Lance Armstrong to have his day in court

[bbeck66]

It looks like Lance Armstrong is going to have to answer to a federal court for his drug use and cheating.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/more-sports/lance-armstrong-handed-defeat-by-federal-judge/ar-AAmTLVW?OCID=ansmsnnews11

[Idris Icabod]

I wonder if he'll be in a sour mood this weekend at the 24 Hours in the Old Pueblo now!?

My wife claims she saw him coming out of Whole Foods this past weekend.

[MattTuck]

USPS paid ~32M for the sponsorship, and now is suing for 100M. :cool: That math is interesting...

As for suing Armstrong, isn't there a layer of corporation between USPS and Armstrong? He was the employee of a team, correct? Unless he had a direct contract with USPS, I'm not sure how he could breach the contract.

Anyway, don't they need to show damages? Seems they still got a lot of publicity out of the whole thing.

[Macadamia]

frankly I haven't used the US postal service since all this about him and the team came out

[Dave B]

USPS paid ~32M for the sponsorship, and now is suing for 100M. :cool: That math is interesting...

As for suing Armstrong, isn't there a layer of corporation between USPS and Armstrong? He was the employee of a team, correct? Unless he had a direct contract with USPS, I'm not sure how he could breach the contract.

Anyway, don't they need to show damages? Seems they still got a lot of publicity out of the whole thing.

I thought it was because he was a part of the Tailwinds group who had the contract.

I am a little annoyed that the big players (the money behind the team) are not a part of this. Lance took drugs, but he didn't get them, administer them, and he sure wasn't the only rider...just the biggest name.

[Elefantino]

Oh boy. Here we go...

[David Kirk]

I read this morning that the suit was originated by Floyd Landis and then picked up on by the feds. i don't understand this. I'm not arguing the point but just trying to understand - on what grounds can Floyd sue?

dave

[Dave B]

I read this morning that the suit was originated by Floyd Landis and then picked up on by the feds. i don't understand this. I'm not arguing the point but just trying to understand - on what grounds can Floyd sue?

dave

he is a whistle blower and his history with Postal/Lance allowed him some credibility to begin a case against Tailwinds et al.

[Mark McM]

USPS paid ~32M for the sponsorship, and now is suing for 100M. :cool: That math is interesting...

US Postal is seeking treble damages for gross breach of contract.

As for suing Armstrong, isn't there a layer of corporation between USPS and Armstrong? He was the employee of a team, correct? Unless he had a direct contract with USPS, I'm not sure how he could breach the contract.

He was not a simple employee of the team, he was a part owner of the team. Which means that not only did he take part in the team organized doping, but as a team owner he was part of the management/promotion of team doping.

Anyway, don't they need to show damages? Seems they still got a lot of publicity out of the whole thing.

US Postal didn't sponsor the team to promote themselves in the US (they have a government mandated monopoly in the US, afterall). The purpose of the sponsorship was to increase their business in Europe, where they faced a lot of competition. While people in the US may not have cared much about cycling and doping, European customers do (particularly in Germany). US Postal service claims that their damaged reputation due to doping cost them business in Europe.

[Mark McM]

I thought it was because he was a part of the Tailwinds group who had the contract.

I am a little annoyed that the big players (the money behind the team) are not a part of this. Lance took drugs, but he didn't get them, administer them, and he sure wasn't the only rider...just the biggest name.

Lance Armstrong is the biggest name so he gets the most press, but the lawsuit also names Johan Bruyneel, Thom Weisel, Bill Stapleton, Barton Knaggs, Tailwind Sports, and Capital Sports and Entertainment (all owners of the Discovery team) as defendants.

[Mark McM]

I read this morning that the suit was originated by Floyd Landis and then picked up on by the feds. i don't understand this. I'm not arguing the point but just trying to understand - on what grounds can Floyd sue?

Floyd Landis started the lawsuit under the False Claims Act (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_Claims_Act):


The law includes a qui tam provision that allows people who are not affiliated with the government, called "relators" under the law, to file actions on behalf of the government (informally called "whistleblowing" especially when the relator is employed by the organization accused in the suit). Persons filing under the Act stand to receive a portion (usually about 15–25 percent) of any recovered damages

[RonW87]

Mark,

Thanks for having the patience and taking the time to explain this stuff and lay out, you know, facts and law. Funny environment these days, where these things seem increasingly rare.

Ron

[ultraman6970]

This is weird, they tried this lawsuit years ago and nothing happened, they couldn't find anything indicating that the sponsorship did not work. Because after all USPS got their money back and brought more money to them, that is the idea of the sponsorship. Unless I'm missing something and this is due to something else totally new but from my poor english well... looks like is the same lawsuit than years ago or this is a new one?

[Mark McM]

This is weird, they tried this lawsuit years ago and nothing happened, they couldn't find anything indicating that the sponsorship did not work. Because after all USPS got their money back and brought more money to them, that is the idea of the sponsorship. Unless I'm missing something and this is due to something else totally new but from my poor english well... looks like is the same lawsuit than years ago or this is a new one?

I think you are referring to the FDA (Food And Drug Administration) criminal investigation of 2010-2012, which was led by FDA agent Jeff Novitsky. (Novitsky was also was involved in the BALCO doping scandal, which resulted in several criminal convictions.) The FDA criminal investigation was dropped with no charges.

The current case is a civil case being pursued in behalf of the US Postal Service, regarding breach of contract and damages.

[Force]

Interestingly, under the False Claims Act, Landis, as a whistleblower, can also get a piece of the recovery.

[Whoops - looks like someone already pointed this out.]

[David Kirk]

Interestingly, under the False Claims Act, Landis, as a whistleblower, can also get a piece of the recovery.

[Whoops - looks like someone already pointed this out.]

That's fascinating isn't it? Floyd stands to walk away with millions if his side wins.

Crime pays I guess eh


dave

[ultraman6970]

Forgot about the thing with landis. Looks like all the jerseys will end up at landis's home :D

[mcteague]

That's fascinating isn't it? Floyd stands to walk away with millions if his side wins.

Crime pays I guess eh


dave

Guess they REALLY should have offered him a job back when he asked, instead of kicking him to the curb.

Tim

[mg2ride]

This will very likely be settled/concluded in favor of USPS but at some rather trivial (by their standards) amount. Maybe $10M somehow split amongst everyone in the suit.

In the long run this is a rather important step for Lance's return as a accepted public figure, an American Hero and maybe even as a political candidate. A ruling against him ultimately means that he has paid his due.

The worse thing that could happen to Lance is for the current administration to step in on his behalf.

Mark my words, the day will come when 7 yellow jerseys hang in the Governor of Texas' house. :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana: :banana:

[benb]

I think the title is a little amusing as Lance has already had many days in court, an awful lot of people have taken him to court.

As was said before Lance was the only rider on USPS/Discovery/Astana who had a ownership share in Tailwind sports. I just read a book about this and already can't remember, but I think Tailwind was out by the Astana period.

Lance was involved in getting the company up and running and organizing things too so has special liability. All those Tailwind guys were totally aware of the organized doping thing.

The funniest thing I had read about all this that I don't think was ever discussed is there was some kind of VIP tailwind club.. you donated $100k+ to the team/company and you'd get to go kit up and ride with Lance and his buddies. (This started a long long time ago at the beginning of USPS IIRC.) It was apparently full of type A bankers and such who fashioned themselves as racers.

[54ny77]

Sure the Lance angle gets the headlines, but this is the more important item.

The string pullers are finally getting named and held accountable.

Lance Armstrong is the biggest name so he gets the most press, but the lawsuit also names Johan Bruyneel, Thom Weisel, Bill Stapleton, Barton Knaggs, Tailwind Sports, and Capital Sports and Entertainment (all owners of the Discovery team) as defendants.

[54ny77]

Landis should be sued by everyone who contributed to his fairness fund or whatever that was called.

Bring the $ back into the pockets of those who actually paid.

That's fascinating isn't it? Floyd stands to walk away with millions if his side wins.

Crime pays I guess eh


dave

[OtayBW]

The People's Court!!! :banana:

(It's a real court...the cases are real, you know.....)

[Aaron O]

I wish they were this persistent about delivering my damn mail.

[Tony T]

Landis should be sued by everyone who contributed to his fairness fund or whatever that was called.

Bring the $ back into the pockets of those who actually paid.

He was sued, case was dismissed and he was ordered to re-pay those who contributed to the Floyd Fairness Fund. http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sdut-cycling-floyd-landis-lawsuit-san-diego-restitution-2015aug26-story.html

[e-RICHIE]

The funniest thing I had read about all this that I don't think was ever discussed is there was some kind of VIP tailwind club.. you donated $100k+ to the team/company and you'd get to go kit up and ride with Lance and his buddies. (This started a long long time ago at the beginning of USPS IIRC.) It was apparently full of type A bankers and such who fashioned themselves as racers.

The Teflon Marionettists -
https://www.outsideonline.com/1824431/high-rollers
https://www.usacdf.org/staff-category/champions-club/

[Seramount]

Mark my words, the day will come when 7 yellow jerseys hang in the Governor of Texas' house.

hmm, compared to some recent residents of the gubnor's mansion, LA might be a major improvement...

[djg21]

I read this morning that the suit was originated by Floyd Landis and then picked up on by the feds. i don't understand this. I'm not arguing the point but just trying to understand - on what grounds can Floyd sue?

dave

That's how the False Claims Act works. A private party, (called a "relator" but think whistleblower) starts the suit by filing a complaint with a federal court under seal. At that point, the Department of Justice reviews the complaint and may elect to intervene and take over the suit. If it does, and it wins, the relator gets a big bounty. If DOJ refuses to intervene, the relator can elect to proceed with the litigation, in which case he/she gets a bigger bounty if he/she ultimately prevails. Either way, the Government remains a party in interest and gets a lion's share of any judgment.

This a a civil war era statue that is intended to curb fraudulent claims on the government.

[bobswire]

Not a good time for the Gov. to be going after him, IMO. After the Defendants In Oregon Wildlife Refuge Occupation were found not guilty. I guess it may depend on where the trial takes place but if I were a betting man I bet no one comes out looking good. Including the prosecution,defendant, Landis and ends up not guilty or hung jury.

[Tony T]

Well, one thing is certain, it will be very easy to seat a jury that never watched or watches the TDF or any cycling for that mater :)

[bobswire]

Well, one thing is certain, it will be very easy to seat a jury that never watched or watches the TDF or any cycling for that mater :)

Which favors Armstrong,cyclist are the ones who feel somehow cheated even though that period was some of the most exciting Tours of our lifetime.

[gemship]

This will very likely be settled/concluded in favor of USPS but at some rather trivial (by their standards) amount. Maybe $10M somehow split amongst everyone in the suit.

In the long run this is a rather important step for Lance's return as a accepted public figure, an American Hero and maybe even as a political candidate. A ruling against him ultimately means that he has paid his due.

The worse thing that could happen to Lance is for the current administration to step in on his behalf.

Mark my words, the day will come when 7 yellow jerseys hang in the Governor of Texas' house. :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana: :banana:

Ok I'm more stupid about this than sarcastic. Are you saying that Lance could one day be the governor of Texas?

[bobswire]

Ok I'm more stupid about this than sarcastic. Are you saying that Lance could one day be the governor of Texas?

Or Trump President of the USoA. Does this answer your question? This is a fun thread but I must get out for a ride to take advantage of the weather. :)

[gemship]

Not a good time for the Gov. to be going after him, IMO. After the Defendants In Oregon Wildlife Refuge Occupation were found not guilty. I guess it may depend on where the trial takes place but if I were a betting man I bet no one comes out looking good. Including the prosecution,defendant, Landis and ends up not guilty or hung jury.

You're probably right. I like the earlier post by someone stating they never use the Postal Service after all this came about. Well I went to the post office today and happily did business with them. Once a year I send my written tax returns certified mail to both the State and Federal govt's. I have to say the service is good and affordable although not that cheap but worth it. My mom is a letter carrier and she's hanging in there a few more years till she turns 65. In these regards I root for the post office but honestly they are hurting.

[gemship]

Or Trump President of the USoA. Does this answer your question? This is a fun thread but I must get out for a ride to take advantage of the weather. :)

I don't blame you, enjoy the ride. I wish New England could be more like where you are this time of year. It is a fun thread, Cheers.

[Tony T]

Ok I'm more stupid about this than sarcastic. Are you saying that Lance could one day be the governor of Texas?

Not sure if the Texas constitution prevents a convicted felon (if LA loses) from running for governor, but if it does he can always run for Mayor of DC ;)

[mcteague]

Which favors Armstrong,cyclist are the ones who feel somehow cheated even though that period was some of the most exciting Tours of our lifetime.

The most exciting Tours I recall both involved LeMond. His first win while battling Hinault and the 8 second win against Fignon.

Tim

[Black Dog]

Landis should be sued by everyone who contributed to his fairness fund or whatever that was called.

Bring the $ back into the pockets of those who actually paid.

I think that if Floyd gets some $ in a settlement and it is possible to payback people he should or he should, at least, donate the equivalent amount of money to a worthy charity to make some amends. I have no beef with Floyd but I think that this would be the right thing to do given the circumstances.

[gemship]

Not sure if the Texas constitution prevents a convicted felon (if LA loses) from running for governor, but if it does he can always run for Mayor of DC ;)

Ok so I am not trying to shut this thread down but after this past year's presidency with cabinet picks included I will say anything is possible.

[Tony T]

I think that if Floyd gets some $ in a settlement and it is possible to payback people he should or he should, at least, donate the equivalent amount of money to a worthy charity to make some amends. I have no beef with Floyd but I think that this would be the right thing to do given the circumstances.

FL has been ordered to pay back the contributors to the FFF.
The payback is on a sliding scale based on post-tax income (5% under $50,000, 15 % between $50,000 and $100,000, 50% over $200,000).

[benb]

The Teflon Marionettists -
https://www.outsideonline.com/1824431/high-rollers
https://www.usacdf.org/staff-category/champions-club/

Actually there was another really really interesting link in the book I forgot to mention before.

Not only was Lance given a financial in, there was a weird thing going on where Tailwind riders automatically had some of their savings invested with Weisel, and he was even getting them in on insider/pre-IPO shenanigans, Lance of course seemingly being the most favored rider in that scheme.

[e-RICHIE]

Actually there was another really really interesting link in the book I forgot to mention before.

Not only was Lance given a financial in, there was a weird thing going on where Tailwind riders automatically had some of their savings invested with Weisel, and he was even getting them in on insider/pre-IPO shenanigans, Lance of course seemingly being the most favored rider in that scheme.

His "in" came because they ran out of cabbage to use for his USPS salary.

[velomateo]

I never donated to the Landis fund, but I did incur some expense on his account.
When Floyd was making his come back, after his scandal/suspension. His first race was in the Phoenix area. Through a friend of my brother-in-law, Floyd and his manager were going to stay the night at my sister's home in Scottsdale. I went out and purchased his book and FedEx'ed it to my sister, to have Floyd autograph it for me. Cost me about $30.
He signs my book, then admits to doping, in a post-race press conference. I still have that damn book. I don't think it's worth the paper it's printed on.

[Tony T]

Positively False : The Real Story of How I Won the Tour de France by Floyd Landis
AUTOGRAPHED
$3.79 on ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/AUTOGRAPHED-POSITIVELY-FALSE-BY-FLOYD-LANDIS-SIGNED-HARDCOVER-DUST-JACKET-/272546067009?hash=item3f7502f241:g:0qcAAOSwImRYaYE k

[gemship]

I never donated to the Landis fund, but I did incur some expense on his account.
When Floyd was making his come back, after his scandal/suspension. His first race was in the Phoenix area. Through a friend of my brother-in-law, Floyd and his manager were going to stay the night at my sister's home in Scottsdale. I went out and purchased his book and FedEx'ed it to my sister, to have Floyd autograph it for me. Cost me about $30.
He signs my book, then admits to doping, in a post-race press conference. I still have that damn book. I don't think it's worth the paper it's printed on.

I wish I could wait a day or two or week to quote and repost your comment because you made me laugh. However I am forgetful. This story is very funny and so true as the book is not worth the lint of our underoos. :p

[velomateo]

Positively False : The Real Story of How I Won the Tour de France by Floyd Landis
AUTOGRAPHED
$3.79 on ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/AUTOGRAPHED-POSITIVELY-FALSE-BY-FLOYD-LANDIS-SIGNED-HARDCOVER-DUST-JACKET-/272546067009?hash=item3f7502f241:g:0qcAAOSwImRYaYE k

Whoa. Maybe I could buy that and make bookends out of them

[Idris Icabod]

I never donated to the Landis fund, but I did incur some expense on his account.
When Floyd was making his come back, after his scandal/suspension. His first race was in the Phoenix area. Through a friend of my brother-in-law, Floyd and his manager were going to stay the night at my sister's home in Scottsdale. I went out and purchased his book and FedEx'ed it to my sister, to have Floyd autograph it for me. Cost me about $30.
He signs my book, then admits to doping, in a post-race press conference. I still have that damn book. I don't think it's worth the paper it's printed on.

It could be worse. My buddy in Colorado paid a fairly tidy sum for Tommy D's collegiate jersey or what not thinking he was going to be the next Lance.

[velomateo]

It could be worse. My buddy in Colorado paid a fairly tidy sum for Tommy D's collegiate jersey or what not thinking he was going to be the next Lance.

He kinda is...

[mg2ride]

Ok I'm more stupid about this than sarcastic. Are you saying that Lance could one day be the governor of Texas?

In his hay day there was talk that Lance would end up having a political career and starting as the Governor of Texas was often mentioned.

It seemed a viable option for him at the time. Who knows now.

[colker]

This will very likely be settled/concluded in favor of USPS but at some rather trivial (by their standards) amount. Maybe $10M somehow split amongst everyone in the suit.

In the long run this is a rather important step for Lance's return as a accepted public figure, an American Hero and maybe even as a political candidate. A ruling against him ultimately means that he has paid his due.

The worse thing that could happen to Lance is for the current administration to step in on his behalf.

Mark my words, the day will come when 7 yellow jerseys hang in the Governor of Texas' house. :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana: :banana:

Bingo.

[Mark McM]

In his hay day there was talk that Lance would end up having a political career and starting as the Governor of Texas was often mentioned.

It seemed a viable option for him at the time. Who knows now.

Well, Arnold Schwarzenegger was elected Governor of California after admitting steroid use for the sport of bodybuilding ...

[Mark McM]

In his hay day there was talk that Lance would end up having a political career and starting as the Governor of Texas was often mentioned.

It seemed a viable option for him at the time. Who knows now.

Well, Arnold Schwarzenegger was elected Governor of California after admitting Performance Enhancing Drug usage (steroids) for the sport of bodybuilding ...

[zennmotion]

Lance or Rick Perry in a primary, would be a tough decision for me.:eek:

[93legendti]

Those damages are a tricky concept...still need proof of damages as an element of a case, near as I can tell:


"Given the scope of conduct that can give rise to FCA liability, it is not surprising that there is no single rule for calculating damages under the Act. The damages must be determined based on the facts of the particular case at issue and identifying and valuing damages can be a murky task. While there is no hard and fast rule, the fundamental guiding principle in calculating damages is to make the government whole for any damages incurred “because of” a violation of the Act. See United States ex rel. Marcus v. Hess, 317 U.S. 537, 551-52 (1943); United States ex rel. Harrison v. Westinghouse Savannah River Co., 352 F.3d 908, 922-23 (4th Cir. 2003); United States ex rel. Longhi v. Lithium PowerTechnologies, 530 F. Supp. 2d 888, 890-91 (S.D. Tex 2008). See also S. Rep. No. 614, 96th Cong., 2d Sess. at 4."


"Comment: An argument that damages and penalties are excessive under the Excessive Fines Clause of the Eighth Amendment may be available if penalties are grossly disproportionate to the wrong. See United States v. Rogan, 517 F.3d 449 (7th Cir. 2008); United States v. Mackby, 339 F.2d 1013 (9th Cir. 2003)."


https://www.morganlewis.com/pubs/bna_calculatingdamagesunderfalseclaimsact_may2013. pdf

[93legendti]

Last time we beat this dead horse many here conceded that USPS' sales increased during the period in question


I would defend this case arguing 1) there are no damages and 2) one who benefits from alleged fraud and then seeks damages not only has unclean hands, but is double dipping and itself trying to defraud the Court...


Lance can still be the devil and not liable under the Act.

[Tony T]

Well, Arnold Schwarzenegger was elected Governor of California after admitting Performance Enhancing Drug usage (steroids) for the sport of bodybuilding ...

Marion Barry was elected Mayor of Washington DC after a felony drug conviction

[benb]

Well, Arnold Schwarzenegger was elected Governor of California after admitting Performance Enhancing Drug usage (steroids) for the sport of bodybuilding ...

True but there were some differences.. Arnold wasn't breaking the rules of body building at the time. (heck they are definitely still not enforcing PED rules now even if they have them, at least in Mr. Olympia or whatever the top level contest he won was.)

For much of Arnold's career it wasn't even illegal to have those drugs, steroids weren't controlled till 1990, well after his bodybuilding was over. He may have broken the law to get in shape for some of his movies in the 90s and later though.

He also never got caught running a program to distribute the drugs to other athletes.

AFAICT Lance barely graduated from HS requiring someone to pull strings as he had missed too much school to graduate. Not sure that matters to be Governor of Texas but at least politicians we laughed at like Rick Perry (or Arnold) graduated from College.

[Tony T]

Maybe he can be named chairman of the President's Council on Fitness, Sports, and Nutrition ;)

[Keith A]

Okay guys, we are already talking about a volatile subject, so let's not mix politics in here too.
:help:

[colker]

Last time we beat this dead horse many here conceded that USPS' sales increased during the period in question


I would defend this case arguing 1) there are no damages and 2) one who benefits from alleged fraud and then seeks damages not only has unclean hands, but is double dipping and itself trying to defraud the Court...


Lance can still be the devil and not liable under the Act.

Exactly.

[Seramount]

True but there were some differences.. Arnold wasn't breaking the rules of body building at the time. (heck they are definitely still not enforcing PED rules now even if they have them, at least in Mr. Olympia or whatever the top level contest he won was.)

For much of Arnold's career it wasn't even illegal to have those drugs, steroids weren't controlled till 1990, well after his bodybuilding was over. He may have broken the law to get in shape for some of his movies in the 90s and later though.

He also never got caught running a program to distribute the drugs to other athletes.

AFAICT Lance barely graduated from HS requiring someone to pull strings as he had missed too much school to graduate. Not sure that matters to be Governor of Texas but at least politicians we laughed at like Rick Perry (or Arnold) graduated from College.


excellent point regarding Arnold's use of substances that were not banned or illegal at the time.

otoh, Rick Perry did receive a 'D' in a class titled 'Meats'...seriously.

[bobswire]

Maybe he can be named chairman of the President's Council on Fitness, Sports, and Nutrition ;)

At least he is more than anyone else Trump chose for his cabinet. I think it was Kennedy who started the first fitness council? Keith don't be so quick to pull the trigger,this case goes hand and hand with politics via the Government. We can handle it.

[djg21]

Maybe he can be named chairman of the President's Council on Fitness, Sports, and Nutrition ;)

Chris Christie has dibs.

[Tony T]

I think it was Kennedy who started the first fitness council?

What it's been called has changed over the years (as recent as the last administration), but it was first started in 1956 as The President's Council on Youth Fitness. (Kennedy changed the council's name to President's Council on Physical Fitness to reflect its role to serve all Americans)

[Seramount]

Chris Christie has dibs.

well, that post resulted in the wasting of some nice whiskey...

[djg21]

well, that post resulted in the wasting of some nice whiskey...

So he is good for something? Bottoms up!

[adub]

When will people accept the fact that all professional athletes (that consistently win) have, or do take PED's.

[Tony T]

All except one ;)

[adub]

All except one ;)

PED, TUE..

Tomato Potato

[PQJ]

When will people accept the fact that all professional athletes (that consistently win) have, or do take PED's.


Federer?

[mg2ride]

Federer?

It is presumptuous to declare it as a "Fact" like adub did, but I would not bet that athletes like Federer, the Williams sisters or even Tiger never took any PEDs. I would even goes as far to say odds are they have.

OTOH, I don't really care if they did. Everything an athlete at that level does is about Performance Enhancing.

[PQJ]

It is presumptuous to declare it as a "Fact" like adub did, but I would not bet that athletes like Federer, the Williams sisters or even Tiger never took any PEDs. I would even goes as far to say odds are they have.

OTOH, I don't really care if they did. Everything an athlete at that level does is about Performance Enhancing.

Yeah, we will never know. But if there is one uber athlete who I could conceivably believe is clean, Federer is the guy.

[54ny77]

Fronch fries, the PED of choice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhW7rpFhr2k

;)

Federer?

[Black Dog]

Yeah, we will never know. But if there is one uber athlete who I could conceivably believe is clean, Federer is the guy.

People would say the same thing about many past champs that were subsequently busted for PEDs. There is no good argument that assures an athlete is or was clean. The only way that we can be sure about a particular PED is if the competed before that PED existed. Some riders we can have more certainty of but that is only if they are not champs and the argument is that they are getting beaten by cheaters...but still not proof. Professional (business) sports = professional (business) entertainment. We should stop expecting it to be "real".

[benb]

I thought Tiger Woods had said he did.