Thinking of switching from DA to Record...

[Scott]

I have an '02 Concours with 9 speed DA and Mavic K SLs. I'm thinking of switching to Record. A friend is trying to get me to go with the DA 10. Says performance is better and I won't have to buy a new set of wheels. I really don't like the new DA crankset but have read that it is awesome performance wise. Couple of questions... is Record a better performer and is there a way to convert my K's to accept campy?

Also, I found a new '04 record group for $1249 (no HS, Hubs, seatpost)... good deal, right? If you buy online, where is a good place to get a good deal on Record?

Thanks.

[dbrk]

Why not use a Campagnolo or TA or some other crankset you like? There are others that will shift that DA 10 just fine if that's what you like. Personally, I can't wrap myself around that DA 10 crankset either but I'm not so keen on any 130or135bcd (so the point's sorta' moot for me).

Oh, and you can use the Other Guy's cassette too. It's not a big deal to adjust. On 10spd Shimano spacing is 3.95 mm and Campagnolo is 4.12 mm. In 9 the cassette spacing is 4.34 mm for Shimano and 4.55 mm for Campagnolo. This is just a minor, very, very minor adjustment. Works perfect for me.

Go Mutt!! Mix and match!! Defy industry standards!! Resist being co-opted by the Corporate Machine any more than you must!! Fie on them, I say! Fie!
Make what they say does not work work perfectly.

dbrk

[EdK]

You can buy a replacement hub body from Mavic to convert your Sls to Campy for <$50.

Campy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Johny]

"Thinking of switching from DA to Record..."
Good idea! :D

You may consider '04 Chorus, which is vey close to '03 Record (both '03 and '04 Record have more titanium and aluminium small parts than '04 Chorus). It is $300 less. Of course, if you like to see "Record" printed all over your components, go with Record.

I also have difficulties to appreciate "beauty" of the new DA crankets even though some people say it looks better in person (sorry, I tried very hard but failed...). Stiffeness of the new DA crankset and BB, as pointed out many times by experts here, is most likely over-rated, although some DA users swear by it...

Performance wise, am I good enough to see the differences b/w DA and Record? No. Lance probably can win his sixth TdF by using Shimano 105. After all, most of us are just yuppies who like to use "the best" (translated into "the most expensive"). :D

[Larry O]

I agree that the '04 Chorus group is worth considering. I have it on my '03 Concours and have been very happy with it. It features carbon levers and rear derailleur, and you can get it with carbon cranks and seatpost (though I opted not to get either). Honestly don't know how the shifting performance compares to DA 10, but it is much better than my older Daytona/Centaur 10 in shifting and braking.

[Andreu]

... is Record a better performer and is there a way to convert my K's to accept campy? .
I have never used Shimano DA but the anecdotal advice of many riders who I know who use say it is as good as Campy (i.e. nice positive feel, reliability etc). So far as performance goes there is probably not much in it. The only thing I don't like is the "messy" wires that come out of the brake hoods....campy has a much "cleaner" look. With $ versus Euro ...Campy is probably a bad buy right now?
Oh yeah ...I have only ever had Italian bikes and I would never put Shimano on them. I know.... I Know ! Pure aesthetic BS.
A

[Kevin]

Scott,

The beauty of Campy can't be beat. Performance between Campy and DA is about the same. You got a pretty good price on the Record Groupo. Though Colorado Cyclist has your reduced Groupo for $1189.

Kevin

[Climb01742]

seeking quantifiable differences between shimano and campy is a neverending she said, he said. both are great. i think its more a personality quiz than anything. my take is--DA is more functionality, campy more artistry. so i vote for DA. when i'm riding, i can't see the crank, just feel it. :rolleyes:

[Speedi Pig]

I've got my new Legend on order, and I'm getting Campy Chorus with carbon (couldn't justify the extra $$$ for Record...also didn't want to get dropped on my favorite rides while riding the best groupo out there :D ).

Right now, I'm riding DA/Ultegra 9 and was gonna go DA 10 until I heard that Campy is rebuildable while Shimano is not...crash and mess up your brake levers and you'll have to fork over $200 or so for new Shimano, but your LBS can get parts for and rebuild your Campy.

I've also heard the expression "Campy wears in while Shimano wears out."

Best of luck with whatever you decide.

[dirtdigger88]

CHANGE TO CAMPY BECAUSE YOU WANT TO, NOT BECAUSE IT IS BETTER. IT IS NOT BETTER, IT IS DIFFERENT. You can debate til the cows come home, but Campy is not better than DA, DA is not better than Campy, they are just different.

Jason

[Climb01742]

your experience may vary. my campy record has worn far faster than my DA stuff. go figure. chocolate or vanilla?

[dbrk]

I'm going to chime in once more to say that I use Shimano and Campagnolo from Ultegra and DA to Centaur, Chorus, and Record. The only performance difference I can detect is in the feel of shifters but not precisely in the function; I mean, they all work flawlessly and the truth is that most of us don't need to shift as fast or as absolutely as a racer looking for the most subtle edge. That said, I like DA and Chorus best but only when it is a deal. Actually, I've grown philosophical rather than ideological. Upon a time I complained that the Shimano two lever movement (vs. the "superior" Campag mouse button/inside lever) would occasionally cause me to pinch my fingers (small hands). Well, last year's DA was being blown out and I went for the bargain. Now I am quite content to use Shimano. Both companies have made things proprietary as far as they can attempting to compel us to use their whole groups. This, of course, infuriates me and I spend a fair bit of time figuring out how to beat these "rules" and mix and match and hence save money. So, I repeat, there is no need, NONE, to worry about which cassettes you use (9 with 9, 10 with 10), just match shifters with company ders and then crankw/bb, the rest I would simply economize. There is no way in a million years I would go to the trouble of swapping out hub bodies, etc. Just don't bother when you can very easily adjust the b screw a tiny bit. I like stuff that works and is the best deal but this "better" stuff is not worth the breath spent. I find it much more satisfying figuring out how to defeat the industry's insistence that I do it their way.

dbrk

[woolly]

Go with the one that has the best ergonomics for you, both in the shape/feel of the hoods, plus the shifting. Most people tend to do most of their riding on the hoods, and there is a clear difference in shape between the Campy and Shimano stuff. This is one of the main bike/rider contact points, and IMHO makes MUCH more difference than a .01% difference in crankarm stiffness, 5 grams difference in hub weight, etc.

You're dealing with the top groups from either company - both will deliver excellent performance and durability. Go with the one that fits best.

[dirtdigger88]

Well said Woolly,

I won't say I have tons of miles of campy, but I have my share, and I just like Shimano better. The hoods fit me better. I have about 12k on my Ultegra with not one problem. Rebuildible after a crash? I have been riding some form of rapid fire from Shimano for 12 years now, wanna know how many parts I have broken in a crash. NONE!! Granted in the last 3, I have only laid my road bike down two times, not once did I break anything.
As far as the cables looking messy, get Nokion cables and you can run DA and hide the cables like campy. Shimano will never change the two cable look, that is what makes them stand out from campy in the peleton. I think Campy makes some cool stuff, I just like Shimano better. I like to ride with my middle finger on the two shift levers on my DA, up and down shifts are a flick of my finger away. Ride what you want, not what you think will impress others. I am more impressed by strong legs and powerful lungs and heart, than with what someone is riding. how about you

Jason

[Russ]

....when i'm riding, i can't see the crank, just feel it.

I have heard a number of times that the new 04 Record and Chorus carbon cranksets are one of the stiffest.... So, what is really the answer? Are they really stiffer than Shimano DA '04? Have any of you ridden both.

In terms of components, I would agree with DBRK on this one, MIX UP and save! I would not waste my time and money on anything but King headsets, and I would put a Chorus carbon crankset instead of a Record, if money is an issue.... Good luck!

[SBash]

I have worked on bikes for years and tried just about everything, including combinations. dbrk is correct that matching the 9 speed cassette/derailleur with either campy or shimano shifters will work with some fine tuning and for me that is just fine. Now if i'm building a bike for someone i usually try to keep the components ( group ) the same unless they specify differently. That being said of all the groups that i have worked with, ridden, and most reliable, i personally prefer Chorus 8 speed. I love how the shifting is so direct, chain is thicker and strong, and when i shift i know i have the gear and it feels solid. Too me 10 speed in the back is a bit much and feel like i have to shift for no reason to accomplish the same thing.

SB

[Bill Bove]

IS TOO BETTER!! And my big brother will beat up anybody who says otherwise. :argue:

[vaxn8r]

I don't know about crank stiffness, but I will say that as good as Campy is (and it is) The DA 10 front shifting is the best/quickest/most automatic I have ever ridden. How important it that? For the incremental improvement, not really important, but it sure is cool.

[zap]

Crank stiffness. Recent VeloNews test have shown that DA10 is stiffer than '04 Record carbon. However, they only tested the drive crank. It appears they never re-torqued the crank bolts for the conventional square bb units either. Past tests have shown that stiffness of non drive arms can vary significantly. Mavic cranks are very stiff on the drive side but the left arm is a noodle according to test figures I've seen.

I tested Magic Motorcycle cranks for a year. A design Shimano DA 10 now largely copies. MM cranks are super stiff according to old static tests. In an all out sprint from a standing start I noticed a difference (compared to '95 DA) but only in the first few revolutions. I sold the MM cranks because I did not like the external BB and the resulting high Q factor.

IMHO crank stiffness is not that important when comparing DA to Record. Purchase what works/appeals to you. Personally I like Record.

Note that Campy prices have just gone up again!!!!

[dbrk]

Today I went looking for some parts and indeed prices have risen again. My response is to bail. I've decided to pull parts off bikes already built, use those parts, and sell the frames. This is ridiculous. Excel is showing something in the neighborhood of $400 for shifters. NO WAY.

I'll sell bikes before I pay these prices. To heck with our more or less affordable sport. A good value will look better and better as these prices go through the roof.

dbrk

[Jeff N.]

I have bikes equipped with both Campy Record and DA-10. I find the hoods of DA to be superior to Campy. With the Campy hoods, those little stubby horns are barely able to keep my hands from slipping off the front sometimes. And the exposed derailleur cable of DA allow for a gear indicator. I like being able to tell what gear range I'm in just by a quick glance down. With Campy, the only way you can have something comparable is to install Ergobrain. Ever try installing Ergobrain with its endless wires? Why hasn't Campy embraced wireless technology? The shifting action of the new DA-10 shifters is like a switchblade knife: lightening fast. The new crank system is simply the best out there. Anyway....its up to you. Jeff N.

[zap]

$400 !!!

I'm seeing $300 or less for Record '04 b/shifters. Still expensive but you can get Veloce 10spd for $130.

Gear indicators. What are those??? :rolleyes:

I have to agree with Jeff that DA brake hoods are better.

[Jeff N.]

Dura Ace comes with an in-line gear indicator that is integrated into the rear derailleur cable housing that comes off the right brake/shift lever. It is a simple device that tells you what gear range you are in, with respect to the rear cogs. I find it to be a big help. It is a simple thing, but one that further distinguishes DA from Record. Jeff N.

[zap]

I was just kidding.

My DuraAce gear indicator is still sitting in a box. I might sell it on ebay.

My gear indicators are sensory.

[Ahneida Ride]

Love campy ... But the hoods are designed for 6 year olds.

Impossilbe to get a grip on them. They stink !!!!! STINK !!!!!! :no:

[Andreu]

Actually, thinking about it. The best pound for pound groupset I have ever had was Shimano Ultegra on a cyclocross bike (with bar-shifters). It was bomb proof and worked a dream. But I still would n't let it near any of my Italian frames.
A

[JackL]

I had a little trouble shifting my Shimano 9-speed cassette with Campy shifters until I learned this trick from Sheldon Brown: replace one of the original cassette cog spacers (from the middle of the cluster) with a thicker 7-8 speed spacer. This spreads the cluster just enough to approximate Campy spacing, and has eliminated my missed shifts. Bravo to Sheldon for this elegant solution!

That said, I mix & match my components, but my hands like the shape of Campy hoods, and I could never get used to sideways-moving brake levers. So Campy resides on my handlebars, and, by default, at the rear derailleur position. Cranksets are either D/A (appears better design & construction than Campy aluminum) or TA Zephyr (110 bcd and very handsome).

JackL

[Litespeeder]

DA10 changes everything. If you have limited your choice between DA9 and Record then I would say that you are not going to get any kind of performance boost either way. Between the two, I prefer DA9 because it uses ti instead of carbon. But DA10 is really in a league of its own. The new DA10 crank is extremely light, ultra stiff and the outboard bearings really do add to the drive train stiffness in a way that DA9 or Record cranks cannot imitate. Another option may be to add the DA10 crank to your existing DA9 setup. They are supposed to be compatible, and IMO the most significant improvement with DA10 is the new crank. I actually really like how the new crank looks but aesthetics cannot be argued.

:argue:

[Marron]

I dont' have any direct experience with the 10sp DA, but I do use both the 9 speed, Ultegra (the best deal) and Record. The best analogy for the difference I ever heard is that Japan is traditionaly a culture of wood and paper and Italian technology is about metal. You can feel that in the action of the shifters; Shimano is softer with less distinct clicks, Campy is like ****ing an old Ferrari when the gearbox is still cold, it takes some force and there is a distinct notchiness to the action.

Aside from that they're both completely functional and I switch back and forth with no problem and little thought.