Zipp 303 Firecrest tubeless?

[Dromen]

Just picked up a set of like new 303s clincher rim break hoops(latest gen disc rims are tubeless). Wondering is anyone has attempted to setup as tubeless. No plans of doing so, just sometimes winter boredom starts creepin in.....

Went 3 pages deep in google, all i could find was this:
http://nyvelocity.com/articles/equipment/zipp-firecrest-carbon-clinchers/

It took a lot of experimenting, but I eventually found that you need to tape up the rim with Stan’s 25mm MTB tape instead of their standard road 21mm tape. The rim bed on these wheels are textured and Stan’s tape won’t make a seal against it. The wider tape creeps up the sides and makes a seal against the tire bead.

[Hombre]

I don't want to say anything is possible, buuuuut...
I have gone 'ghetto tubeless' conversion on countless non-tubeless rims successfully for cyclocross.
Laying down a layer of electrical tape might help with creating a better surface for the stans tape to adhere to.
Also avoid using Stans or sealants with ammonia as it will damage or corrode certain materials overtime when in direct contact. Try orange seal since it's made without ammonia (I think?)
And lastly, it would be advised to use a tubeless specific tire. If you're using a road tire 23/25/28 then I'd say stop and think very hard about what you're about to do.

If you're going with larger tires and lower pressures then there might be a better chance.

[batman1425]

Flat out would not recommend using anything not explicitly designed as tubeless appropriate (either rim or tire) for tubeless road applications. The high pressures require very precise interfaces. Leonard Zinn has spoken to this at length and described double bead blow outs he has experienced while riding. Tubeless mix and match at road pressures = very bad idea.

If for cross, you may be able to get away with with a non tubeless rim or tire - but it will be a trial and error affair. Even for cross, I wouldn't go much higher than 35ish PSI if either rim or tire isn't tubeless specific.

[simplemind]

Ok, you're going to get a lot of comments saying "not a good idea", and while they are well meaning, the devil is in the details.
First and foremost, never run a non-tubeless tire tubeless. Yes it can be done, but why risk it. Always run a quality tubeless tire such as a Schwalbe One.

Second, some carbon rims that are not designed to be run tubeless can be fine tubeless, just do your homework. I have run my Vision 40's which are non-tubeless for a year on the above mentioned tire without a hint of a problem. I use an Orange Seal tubeless kit, and I think it's better than Stans but YMMV. Also, I'm running a 28mm at 80 psi...very comfy!

That said, I've had years of experience with MTB wheels and tires, running a "ghetto" setup, and non-tubless tires and my experience has been all over the map. The UST standard tires were very good, they were just a bit over-designed and heavy. When they started making tires with a "tubeless ready" bead interface the performance and consistency improved to the point that was accepted by the general public.

I'd like to know your experience with the 303 rims, as those are on my radar.

BTW, no guarantees written, expressed, or implied. :eek:

[Dromen]

Hombre - Very strong 3rd post. Welcome to Paceline

Thank you folks for input. Something about google, anytime i find almost 0 info on a topic, i feel like its time to move another cure for winter boredom.

+ I lost sight of the end-game with this project....im in the camp of "Tubeless road tires still seem like they have a long way to go before offering a recognizable advantage over tubed and tubular tires". Then again I miss alot and this comes with zero experience at higher psi TL tires, ive only run off-pavement set ups at 35-50psi(gravel type tires).

Was only considering T/L road tires. Comments from batman/Zinn and Hombre's ammonia warning have scared me off. Simplemind, you will need another test bunny.

Next on the list, replacing all my bikes with my new favorite saddle Brooks C17.
Who knew for the past twenty years i have been on a too narrow saddle. Been testing C17 and have a C17 carved in route...need more.

[DrSpoke]

Tubeless road has already come a long way. I've been running them since 2010 with only one flat. And that was my fault when I ran over some gravel and cut a sidewall. In my opinion, the technology became legitimate when Schwalbe went all in last year. The Pro-One is an excellent tire. On all of my installs, they have gone on the rim by hand and have inflated and the bead set with a floor pump. I generally set the bead first, pull the valve core, inject sealant through the valve, install the valve core and re-inflate. No fuss, no mess.

As re ghetto tubeless, that was a hack used at the beginning of the technology when there weren't as many tubeless tires or rims available. This is no longer the case and unnecessary.

As re Stan's/ammonia this is no longer applicable. This was true and did happen back in the day but Stan's has long since changed their formula and it no longer uses ammonia. That said, I've been using Orange Sealant since the beginning and have been very happy with it.

[benc]

Tubeless road has already come a long way. I've been running them since 2010 with only one flat. And that was my fault when I ran over some gravel and cut a sidewall. In my opinion, the technology became legitimate when Schwalbe went all in last year. The Pro-One is an excellent tire. On all of my installs, they have gone on the rim by hand and have inflated and the bead set with a floor pump. I generally set the bead first, pull the valve core, inject sealant through the valve, install the valve core and re-inflate. No fuss, no mess.

As re ghetto tubeless, that was a hack used at the beginning of the technology when there weren't as many tubeless tires or rims available. This is no longer the case and unnecessary.

As re Stan's/ammonia this is no longer applicable. This was true and did happen back in the day but Stan's has long since changed their formula and it no longer uses ammonia. That said, I've been using Orange Sealant since the beginning and have been very happy with it.

+1 for everything Dr. Spoke says. I'm upwards of 20k tubeless road miles trouble free.

[Dromen]

Ben/Doc,
Have you installed on Zipp Firecrest rims?

Cant find it but, thought i had an email or some internet info from enve stating, even thought there previous gen SES 3.4 rims where not tubeless rated, it was ok to setup this way as they were successful in doing so. Not sure what that means relative to Zipps......

[alioup]

I setup my zipp 404 firestrikes tubeless with some stans tape. I use exclusively schwalbe pro ones and have no issues.

[Dromen]

alioup101,
Are your firestrikes non-tubeless rim brake rims. Do you descend enough to generate lots o rim heat?

[Hombre]

alioup101,
Are your firestrikes non-tubeless rim brake rims. Do you descend enough to generate lots o rim heat?

Rim heat with tubeless will honestly be as much of a concern as tubed. I think a bigger concern is the lock between the rim and tire during descending. There currently isn't a standard for rim/tire bead for tubeless unfortunately.
But what I have seen as a major difference between clincher and tubeless ready rims are shallower center channels. Building up layers of tape will help from preventing the tire from unseating and falling into the channel.
I say give it a try with some hutchinson or schwalbe tires. Build up enough layers for the tire to seat itself and ride it. But I would say ride it out on less technical rides before you get too confident. If it doesn't work out and the tire won't hold air or stay seated, you can always remove the sealant and tape and use a tube.

[alioup]

alioup101,
Are your firestrikes non-tubeless rim brake rims. Do you descend enough to generate lots o rim heat?

Yep the zipps are non-tubeless and rim brake. I've climbed/descended on them many times and never had an issue. But I also use my brakes very lightly when descending

[Dromen]

THanks.

Interesting that something as seemingly insignificant at the thickness or positioning of rim tape can be the difference between keeping a rider upright or on the ground. Made me start thinking of all the other "little things"....

[apeescape]

there is no inner bead on a Zipp rim to hold the tire on. Going tubeless on a non-tubeless rim is a terrible and dangerous idea.