council’s views on British Cycling, Sky and Dr Freeman, may well provide a coda to this saga, because of breaches in their guidelines on record-keeping regarding prescription medicines, but the lack of records was, Sapstead said, odd. That was an understatement.

Damningly, she said of Team Sky that she would have “particularly” expected “a professional road cycling team that was founded on the premise of exhibiting that road racing could be conducted cleanly” to have records to back that up. Assuming there has been no systematic cover-up – something for which Sapstead said there was no evidence – that leads to a conclusion that is still disturbing: if Dr Freeman was operating without supervision, with no record of what he gave to the athletes, how can Brailsford claim that his procedures are robust?

This is another in a litany of failures of process in ensuring that Team Sky lived up to their publicly stated anti-doping stance from day one in early 2009, when the mission statement to win the Tour with a clean British rider was revealed to the world. It also made a nonsense of Shane Sutton’s assertions at the hearing in December that Sky was the cleanest team in the world and that British Cycling had “done everything by the book”.

There have been no positive drug tests, so according to the letter of the law the mission has been achieved, but there has been a persistent, gradual erosion of the team’s credibility. An internal anti-doping policy was jettisoned before the team even hit the road. A zero-tolerance policy glaringly failed to weed out riders and staff with doping pasts, the recruitment of Dr Geert Leinders – later found to have been involved in doping at the Rabobank team – went squarely against Sky’s policy of steering clear of doctors from a cycling milieu. The recruitment of Jonathan Tiernan-Locke – later found positive for blood doping before he joined Sky – led to an overhaul of their process of vetting riders, while there remain unanswered questions about the use of the legal painkiller tramadol, not mentioned once at the hearing but still a live issue, and the administration of the corticosteroid triamcinolone.

This practice was first revealed by the Fancy Bears leaks of Sir Bradley Wiggins’s therapeutic use exemptions to use the medicine to treat pollen allergies before three major Tours in 2011, 2012 and 2013 and it could well prove to be the biggest issue thrown up by Sapstead’s inquiry team.

That is because of the amount of the corticosteroid – trade name Kenalog – ordered by British Cycling and Team Sky and, by implication, where it all went. Sapstead was clear on this. The quantity of triamcinolone ordered was “far more” than Wiggins would have required for his three injections: “You would think there was an excessive amount of triamcinolone being ordered for one person or quite a few people had a very similar problem.”

In the absence of a clear audit of which riders had been given what, she added, her team at Ukad would have to go into individual medical records to establish to which riders it had been administered and whether that use was justified. The interview given by Wiggins to the Guardian about Fancy Bears in September 2016 adds little light; he stated that he had not been given it out of competition, but later conceded that he had been given an injection in Leeds for a knee injury in 2013.

The relentless exposure of Sky’s credibility gaps means the team will struggle for answers when the media spotlight hits them in July at the Tour de France. The questions may be directed – perhaps unfairly – at Chris Froome as an individual, for all that there is no evidence of anything untoward in his three Tour wins. The trouble is that men such as Brailsford, who for six years have stated that people should believe in their ways of working and who will be repeating that this summer, no longer have a leg to stand on.

[Clean39T]

oooooohhh.....$hit!



http://www.steephill.tv/players/youtube3/?title=Bradley+Wiggins+threatens+to+call+police+af ter+reporter+questions+him&dashboard=&id=EwqVDWsDf7k&yr=2017


Release the hounds!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[cmbicycles]

oooooohhh.....$hit!

http://www.steephill.tv/players/youtube3/?title=Bradley+Wiggins+threatens+to+call+police+af ter+reporter+questions+him&dashboard=&id=EwqVDWsDf7k&yr=2017
Funny how people will threaten to call the police over being uncomfortable being asked questions about obvious issues. Do people really expect to be able to hide from their mistakes and no one ever question it. What would the police do? "You are under arrest for asking questions."

Funny story, my wife had an experience at our (former) bank, Sun Trust (none Trust) She sent her card/license thru the drivethru for a deposit/withdrawl. The teller handed her debit card to another customer, who walked out of the bank with it. She was in the drive thru waiting with kids and a dog in the car... crickets. She went inside to speak with a manager, and asked them to cancel the card. Asst mgr said he would notify the branch mgr who would handle everything and would call back with an update...branch manager was at lunch. They insisted that the other customer was on his way back to the bank with the card. Cue more crickets.

My wife stopped in hours later and went to speak with the manager, he unapologetically said he would take care of it and be in touch. My wife questioned his competency in managing a bank since he had been made aware of the issue, done nothing, and no one followed up or communicated. He lost his marbles and threatened to call the police. So she just left. She called and requested a new card from corporate, filed a complaint about the branch manager, and they 'generously' offered to rush it for no extra charge.

After a week with no replacement card we followed up with corporate, filed additional complaints, and discovered that the card was never cancelled and no new card had been issued.

When you screw up, own up to it. Don't play with fire if you can't take the heat.

[PQJ]

The other day, I saw an animal. It looked like a duck. It waddled like a duck. It made noises like a duck. I was baffled. What could it be?!?!?!? Upon further examination, I concluded that it was, in fact, a duck.

[mgm777]

^This!

[FlashUNC]

Testosterone patches just randomly showing up at the velodrome. How odd...

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/mar/05/team-sky-doctor-richard-freeman-was-allegedly-sent-banned-testosterone-patches-doping