Options for 11 speed Shimano gravel drivetrain

[DRZRM]

OK, so I'm waiting on a gravel frame this spring, and it will take a 12mm 142 TA rear wheel. I have Chris King and Industry Nine hubs available for the build. I'm going to use Ultegra RS685 levers. My question is what to do in back. I'd thought I'd use an Ultegra RD with medium cage, and an 11 speed 11-32 cassette, but the MTB cassette that fits on the Shimano 10 speed hub body only comes in an 11-40 or 11-42 (right?) which obviously is too big for that Ultegra RD. By my understanding, the MTB hubs cannot take the 11 speed road cassette, right?

Will an Ultegra lever drive an XT RD? Is there an 11 speed mountain cassette with a smaller range I don't know about. I'm used to Campy road groups and Shimano MTB groups, what are my options for making this work?

Thanks

[sandyrs]

If you want to use that 11-40 or 11-42 cassette with shimano road levers get a wolf tooth Tanpan and a shimano 11 speed mountain rear derailleur.

[oldpotatoe]

If you want to use that 11-40 or 11-42 cassette with shimano road levers get a wolf tooth Tanpan and a shimano 11 speed mountain rear derailleur.

err, like 10s stuff , I don't think road 11s levers are compatible with shimano MTB 11s rear ders(XTR/XT).

https://www.cxmagazine.com/shimano-xtr-m9000-11-speed-road-compatible-questions

A single ring set up and longer cage ROAD 11s rear rear der will handle a 42t tho.

[DRZRM]

Wow OP that article is almost 3 years old, nothing has changed? It seems like gravel bikes (stoners) are taking over, I can't believe there is still no functional drivetrain. I'm happy to use an 11-40 if that is the only way to go, but the 11-32 Ultegra would be enough for my local climbing. My current rim brake gravel bike has a Campy 12-30 cassette with a typical Record compact crank and mid cage RD. It's OK, I looked forward to the 32, but never thought a 40 would be necessary.

OP I assume that the "longer cage ROAD 11s rear der" is the SRAM? Is there a longer cage you can put on an Ultegra? Or one of those Wolftooth type things that works for 11-speed?

Seems like sandyrs has the right (only?) answer, assuming that I don't want to go 1x11 (which I could do, but I don't love the chainline on my 1x11 MTB drivetrains in the two climbing gears) the 11-40 XT cassette with the Wolftooth Tanpan (http://www.wolftoothcomponents.com/collections/derailleur-optimization/products/tanpan) for Shimano 11 speed. Then a XT rear derailleur (no clutch needed if I stick with 2x) with the long cage.

Is there an option out there for a longer cage for the Ultegra RD to do the same thing, or is that not a removable part?

[joosttx]

You can use a sram 11x36 cassetter (1170) , Ultregra mid cage Rd, and a compact crank with no issues. No, on a large cassette than that.

[echelon_john]

The issue isn't necessarily the derailleur/cassette, it's also the hub. I'm building a bike up now with a 142TA rear end, using Stan's Iron Cross wheels. They'll take a regular road 11sp cassette. So in that scenario running ultegra with 11/32 is very straightforward.

Maybe look at other hub options? Hope makes a nice one, and the Stan's ones aren't bad at all, either.

[DRZRM]

Yeah, I've thought of that, I don't quite understand the differences between Shimano Road 10, 11, and MTB 9, 10, 11. I hate to leave such nice hubs in the parts bin, but neither the CK Classic MTB hub nor the Industry Nine Torch MTB hub can take the Shimano 11 road cassette. But I guess it would be easy enough to just use the Shimano road cassette if I picked up some disc DT Swiss 240s and put on the Shimano 11 speed body.

[SpeedyChix]

You can use a sram 11x36 cassetter (1170) , Ultregra mid cage Rd, and a compact crank with no issues. No, on a large cassette than that.

I've run the setup joosttx posted above. Works a charm. You may need to turn the B screw in all the way, it'll depend on the dropout.

Yeah, I've thought of that, I don't quite understand the differences between Shimano Road 10, 11, and MTB 9, 10, 11. I hate to leave such nice hubs in the parts bin, but neither the CK Classic MTB hub nor the Industry Nine Torch MTB hub can take the Shimano 11 road cassette. But I guess it would be easy enough to just use the Shimano road cassette if I picked up some disc DT Swiss 240s and put on the Shimano 11 speed body.

Shimano made the 11-speed mountain cassettes fit on the "old" freehub body as the huge inner cog is adjacent to the spokes as they pull farther away from it than they would on a smaller cog.

Link to this stuff is below but here's a summary.
There IS one other option that would let you run 11-speed road cassettes on a non-11 speed road freehub body (that is on your CK or I9 hubs). There's a guy in Canada who machines out the rear of the cassette to allow using 28 and 32 cassette stacks "Ultegra is 125$ / 105 is 110$ (plus 18$ shipping)." Checked with him last week due to a project I'm working on, he's still making these.
Don't know if you'd have issues with inner clearance or not.

Or you can drop one of the smaller cogs from the stack (14t) and run your 11 as 10. Need to adjust limit screws so you don't use that non-existent 11th.
Take a read through this: http://darkspeedworks.com/blog-11speed.htm

[oldpotatoe]

Wow OP that article is almost 3 years old, nothing has changed? It seems like gravel bikes (stoners) are taking over, I can't believe there is still no functional drivetrain. I'm happy to use an 11-40 if that is the only way to go, but the 11-32 Ultegra would be enough for my local climbing. My current rim brake gravel bike has a Campy 12-30 cassette with a typical Record compact crank and mid cage RD. It's OK, I looked forward to the 32, but never thought a 40 would be necessary.

OP I assume that the "longer cage ROAD 11s rear der" is the SRAM? Is there a longer cage you can put on an Ultegra? Or one of those Wolftooth type things that works for 11-speed?

Seems like sandyrs has the right (only?) answer, assuming that I don't want to go 1x11 (which I could do, but I don't love the chainline on my 1x11 MTB drivetrains in the two climbing gears) the 11-40 XT cassette with the Wolftooth Tanpan (http://www.wolftoothcomponents.com/collections/derailleur-optimization/products/tanpan) for Shimano 11 speed. Then a XT rear derailleur (no clutch needed if I stick with 2x) with the long cage.
Y
Is there an option out there for a longer cage for the Ultegra RD to do the same thing, or is that not a removable part?

Mid cage 6800 rear der.

[RobJ]

If you want to use that 11-40 or 11-42 cassette with shimano road levers get a wolf tooth Tanpan and a shimano 11 speed mountain rear derailleur.

This.

I have the same setup. Ultegra levers, Shimano 11-42 cassette and the Tanpan. XTR RD. I also have the mid-cage Ultegra RD but opted for the XTR. The advantage of the XTR or a SRAM CX/Force 1 RD is the clutch mechanism. Avoid chain drops and slap when bouncing around offroad.

[DRZRM]

So you went 1x11? I'm a bit leery of that because I want this bike to feel capable on the road with slicks as well as on dirt and trails with knobbies. I'm leaning towards trying the Wolftooth tanpan on the 11-40 and keeping the FD with a standard compact. Likley stick an XT in back, but could splurge for the XTR.

This.

I have the same setup. Ultegra levers, Shimano 11-42 cassette and the Tanpan. XTR RD. I also have the mid-cage Ultegra RD but opted for the XTR. The advantage of the XTR or a SRAM CX/Force 1 RD is the clutch mechanism. Avoid chain drops and slap when bouncing around offroad.

[eippo1]

This.

I have the same setup. Ultegra levers, Shimano 11-42 cassette and the Tanpan. XTR RD. I also have the mid-cage Ultegra RD but opted for the XTR. The advantage of the XTR or a SRAM CX/Force 1 RD is the clutch mechanism. Avoid chain drops and slap when bouncing around offroad.

Rode with a friend at the VT overland and he had this setup except used a mid-cage Ultegra RD. I was jealous of the terrain he could sit and spin up, especially when I had to stand and risk losing the rear wheel on crappy ground.

[zennmotion]

A Sugino 11 sp 74/110bcd "compact plus" crank also gets you there with an otherwise standard midcage 5800/6800 drivetrain. A 30/46 or 32/48 crank setup is pretty sweet on gravel, and you can go to an even smaller chainring if you want. Plus, they're not so ugly as 4 arm cranks with limited chainring choices.
11sp OX901d is the expensive model, but an OX601d, officially 10sp, but will work fine as well and is less expensive
https://alexscycle.com/collections/road-cranks/products/sugino-ox901d-compact-plus-crankset

[DrSpoke]

If your hubs are previous generation(narrower) Shimano/SRAM 10-sp version then you have two choices.

The 1st option is to use the 11-sp mountain cassette which will fit this freehub, as previously noted. But you will have to change the RD to a long cage (usually XT or XTR) as the Ultegra will not wrap enough chain to run a 40t or 42t cog. The previously mentioned Wolftooth Tanpan will allow you to run the mtn bike RD with the road shifters. The added benefit is that the XT & XTR RDs have a clutch mechanism which almost eliminates chain slap and dropped chains.

The 2nd option is to change your freehub to 11-sp road. Many hubs allow this though there are many that do not. For DT Swiss hubs it's very simple - that is, no tools necessary. Not sure about CK or I9 though. I'd check w/the manufacturer.

The option I use is the Ultegra med cage RD w/a SRAM 11-36 road cassette. This works quite well even though the RD is rated for a 32 max. It may require an adjustment to the B-screw for cassette/pulley clearance. You can also install a Woftooth Roadlink which is a 1" extension to the derailleur hangar if you need more clearance. A couple of years ago there weren't many wheels/hubs with 12x142 axles w/an 11-sp road freehub and disc brake mounts. I ended up buying mountain bike wheels and converting the freehub to 11-sp road. This has worked out well as the wheels are quite strong and the rims are generally wider than comparable road rims. My wheel of choice is the previous generation DT Swiss XR 1501 wheelset at 20 mm width.

[sandyrs]

err, like 10s stuff , I don't think road 11s levers are compatible with shimano MTB 11s rear ders(XTR/XT).

https://www.cxmagazine.com/shimano-xtr-m9000-11-speed-road-compatible-questions

A single ring set up and longer cage ROAD 11s rear rear der will handle a 42t tho.

Definitely. That's why I said to get a wolftooth tanpan too. It's similar to a j-tek shiftmate and translates the cable pull between the road shifter and mtb rear derailleur.

http://www.wolftoothcomponents.com/products/tanpan

[sandyrs]

Wow OP that article is almost 3 years old, nothing has changed? It seems like gravel bikes (stoners) are taking over, I can't believe there is still no functional drivetrain. I'm happy to use an 11-40 if that is the only way to go, but the 11-32 Ultegra would be enough for my local climbing. My current rim brake gravel bike has a Campy 12-30 cassette with a typical Record compact crank and mid cage RD. It's OK, I looked forward to the 32, but never thought a 40 would be necessary.

OP I assume that the "longer cage ROAD 11s rear der" is the SRAM? Is there a longer cage you can put on an Ultegra? Or one of those Wolftooth type things that works for 11-speed?

Seems like sandyrs has the right (only?) answer, assuming that I don't want to go 1x11 (which I could do, but I don't love the chainline on my 1x11 MTB drivetrains in the two climbing gears) the 11-40 XT cassette with the Wolftooth Tanpan (http://www.wolftoothcomponents.com/collections/derailleur-optimization/products/tanpan) for Shimano 11 speed. Then a XT rear derailleur (no clutch needed if I stick with 2x) with the long cage.

Is there an option out there for a longer cage for the Ultegra RD to do the same thing, or is that not a removable part?

You could also look at the roadlink for a similar effect if you don't want the clutch. http://www.wolftoothcomponents.com/collections/derailleur-optimization/products/roadlink

It has limited range- you can go up to 11-40 only with cranks with a 10 tooth difference or less between the chainrings. I think the Tanpan with MTB derailleur gives you more options. You can always just run it with the clutch off.

[RobJ]

So you went 1x11? I'm a bit leery of that because I want this bike to feel capable on the road with slicks as well as on dirt and trails with knobbies. I'm leaning towards trying the Wolftooth tanpan on the 11-40 and keeping the FD with a standard compact. Likley stick an XT in back, but could splurge for the XTR.

Yes it is currently a 1x11 setup. I figured I have most of the mid to lower ratios covered and I don't envision using this bike on group rides or major road rides where I would be concerned about spinning out in a 38x11 gear. If I do hit a gravel ride/race that's predominantly road I could put a larger ring on front. I do have both compact/mid-compact and FD setup for the bike too if I ever feel the need to go to a 2x setup.

You could still use a 2x setup with the road levers and mountain RD to benefit from the clutch and just use a smaller range cassette. Of course still using the Wolftooth.

[RobJ]

Rode with a friend at the VT overland and he had this setup except used a mid-cage Ultegra RD. I was jealous of the terrain he could sit and spin up, especially when I had to stand and risk losing the rear wheel on crappy ground.

Good point too about spinning vs. spinning out...

[dem]

You can pretty much run any combination you want with the right widgets.

I do 44/30 (road FD) with a 10-42 rear (sram XD hub, MTB XTR long cage RD + Tanpan)

The only thing there DOESN'T appear to be an option for is full Di2 front/rear, you cannot mix road FD plus mountain RD because Shimano are jerks.

[rkhatibi]

On the gravel bike I run a XT long cage with Roadlink and Tanpan to a 11-42T cassette and 36/46T crank. On the road it's a lot of shifting so I swapped in the 11-32T when I don't have a weekend ride planned which is much nicer around town. I'm considering going to the SRAM 11-36T and dropping to 34/46T in the front to split the difference.

fwiw, the setup I'll end up probably won't require the long cage, but it's nice to have the option to go big if needed.

[DRZRM]

Is this what you did on the Gaulzetti? Roadlink, Ultegra RD, 36/46 cranks, 11 speed cassette? Looks great!! Not too much I can't get over on a 36/40, and what I can't is not the bikes fault.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1697918425&stc=1&d=1460483159

You could also look at the roadlink for a similar effect if you don't want the clutch. http://www.wolftoothcomponents.com/collections/derailleur-optimization/products/roadlink

It has limited range- you can go up to 11-40 only with cranks with a 10 tooth difference or less between the chainrings. I think the Tanpan with MTB derailleur gives you more options. You can always just run it with the clutch off.

[GScot]

Another Wolftooth success story for me. Wife's bike has 105 5800 shifter and crank with a Wolftooth 38T ring. On the rear she has a XT M8000 GS using a Goatlink and Tanpan with an 11-46 cassette. Hub is Record with Shimano freehub body.

I have a roadlink and 11-40 cassette with 6800 hub, derailleur, and shifter. Using CX70 front derailleur and 44/34 Wickworks rings on that bike.

Doesn't solve your hub problem but shows there are options for some really low gearing if you need it while still using mainly road components.

[DRZRM]

Confused again, why doesn't this solve my hub problem. With the roadlink and Ultegra RD, am I not using the XT 11-40 11-speed cassette which goes effortlessly onto my 9/10/11 142 12mm TA MTB hubs? I thought that was the whole point.

Another Wolftooth success story for me. Wife's bike has 105 5800 shifter and crank with a Wolftooth 38T ring. On the rear she has a XT M8000 GS using a Goatlink and Tanpan with an 11-46 cassette. Hub is Record with Shimano freehub body.

I have a roadlink and 11-40 cassette with 6800 hub, derailleur, and shifter. Using CX70 front derailleur and 44/34 Wickworks rings on that bike.

Doesn't solve your hub problem but shows there are options for some really low gearing if you need it while still using mainly road components.

[sandyrs]

Is this what you did on the Gaulzetti? Roadlink, Ultegra RD, 36/46 cranks, 11 speed cassette? Looks great!! Not too much I can't get over on a 36/40, and what I can't is not the bikes fault.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1697918425&stc=1&d=1460483159

Thanks for the kind words!

In that photo, I'm running an Ultegra medium cage derailleur, 53-39 cranks (don't ask ha), an 11-32 cassette, and no converters or adapters. It worked great. I've also used a 46/36 with the 11-32, medium cage rd, and no converters; that was obviously fine.

Currently (https://www.instagram.com/p/BOUmMV8jQqP/), I'm running a 42t narrow-wide, an 11-36 cassette, and the same Ultegra rear derailleur. Still no adapters. It shifts great and I dropped my chain all of once during last cross season. Even that was during a warmup. A friend is 3d printing me a prototype chain catcher he's working on just as insurance but this setup has worked well for me so far! It wouldn't be great for your use case, though, because the gearing doesn't get down to 1:1 or below. If I were mainly using this bike for hilly gravel riding, I'd probably use the roadlink and go back to a cx double with an 11-40 cassette.

All the input I've given about the Tanpan, Roadlink, etc. has been from my embarrassingly extensive research into all the possible drivetrain options I could use on that bike, but I haven't used either product myself.

[GScot]

Confused again, why doesn't this solve my hub problem. With the roadlink and Ultegra RD, am I not using the XT 11-40 11-speed cassette which goes effortlessly onto my 9/10/11 142 12mm TA MTB hubs? I thought that was the whole point.

It seems I confused myself. Yes, it does solve the problem.

[DRZRM]

OK, just for the next person trying to figure this out, figured I'd post the my results. I'm going to use my Industry Nine Torch hubs with an 11-speed 11-40 XT cassette, a Wolftooth Roadlink, Ultegra long cage RD, and an Ultegra road crank with 36-46 chainrings (PSA Competitive Cyclist is having one of their $50 off $250 which made the crank and RD together ~$200).

I though long and hard about going XTR with the WT tanpan so I could actually use a bigger cassette, but I don't like the inelegance of having one of those noodles hanging off my RD, I know I'm a prima donna. I also like the idea of a matching road group on this bike, and if I need that much gearing, I should be on a MTB anyway.

Thanks for all the advice, as always much appreciated. Pics will be posted when it all comes together. It will likely be less elegant than sandyrs's 'Zetti, but there will be a surprise.

[GScot]

OK, just for the next person trying to figure this out, figured I'd post the my results. I'm going to use my Industry Nine Torch hubs with an 11-speed 11-40 XT cassette, a Wolftooth Roadlink, Ultegra long cage RD, and an Ultegra road crank with 36-46 chainrings (PSA Competitive Cyclist is having one of their $50 off $250 which made the crank and RD together ~$200).

I though long and hard about going XTR with the WT tanpan so I could actually use a bigger cassette, but I don't like the inelegance of having one of those noodles hanging off my RD, I know I'm a prima donna. I also like the idea of a matching road group on this bike, and if I need that much gearing, I should be on a MTB anyway.

Thanks for all the advice, as always much appreciated. Pics will be posted when it all comes together. It will likely be less elegant than sandyrs's 'Zetti, but there will be a surprise.

Just FYI about the Tanpan, and not to make the decision more complicated, but there is also an inline version you can install at the front of the bike if you really do want to go big on the cassette.

[icepick_trotsky]

Why hasn't Shimano released a large capacity 11 speed road derailleur yet? Seem to be plenty of interested parties.

I would call it Grultegra, and sell it to every gravel racer around.

[sandyrs]

Can't wait to see the results!

[DrSpoke]

Why hasn't Shimano released a large capacity 11 speed road derailleur yet? Seem to be plenty of interested parties.

I would call it Grultegra, and sell it to every gravel racer around.

Yes - and w/a clutch. Or even a med cage w/a clutch.