Are Testosterone Boosters SnakeOil?

[josephr]

so...last fall life got in the way of stuff and only rode a handful of times b/t Nov, Dec, and Jan, knocked off from the gym for a few months and muscular atrophy set in. While I can still do my maintenance miles (32mi, 1700' ft climbing), I find myself struggling a bit and back at the gym, lost a bit of of muscle...

scouring the internet came up with lots of different diagnoses (as expected) but one that came up a lot suggested low testosterone levels....I'm due a physical with my doctor coming up and making a point to have hormone levels checked (not just the T)...so, not going to make any sudden changes until then. For the record, I fully accept my Cat 5/B-Group status.

But thought I'd toss this out to the group --- are the testosterone boosters the real deal or just snakeoil? anyone had their doctor put them on T-Therapy?

[echappist]

so...last fall life got in the way of stuff and only rode a handful of times b/t Nov, Dec, and Jan, knocked off from the gym for a few months and muscular atrophy set in. While I can still do my maintenance miles (32mi, 1700' ft climbing), I find myself struggling a bit and back at the gym, lost a bit of of muscle...

scouring the internet came up with lots of different diagnoses (as expected) but one that came up a lot suggested low testosterone levels....I'm due a physical with my doctor coming up and making a point to have hormone levels checked (not just the T)...so, not going to make any sudden changes until then. For the record, I fully accept my Cat 5/B-Group status.

But thought I'd toss this out to the group --- are the testosterone boosters the real deal or just snakeoil? anyone had their doctor put them on T-Therapy?

there are many ways to boost testosterone naturally: inter alia, reducing life stress, sleeping well, losing weight, and anaerobic exercise. As for struggling at the gym, did you really think that you can go back and immediately pick up where you left off? Have you forgotten how much work you dedicated in the first place to get where you were?

Assuming that this is life stress related (and not due to, e.g. some severely serious medical conditions), you've probably come to the wrong place to seek validations. But hey, there are enough "anti-aging" doctors out there who'd be more than happy to prescribe you a gel to boost testosterone artificially.

Tangent 1. There was someone on slowtwitch who sought a TUE for T after treatment for testicular cancer. USADA didn't grant him the TUE. If that's your case, screw the TUE and use the T. Otherwise, there are really not many conditions where taking T wouldn't be considered to be blatant and willful doping. There, I said it.

[josephr]

there are many ways to boost testosterone naturally: inter alia, reducing life stress, sleeping well, losing weight, and anaerobic exercise. As for struggling at the gym, did you really think that you can go back and immediately pick up where you left off? Have you forgotten how much work you dedicated in the first place to get where you were?

Assuming that this is life stress related (and not due to, e.g. some severely serious medical conditions), you've probably come to the wrong place to seek validations. But hey, there are enough "anti-aging" doctors out there who'd be more than happy to prescribe you a gel to boost testosterone artificially.

Tangent 1. There was someone on slowtwitch who sought a TUE for T after treatment for testicular cancer. USADA didn't grant him the TUE. If that's your case, screw the TUE and use the T. Otherwise, there are really not many conditions where taking T wouldn't be considered to be blatant and willful doping. There, I said it.

not seeking validation/advice and certainly not training to win Tuesday night group rides...just wondering outloud and hoping to hear from someone who's maybe been there rather than the typical internet hoopla.

[jimcav]

so...last fall life got in the way of stuff and only rode a handful of times b/t Nov, Dec, and Jan, knocked off from the gym for a few months and muscular atrophy set in. While I can still do my maintenance miles (32mi, 1700' ft climbing), I find myself struggling a bit and back at the gym, lost a bit of of muscle...

scouring the internet came up with lots of different diagnoses (as expected) but one that came up a lot suggested low testosterone levels....I'm due a physical with my doctor coming up and making a point to have hormone levels checked (not just the T)...so, not going to make any sudden changes until then. For the record, I fully accept my Cat 5/B-Group status.

But thought I'd toss this out to the group --- are the testosterone boosters the real deal or just snakeoil? anyone had their doctor put them on T-Therapy?
Your doctor can easily see if your symptoms and lab values warrant it. Over training can case low T--I've seen that. I've seen a few guys over the years who abused/used anabolics and had trouble with low T after they outgrew their compulsive body building/competing phase and stopped the drugs. one recovered on his own eventually (months), one was on testosterone last I heard, another jump started by taking clomid for months.
Clomid was the only thing I ever heard that actually worked--just google it, or check out the articles on pubmed.
Good luck--do what is right for you

[Ralph]

Pretty much....According to my urologist.....who is an avid cyclist. And he won't prescribe any T treatment unless you need it for health reasons. No energy, sleeping all the time, stuff like that. Blood work also has to support the treatment necessity.

[gasman]

Testosterone replacement doesn't do much positive in spite of what all the advertisements claim. In at least one double blind study showed no increase in energy or muscle mass in older men with low testosterone levels.
Taking testosterone will inhibit your natural production of T and your testicles will decrease in size. It also increases your risk of stroke and heart attack.

I discussed this with my Urologist last Dec and he said he has stopped prescribing T unless someone has a very low level. Mine was in the normal range .

[stephenmarklay]

You just need to get blood work done. You may have low T but you may not. I had low T but was still able to function fairly well. It was only really hard workouts that I felt more.

[shovelhd]

Take all the drugs you want, just don't pin on a number.

[ergott]

Take all the drugs you want, just don't pin on a number.

And stay off Strava!
;)

[Tandem Rider]

I'm not an MD, so this is just thinking out loud, but if T increases growth and recovery of muscles and energy stores, wouldn't it also provide that service for anything undesirable such as cancer? Any MD with insight?

[stephenmarklay]

so...last fall life got in the way of stuff and only rode a handful of times b/t Nov, Dec, and Jan, knocked off from the gym for a few months and muscular atrophy set in. While I can still do my maintenance miles (32mi, 1700' ft climbing), I find myself struggling a bit and back at the gym, lost a bit of of muscle...

scouring the internet came up with lots of different diagnoses (as expected) but one that came up a lot suggested low testosterone levels....I'm due a physical with my doctor coming up and making a point to have hormone levels checked (not just the T)...so, not going to make any sudden changes until then. For the record, I fully accept my Cat 5/B-Group status.

But thought I'd toss this out to the group --- are the testosterone boosters the real deal or just snakeoil? anyone had their doctor put them on T-Therapy?

No I don’t think so but they work in varying degrees and it would seem putting on muscle mass is probably not going to happen with them. However, they may give you a bit more ability to recoup after a workout, increase libido and have some general positive mood effects. Go to suppversity.com and type in testosterone for actual testosterone info and T-booster for supplements and you should have a bit to read.

[2LeftCleats]

If T is actually low (and it ought to be measured in the AM twice to be sure, along with checking other hormone levels), replacement therapy could help. But often T levels don't correlate very well with symptoms. Fatigue, lack of energy and endurance have plenty of other possible causes as noted above. If levels are low and symptoms are suggestive I sometimes prescribe it, but often the recipient gives up on it after seeing little improvement. And then there's the cost, which is about $300 a month. Insurers sometimes help out but they don't like to pay for it. There have been concerns about prostate cancer and cardiovascular disease, but the latest I've seen suggests there isn't a strong connection. You do have to watch elevated red cell count which can get dangerously high.

[timnem70]

Take all the drugs you want, just don't pin on a number.
Thanks for that
I was top 10 for my age class for a few years until this Low T craze was created by pharmaceutical companies trying to increase their market share. Now I can't even compete in my local crits because I suspect lots are on some form of this. I'm 46, did the same thing this winter (only rode a few times) and lost a lot of my mass and definition but hard work and dedication will regain all that. Like another said,"think of all the work you put in to get that way. The test for Low T is fairly expensive too and isn't covered by most insurance companies. It has gone from the building block of steroids to a "lifestyle" drug. If you want to get bigger and get the feeling of young back... get back on the saddle and leave the drugs at home. Their are shortcuts but I suspect we will find out in 10 years that the shortcut leads you off a cliff.

Galaxy S7 Edge

[timnem70]

I also could not put on weight since 16 years of age no matter the protein shakes etc.. Had some lethargy and other symptoms you've described. Found out my Thyroid was not working right. My MD put me on a low dose and those symptoms have abated to the point I don't have that problem any longer. I weighed 152 pds 6'0 since 15years. (Sometimes a little more, sometimes less) now 172 pounds 4% body fat and 46 years old. For all everyone has said, testosterone replacement therapy can have benefits. However for all intents and purposes and particularly in this case, correct me if wrong, lime me you were lazy this winter and want to quickly get back to your form. That's not replacement it's cheating. IMO

Galaxy S7 Edge

[benb]

If you were asking about the various supplements from what I've read some of them do actually work.. because you don't know what is in them and from time to time they are actually contaminated/spiked with actual Testosterone. I'd be afraid of most of the stuff beyond Protein powder, creatine, and multivitamins at places like GNC. The more the product is marketed to boost T the more I'd be afraid it actually is spiked with T or Steroids and you're setting yourself up for trouble.

Those T therapies the pharma companies and some doctors seem to be abusing also seem dangerous as there are cardiac side effects and other things. A friend's father got himself on it and had a heart attack they think was linked to using it. He wasn't an athlete so he must have had some other reason to want to do it.

[Chris]

I'm not an MD, so this is just thinking out loud, but if T increases growth and recovery of muscles and energy stores, wouldn't it also provide that service for anything undesirable such as cancer? Any MD with insight?

Not an MD, but there is some speculation that our T levels drop as we age as a natural protector against some cancer such as cancer of the prostate and testicular cancer.

[rnhood]

Yes, its very natural and a part of life. But that will not stop a few that continue looking for Ponce's fountain. They just keep on looking at seemingly any expense. I have no sympathy when they run into troubles.

[parco]

If the T booster is taken orally it gets filtered by the liver and there is no benefit. Other than being injected I've heard about patches but I don't know much about how effective they are.

[timnem70]

So, for me just like Benb said, I buy the Most wicked weight gainer GNC carries, with whole milk 1 serving is 2400 calories (I know right?!!) And take it after my ride. It has a time of protein,the right amount of Creatine etc. It keeps me right at my target weight (i also eat fresh vegetables as much as possible) and if I start getting a gut, do sit ups or just cut the service get size. It has worked for me and I know what's going into my body.

Galaxy S7 Edge

[Kirk007]

seconding others, my doc, who is the team physician for a major league baseball team said yeah, if you test low I can prescribe but the tradeoff is increased risk of prostate cancer - which do you prefer?

[stephenmarklay]

seconding others, my doc, who is the team physician for a major league baseball team said yeah, if you test low I can prescribe but the tradeoff is increased risk of prostate cancer - which do you prefer?

This is also in debate right now. In fact there was a recent study that very high does Testosterone actually cured prostate cancer.

[stephenmarklay]

If the T booster is taken orally it gets filtered by the liver and there is no benefit. Other than being injected I've heard about patches but I don't know much about how effective they are.

I am not sure I agree with you on this one.

[stephenmarklay]

Not an MD, but there is some speculation that our T levels drop as we age as a natural protector against some cancer such as cancer of the prostate and testicular cancer.

I certainly have pondered this. I even wonder if eating tons of protein and calories in general to stimulate MTOR is not a good thing.

[stephenmarklay]

If you were asking about the various supplements from what I've read some of them do actually work.. because you don't know what is in them and from time to time they are actually contaminated/spiked with actual Testosterone. I'd be afraid of most of the stuff beyond Protein powder, creatine, and multivitamins at places like GNC. The more the product is marketed to boost T the more I'd be afraid it actually is spiked with T or Steroids and you're setting yourself up for trouble.

Those T therapies the pharma companies and some doctors seem to be abusing also seem dangerous as there are cardiac side effects and other things. A friend's father got himself on it and had a heart attack they think was linked to using it. He wasn't an athlete so he must have had some other reason to want to do it.

I do think that spiking of supplements is a real concern.

[GregL]

I was top 10 for my age class for a few years until this Low T craze was created by pharmaceutical companies trying to increase their market share. Now I can't even compete in my local crits because I suspect lots are on some form of this. I'm 46, did the same thing this winter (only rode a few times) and lost a lot of my mass and definition but hard work and dedication will regain all that. Like another said,"think of all the work you put in to get that way. The test for Low T is fairly expensive too and isn't covered by most insurance companies. It has gone from the building block of steroids to a "lifestyle" drug. If you want to get bigger and get the feeling of young back... get back on the saddle and leave the drugs at home. Their are shortcuts but I suspect we will find out in 10 years that the shortcut leads you off a cliff.
Couldn't agree more. A guy I know was using a gel as treatment for low T while at the same time getting great race results. When our state USA Cycling affiliated racing organization started targeted masters drug testing, the gentleman in question stopped racing sanctioned races...

You're 100% right about the hard work too. I had shoulder surgery in October. Being forced off the bike and out of the gym made me very motivated. It pushed me to work as hard as I can remember in many years to recover my fitness. Now I'm looking forward to a strong, pain-free, and drug-free racing season:hello:.

Greg

[timnem70]

Couldn't agree more. A guy I know was using a gel as treatment for low T while at the same time getting great race results. When our state USA Cycling affiliated racing organization started targeted masters drug testing, the gentleman in question stopped racing sanctioned races...

You're 100% right about the hard work too. I had shoulder surgery in October. Being forced off the bike and out of the gym made me very motivated. It pushed me to work as hard as I can remember in many years to recover my fitness. Now I'm looking forward to a strong, pain-free, and drug-free racing season:hello:.

Greg
Way to go Greg[emoji3] Everyone, keep it up. Don't give in to the Pharmaceutical companies more then we already do.

Galaxy S7 Edge

[gasman]

This is also in debate right now. In fact there was a recent study that very high does Testosterone actually cured prostate cancer.

Interesting, hadn't heard that. I have two biking buddies that got orchiectomies for their prostate cancer. They both still ride and said it was hard getting back in shape but they are okay at the moment.

[mgm777]

Slight thread drift....

For the docs, has there been any medical research that links cycling to an increased risk or rate of prostate cancer?

[gasman]

Slight thread drift....

For the docs, has there been any medical research that links cycling to an increased risk or rate of prostate cancer?

None
Only increased risk of prostatitis which can be no fun from what I've heard.

[mgm777]

Gasman -- Thank you.

[gasman]

Gasman -- Thank you.

You bet.:beer:

[jimcav]

Slight thread drift....

For the docs, has there been any medical research that links cycling to an increased risk or rate of prostate cancer?

pubmed is easy to search:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26999116

[gasman]

pubmed is easy to search:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26999116

True but it's well known prostatitis raises your PSA as does having sex before a PSA level is drawn.

[stephenmarklay]

Interesting, hadn't heard that. I have two biking buddies that got orchiectomies for their prostate cancer. They both still ride and said it was hard getting back in shape but they are okay at the moment.

I personally feel like some of the medical practices we adhered to today are archaic and are akin to a frontal lobotomy. This is one of them.

[dziehr]

seconding others, my doc, who is the team physician for a major league baseball team said yeah, if you test low I can prescribe but the tradeoff is increased risk of prostate cancer - which do you prefer?

Experimental models have shown that exogenous testosterone can drive prostate cancer though, to my knowledge, there's no strong correlate in humans. I'm sure some of this is due to lack of equipoise. That is, since a mainstay of therapy of some types of prostate cancer is androgen deprivation (in the past achieved with orchiectomy and now with androgen blockers, GnRH agonists/antagonists, and newer agents), investigators (and IRBs) probably aren't to keen to give testosterone to men with prostate cancer for fear of accelerating the disease. Huggins and Hodges won a Nobel Prize in the 1960s for their work on the role of androgens in prostate cancer and numerous studies have shown that for men with particular types of prostate cancer, androgen deprivation is life-saving or life-prolonging. An important distinction in prostate cancer is the disease's sensitivity to androgen blocking medications; early disease is often stopped but mutations can render these medications ineffective.

You could argue that while there are no good studies of testosterone replacement in patients with prostate cancer, the administration of the medication to any middle-aged men is a natural experiment, as a significant percentage will have pre-cancer (prostatic intraepithelial neoplasia) or frank indolent prostate cancer (as confirmed by some post-mortem studies that show indolent/undiagnosed disease in folks dying of other causes, >50% in men >70). That similar men do not develop explosive disease could be seen as validation of the safety of testosterone regarding cancer risk. However, importantly, not all prostate cancer is created equally and we're still trying to understand why some disease is aggressive and other is indolent.

There's no good answer for the questions raised here. In short, the decision to administer testosterone should be tailored to a patient and his medical history. For men without a history of prostate cancer or significant risk factors, I feel the decision to pursue testosterone replacement should be made in conjunction with an endocrinologist. For men with (or with a history of) prostate cancer, talk with your medical oncologist. Some medical oncologists will give testosterone to men who have had their prostate cancer cured, though I'm not sure how widespread this is.

Nota bene: not a urologic oncologist or urologist, though I'm a physician and formerly studied prostate cancer from a few angles.

[weiwentg]

I found this thread while searching for a different topic. I just wanted to say that I was feeling like I might have hypogonadism, i.e. low testosterone. Mine was at the low end of the normal range. The endocrinologist offered to prescribe me testosterone or Clomid, leaning towards Clomid due to lower side effects. However, he wanted me to take a confirmatory testosterone test first.

That test indicated I had elevated prolactin levels. Prolactin is the lactating women's hormone. What causes that in men? Apparently, a benign tumor on the pituitary gland called a prolactinoma (https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/prolactinoma/symptoms-causes/syc-20376958). I had to get an MRI to confirm that, but I started on a dopamine agonist called cabergoline. Just throwing this out there in case it helps anyone.

Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prolactinoma#cite_note-pmid20809113-6) cited a study estimating that 6-25% of deceased US residents have small pituitary tumors. These may or may not cause a noticeable effect. I haven't examined the study. It's probably a rare thing, but if your testosterone is low, an endocrinologist will probably check this hormone. My primary care doctor did not think to order it measured during my first lab test.

For those of you who actually want to play by the rules and get a TUE for clomid or testosterone, I think that USADA won't grant one for low-normal testosterone. They require testosterone lower than the reference range (i.e. I wouldn't have qualified), and I think their literature said they would need some documentation of the organic cause of the low T. Cabergoline or dopamine agonists (also used for Parkinson's disease, but they prefer the second generation agonists, whereas cabergoline is first gen) in general don't appear to be on WADA's prohibited list (https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/wada_2019_english_prohibited_list.pdf). I mean, honestly, if there weren't a clear cause of low T, I might have just got clomid anyway and not competed in a sanctioned race. The problem is 'competing' in gran fondos and the like. So, I'm pretty thankful I have a clear cause.

[redir]

Anything sold as a miracle for this and a miracle for that is probably just the opposite.

My understanding is that T only works by injection, otherwise it's marketing.

[benb]

Funny thread to get resurrected.

Cycling is not a sport for getting jacked and getting your muscle mass back anyway.

It's a sport that burns you up and makes you get skinny and fatigued.

You get older and your body starts to lose muscle normally and it just gets worse.

Drugs + cycling isn't the solution, more focus on resistance training vs cycling is if you want to build muscle.

I'm only in my mid 40s.. joined this website when I was 29 I think. The difference for me in terms of how fast cycling will burn up my muscle mass other than my legs is kind of crazy. Focus on cycling too long and my upper body pays for it a heck of a lot faster than 10-15 years ago. It seems like the resistance exercise is way more important now.

I've always been the hard-gainer/loses-weight-easy type though. It seems like we get way too skinny too easily as we get older whereas easy muscle guys pack on fat in middle age a lot easier than they did when younger but have it a bit easier with maintaining muscle.

[enr1co]

Be prepared to buy larger jerseys :D

[tuscanyswe]

Yes, its very natural and a part of life. But that will not stop a few that continue looking for Ponce's fountain. They just keep on looking at seemingly any expense. I have no sympathy when they run into troubles.

Its not natural as in its just a part of life if you actually have low testosterone. This is why we have a "normal" range if you are outside it there is likely a reason for it. The normal range for T is huge meaning someone could have tripple the amount of another man and they could still both fall in the normal range. And if you are at the bottom of it you may experience symptoms. Symptoms however often correlates more with free testosterone than total testosterone so one would want to check that out as well.

As for plant boosters and stuff they can work but they also only do so for a certain amount of time. The body has feedback system and if it sense to much allrdy it will lower its natural production and perhaps leave u even lower than previously. This is why you cycles a lot of these drugs / boosters. How well one responds to drugs or boosters is very individual. Some can have a big response while others feel nothing..

[tuscanyswe]

Anything sold as a miracle for this and a miracle for that is probably just the opposite.

My understanding is that T only works by injection, otherwise it's marketing.

Not true. Most T therapy in europe is by gel as it more closely mimics the bodys own cycles as u take it every day opposed to once every x weeks with injections.

But perhaps u meant that only supplementing with real testosterone will work?

I dont think thats the case either. I think its very dependant on why and what the cause for your low levels are to begin with. If u have a pituary problem replacing the signal (lh) substance for the testies to produce their own T again can certainly elevate testosterone levels. Then the issues was them not getting the signal to produce any for a variety of reasons.

[tuscanyswe]

Funny thread to get resurrected.

Cycling is not a sport for getting jacked and getting your muscle mass back anyway.

It's a sport that burns you up and makes you get skinny and fatigued.

You get older and your body starts to lose muscle normally and it just gets worse.

Drugs + cycling isn't the solution, more focus on resistance training vs cycling is if you want to build muscle.

I'm only in my mid 40s.. joined this website when I was 29 I think. The difference for me in terms of how fast cycling will burn up my muscle mass other than my legs is kind of crazy. Focus on cycling too long and my upper body pays for it a heck of a lot faster than 10-15 years ago. It seems like the resistance exercise is way more important now.

I've always been the hard-gainer/loses-weight-easy type though. It seems like we get way too skinny too easily as we get older whereas easy muscle guys pack on fat in middle age a lot easier than they did when younger but have it a bit easier with maintaining muscle.

I think this is true. Its perhaps also true that a certain body type become good at cycling and therefor enjoy it and continue to do it and then have a hard time to put on muscle but they likely always did just more noticable as we get older. But so many variables with humans. None are a like.

[verticaldoug]

seconding others, my doc, who is the team physician for a major league baseball team said yeah, if you test low I can prescribe but the tradeoff is increased risk of prostate cancer - which do you prefer?

So we can start the prostate fire with steroids, and then throw gasoline on the fire with Hgh.

I'd just stay away from the stuff. Age with class.

[redir]

Not true. Most T therapy in europe is by gel as it more closely mimics the bodys own cycles as u take it every day opposed to once every x weeks with injections.

But perhaps u meant that only supplementing with real testosterone will work?

I dont think thats the case either. I think its very dependant on why and what the cause for your low levels are to begin with. If u have a pituary problem replacing the signal (lh) substance for the testies to produce their own T again can certainly elevate testosterone levels. Then the issues was them not getting the signal to produce any for a variety of reasons.

No I thought I read a while back that only injections was legit so thanks for the correction. Maybe times have changed or I read something wrong.

My guess is though that is by prescription. I would doubt anything over the counter that makes the same claims.

[ridethecliche]

If you're dealing with abnormal levels of fatigue the first thing to test is your thyroid function not testosterone.

[weiwentg]

It looks like I started a firestorm.

I am well aware that your testosterone declines slightly as you age. I felt like mine was declining more than just slightly, but for a while I attributed it to stress. After a while, I decided to get it tested to see if it was low, and what my options were.

I resurrected this thread because I came across it, and I browsed, and I see that prolactinomas weren't discussed. Fortunately, they're detectable in men via blood test - prolactin is the lactating women hormone, and if you're male, yours should be very low. Mine was not. Prolactin does interfere with testosterone production. Hence, I decided to mention it as an additional possibility (and yes, they checked my thyroid as well).

I'm not looking for the fountain of youth. I was merely feeling a bit behind where I thought I should be. If I was below normal and there was a cause, I was hoping to address it. I'm not clearly below the normal (remember, I was at the low end of the normal reference range), but there's a clear cause.