Another pro disc brake crash [Archive]

Mark McM

02-23-2017, 10:42 AM

Just how would a disc rotor have an opportunity to spin more than say half a rotation in contact with anything else during a crash? Think about it.

Crashes often occur when cyclists get squeezed together. If two cyclists got squeezed together while riding slightly staggered from each other, the foot of cyclist in the left rear could go into the back of the rear rotor of the rider to the right front. Since the rear wheel is still on the road and spinning, the rotor would be turning quickly and with a lot of torque. If the two cyclists were in this position for 7 ft. of forward motion, the wheel would turn a complete revolution.

While not the same thing, I once had a cyclist put his front skewer into my rear spokes. Out of the 20 spokes of the rear wheel, 7 were broken, and an additional 6 were damaged. So, the skewer was into my wheel for most of a revolution (fortunately, I didn't go down, and rolled to a stop).

However, as it was the cyclist's left shoe that got cut (the right shoe would be closest to another rider's disc rotors), I can't think of an easy way for this to happen.

ColonelJLloyd

02-23-2017, 10:59 AM

Are you saying you think the disc would make the same damage if it dident rotate upon impact? That the fact that it rotate has nothing to do with the damage?

Maybe. If the damage on the shoe was caused from a rotor it could have been done without the rotor turning more than a half a revolution or so. The cut in the shoe looks to me like it could be a tear from the rotor hitting the shoe with force just as likely as a "slice".

This is all conjecture from any of us who post, right? Is there video of the crash?

tuscanyswe

02-23-2017, 11:03 AM

Maybe. If the damage on the shoe was caused from a rotor it could have been done without the rotor turning more than a half a revolution or so. The cut in the shoe looks to me like it could be a tear just as likely as a "slice".

This is all conjecture from any of us who post, right? Is there video of the crash?

I think theres a ton of difference. Yes much speculating. I do know tho, that if I'm about to get a weighted disc into my body i would prefer it to not rotate upon impact if everything else was the same .) Dunno if theres a vid, i guess we will have to take the riders word for it.

KJMUNC

02-23-2017, 11:13 AM

There are a lot of pointy things on a bike that could cut you during a crash. This looks like something a disc could do, but so could a chainring.

stien

02-23-2017, 11:15 AM

Sounds like a new product to me: disc rotors on freewheels that only lock when brake lever is pulled so if anything but the brake pad is rubbing, it just spins free!

tuscanyswe

02-23-2017, 11:19 AM

Sounds like a new product to me: disc rotors on freewheels that only lock when brake lever is pulled so if anything but the brake pad is rubbing, it just spins free!

Not a bad idea if it could be put into practice.

seanile

02-23-2017, 11:22 AM

However, as it was the cyclist's left shoe that got cut (the right shoe would be closest to another rider's disc rotors), I can't think of an easy way for this to happen.
could be a mirror'ed phone picture...so whether it's the left or right shoe is an unknown

There are a lot of pointy things on a bike that could cut you during a crash. This looks like something a disc could do, but so could a chainring.
not really. chainring stops spinning when you stop pedaling. rotor keeps moving until the wheel stops. further, most crashes of consequence happen at high speeds, when the chain is in the big ring filling in the chainring's spikey death teeth. so you'd just hit the broad lumpy surface of a non-moving chain if you came in contact with that.

pinoymamba

02-23-2017, 11:28 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPwDtl3ircY

fake news!

johnniecakes

02-23-2017, 11:30 AM

Maybe it was a rear and the motor kept running??:D

MattTuck

02-23-2017, 11:32 AM

Maybe it was a rear and the motor kept running??:D

POTD. Two birds with one stone. well done, sir.

guido

02-23-2017, 11:32 AM

I'm trying to figure out how he got the inside of his left shoe into the rotor of another riders bike... Interesting gymnastics...

El Chaba

02-23-2017, 11:49 AM

Let the excuses flow...the Disk Brake Immune System has been activated.

KJMUNC

02-23-2017, 12:47 PM

I think he's just pissed because he knows he can't get discs on a Pinarello :p

btw, I just watched two diff angles of the final 1km on Steephill.tv (http://www.steephill.tv/players/720/eurosportbrightcove/?title=Owen+Doull+crash+with+1+km+to+go,+Stage+1&dashboard=abu-dhabi-tour&id=5334085021001&yr=2017) and (http://www.steephill.tv/players/720/eurosportbrightcove/?title=Last+Km+of+Stage+1&dashboard=abu-dhabi-tour&id=5334056312001&yr=2017)

Doull got tangled up with another rider (Movistar?) and they went into the barriers....they fell to the left, and it looks like one of their bikes kicked back right and took down Kittel and the Giant rider next to him, as they both went down at the same time.

It's not clear from the video that Doull ever contacted Kittel, but he did hit the pavement and the metal barriers hard before Kittel went down and they wound up on the ground in different spots....not with Doull tangled up in Kittel's wheel or something that clearly shows bike-on-shoe contact.

11.4

02-23-2017, 01:08 PM

I call foul. This is as much BS as Ventoso's claim. He should at least have cut up his right shoe so he could explain how his shoe ended up in a rotor on the left side of a bike. Think about it.

Furthermore, the lower mark on the shoe shows a general rub area, a wider cut below it, and a razor cut above. The rub area is hard to understand, even if he was riding backwards down the course and collided with the one rider who happened to be using disc rotors. What would make that rub in line with the rotor? I'm not sure. The wider cut below the rub just might be a rotor, but those were supposedly rounded off and even if not, this isn't a meat slicer. The orientation will be changing as riders are crashing so I'd expect to see some scraping across the shoe and at most a very jagged cut. Not this. As for the cut above? That looks like a utility knife cut. It's not wide enough to get a rotor in there. BS. I'm not sure what the agenda is, but this is as fake as Ventoso's accusations were.

guido

02-23-2017, 01:22 PM

Exactly what i was saying...

I call foul. This is as much BS as Ventoso's claim. He should at least have cut up his right shoe so he could explain how his shoe ended up in a rotor on the left side of a bike. Think about it.

Furthermore, the lower mark on the shoe shows a general rub area, a wider cut below it, and a razor cut above. The rub area is hard to understand, even if he was riding backwards down the course and collided with the one rider who happened to be using disc rotors. What would make that rub in line with the rotor? I'm not sure. The wider cut below the rub just might be a rotor, but those were supposedly rounded off and even if not, this isn't a meat slicer. The orientation will be changing as riders are crashing so I'd expect to see some scraping across the shoe and at most a very jagged cut. Not this. As for the cut above? That looks like a utility knife cut. It's not wide enough to get a rotor in there. BS. I'm not sure what the agenda is, but this is as fake as Ventoso's accusations were.

ceolwulf

02-23-2017, 04:58 PM

guido

02-23-2017, 05:17 PM

I rode into the barrier and looked (was) stupid. Better CMA by blaming the disc bike...
Sheesh.

ergott

02-23-2017, 05:45 PM

ceolwulf

02-23-2017, 05:49 PM

Fake news

In all fairness, what isn't, these days

ergott

02-23-2017, 05:53 PM

In all fairness, what isn't, these days

I'm trying to keep it to a debunking of blatant misinformation.

Louis

02-23-2017, 05:53 PM

Yum! Make mine extra-thin.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/61/Meat_slicer.jpg/1200px-Meat_slicer.jpg

ultraman6970

02-23-2017, 07:28 PM

IMO there's a lot of difference in that test video turning the disc and going with the other surface perpendiculary than going in an angle, the other thing is that is different a disc rotating than hitting you straight and with an angle, no matter if the edge is rounded or not. So many scenarios IMO that is a really hard to know if this dude really got the cut due to the disc because well could be even not the disc but the caliper since is protruding off the frame or even a quick release axle tip.

Or even bad luck and hit something like a barriers hardware or pieces of wood, u go figure, there's a video of this accident?

rwsaunders

02-23-2017, 07:47 PM

Video from a helicopter.

http://www.velonews.com/2017/02/news/did-disc-cut-doull-race-footage-suggests-it-didnt_431165

kramnnim

02-23-2017, 08:41 PM

Funny how his shoe was so close to the spokes but didn't get chopped up.

lhuerta

02-23-2017, 09:41 PM

I think this is reasonably solid evidence ...

http://www.velonews.com/2017/02/video/video-can-disc-rotors-actually-cut_431182

Pretty clear that those rounded rotors are unlikely to be the culprit here.

Ohhh Caleb from VeloSnooze u should be fired for this sort of non scientific testing . A rotor need not be spinning in order to cause damage. The bigger culprit is the heat from braking. The accident today occurred as the peloton was revving up for a sprint. If we conservatively estimate they were rolling at about 35 mph, a sudden stop to avoid a crash might be enough to heat up the rotor, which upon contact with anything, even w/out rotation, might be sufficient to cause some damage on whatever it contacts. Duh?

572cv

02-23-2017, 10:37 PM

Looking at this from 10,000 ft, it would seem that while there appears to be a chance that riders can be hurt by disc brakes, it would also be the likelihood that disc brake effectiveness could generally improve safety in the peloton, on downhills, in wet weather at the least. So, the question becomes, what is the incidence of each? What is the tolerance for the increased incidence (presumed) of injury from disc brakes, in the face of a decrease in injury from falls on downhills, particularly wet ones?

In WW1, there was a standardization and improvement of helmet design. One effect was that there was a substantial increase in hospitalization for head injuries. Some generals complained! But the reason there were so many more head injuries was that soldiers were surviving. They didn't just die. The helmets worked. The whole exercise was an improvement. It just took a while for people to realize that was the case.

I actually don't like discs on my bikes, because they seem to require more attention to maintain tolerances, and my requirements are no longer race level. I love the minimotos on my new Eriksen. But in the pro peloton, they've got wrenches checking brakes every day. I will wait to see what the balance of favorable and unfavorable settles on over a reasonable time period. That will determine whether discs are accepted for the long term by the pros.

ColonelJLloyd

02-23-2017, 10:43 PM

A rotor need not be spinning in order to cause damage. The bigger culprit is the heat from braking. The accident today occurred as the peloton was revving up for a sprint. If we conservatively estimate they were rolling at about 35 mph, a sudden stop to avoid a crash might be enough to heat up the rotor, which upon contact with anything, even w/out rotation, might be sufficient to cause some damage on whatever it contacts. Duh?

Do you ride a bike with disc brakes?

nate2351

02-23-2017, 10:52 PM

Ohhh Caleb from VeloSnooze u should be fired for this sort of non scientific testing . A rotor need not be spinning in order to cause damage. The bigger culprit is the heat from braking. The accident today occurred as the peloton was revving up for a sprint. If we conservatively estimate they were rolling at about 35 mph, a sudden stop to avoid a crash might be enough to heat up the rotor, which upon contact with anything, even w/out rotation, might be sufficient to cause some damage on whatever it contacts. Duh?

I was frustrated with this video as well but for different reasons. In no way does this take into account the momentum a rider carries into the rotor. You can spin a wheel up to 50mph in the stand and shove a wrench in it and only pop a few spokes. But when you have a rider on there, even at a much more realistic 25 mph, you could pop a half the wheel. I've gotten up from numerous wreck to see wheels with half the spokes on one side broken.

kramnnim

02-23-2017, 11:26 PM

Better test would be to have a rider pedaling a bike on a trainer, and pressing the shoes and saddle into the rotor as he continues to pedal. Probably have the same results.

But, hey, people know who Owain Doull is now! :banana:

Dead Man

02-23-2017, 11:46 PM

What you get for not having custom carbon shoes.

batman1425

02-24-2017, 12:39 AM

I have a seriously hard time buying this. IMO the overhead footage shows that he and the rotors in question are going in pretty different directions after he initiated the crash.

The evidence after the fact on his shoe is interesting, I'll give him that, but one could argue he clipped some sharp edge of the barrier that he plowed into, perhaps an exposed screw or nail, or just a thin hard edge of metal rather than a red hot spinning blade of death.

I also find it interesting that some anti-disc pros are quick to jump on any possible injury that could be related to a disc brake and blast the propaganda. How many injuries or equipment damage like this happens in the non-disc peloton that we never hear about, its just "what happens in a crash"? I don't know the answer to that, but in some ways I feel like the apparent short fuse to blame discs in a crash is in a way, some riders way of rebelling against their integration into road racing.

dgauthier

02-24-2017, 12:41 AM

I was frustrated with this video as well but for different reasons. In no way does this take into account the momentum a rider carries into the rotor. (...)

Absolutely. The whole test is laughably timid. In addition to driving the wheel with the momentum of a rider, he should try to jam the shoe into the rotor hard enough to damage the rotor and frame.

A lot of unanticipated and unintuitive things happen during a real crash because of the tremendous forces involved. Who could guess handlebar end plugs exist for one purpose: to keep the handlebar from punching a hole in you during a crash. If one had never seen a handlebar injury before it would be very difficult to even imagine, let alone duplicate it on a test bench.

If only all bicycle crashes were as gentle as what is shown in that video.

oldpotatoe

02-24-2017, 06:26 AM

smontanaro

02-24-2017, 07:19 AM

They are still only a couple of millimeters thick and spin pretty fast regardless of rounded edge.

Plus with the motor, it just spins like a meat saw. :D

batman1425

02-24-2017, 09:06 AM

I'll add it here too

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/marcel-kittel-stops-using-disc-brakes-at-abu-dhabi-tour

and

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/chris-froome-disc-brake-debate-shows-riders-are-not-being-heard

wonder if it's more about 'being heard' than disc brakes..

Honestly, I think that is exactly what is happening. There is a sizable contingent of the peloton that is against disc brakes and creating (for lack of a better word) a high profile negative outcome is one way to get the powers that be to slow or reverse the transition and consider other paths that improve rider safety. It's a powerful tool for a contingent of people that don't feel like they are being listened to regarding rider safety. I completely get it, the riders want to be safe, and I'm not suggesting they are fabricating anything, but the potential for bias is high and riders seem to be quick on the trigger to blame discs.

rileystylee

02-24-2017, 09:10 AM

yawn:crap:

ultraman6970

02-24-2017, 11:57 AM

As long as sponsors are paying I doubt thie equipment will be off. The cutting issue is still at debate till real probes comes up (if there's any already), but the second big problems with disc is going to start now, which for me is a lot more easy to spot on and maybe even more important.

In the classics a slow change of wheel can get a rider off the race quite quick, and Im just waiting to see what is going to happen in the next weekends. Just one or two fav with discs losing a race due to a wheel change and I doubt we wlll see discs too often this season.

drewskey

02-24-2017, 01:08 PM

I'll armchair here too! Put on the tin foil hat.

""That’s why the crash happened, because we got stuck with our handlebars," Kittel said." (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/kittel-no-one-to-blame-for-abu-dhabi-crash/)

Well that doesn't seem correct.

Watch this (http://www.steephill.tv/players/720/eurosportbrightcove/?title=Owen+Doull+crash+with+1+km+to+go,+Stage+1&dashboard=abu-dhabi-tour&id=5334085021001&yr=2017)

At 0:26, you see Kittel push/elbow/whatever you want to call it Owain, who gets pushed into Ewen who goes into the barrier legs,

Per the steephill video, Owain doesn't unlclip into Kittel's bike. His left foot never crosses his bike as he is falling TO HIS LEFT. (http://i.imgur.com/Jag2A49.png)

What we do see in the linked video is a sharp metallic object that has rust; the barrier feet. (http://i.imgur.com/v73O0kd.jpg)

So in summary I believe that Kittel was at least partially to blame for his own accident and Owain's shoe got cut by the rusty barrier.

FlashUNC

02-24-2017, 01:10 PM

I rode a bike with disc brakes yesterday and I did not look like I spent an hour in a locked closet with Jack the Ripper afterward.

benb

02-24-2017, 01:35 PM

not really. chainring stops spinning when you stop pedaling. rotor keeps moving until the wheel stops. further, most crashes of consequence happen at high speeds, when the chain is in the big ring filling in the chainring's spikey death teeth. so you'd just hit the broad lumpy surface of a non-moving chain if you came in contact with that.

This is nuts.. I find it hard to believe anyone who has raced even semi-seriously would think this is anything but ridiculous.

Chainrings are freakin sharp, way sharper than discs. I've got several bad scars from race pileups where I somehow managed to get my leg in contact with someone's chain rings.

A chainring will slice you up real nice even if you hit it from the side. The pedals don't need to be turning at all.

Heck I have cut myself 2X on the chainrings when I was trying to get a pedal off. It's like the 1 thing in bike maintenance I won't do anymore without long sleeves and good work gloves.

Pedals and a bunch of other things will slice you up good in crashes too. Heck even downtime bosses for cables will cut you. Both things I've also been cut on.

The only time I had to go to the ER after a race incident was a tire slamming into my hand badly bruising my finger (smashed my finger between the tire and the brake lever). I had to go to get the finger drained due to blood pooling under the nail. Nothing sharp involved there!

I think there is something more odd going on here political. I don't really believe Pros are terribly smart/educated/scientific. They got where they are by having good lungs/hearts/legs and knowing how to be conformists and do everything the way the peloton myths dictate things should be done. They are making this a cause for the riders out of some desire to be heard since they have been getting tread on by everyone for decades now. Unlike chainrings and pedals disc brakes are not absolutely required but I really do believe they probably will prevent some accidents in the pro peloton too, and these guys injure themselves horrifically on a regular basis regardless of the type of brakes.

If the riders made any sense at all they would be ignoring disc brakes and demanding safer behavior out of cars & motos that are driving alongside the peloton.

drewskey

02-24-2017, 01:39 PM

Chainrings are freakin sharp, way sharper than discs. I've got several bad scars from race pileups where I somehow managed to get my leg in contact with someone's chain rings.

A chainring will slice you up real nice even if you hit it from the side. The pedals don't need to be turning at all.

.

Here's my leg after being sliced open in a crit crash last year by a front big ring. Everyone was in big rings. And I have no idea who's chain grease this is or whose chainring I hit. WARNING BLOOD: http://imgur.com/GG3ox0L

Macadamia

02-24-2017, 03:09 PM

Here's my leg after being sliced open in a crit crash last year by a front big ring. Everyone was in big rings. And I have no idea who's chain grease this is or whose chainring I hit. WARNING BLOOD: http://imgur.com/GG3ox0L

are you sure nobody was running discs? and maybe your leg slid across a glob of grease idling sitting by the side of the road

drewskey

02-24-2017, 03:10 PM

are you sure nobody was running discs? and maybe your leg slid across a glob of grease idling sitting by the side of the road

You know, now that you phrase it that way...

tuscanyswe

02-24-2017, 03:21 PM

Why are ppl so fast to say disc won't cause injury and we allrdy have a worse disc in the chainrings? That it is blown way out of proportion?

To me its kinda obvious disc could potentially cause very serious injuries. Just go to your butchershop and see what their meat cutter looks like..
That does not mean your chainring can not cause serious injury as well, i dont even see what that has got to do with it. Crashing in these kind of speeds even if you dont come in contact with anything on the bike can cause serious injury or even death. Is that a free pass to put more solutions that are potentially dangerous on bikes?

Does that mean no one should ride disc? Of course not, for me its not even about that. I dont care in the slightest who rides what and where.

But to ridicule the potential damage that could be caused by discs seems silly to me and if i were riding in a peleton i would prefer ppl around me to be on caliper brakes for now.

ergott

02-24-2017, 04:07 PM

Just go to your butchershop and see what their meat cutter looks like..

Ugh. :crap:

Disc rotors are approximately 1.8-2.0mm in thickness (when new). With a properly rounded edge, they’d be no more dangerous than a common 14g round spoke.
https://cdn-cyclingtips.pressidium.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/UCI-disc-brake-bungle-5.jpg

Mark McM

02-24-2017, 04:29 PM

Honestly, I think that is exactly what is happening. There is a sizable contingent of the peloton that is against disc brakes and creating (for lack of a better word) a high profile negative outcome is one way to get the powers that be to slow or reverse the transition and consider other paths that improve rider safety. It's a powerful tool for a contingent of people that don't feel like they are being listened to regarding rider safety. I completely get it, the riders want to be safe, and I'm not suggesting they are fabricating anything, but the potential for bias is high and riders seem to be quick on the trigger to blame discs.

This article today on Cycling News seems to consistent with the above comments:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/disc-brakes-someone-might-have-to-take-a-bullet-for-change-to-happen-says-hansen/

Mark McM

02-24-2017, 04:39 PM

Ugh. :crap:

Disc rotors are approximately 1.8-2.0mm in thickness (when new). With a properly rounded edge, they’d be no more dangerous than a common 14g round spoke.

I'm not a fan of disc brakes on (most) road bikes, and would be happy if the pros decided not to use them. But my concerns regarding disc brakes aren't much about safety. Sure, disc brakes may introduce a few new dynamics that may occasionally cause some injury in a crash - but there are so many other ways that parts of a bike may injure people, that I doubt that it will result in any increase in the number or severity of injuries. There may even be some compensation effect, where disc brakes slightly decrease the chances of some injury modes, while slightly increasing the chances of other injury modes - but I think it would largely be a wash.

Of course, I'm still all for prudent measures that may improve their safety. For example, rounding off the edges of rotors seems like a no-brainer, which will barely affect the cost of manufacturer and will have no affect on performance - heck, it might even make wheel changes faster, if the rounded rotors slip between the pads more easily.

Still, I feel that disc brakes on road bikes are much ado about nothing, producing little change in overall safety or performance, either plus or minus.

tuscanyswe

02-24-2017, 04:39 PM

Ugh. :crap:

Disc rotors are approximately 1.8-2.0mm in thickness (when new). With a properly rounded edge, they’d be no more dangerous than a common 14g round spoke.

Do you think i was trying to say that discs are the same as meat cutters ?
A disc like mentioned here can be hot and can be sharp (yeah i know they are now rounded in the pro peletons). But even if they were as dull as a spoke..
Out of curiosity. Would you want to put your finger or any other part of your body if fixated into a bicycle wheel going at high speed with a human on top weighting it down?

I believe that exact scenario has been known to cause an amputation or 2 when children accidentally put their foot in the wheels.

FlashUNC

02-24-2017, 04:55 PM

This is nuts.. I find it hard to believe anyone who has raced even semi-seriously would think this is anything but ridiculous.

Chainrings are freakin sharp, way sharper than discs. I've got several bad scars from race pileups where I somehow managed to get my leg in contact with someone's chain rings.

A chainring will slice you up real nice even if you hit it from the side. The pedals don't need to be turning at all.

Heck I have cut myself 2X on the chainrings when I was trying to get a pedal off. It's like the 1 thing in bike maintenance I won't do anymore without long sleeves and good work gloves.

Pedals and a bunch of other things will slice you up good in crashes too. Heck even downtime bosses for cables will cut you. Both things I've also been cut on.

The only time I had to go to the ER after a race incident was a tire slamming into my hand badly bruising my finger (smashed my finger between the tire and the brake lever). I had to go to get the finger drained due to blood pooling under the nail. Nothing sharp involved there!

I think there is something more odd going on here political. I don't really believe Pros are terribly smart/educated/scientific. They got where they are by having good lungs/hearts/legs and knowing how to be conformists and do everything the way the peloton myths dictate things should be done. They are making this a cause for the riders out of some desire to be heard since they have been getting tread on by everyone for decades now. Unlike chainrings and pedals disc brakes are not absolutely required but I really do believe they probably will prevent some accidents in the pro peloton too, and these guys injure themselves horrifically on a regular basis regardless of the type of brakes.

If the riders made any sense at all they would be ignoring disc brakes and demanding safer behavior out of cars & motos that are driving alongside the peloton.

I've got a buddy with a nice 20 stitch scar across his head from a crash involving a chainring sliding across his dome.

Chainrings are no joke.

ergott

02-24-2017, 05:41 PM

Do you think i was trying to say that discs are the same as meat cutters ?
A disc like mentioned here can be hot and can be sharp (yeah i know they are now rounded in the pro peletons). But even if they were as dull as a spoke..
Out of curiosity. Would you want to put your finger or any other part of your body if fixated into a bicycle wheel going at high speed with a human on top weighting it down?

I believe that exact scenario has been known to cause an amputation or 2 when children accidentally put their foot in the wheels.

You made the analogy, not me. I'd take my chances with a disc rotor before the spokes any day. Even worse, most spokes are ovalized or bladed. CX-Rays are 0.9mm thick.

Hot? They only get dangerously hot after hard braking and by that point most of the kinetic energy of the rider is gone (slower speeds). Bad peloton crashes are almost always at full speed. The rotational velocity of a rim is far greater and people have been known to get burned on a hot rim too. It's just not much of an issue.

I'm not for discs in pro racing, but it has nothing to do with the how dangerous the rotor is. The rotor would be the least of my concerns if I'm racing like those men and women do.

tuscanyswe

02-24-2017, 05:52 PM

You made the analogy, not me. I'd take my chances with a disc rotor before the spokes any day. Even worse, most spokes are ovalized or bladed. CX-Rays are 0.9mm thick.

Hot? They only get dangerously hot after hard braking and by that point most of the kinetic energy of the rider is gone (slower speeds). Bad peloton crashes are almost always at full speed. The rotational velocity of a rim is far greater and people have been known to get burned on a hot rim too. It's just not much of an issue.

I'm not for discs in pro racing, but it has nothing to do with the how dangerous the rotor is. The rotor would be the least of my concerns if I'm racing like those men and women do.

But its very hard for an adult rider to get a body part into a wheel and contact a spoke in the same manner one could a disc.

You made the analogy that its the same as a spoke, not me and they have been recorded to cut off body parts.

And again this is not about one or the other or the third (rotor spoke chainring) with discs you get all 3 and that was my original point. More risks..

ergott

02-24-2017, 06:25 PM

My point of the spoke analogy is the degree of how sharp a rotor is, not the situations in which you would actually strike one. Take a wheel and grab the spokes as hard as you can. They will not cut you. Rub your hand against the spoke, still no cutting. It's a dull edge that in the case of a rotor you run the risk of making contact with for fractions of a second. I just don't see the case where you would be dragging any body part across a spinning rotor for a prolonged length of time.

colker

02-24-2017, 06:48 PM

ergott

02-24-2017, 07:05 PM

So ... what is your objection to discs on the peloton? MIne is about to be clear on the following weeks, on the classics where flats happen, wheels are changed and of course: crashes all over the place.

Mainly no improvement over current rim brake tech. Pros mostly ride in great weather and have their bikes meticulously maintained. A rim brake bike (even with carbon rims) brakes every bit as good in fair weather. You're adding weight and complexity to a system that doesn't need it.

In the wet, I could see them preferring discs especially on hilly or mountainous terrain. However, the percentage of road races that are in dry conditions is much higher.

Advantages of disc are:
Using carbon rims (especially clinchers) on more varied terrain on public roads where you might end up needing to constantly scrub speed.

Wet conditions as disc keep the rims cleaner (nice when changing flats) and work better.

Lower maintenance. Sorry if people disagree, but I use an maintain my stuff a lot. The bike I've done the least amount of work on is my Endpoint with Di2 and hydraulic brakes. The only maintenance I've done since I purchased the bike was I replaced the pads. That's it. Bleeding brakes isn't a regular requirement at all if you set them up right for the get go. Same bike has carbon rims and I don't have to touch the wheels. I even took them on D2R2 with 0 concern for braking on some hairy descents.

It's possible to run more than one wheel diameter. I have a 700X25mm when I'm only riding roads around me and I have 650X40ish for heading off the asphalt.

Discs are also an advantage over long reach calipers or similar brakes that try to gain clearance over large tires. The discs don't care how wide your tires are.

colker

02-24-2017, 07:48 PM

Mainly no improvement over current rim brake tech. Pros mostly ride in great weather and have their bikes meticulously maintained. A rim brake bike (even with carbon rims) brakes every bit as good in fair weather. You're adding weight and complexity to a system that doesn't need it.

In the wet, I could see them preferring discs especially on hilly or mountainous terrain. However, the percentage of road races that are in dry conditions is much higher.

Advantages of disc are:
Using carbon rims (especially clinchers) on more varied terrain on public roads where you might end up needing to constantly scrub speed.

Wet conditions as disc keep the rims cleaner (nice when changing flats) and work better.

Lower maintenance. Sorry if people disagree, but I use an maintain my stuff a lot. The bike I've done the least amount of work on is my Endpoint with Di2 and hydraulic brakes. The only maintenance I've done since I purchased the bike was I replaced the pads. That's it. Bleeding brakes isn't a regular requirement at all if you set them up right for the get go. Same bike has carbon rims and I don't have to touch the wheels. I even took them on D2R2 with 0 concern for braking on some hairy descents.

It's possible to run more than one wheel diameter. I have a 700X25mm when I'm only riding roads around me and I have 650X40ish for heading off the asphalt.

Discs are also an advantage over long reach calipers or similar brakes that try to gain clearance over large tires. The discs don't care how wide your tires are.

MOstly agree except for 2 cases: 1- some races can happen under a blizzard and those races can involve long descents. Discs could work there.
2_ Even on public roads where you have to break often, rim brakes are effective. Even when it is raining and raining hard, i don´t feel i need more brakes unless i had to ride down a mountain and in that case, discs or not, it would be dangerous.

I checked the endpoint on line.. how did you put Di2 to work on that frame?

ergott

02-25-2017, 05:48 AM

The Di2 is externally wired and the battery is under the down tube by the BB.

oldpotatoe

02-25-2017, 05:57 AM

More today-

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/disc-brakes-someone-might-have-to-take-a-bullet-for-change-to-happen-says-hansen

mcteague

02-25-2017, 06:44 AM

I really don't understand all the consternation over disk brakes. I am satisfied with rim brakes but can see the benefit in adverse conditions. But, considering all the potential risks in racing, disk rotors would be FAR down the list I would think. However, logic rarely seems to be applied. In this recent case, there clearly appear to be rust marks on either side of the shoe cut. Pretty sure new disk rotors would not do that. My guess is some roadside barrier caused the cut.

As for the argument that mixing rim and disk brakes in the peloton would have too much variation in braking ability, I beg to differ. What about when aluminum and carbon rims are mixed? They don't exhibit the same braking performance, especially in the wet.

Maybe old spud is correct and this is just a proxy for riders feeling ignored on many issues.

Tim

Black Dog

02-25-2017, 07:23 AM

FlashUNC

02-25-2017, 09:37 AM

I agree that it may not have been caused by the rotor but the rust colour is likely dried blood from the cut in his foot.

He bled through the shoe? Ye Gods man, he should be posting photos of that wound instead.

ColonelJLloyd

02-25-2017, 09:52 AM

Looked like rust to me.

Mike V

02-25-2017, 12:29 PM

I'm not a fan of discs on road bikes but......

Skip to 5:00
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1212429488854372&id=593601667403827

mcteague

02-25-2017, 12:33 PM

I agree that it may not have been caused by the rotor but the rust colour is likely dried blood from the cut in his foot.

No, not blood.

http://keyassets.timeincuk.net/inspirewp/live/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/02/owain-doull-shoes-630x420.png

http://cycling.today/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/disc-brake-cut.jpg

Tim

ColonelJLloyd

02-25-2017, 12:34 PM

I'm not a fan of discs on road bikes but......

Skip to 5:00
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1212429488854372&id=593601667403827

You just got yourself kicked out of the gaggle, buddy.

Black Dog

02-25-2017, 12:43 PM

No, not blood.

http://keyassets.timeincuk.net/inspirewp/live/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/02/owain-doull-shoes-630x420.png

http://cycling.today/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/disc-brake-cut.jpg

Tim

I agree, looking at the pic of the cuts on his makes it seem unlikely that it is dried blood on the shoe. I did not see the pic of his foot. Thanks.

oldpotatoe

02-25-2017, 01:35 PM

I'm not a fan of discs on road bikes but......

Skip to 5:00
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1212429488854372&id=593601667403827

The guy ought to be fired for clamping that frame on a top tube.

Cicli

02-25-2017, 01:43 PM

The guy ought to be fired for clamping that frame on a top tube.

Yep,
I dont understand why people do that.

ColonelJLloyd

02-25-2017, 01:48 PM

Yep,
I dont understand why people do that.

1. Weight distribution.
2. Not enough seat post.
3. Fragile stickers/decals on the seat tube.
4. Steel frame doesn't GAF aka because you can.

Sure, there is potential for damage. There's also the very real possibility that no kittens will die and the world will not end.

MaraudingWalrus

02-25-2017, 03:47 PM

But its very hard for an adult rider to get a body part into a wheel and contact a spoke in the same manner one could a disc.

You're saying it's harder for a rider to get into the wheel than the disc?

Lets say you have concentric circles and they're both rotating about the same central point. One is is ~670mm in diameter, one is 140mm in diameter. Which one is easier to stick something blindly and at random?

tuscanyswe

02-25-2017, 03:54 PM

You're saying it's harder for a rider to get into the wheel than the disc?

Lets say you have concentric circles and they're both rotating about the same central point. One is is ~670mm in diameter, one is 140mm in diameter. Which one is easier to stick something blindly and at random?

Into the wheel than onto the disc. Yes.
Would it be easier to come in contact with a tire than a disc, yes ofcours and we c that more or less every crash.

ergott

02-25-2017, 04:01 PM

I'm not a fan of discs on road bikes but......

Skip to 5:00
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1212429488854372&id=593601667403827

I'm quoting this for the new page.

11.4

02-25-2017, 04:28 PM

No, not blood.

http://keyassets.timeincuk.net/inspirewp/live/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/02/owain-doull-shoes-630x420.png

http://cycling.today/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/disc-brake-cut.jpg

Tim

So ... The open torn hole in the sock is on the inside of the foot and nowhere close to any damage that's even claimed to be from a rotor. The tiny bit of bleeding half-way up the arch isn't really aligned either. And if this was all about a slicing cut we'd have a slice in the sock with a cut in the skin underneath. What we have looks more like a blunt trauma. The thing at the toe? Ditto.

The more illustrative part about the Velonews shoe and pigs foot slicing redux was the nature of the cut in the shoe they used. While shoe uppers will vary a bit, they really trashed up the leather while trying to cut it, and that was with two hands holding the shoe in place and no moving, crashing, or otherwise going on. Yet the offending shoe from the race has a thin fine slice? Ummmm, ..... ?

I think we're past the point of believing either Ventoso's account last year or the one this year. So when will someone just call it a farce? I understand respect to the riders and understanding their concerns about rider safety, but this is a pretty dumb way to try to make your point.

Macadamia

02-25-2017, 09:54 PM

warning horrifying carnage, not pro cyclist safe
https://www.instagram.com/p/BQ5-uhNFqff/

dgauthier

02-26-2017, 12:33 AM

So ... The open torn hole in the sock is on the inside of the foot and nowhere close to any damage that's even claimed to be from a rotor. The tiny bit of bleeding half-way up the arch isn't really aligned either. And if this was all about a slicing cut we'd have a slice in the sock with a cut in the skin underneath. What we have looks more like a blunt trauma. The thing at the toe? Ditto.(...)

The wounds on the foot would be aligned with the cut in the shoe if the foot were rotated within and slightly extracted from the shoe. This might happen when the foot is suddenly jerked up and out while the shoe remains momentarily clipped to the pedal. In other words, the crash caused his shoe to come off a bit.

Alternately, the shoe started to come off the foot as the shoe was being cut. The huge slash in the upper strap/flap certainly compromises the shoe's ability to snugly grip the foot.

I am seeing cuts in the sock at each spot of blood.

The wounds on the foot happened when the shoe was cut. It is not clear from the cut itself whether the cut was caused by a brake disk or some other sharp object. I agree that the rusty smudge is not blood from the wounds on the foot.

Tickdoc

02-26-2017, 07:18 AM

https://68.media.tumblr.com/72bf6598ba4715e701f43ea91113d086/tumblr_olyw5fTTy11qbw072o1_540.jpg

Black Dog

02-26-2017, 08:10 AM

https://68.media.tumblr.com/72bf6598ba4715e701f43ea91113d086/tumblr_olyw5fTTy11qbw072o1_540.jpg

potd!!! :d

11.4

02-26-2017, 12:16 PM

The wounds on the foot would be aligned with the cut in the shoe if the foot were rotated within and slightly extracted from the shoe. This might happen when the foot is suddenly jerked up and out while the shoe remains momentarily clipped to the pedal. In other words, the crash caused his shoe to come off a bit.

Alternately, the shoe started to come off the foot as the shoe was being cut. The huge slash in the upper strap/flap certainly compromises the shoe's ability to snugly grip the foot.

I am seeing cuts in the sock at each spot of blood.

The wounds on the foot happened when the shoe was cut. It is not clear from the cut itself whether the cut was caused by a brake disk or some other sharp object. I agree that the rusty smudge is not blood from the wounds on the foot.

Why would the foot get extracted from the shoe? I never see that happening. When's the last shoe you saw flying through the air in a bike crash?

The point is that the blood on the foot doesn't correspond in each case to the points where something (guard rail or rotor) cut through to the inside of the shoe. If he was hitting a guard rail -- as videos indicate -- a blunt blow is enough to cause skin damage inside the shoe.

FlashUNC

02-26-2017, 12:20 PM

I've gone on three rides now with discs. I still have all my limbs.

dgauthier

02-26-2017, 07:53 PM

Why would the foot get extracted from the shoe? (...)
The point is that the blood on the foot doesn't correspond in each case to the points where something (guard rail or rotor) cut through to the inside of the shoe. (...)

Maybe we are interpreting the photos differently -- or is that your whisky talking? :beer:

You mentioned "The open torn hole in the sock is on the inside of the foot". Are you talking about the big 2 inch bloodless round hole in the sock? The photo is of a left foot. That hole is on the *outside* of the ankle, not the inside.

When I look at the photo, I see a rusty smudge on the shoe, and two slashes at each end of the smudge. There is a 1.5 inch slash on the toe box at one end of the smudge, and at the other end there is a 4 inch slash that completely cuts through the leather flap that holds the shoe on the foot.

Do you see the 4 inch slash? That huge slit is not supposed to be there.

Cutting through the flap that holds the shoe on would be enough to cause the shoe to move around on the foot. (I said "slightly extracted", not "flying through the air".) The shoe only needs to move around about a half inch for the 1.5 inch slash on the toe box to line up with the blood spot on the big toe, and for the 4 inch slash on the shoe flap to line up with the blood spot on the top of the foot.

I respectfully submit the blood on the foot corresponds *exactly* to the slashes in the shoe. Can you see what I'm talking about?

MattTuck

02-26-2017, 08:02 PM

I've gone on three rides now with discs. I still have all my limbs.

I just had this image in my head of the old world war 2 era bombers that had a little bomb painted on the nose for each mission they returned from. You should do the same for rides that don't end in a severed digit.

bluesea

02-26-2017, 08:48 PM

Reading through this thread I've come to realize that as an older cyclist, equipment choices in the peloton don't affect me anymore. I may at some point in the future have to stock away a couple of cable-brake group sets and selective parts--no biggie. Let the drama play. :banana:

11.4

02-26-2017, 11:19 PM

Maybe we are interpreting the photos differently -- or is that your whisky talking? :beer:

You mentioned "The open torn hole in the sock is on the inside of the foot". Are you talking about the big 2 inch bloodless round hole in the sock? The photo is of a left foot. That hole is on the *outside* of the ankle, not the inside.

When I look at the photo, I see a rusty smudge on the shoe, and two slashes at each end of the smudge. There is a 1.5 inch slash on the toe box at one end of the smudge, and at the other end there is a 4 inch slash that completely cuts through the leather flap that holds the shoe on the foot.

Do you see the 4 inch slash? That huge slit is not supposed to be there.

Cutting through the flap that holds the shoe on would be enough to cause the shoe to move around on the foot. (I said "slightly extracted", not "flying through the air".) The shoe only needs to move around about a half inch for the 1.5 inch slash on the toe box to line up with the blood spot on the big toe, and for the 4 inch slash on the shoe flap to line up with the blood spot on the top of the foot.

I respectfully submit the blood on the foot corresponds *exactly* to the slashes in the shoe. Can you see what I'm talking about?

Ummm, I'm not drinking whisky. That's not an appropriate comment.

Do I see the 4 inch slash? Duh. Yeah. I've worn cycling shoes for forty years. I know when a slit is or isn't supposed to be there.

My problem with that big slit at the top is that it's a knife-edge cut. It isn't wide enough to have fit a rotor. Frankly, it looks like it was done after the fact to build evidence for a rotor injury. Perhaps it was a slice by something razor-sharp in the guardrail or something on the guardrail. But it's no wider than a knife edge would create.

The lower cut doesn't align all that precisely with the two minor blood spots, but my point -- if you read it -- is that those were very small marks and the kind that occur from blunt trauma through the shoe or by something on the shoe that basically pushed in and tore the skin. Now it doesn't really matter how those two minuscule marks happened. It's really about whether that shoe was a product of a rotor cut. To recap:

1. Videos of the crash show that he fell away from the rotor and towards the guard rail. He never made contact with the rotor.
2. It was his left foot and a rotor on the right side of his bike. He didn't flip upside down or anything until the offending rotor had moved on. There's no way his foot connected with a rotor on the opposite side of his bike.
3. The cuts are inconsistent with rotor damage.

At that point if you want to blame the two small marks on his foot on a rotor cut, you have to explain all the points above as well as the doubts I voiced.

dgauthier

02-27-2017, 03:07 AM

Ummm, I'm not drinking whisky. That's not an appropriate comment.(...)

Oh no! My apologies 11.4, I was just kidding you.

KJMUNC

02-28-2017, 12:07 PM

Completely non-scientific but demonstrates the point well enough for me: yes, if you take your bare skin and hold it against a spinning metal rotor it will cut you. If you do the same with your shoe (like is being alleged from the crash) you'd have to force it against a spinning rotor for some period of time before it cut the leather....something that is virtually impossible to do unless you're doing it on purpose.

http://www.velonews.com/2017/02/video/video-what-will-discs-cut-the-raw-meat-episode_431228

FlashUNC

02-28-2017, 12:14 PM

I just had this image in my head of the old world war 2 era bombers that had a little bomb painted on the nose for each mission they returned from. You should do the same for rides that don't end in a severed digit.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_uQjxiLDwmQQ/SA_nOTp8yfI/AAAAAAAABAk/9hsI-OT0EyM/s400/killmarkings.jpg

guido

02-28-2017, 12:49 PM

MattTuck

02-28-2017, 12:56 PM

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bike-industry-body-disputes-disc-brake-involvement-in-doull-crash/

"After the first material and image investigations, we can say that a disk brake accident can, most likely, be excluded."

Talk about conflicted! World Federation of the Sporting Goods Industry.... Mind as well be a report by the disc brake manufacturer's association. :cool:

Still, in this case, I don't think it was a disc.

11.4

02-28-2017, 12:58 PM

http://www.wfsgi.org/system/files/2017-02/Report_DiscBrakes_UZollinger.pdf

Here's the report commissioned by the industry to evaluate the Ventoso injury. It has a couple photos I hadn't seen before. The analysis is a bit naive, not coming from a cyclist, but it does seem to cover all the points. In particular the injury with the tooth marks on the perimeter is pretty telling.

Mark McM

02-28-2017, 01:35 PM

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bike-industry-body-disputes-disc-brake-involvement-in-doull-crash/

"After the first material and image investigations, we can say that a disk brake accident can, most likely, be excluded."

Ignore this report. It is a hack job, whose analysis is based soley on pictures found on the internet, and bought a paid for by an organization with a vested interested in promoting disc brake usage by the pro peloton.

It may well be that Ventoso's injury was not caused by a disc rotor. I'm having a bit of trouble believing that it was, based on the scant evidence I've seen. But one shouldn't put any weight behind this report, which is really no better than the pontification already found on the internet.

11.4

02-28-2017, 09:05 PM

I'd suggest that everyone just read the report on Ventoso cited above. Sure, the photos have been widely circulated. And sure, it was paid for by the equipment industry. I didn't suggest that you take his words as gospel. Just look at the photos and once again, explain how a left leg can get cut on a rotor that's on the other side of the bike. I see a lot of superficial injuries and what we see here isn't consistent with a rotor. Draw your own conclusion. I don't have a dog in this fight but I'd rather be shown a clear case of a rotor cut. So far, I haven't seen it.