Training and Recovery

[jwess1234]

I know I'm opening a can of worms--everyone is different, get a coach, etc., but I'm trying to figure out the right balance for work vs. rest and I want to be somewhat more scientific than hunches.

Right now I'm doing TrainerRoad sweet spot base 2 (almost done), which is 2 60 min sessions and one at 1 hour 30 mins. Depends on the week, but I may also add 1 long weekend ride 45-75 miles, and maybe a commute at 22 miles.

Some of the TrainerRoad intervals feel tough. For instance the last minute of each 3 min interval in the below example was tough, particularly the last minute of the 6th and final interval was hard. I don't necessarily take this to mean I am overdoing anything. If a workout is too hard and my legs are too depleted I may shorten/modify.

I'm sure the suffering is normal. I would like to do a semi easy commute tomorrow (under 12 hours between rides), but want to make sure I make gains and am not overdoing it with "junk miles." Just has me questioning how to figure out the best balance between training and rest.

Is there anything objective to look to in order to find the right balance?

[zank]

My guess would be that you are over estimating your FTP. 18 minutes of sweet spot work is on the low side duration wise. If you need some recovery after 3 minutes, I'd venture to guess that you are not doing sweet spot. With sweet spot, you should be building towards 45-60 minutes continuous or broken into two intervals (2x30). Note I said workings towards, not starting out at. But I've never seen sweet spot broken into 3 minute intervals before.

Another possibility is that your indoor FTP is significantly lower than your outdoor FTP. Some athletes just struggle making power indoors for a number of physical and/or psychological reasons.

Another possibility is you just had a bad day. No biggie.

I would retest with the longest duration test Trainer Road has. Or consider doing a 30-40 min test of your own to limit the anaerobic contribution to the final average power. Then post more questions :beer:

[ANAO]

I agree with Zank. I think we started out with 5 minutes of SST in October and, most recently, tested 45 minutes @ 93%.

Regarding your recovery, junk miles make for great recovery so long as you treat them as such. I love my commute (30k) because I can take it easy and prep my legs for the next day's workout/recover from yesterday, or motor along to get some endurance work in depending on the day's menu. Sounds like our commutes are similar. You may want to try to treat it as recovery.

[abr5]

Another possibility is that your indoor FTP is significantly lower than your outdoor FTP. Some athletes just struggle making power indoors for a number of physical and/or psychological reasons.


That's definitely the case for a lot of people. I also recently did an interval workout on an old fluid trainer instead of the electronic trainer I usually use- it felt like I was pedaling through molasses and I fatigued really fast. As zank said, FTP varies significantly depending on the test circumstances (I.e. indoor/outdoor, high/low inertia trainer).


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[nooneline]

I'm sure the suffering is normal. I would like to do a semi easy commute tomorrow (under 12 hours between rides), but want to make sure I make gains and am not overdoing it with "junk miles." Just has me questioning how to figure out the best balance between training and rest.

Is there anything objective to look to in order to find the right balance?

To obtain a good balance between training and rest, make sure that your hard days are hard, and your easy days are easy. Since you probably can't use your commute to train, make it a very easy active recovery ride. Seriously easy.

As far as "anything objective," tracking your CTL, ATL, and TSB metrics can help you understand your overall training load, how it compares to trends, and when you've accumulated a lot of fatigue. Don't take these numbers as gospel - a Coggan PMC is just a model and relies on some assumptions that may or may not be accurate - but with a grain of salt can be helpful.

[shovelhd]

I agree with Zanc.

What are your goals? If you race, when is your first A race? Sweet spot is just base, and if you race, has a finite period. If you continue, it becomes junk miles.

BTW, it's OK if you struggle to finish your later intervals, providing your zones are set correctly. That's the point. It should ve hard, very hard. Once it gets easier, it's time to bump your FTP up.

I derated my indoor FTP by 7%.

[Ti Designs]

As I start coaching with power and smart trainers, I look at charts like this and see very different information than most. I have a theory that the body can't adjust to lower force levels - everything below the level of force your muscles are producing is perceived as zero. Every cyclist I've tested has shown the same "falling off a cliff" drop in power between interval and recovery. It seems like such a short time, no big deal, right??? If you're talking about long intervals and rest periods, it's not. In real conditions it is. I'm putting together what I call my "FTP prep class", which is mostly about learning how to do transitions from up tempo to sustain and back again. Once you can do the transitions well (you don't see those overshoot lines with each change), you start looking at heart rate. Up tempo raises the heart rate, sustain lowers it. The trick is to have that sine wave right around AT, maybe one beat above, three beats below. Here's where it gets tied into real life riding - the only way of making that happen is to shorten the times. Now think about riding in a pace line, there are going to be up tempo times - hitting the front, going up a slight rise... Any other time you need to back it down to sustain and lower the heart rate. You don't really have control over when that is, those transitions are made on a second by second basis. So how unimportant are those 300% overshoots in power???

[Ti Designs]

This is the graph of one of my students, notice the lack of spikes when there are changes...

[superbowlpats]

Pretty sure that is Kaiser on Trainerroad. 6 x 3 min at 120% FTP is not easy, at least not for me. Those last two intervals can crush me, especially since my FTP is bit over inflated at the moment. But I've noticed that the Sweet Spot plan on TR is a bit more aggressive than I remember it from the past. Those V02 max intervals seem more appropriate for the Build Phase. But maybe that's just me and I'm mentally weak :crap:

[zank]

My mistake. You are totally right. I read sweet spot plan and totally missed that that wasn't a sweet spot workout.

That's a hard workout. Yes, you are feeling what you shouls be feeling on that one! I'd likely give myself 36-48 hours recovery before attempting another similar workout.

[unterhausen]

I'm doing sweet spot base 2, and I did Kaiser last week. Had to turn down the intensity to get through it. I think it was a rest problem for me, but I don't really remember the circumstances. First minute of those intervals is fine, second is tolerable, right at the end of the second minute my legs are burning and I have trouble maintaining a decent cadence. I stand up a lot for those.

I did general build before, and I was definitely having trouble with recovery on that. That's why I decided to go back to base. My FTP might be set a little high, not sure. Although I can make it through the sweet spot workouts that hover right at FTP. I need to do the 20 minute test.

trainerroad has a week of light workouts at the end, to prep for the next FTP test. I know at the end of the general build that after that week of lower intensity rides I could do the high intensity rides with no problems. Sometimes I put in extra rest days. My experience is that rest is very important.

My commute is only 7 miles. It's not a flat commute, but I take it easy. It really convinced me that recovery rides work

[Andy sti]

One hour with an IF of .94 and 88 TSS is hard and VO2 is supposed to be hard - like this sucks hard. As far as recovery and balance so much depends on the rest of your life. Your cycling volume certainly doesn't seem like too much but if your working 60 hour weeks and spending time with family and other responsibilities it can be.

[jwess1234]

Thanks for the input everyone! Really helpful as I try to be more structured.

Yes, that was Kaiser on trainerroad, which is described as " Kaiser is 6x3-minute VO2 Max repeats at 120% FTP with 3-minute recoveries between intervals."

I agree, the first minute feels ok, second minute manageable, and third minute tough. On the 5th and 6th interval I definitely had to change cadence quite a bit to let my legs refresh.

I usually get off these and don't feel anything in my legs, but only when I try to do a workout the next day. Did the commute this morning and was going to go easy, but then flatted (literally right outside of my APT with a big fat slice) and had to push hard to catch the group. Certainly not a recovery ride, but manageable.

I think that puts Lamarck for Thursday and then Mary Austin for Saturday before more or less a recovery week (I will "try" to honor) then starting Low Volume Build (debating short power vs general power).

I bought Friel's "Training Bible" and Allen/Cogan's "Training and Racing with Power," but haven't really looked at them yet. Will they really help guide me with respect to the recovery aspects?

[John H.]

How long is your 45-75 mile ride?

You also make this statement:
I would like to do a semi easy commute tomorrow (under 12 hours between rides), but want to make sure I make gains and am not overdoing it with "junk miles." Just has me questioning how to figure out the best balance between training and rest.

How easy is semi-easy? Strikes me as maybe not easy enough-
Overdoing it with junk miles? Miles are only junk if you would be better served doing something else.
The else could be more rest or specific work- but my guess is that you don't need more specific work with 3 specific trainer sessions per week.

What does your CTL/ATL look like?
Do you ever look at weekly totals in WKO? This could shed light on whether you are overdoing it.
Ever take an easy week? TO me an easy week might be 40% less riding and also much less intensity-