Endpoint Hunter/Gatherer

[Stevemikesteve]

Pretty solid support of this from some devoted Elephant NFE folks from what I can tell lurking another forum. Intel seems limited, no pics yet but sounds like first round of orders will be done in next couple months or so. Could be worth a look if you're in the market. Looks like they do some nice work and I love this style frame, no affiliation

http://rideendpoint.com/products/fbm-x-endpoint-hunter-gatherer

[Mr. Squirrel]

dear mr. steve mike or steve,
they indeed appear interesting. my list of bikes to hunt for wheels has grown by one. time to gather nuts...and that is not nuts! Nuk nuk nuk!

mr. squirrel

[marciero]

Pretty solid support of this from some devoted Elephant NFE folks from what I can tell lurking another forum. Intel seems limited, no pics yet but sounds like first round of orders will be done in next couple months or so. Could be worth a look if you're in the market. Looks like they do some nice work and I love this style frame, no affiliation

http://rideendpoint.com/products/fbm-x-endpoint-hunter-gatherer

Yup. Similar tubing (both TT 28.6/8-5-8 top tubes), disc, low trail, all manner of fittings. A bit cheaper at $1000 ff. and less wait- NFE currently at 8+ months. Pre-order ended Monday for this batch. There were some pictures of the first prototype on the radavist i think.

[donevwil]

Has anyone laid hands or eyes on one of these Endpoint Hunter Gatherers? Any input on how it compares to an Elephant NFE (aesthetics, TA, slightly higher BB and trail)? How about feedback on Ride Endpoint bikes themselves?

[R3awak3n]

I like what Endpoint is doing. They came out with a concept, took preorders, got the bikes made and have now shipped a bunch to their clients.

Nicely run operation. I have talked to Braden via email a few times (thought about buying a coffee grinder), nice guy, very responsive.

The Hunter/Gatherer seems awesome and if I did not have an elephant I would have most likely had preordered one. Not sure how it compares to the elephant and I do like the way the elephant looks better (at least the old fork version) but I like the colors of the hunter/gatherer and I like the updates (TA).

Can't wait to hear opinions of people that have receive theirs.


This is the first built one, looks pretty good to me. That clear purple is cool

https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/e35/18812223_459697834377055_5668605211443200000_n.jpg

[eBAUMANN]

that is a VERY cool frame, love the design and that FBM is making them.
i am tempted to snag one myself.

[donevwil]

that is a VERY cool frame, love the design and that FBM is making them.
i am tempted to snag one myself.

Didn't you at one point own an Endpoint? If so, what was your opinion on quality and execution?

[dave thompson]

Elephant, which is local to me, seems to be a hard company to deal with, curt short answers, not terribly interested in their (potential) customers. They turned me off a couple of years ago when I contacted and talked to them several times about a frame. Not bad guys, just no vibe for me.

[eBAUMANN]

Didn't you at one point own an Endpoint? If so, what was your opinion on quality and execution?

nope, i did not, but i am familiar with FBM's work, would not hesitate to buy anything that came out of their shop.

[CiclistiCliff]

Endpoint and FBM produce awesome frames. My Coffee Grinder is one of those frames that disappear under you.

Geometry is spot on and quality is fantastic.

[donevwil]

Non-aesthetic, price, lead-time differences as I see it are:

- 5mm higher BB
- 9mm taller AtC
- TA vs QR
- DT vs TT derailleur cable routing

Are any of these truly significant?

[eBAUMANN]

Non-aesthetic, price, lead-time differences as I see it are:

- 5mm higher BB
- 9mm taller AtC
- TA vs QR
- DT vs TT derailleur cable routing

Are any of these truly significant?

Yes.

- The higher BB is a little odd to me...as this frame is clearly designed more for dirt road touring type stuff...I guess maybe they think some people will take it on trails too? Need for more ground clearance? I would have probably spec'd it with 70mm drop, but hey, splitting hairs a bit there, its 5mm.

- The A-C is not a big deal...unless you wanted to swap in another fork.

- TA is a big selling point for me here, because every other disc bike i have (4 of em) is 15mm/142x12 TA at this point, nice to be able to swap around wheels.

- Routing on the DT is better if you want to use "gas tank" and/or "jerry can" style frame bags on the top tube...which I would highly recommend if you ever want to do any bikepacking with the thing.

So yes, overall, I would say these differences are significant.

Significant enough that I have no interest in owning a NFE (because its QR) and am very seriously considering grabbing one of these (because it isnt).

[R3awak3n]

I like the TT cable routing on my NFE but I have to say, if I had a choice I would go DT.

TA is great but I am sure some will say that increasing stiffness in the fork will rob from the flex of the blades, yada yada. Maybe? maybe not?

I wish the hunter had direct mount brakes, because it seems everyone is ditching post mount and its a "new frame".

[ptourkin]

One of our forum members has already built one up.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BVDKfCtAUJF/?taken-by=flynnsaw

[donevwil]

Yes.

- The higher BB is a little odd to me...as this frame is clearly designed more for dirt road touring type stuff...I guess maybe they think some people will take it on trails too? Need for more ground clearance? I would have probably spec'd it with 70mm drop, but hey, splitting hairs a bit there, its 5mm.

- The A-C is not a big deal...unless you wanted to swap in another fork.

- TA is a big selling point for me here, because every other disc bike i have (4 of em) is 15mm/142x12 TA at this point, nice to be able to swap around wheels.

- Routing on the DT is better if you want to use "gas tank" and/or "jerry can" style frame bags on the top tube...which I would highly recommend if you ever want to do any bikepacking with the thing.
So yes, overall, I would say these differences are significant.

Significant enough that I have no interest in owning a NFE (because its QR) and am very seriously considering grabbing one of these (because it isnt).

Great feedback, thanks.

The BB height is puzzling to me as well and I ride 180 cranks. It is my primary negative with this machine, but as you mention 5mm is splitting hairs.

I'm new to discs and you bring up a good point, why build a wheelset (or two) that most likely won't be compatible with any other bike I ultimately buy? I assume at this time 15mm is still the choice up front (they offer both a 12mm and 15mm, as well as QR, fork)?

[R3awak3n]

for road, I think 12 is the choice up front.

[donevwil]

for road, I think 12 is the choice up front.

My initial thinking as well, but 15mm opens up a slew of MTB hubs and wheels in 650b.

[eBAUMANN]

for road, I think 12 is the choice up front.

12mm should have never happened.

There is no good reason for it.
And dont tell me "because its lighter."
Thats not a good reason.

It's a ploy by the industry to get everyone to buy new sh*t they dont need.

Ill never surrender.

vive le 15mm!

[R3awak3n]

I agree that is DUMB to have another standard. Just dumb. That said, a road bike does not need a 15mm, but still, so dumb to just create a new thing just for the sake of selling more crap.

[donevwil]

There is also the fact that Endpoint (FBM) appear to use Paragon fork ends and the 12mm is much more attractive on a road fork (i.e. smaller) than the 15mm. Again, however, not a decision driver for me.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_Zdio9WsAEMFKL.jpg

[eBAUMANN]

I agree that is DUMB to have another standard. Just dumb. That said, a road bike does not need a 15mm, but still, so dumb to just create a new thing just for the sake of selling more crap.

MTB does not NEED 15...

(insert John Tomac photo here)

ROAD bikes do not NEED TA, period.

NEED is an illusion, maaaaaannn.

15 existed before cx/road moved to disc and guess what? it works fine!
...there is no good reason it should not be used on a road bike.

Again, weight is not a good reason :p

[R3awak3n]

MTB does not NEED 15...

(insert John Tomac photo here)

ROAD bikes do not NEED TA, period.

NEED is an illusion, maaaaaannn.

15 existed before cx/road moved to disc and guess what? it works fine!
...there is no good reason it should not be used on a road bike.

Again, weight is not a good reason :p

road bikes don't need disc brakes. oh boy here we go again.

that said TA on a road bike to me is nice, not because of stiffness (because lets be honest, QR on a carbon fork is plenty stiff and totally fine) but it is nice to have the caliper be in a similar spot when putting a wheel back on. A bit harder with QR.

And you are right, MTB don't need 15mm either, maybe DH does.

But yeah, weight is a stupid stupid reason. Want to save weight, don't use discs on a road biek


also donevil is right, the 12mm fork does look much better from what I remember seeing.

[zzy]

Not just that the UCI is standardizing neutral wheel support around 12mm. It's the most sensible option for road bikes, and TAs are the most sensible way to run discs.

[eBAUMANN]

road bikes don't need disc brakes. oh boy here we go again.

never said that...

Not just that the UCI is standardizing neutral wheel support around 12mm.

yea...because the UCI's neutral support standards have an effect on any of us...
they just go with whatever the industry is doing.
and what the industry is doing is more about $$ than anything else.

that said, i am a fan of discs and thru axles...ill just never go along with whatever the "industry standard" is solely because its the standard.
the ability to use the same wheels on 5 of my bikes is far more important to me as the end user.

[Stevemikesteve]

i am tempted to snag one myself.

Me too. Haven't yet. Curious if any potential second batch tweaks are posted anywhere. Or maybe an order at this point is actually batch # 3. Either way they definitely seem to have a good thing going and cool to hear they've been easy to deal with

[ColonelJLloyd]

Shimano made the decision for 12mm on the front. That's why others have done so, including the UCI, I imagine.

The BB height is puzzling to me as well and I ride 180 cranks. It is my primary negative with this machine, but as you mention 5mm is splitting hairs.

I have an otherwise very similar frame that I spec'd with 75mm BB drop and 15x100 front. If I ordered it tomorrow I would probably go with 80-85mm drop and 12x100 front. When I ordered my frame the only dynamo hub I could get easily was 15x100.

I'm new to discs and you bring up a good point, why build a wheelset (or two) that most likely won't be compatible with any other bike I ultimately buy? I assume at this time 15mm is still the choice up front (they offer both a 12mm and 15mm, as well as QR, fork)?

There are so many convertible hub options these days. I don't want to use hubs that aren't. I would like to know Shimano's rationale for not making their hubs convertible.

[donevwil]

I have an otherwise very similar frame that I spec'd with 75mm BB drop and 15x100 front. If I ordered it tomorrow I would probably go with 80-85mm drop and 12x100 front. When I ordered my frame the only dynamo hub I could get easily was 15x100.

I so agree, I've never been bitten by a too low BB (even with 180 cranks racing crits), be that me or the BB doesn't really matter. Kind of a casualty of stock geo unfortunately. This is not an ideal time to forward-proof a low buck TA frame purchase.

I would like to know Shimano's rationale for not making their hubs convertible.

Buy one, then be force to buy another. I agree again, part of my more deeply seeded issue. That said, are there any low buck convertible hubs (Bitex, etc.)?

[donevwil]

After a few back and forths with Braden at Ride Endpoint I put down the deposit on an XXL in the next run (late Sept delivery). That'll beat my current spot in the Elephant queue by a good half year. Since I have no other disc wheel bike I'll be going 12mm TA in the front, that'll make hub sourcing a fun project.

Now to come to terms with the planned lo-buck drivetrain spec, Campy 10 ergos (have), WI VBC 44-28 crank (have), CX70 front derailleur (have), SRAM GX 10 spd long cage rear (have), 26" Shimano 12mm TA road wheel build (oldpotatoe) and a 12-30 Ultegra 10 cassette.

[CiclistiCliff]

After a few back and forths with Braden at Ride Endpoint I put down the deposit on an XXL in the next run (late Sept delivery). That'll beat my current spot in the Elephant queue by a good half year. Since I have no other disc wheel bike I'll be going 12mm TA in the front, that'll make hub sourcing a fun project.

Now to come to terms with the planned lo-buck drivetrain spec, Campy 10 ergos (have), WI VBC 44-28 crank (have), CX70 front derailleur (have), SRAM GX 10 spd long cage rear (have), 26" Shimano 12mm TA road wheel build (oldpotatoe) and a 12-30 Ultegra 10 cassette.

Sounds like a perfect build, but why 26" wheel?

[donevwil]

Sounds like a perfect build, but why 26" wheel?

I'm 240# and live in an area with very poor roads so bigger is very much better for the riding I do. Currently riding Compass Snoqualmie 700 x 44s and love them, but can easily see going bigger. Compass Rat Trap Pass 26 x 2.3" are significantly larger than Switchback Hill 650b x 48s yet the same diameter +/- as Babyshoe 42s which will be on my eventual 2nd wheelset and make fender fitment simpler. I already have an awesome 700c bike that fits 38s so this will fill out the big tire range without having to give up on a road Q-factor which my hips will not allow.

[ColonelJLloyd]

Compass Rat Trap Pass 26 x 2.3" are significantly larger than Switchback Hill 650b x 48s

FWIW, the RTPs typically measure out around 52-54mm wide. Both pair of SBH that I've owned measured 50-52 depending on rim and pressure.

[Rimbaud]

After a few back and forths with Braden at Ride Endpoint I put down the deposit on an XXL in the next run (late Sept delivery)....
Now to come to terms with the planned lo-buck drivetrain spec, C26" Shimano 12mm TA road wheel build (oldpotatoe) and a 12-30 Ultegra 10 cassette.

Presumably you've already discussed this with Braden, but I had the same idea of building up a Hunter Gatherer with 26"/Compass RTP. Here is the direct quote from Braden:

"We have not tested a 26" tire but the way the stays are worked to keep them short I suspect it will NOT work."

[R3awak3n]

I wouod be very surprised if the rat trap pass tires do not fit this frame.

[ColonelJLloyd]

The frame and fork were made to fit 27.5x2.25 so, to me, it makes zero sense to use 26" wheels. You're not going to be able to fit wider tires with the smaller diameter rim and your tire options in 584 tires is as good or better than 559.

[R3awak3n]

The frame and fork were made to fit 27.5x2.25 so, to me, it makes zero sense to use 26" wheels. You're not going to be able to fit wider tires with the smaller diameter rim and your tire options in 584 tires is as good or better than 559.

I agree. I am about to build a 26in wheelset because I got a good deal on the parts but I am starting to wonder if I want to do that because the tire choice is much better in 650b right now. In 26 you get rat traps and a few decent knobies but 650 is blowing up right now, compass is about to release a 42mm knobby, wtb is releasing tons of stuff. It has never been a better time to have a 650b bike.

[donevwil]

Presumably you've already discussed this with Braden, but I had the same idea of building up a Hunter Gatherer with 26"/Compass RTP. Here is the direct quote from Braden:

"We have not tested a 26" tire but the way the stays are worked to keep them short I suspect it will NOT work."

Discussions with Braden have been a bit hit and miss, I've asked this Q and received no response. Since the NFE is clearly advertised as ideal for 650x42 and 26x2.3 I simply assumed why wouldn't they fit, but Colonel may have a point wrt chainstay bend.

I wouod be very surprised if the rat trap pass tires do not fit this frame.

That was my thought as well, but clearly I need to get some more in-the-know feedback. Very little info of any sort out there on the HG.

The frame and fork were made to fit 27.5x2.25 so, to me, it makes zero sense to use 26" wheels. You're not going to be able to fit wider tires with the smaller diameter rim and your tire options in 584 tires is as good or better than 559.

I do appreciate your perspective, but my preference is smaller diameter and lower BB, likely neither of which the HG is consistent with. I plan to run fenders full time on this bike and use 650x42s as my primary when I can ultimately afford a nice 650b wheelset. RTP 26s have the same diameter hence no fender adjustment required when swapping to bigger tires, at least that was my theory.

[ColonelJLloyd]

Have you determined that the Hunter/Gatherer geo is better for you than the Coffee Grinder? Trail would only be slightly increased if you used the H/G fork.

[donevwil]

Have you determined that the Hunter/Gatherer geo is better for you than the Coffee Grinder? Trail would only be slightly increased if you used the H/G fork.

No, this move to the HG was more of a reaction to the ongoing delays with the NFE and, ultimately, some money saved. I may simplify this issue by going 650b and Compass SBH as you mentioned earlier.

Now to find a suitably wide 650b rim that comes in 36h.

[ColonelJLloyd]

36h means pretty slim pickins. The Stan's Arch EX looks pretty good, though. 26mm is pretty wide for a BSP, but it's not too wide. I ran Blunt SS (26.6 internal) for a while with both SBH and 42mm Pari Motos and never felt the rim was too wide.

That said, even though you're a bigger guy you can build 32h wheels more than strong enough with the right component selection.

I'm running Crest Mk3 and Flow Mk3 rims (32h all around) on two bikes and haven't had any issues yet (I'm ~190-195 lbs) and these are super lightweight rims.

[R3awak3n]

I seriously don't think you need a rim with more spokes than 32 at your weight. Get a nice strong rim (WTB, Easton Arc) and it will be great.

[donevwil]

36h means pretty slim pickins. The Stan's Arch EX looks pretty good, though. 26mm is pretty wide for a BSP, but it's not too wide. I ran Blunt SS (26.6 internal) for a while with both SBH and 42mm Pari Motos and never felt the rim was too wide.

That said, even though you're a bigger guy you can build 32h wheels more than strong enough with the right component selection.

I'm running Crest Mk3 and Flow Mk3 rims (32h all around) on two bikes and haven't had any issues yet (I'm ~190-195 lbs) and these are super lightweight rims.

I looked at the Blunt SS, but the 395g weight concerns me. Did they hold up well for you? With a 26" build I had intended on the Blunt 35, but they are on the portly side (especially in 650b) and certainly wider than needed.

I seriously don't think you need a rim with more spokes than 32 at your weight. Get a nice strong rim (WTB, Easton Arc) and it will be great.

I've been down the "32h is fine" path many, many times, I'm in the four additional spokes don't weigh much and add plenty camp. Plus I already have the 32f/36r 12mm TA hubset.

[ColonelJLloyd]

I had zero issues with the Blunt SS 650b (32h f/r). That particular wheelset was built by Velocity and those guys are top shelf. The Aileron is available in 650b now and 36h might be an option. It's only 20mm internal, though.

The Arch EX weighs 30g more than the Blunt SS so you can assume it has a touch more material to be some tiny bit more robust. 3x with 2.0/1.8/2.0 and brass nipples and the wheel itself is going to be plenty strong. The risk with lightweight aluminum rims isn't that the wheel isn't strong it's that the rim can dent from rocks or roots. For road use this isn't much of a worry.

I managed to get tangled up with this stick and the rim didn't dent and the wheel didn't go out of true in the slightest.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7656/27945049356_6cd594d8ca_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/JzpFzN)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/JzpFzN) by ColonelJLloyd (https://www.flickr.com/photos/51002114@N03/), on Flickr

[ptourkin]

Re: the Hunter Gatherer - interested parties might want to talk to someone who got a bike in the last batch. The QC was not great. Hopefully they are addressing this but even the less picky types on here would probably have bones to pick.

[donevwil]

Re: the Hunter Gatherer - interested parties might want to talk to someone who got a bike in the last batch. The QC was not great. Hopefully they are addressing this but even the less picky types on here would probably have bones to pick.

There lies one of the primary problems, little to no feedback or opinion online so I relied on those here who had only great things to say about Endpoint and FBM in general. I have read about some issues with incomplete frame prep, but nothing that wasn't reasonably correctable.

Ultimately I'm fully aware that one gets what they pay for so I've got an open mind.

[R3awak3n]

Re: the Hunter Gatherer - interested parties might want to talk to someone who got a bike in the last batch. The QC was not great. Hopefully they are addressing this but even the less picky types on here would probably have bones to pick.

who is this someone? No good to drop this knowledge and not expand on it. How many frames had QC problems? What QC problems? A few? ok, most of them? not ok.

I have not heard many complaints from the people that posted complete pics online.

[Sparshall]

FWIW, I have an Endpoint Coffee Grinder that I purchased in Nov 2015 with a custom power coat paintjob. I was and have been completely satisfied. No issues with quailty at all.

[ColonelJLloyd]

I've been down the "32h is fine" path many, many times, I'm in the four additional spokes don't weigh much and add plenty camp. Plus I already have the 32f/36r 12mm TA hubset.

Treat yourself. (https://www.lightbicycle.com/carbon-mountain-bike/carbon-mountain-bike-rim/650B)

[donevwil]

Treat yourself. (https://www.lightbicycle.com/carbon-mountain-bike/carbon-mountain-bike-rim/650B)

Yowza, definite candidates for wheelset #2.

[donevwil]

Delivery is near and after a few months of trying to avoid getting edgy over the delays and lack/absence of communication I'm excited! Anyone else getting one?

http://www.fbmbmx.com/wordpress-content/uploads/2018/02/DSC_0001-650x433.jpg

[CiclistiCliff]

Very small company, extremely fast growth, unexpected tubing sourcing issues (True Temper), very detail oriented and found possible QC issues from manufacturer (FBM) found on a few frames slowed things down but they're shipping out now.

I, too, had some delays in receiving my Coffee Grinder back in 2016 but once I threw a leg over the bike all my worries disappeared. Such great bikes.

Trust me, you won't regret the purchase or wait.

[donevwil]

Very small company, extremely fast growth, unexpected tubing sourcing issues (True Temper), very detail oriented and found possible QC issues from manufacturer (FBM) found on a few frames slowed things down but they're shipping out now.

I, too, had some delays in receiving my Coffee Grinder back in 2016 but once I threw a leg over the bike all my worries disappeared. Such great bikes.

Trust me, you won't regret the purchase or wait.

Always good to hear positives. Strange how excited I am to build up what will be the least expensive new frameset I've owned.

Received this email on Sunday. Yay!

1697954713

[R3awak3n]

Always good to hear positives. Strange how excited I am to build up what will be the least expensive new frameset I've owned.

Received this email on Sunday. Yay!

1697954713

Happy for you Evan! Can't wait to hear your thoughts. Is yours clear brown?

[donevwil]

Happy for you Evan! Can't wait to hear your thoughts. Is yours clear brown?

Yup, with matching milk crate rack perfect for the Swift Polaris porteur bag I received for Christmas. Now to start disassembly of my good ol' BMC Monster Cross.

[belopsky]

Who got some of these? Thoughts?

[R3awak3n]

I know donevil got his so he will probably comment.

[donevwil]

I know donevil got his so he will probably comment.

donevil, you trying to tell me something?

Who got some of these? Thoughts?

I do, still awaiting some good will from Endpoint so any comments will be via PM (i.e. belopsky, feel free to PM me with any questions).

[R3awak3n]

donevil, you trying to tell me something?



I do, still awaiting some good will from Endpoint so any comments will be via PM (i.e. belopsky, feel free to PM me with any questions).

:hello: hey everyone always calls me raekwon :)

[ColonelJLloyd]

:hello: hey everyone always calls me raekwon :)

The day I realized that wasn't your moniker I had a sad.

https://media.giphy.com/media/qfMIchepn953G/giphy.gif

[R3awak3n]

The day I realized that wasn't your moniker I had a sad.

https://media.giphy.com/media/qfMIchepn953G/giphy.gif

Hey I embrace it... specially cuz raekwon is my favorite wutang member