1991-'something changed'

[oldpotatoe]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/blogs/author/robert-millar-a-peloton-at-two-speeds-and-a-new-breed-of-climbers/

"When we hit the mountains Greg starting suffering almost straightway. Gianni Bugno and Claudio Chiappucci were seemingly unperturbed by having ridden the Giro and simply left Greg and many of the other climbers in their wake. A serene looking Miguel Indurain and Rominger did the same and when it came to climbing, none of them got out of the saddle unless they really, really had to. They pulled a big gear all day, every day. Something had definitely changed."

[CunegoFan]

Changed? Let me guess. He and the rest of the boys were not all doping before 1991, and this "change" caused Millar to start doping in 1992 when he was caught using testosterone.

[54ny77]

why indurain (or any other superstar from that era) never gets called out has always been sorta puzzling. guess there's no proof via tests.

then again, i could really give a jamon. let 'em cure all they want. :D

[Black Dog]

Well it was around 1991 that epo had swept into the ranks. It is hard for people to believe this, but it is what happened. This was the 1st true oxygen vector PED. Yes there was doping before this but nothing that could do what EPO could do in terms of performance. This is where the Lemond vitriol will start, however, his VO2 max was well documented before epo and he was/is an outlier. To see him fit and putting out his usual numbers and to be left behind over the course of 1 year is not something that should not have happened naturally. Greg and those that did not jump on the EPO bandwagon were put at a huge disadvantage.

I can say that in the early 90's EPO was everywhere, including the amateur ranks. I saw it 1st hand when I went across the pond to pedal my bike in races on the continent. It was openly discussed in the pack and the speeds that guys were riding at while breathing through their noses was unreal. I saw guys drinking litres and litres of water and riding rollers in the hallways of the hotels because they were afraid of having a slow heart rate with blood that was too viscous due to the high amount of RBC. This was the era of young riders dropping dead in their sleep from cardiac arrest. As a young Canuk with other options my response was F**k that S**t. That response was not an easy option for a lot of those guys because there was no plan B or C.

I fully agree that the dopers of that era get a pass, especially Indurain. Not sure why. But really at the end of the day Pro cycling is a business, and as I have repeated often, it is the business of entertainment not sport. Non of this should surprise us. Pro and much amateur sport is a fantasy that requires us to suspend disbelief, just like a movie or wrestling. Enjoy it for what it is or for what you imagine it is.

[MattTuck]

I'm in the middle of collecting data for a big data visualization that I've wanted to do for a while. The data collection and parsing is incredibly dull and tedious, but I'm done for Paris-Roubaix. I'm not sure this supports one side or the other. And I realize that one day classics has bigger emphasis on tactics than the alpine climbs... so it may not be as visible here.

But basically, it is an attempt to say how many first time top 10 finishers there were each year. To me, this is a measure of volatility, which some might argue EPO would increase as more riders are able to be near the top.

[91Bear]

I remember watching the Tour of 1991 and wondering "What is wrong with Greg?" I thought maybe after two consecutive Tour victories that he had just let himself get caught up in all the interviews and commercials and not gotten himself into racing shape. But I thought by the second week, he should have been getting better - and he was falling farther and farther behind.

I also remember seeing a clip during the tour about the death of Johannes Draaijer and other Dutch cyclists who were dying in their sleep.

[William]

http://bikeraceinfo.com/tdf/tdfstats.html




William

[Saint Vitus]

http://bikeraceinfo.com/tdf/tdfstats.html




William

I guess the economy wasn't the only thing that was depressed in the 70's...

[redir]

If you haven't read 'A Dog in a Hat' it's a good read.

I watched Greg Lemond pass the torch to a young Lance Armstrong in the Tour Du Pont back in 92 or 3 on a cat 1 climb up to Mountain Lake in Virginia. Everyone just thought it was the elder Lemond on his way out but he was still racing strong. It was in a brutally steep switch back when Armstrong just gave on of his looks and poof - gone.

[CunegoFan]

If you haven't read 'A Dog in a Hat' it's a good read.

I watched Greg Lemond pass the torch to a young Lance Armstrong in the Tour Du Pont back in 92 or 3 on a cat 1 climb up to Mountain Lake in Virginia. Everyone just thought it was the elder Lemond on his way out but he was still racing strong. It was in a brutally steep switch back when Armstrong just gave on of his looks and poof - gone.

That was all the Ding Dongs, Ho Hos, and Twinkies that LeMond gobbled during the winter. Jan Ullrich had better off-season diet control than LeMond.

[superbowlpats]

Was watching the Marco Pantani movie while on the trainer. they mentioned riders wearing HR monitors with an alarm and when it went off for too low a pulse they got out of bed and rode the rollers in their hotel rooms to get their HR back up and the blood moving. :eek:

[redir]

That was all the Ding Dongs, Ho Hos, and Twinkies that LeMond gobbled during the winter. Jan Ullrich had better off-season diet control than LeMond.

LOL! At least Ullrich had some real European bakery pastries to fill up on.

[cachagua]

Where oh WHERE are the equipment manufacturers.

You'd expect them to be denying doping louder than anyone. I'm very, very surprised that they aren't crooning even more seductively than the riders and team managers. Baying like hound dogs! Howling at the moon!

They want-- no, their SURVIVAL DEPENDS on better performance being attributed to more cogs in back and mammoth bottom brackets. What? DRUGS is the reason riders are faster? InconTHEEEEvable! It's because of tapered head tubes, everybody knows that!

More revenue to be lost if their propaganda is disbelieved than if anyone else's is, you know? And yet they remain silent.

It's weird.

[cmbicycles]

... InconTHEEEEvable!

.

[BBB]

If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say 1990 was ground zero as seen by the Italians having a break out season (Bugno leading the Giro from start to finish for example). It was more widespread in 1991 (as Millar suggests). It was shoved down the public's throat in 1994 in the Fleche Wallonne.

LeMond is an interesting case. He scrapped through in 1990 on the back of a poor off-season and then illness in the early season. He hit top form in the middle of the race and was able to put the (then) unheralded Chiappucci and everyone else to the sword.

In 1991 he was in better form in the early season, but hardly the sort of form or condition expected of a defending TdF champion. He was in form by the start of the 1991 race and was the race favourite. He stormed through the first week (took time on the opening road stage, wore yellow and finished second to Indurain by a tiny margin in the first time trial) only to fall apart in the second mountain stage, eventually going down fighting for a distant 7th. As I recall, a slight virus was blamed at the time for his drop in form. Subsequently we heard about how the lead was effecting him and then much later on, the impact of EPO.

No doubt all of these reasons were valid, but I'd love to see his racing weight in 1991 compared to 1986 or 1989. LeMond is a much beefier boy in 1991 compared with two years prior. Look at his arms (a product of cross-country skiing in the off-season as I recall) for example. I'm not sure this did him any favours, nor did his Ullrich like battle to arrive at the start of the TdF in top form. It probably would not have changed the result in 1991 (or subsequently), but it can't have helped.

I think Andy Hampsten's comment on the early 90s says it best:

"Like Greg, I, too, saw what I believe were the effects of EPO when it entered pro cycling in the early '90s. In the first years it grew from a few individuals reaping obscene wins from exploiting its 'benefits', to entire teams relying on it, essentially forcing all but the most gifted racers to either use EPO to keep their place in cycling, quit, or become just another obscure rider in the group."

[cloudguy]

http://bikeraceinfo.com/tdf/tdfstats.html




William

Global warming!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[martl]

Well it was around 1991 that epo had swept into the ranks. It is hard for people to believe this, but it is what happened. This was the 1st true oxygen vector PED. Yes there was doping before this but nothing that could do what EPO could do in terms of performance.
This.

[oldpotatoe]

Well it was around 1991 that epo had swept into the ranks. It is hard for people to believe this, but it is what happened. This was the 1st true oxygen vector PED. Yes there was doping before this but nothing that could do what EPO could do in terms of performance. This is where the Lemond vitriol will start, however, his VO2 max was well documented before epo and he was/is an outlier. To see him fit and putting out his usual numbers and to be left behind over the course of 1 year is not something that should not have happened naturally. Greg and those that did not jump on the EPO bandwagon were put at a huge disadvantage.

I can say that in the early 90's EPO was everywhere, including the amateur ranks. I saw it 1st hand when I went across the pond to pedal my bike in races on the continent. It was openly discussed in the pack and the speeds that guys were riding at while breathing through their noses was unreal. I saw guys drinking litres and litres of water and riding rollers in the hallways of the hotels because they were afraid of having a slow heart rate with blood that was too viscous due to the high amount of RBC. This was the era of young riders dropping dead in their sleep from cardiac arrest. As a young Canuk with other options my response was F**k that S**t. That response was not an easy option for a lot of those guys because there was no plan B or C.

I fully agree that the dopers of that era get a pass, especially Indurain. Not sure why. But really at the end of the day Pro cycling is a business, and as I have repeated often, it is the business of entertainment not sport. Non of this should surprise us. Pro and much amateur sport is a fantasy that requires us to suspend disbelief, just like a movie or wrestling. Enjoy it for what it is or for what you imagine it is.

Well, all teams had doctors and EPO at the time wasn't 'illegal'. Like blood doping before 1984..essentially same result. Like DMSO with runners.

It was unknown, not banned so racers took it, saw great results. Same with runners. Marathon times were essentially unchanged(like 3-4 runners below a 2hr and 6 or 7 minute time), then early 90s, dozens in one year breaking marathon 'best times'..

These 'reasons' why 'some' got outta the pro ranks ..Like Gragus, Hampsten, Duggan..others.

[gemship]

Did something change in 91'?...maybe, errr, absolutely but...for those that remember you just got plain ole' old. The song remains the same I'd say.

[Aaron O]

I always just assumed it was the Nivachrome steels :p

[Black Dog]

Well, all teams had doctors and EPO at the time wasn't 'illegal'. Like blood doping before 1984..essentially same result. Like DMSO with runners.

It was unknown, not banned so racers took it, saw great results. Same with runners. Marathon times were essentially unchanged(like 3-4 runners below a 2hr and 6 or 7 minute time), then early 90s, dozens in one year breaking marathon 'best times'..

These 'reasons' why 'some' got outta the pro ranks ..Like Gragus, Hampsten, Duggan..others.

Fair enough. Blood doping was banned in 1986, but the question of wether or not EPO was blood doping is interesting. There is no doubt that it is not within the spirit of the rules.

[colker]

I always just assumed it was the Nivachrome steels :p

I am still trying to duplicate Pantani in the mountains on my EL OS bike w/ no results.

[weisan]

I am still trying to duplicate Pantani in the mountains on my EL OS bike w/ no results.

Did you ride in the drops the whole time?
That's the key.

[Lewis Moon]

Fair enough. Blood doping was banned in 1986, but the question of wether or not EPO was blood doping is interesting. There is no doubt that it is not within the spirit of the rules.

An old economics rule of thumb:
"That which is not prohibited, is required".

[oldpotatoe]

Fair enough. Blood doping was banned in 1986, but the question of wether or not EPO was blood doping is interesting. There is no doubt that it is not within the spirit of the rules.

NO doubt it was unethical and could be dangerous but it was like a lot of stuff in that gray area of the time. Not on the banned list, Doc says, give it a whirl. I've heard of guys shooting insulin behind their knees, lamb placenta blood, all sorts of scary stuff. Lots of $.

For weisan pal above..I GET IT!!! funny!

[weisan]

This, and the recent interviews with Eddie B, plus Armstrong's parting comment that he wished he was born into a different generation.... gives a fairly good idea of the prevailing atmosphere and the different factors at play.

[KJMUNC]

http://bikeraceinfo.com/tdf/tdfstats.html




William

Is it me, or does the slope of the line in the 90's not look any steeper than the slope in the 80's? and what's up with the massive spike in 1980?

[William]

Is it me, or does the slope of the line in the 90's not look any steeper than the slope in the 70's? and what's up with the massive spike in 1980?

There was a jump in overall speed in 81-82, bumped down for a year or two and then climbed back up and kept going. I suspect the change in course from year to year also effects the changes on overall speed...that and PED use. ;)






William

[colker]

Did you ride in the drops the whole time?
That's the key.


No... but i just shaved my head. My legs felt stronger coming out of the barber shop.

[weisan]

No... but i just shaved my head. My legs felt stronger coming out of the barber shop.

It's funny, I was gonna say "shaved your head" earlier if your back can't stand riding on the drops all the time.... but then I remembered, hairless or bald seems fairly common these days with our modern diet and genetics so you may already be wearing that hairdo.

[oldpotatoe]

It's funny, I was gonna say "shaved your head" earlier if your back can't stand riding on the drops all the time.... but then I remembered, hairless or bald seems fairly common these days with our modern diet and genetics so you may already be wearing that hairdo.

It's not uncommon for racers to shave ALL OVER, like everywhere to not be able to give a hair sample for a hair test..TINS..This Is No ****&&

[John H.]

I'm gonna say that at least one of those riders that you mentioned did not exit pro bike racing because he was averse to taking drugs-

Well, all teams had doctors and EPO at the time wasn't 'illegal'. Like blood doping before 1984..essentially same result. Like DMSO with runners.

It was unknown, not banned so racers took it, saw great results. Same with runners. Marathon times were essentially unchanged(like 3-4 runners below a 2hr and 6 or 7 minute time), then early 90s, dozens in one year breaking marathon 'best times'..

These 'reasons' why 'some' got outta the pro ranks ..Like Gragus, Hampsten, Duggan..others.

[cachagua]

It's not uncommon for racers to shave ALL OVER, like everywhere...


Only a pansy shaves. A hard man burns it off.

[berserk87]

Well, all teams had doctors and EPO at the time wasn't 'illegal'. Like blood doping before 1984..essentially same result. Like DMSO with runners.

It was unknown, not banned so racers took it, saw great results. Same with runners. Marathon times were essentially unchanged(like 3-4 runners below a 2hr and 6 or 7 minute time), then early 90s, dozens in one year breaking marathon 'best times'...

Why were runners using DMSO? My experience with it was brief. I got some years ago when I played football, through less-than-customary channels, for treatment of a badly sprained ankle. The stuff I used was a liquid that was applied topically to the injured area. Gave me death breath, but helped heal the ankle sprain much more rapidly than I would have guessed.

I don't recall ever hearing about an endurance performance benefit from it, directly. Were runners treating overuse injuries with it?

[Black Dog]

Only a pansy shaves. A hard man burns it off.

I ride so fast the air friction heat burns off my hair.

[choke]

Where oh WHERE are the equipment manufacturers.

You'd expect them to be denying doping louder than anyone. I'm very, very surprised that they aren't crooning even more seductively than the riders and team managers. Baying like hound dogs! Howling at the moon!

They want-- no, their SURVIVAL DEPENDS on better performance being attributed to more cogs in back and mammoth bottom brackets. What? DRUGS is the reason riders are faster? InconTHEEEEvable! It's because of tapered head tubes, everybody knows that!

More revenue to be lost if their propaganda is disbelieved than if anyone else's is, you know? And yet they remain silent.

It's weird.They don't have a need to say anything....the vast majority of cyclists have bought into the "newer is better" mantra.

[jumphigher]

There is no doubt that it is not within the spirit of the rules.

Seriously!

[oldpotatoe]

Why were runners using DMSO? My experience with it was brief. I got some years ago when I played football, through less-than-customary channels, for treatment of a badly sprained ankle. The stuff I used was a liquid that was applied topically to the injured area. Gave me death breath, but helped heal the ankle sprain much more rapidly than I would have guessed.

I don't recall ever hearing about an endurance performance benefit from it, directly. Were runners treating overuse injuries with it?

Long time ago, late 70s, early 80s, when I was a runner, before I saw the light..some guys I ran with(behind) used it. Some local running stores would even sell it. Gave ya garlic breath, kinda topical pain reliever.

[El Chaba]

Way back in the day, a teammate gave me some DMSO to help with some soreness that resulted from a fall in a race. So, one time when I applied the stuff, I didn't notice some adhesive residue in the area from some bandages for the road rash. In addition to the garlic taste, I had this incredibly obnoxious taste of burned rubber...I assume from latex in the adhesive.

[berserk87]

Way back in the day, a teammate gave me some DMSO to help with some soreness that resulted from a fall in a race. So, one time when I applied the stuff, I didn't notice some adhesive residue in the area from some bandages for the road rash. In addition to the garlic taste, I had this incredibly obnoxious taste of burned rubber...I assume from latex in the adhesive.

Wow. The DMSO probably facilitated the absorption of that residue. That's what it did - allowed easy permeation of tissue. It has been used in combination with other drugs to help with targeted delivery.

[wallymann]

Why were runners using DMSO?

i read into DMSO back in the day. my recollection is not that it did much on it's own, but was great at accelerating the absorption thru the skin of something else mixed in with it. you could grind up ibuprofen, mix in with DMSO, and it would do a better job of targeting localized pain where applied.

i guess you could mix other stuff in as well, maybe cortisone or even testosterone?

[Fivethumbs]

Eddy Bosberg talked about hanging it up early because he couldn't be competitive anymore.