Icarus netflix documentary?

[ivanooze]

so i noticed that netflix has bought a sundance documentary film known as "Icarus" which is a film about an amateur cyclist using PEDs to see if they really work

-my assumption was that since netflix bought the movie, it would be easy to find on their website but i still havent found it yet. Are there any suggestions as to how to watch this movie at all?

here's a link to some info on the movie and it being purchased by netflix

http://www.indiewire.com/2017/01/netflix-icarus-sundance-film-acquisition-1201772926/

[smontanaro]

I suspect it will take awhile for it to complete whatever post-production remains. They only bought it a week or so ago.

[bthornt]

You can watch it on Netflix now.

[ojingoh]

Riveting! If you're looking for doping, and a tragedy, this is your doc.

[swaterfall]

Yep, definitely worth a watch. Not what I expected... much better

[merckxman]

Watched on NETFLIX last night. Excellent. Started with cycling, morphed into something much larger.

[bthornt]

If you enjoyed Icarus, there is a documentary about the systematic doping program in East Germany during the 1960s and 70s. You can watch it on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6RPsdUKbno

[mtechnica]

I really wish it was more about cycling, seems like it went completely sideways about 1/3 the way through.

[rlanger]

I really wish it was more about cycling, seems like it went completely sideways about 1/3 the way through.

Agreed. I enjoyed the first third or so, which focused on cycling. Not so much the second part.

[cadence90]

I watched it last night and found it interesting but also pretty flawed. Both Fogel and Rodchenko appear to love being on camera a bit too much. Rodchenko especially clearly loves melodrama, and he also comes off as pretty slippery and not entirely convincing. The whole cloak-and-dagger aspect to the film became annoying to me, and the use of Orwell's "1984" is a completely lame and unnecessary conceit. Still, it is worth watching.

[goonster]

Riveting, and the second part of the story is actually much bigger than the first.

I can't get this part out of my head: a regional power (heh) used top-level state resources to cheat at sports. The FSB figured out a way to defeat packaging technology previously believed to be secure. Untold billions in the pharma/healthcare industry rely on the integrity of containers like that.

Burn it all the down. Fold up the tent and go home. Elite athletes of the world, you are the playthings of old men in obscenely expensive suits. Find a venue not poisoned by money. Refuse to be a pawn in world leaders' d**k-measuring contests.

There's a big flaw in the film though: it is never explained why Rudchenko, director of a WADA-accredited lab, is so eager (giddy, even) to coach an amateur's doping program, and openly talk about other improprieties, on the record. That's not to discredit him, or the film, but wouldn't that have gotten him in trouble with his higher-ups even if he hadn't been fingered by WADA after Sochi?

[cadence90]

Riveting, and the second part of the story is actually much bigger than the first.

I can't get this part out of my head: a regional power (heh) used top-level state resources to cheat at sports. The FSB figured out a way to defeat packaging technology previously believed to be secure. Untold billions in the pharma/healthcare industry rely on the integrity of containers like that.
That was one of the aspects that bugged me: the FSB figures out how to open those supposedly tamper-proof Beger bottles, but then they move the bottles from the "secure" room via a hole in the wall, and shuttle them out the back door and across the parking lot in the dead of night? :confused: Weak.

There's a big flaw in the film though: it is never explained why Rudchenko, director of a WADA-accredited lab, is so eager (giddy, even) to coach an amateur's doping program, and openly talk about other improprieties, on the record. That's not to discredit him, or the film, but wouldn't that have gotten him in trouble with his higher-ups even if he hadn't been fingered by WADA after Sochi?
Yes, it is a big problem that the film never explains this. Catlin suggests Rodchenko to Fogel, and then Fogel/Rodchenko become bffs via Skype with no explanation as to why/how? :confused: Again, weak.

[goonster]

That was one of the aspects that bugged me: the FSB figures out how to open those supposedly tamper-proof Beger bottles, but then they move the bottles from the "secure" room via a hole in the wall, and shuttle them out the back door and across the parking lot in the dead of night? :confused: Weak.

That part makes sense to me. Whatever it is that they do to the Bereg bottles, it takes time and it involves equipment that is larger than, say, a refrigerator. You can't do it in the Olympic lab with any sort of plausible deniability.

[ntb1001]

I just watched it last night. This movie really says a lot. When this was really happening I didn't understand how Russia was so involved. Incredible how WADA's results were disregarded by the IOC at the end. I think it shows more of a problem with IOC than even Russia.


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[e-RICHIE]

There's a big flaw in the film though: it is never explained why Rudchenko, director of a WADA-accredited lab, is so eager (giddy, even) to coach an amateur's doping program, and openly talk about other improprieties, on the record. That's not to discredit him, or the film, but wouldn't that have gotten him in trouble with his higher-ups even if he hadn't been fingered by WADA after Sochi?

I watched it twice, and both times came away feeling like there were two separate movies rolled into one, and not that well connected at that. It's as if the filmmaker began the project with one agenda and when the walls started closing in on Rudchenko, he flicked a switch and the story became that rather than his own racing and doping program. To that end, we never did learn what happened to his dreams of being competitive at Haute Route. That chapter simply died on the vine.

Regarding the Russian - it makes no sense at all that, from the beginning, he'd agree to mentor and also be filmed on Skype while still being a somewhat high ranking member of the sports system in his country.

[daker13]

Regarding the Russian - it makes no sense at all that, from the beginning, he'd agree to mentor and also be filmed on Skype while still being a somewhat high ranking member of the sports system in his country.

Yeah, I didn't get that either.

I do think there are two films here, one about a very good amateur racer who tries doping, and one about the Soviet doping scandal (which is a much bigger story). What happens in the movie is that a film about the first thing turns into a film about the second. I agree with a lot of the others, I actually found the first part a more compelling film... the mechanics of doping are kind of fascinating to me, and I always liked that Outside article by the 50 year old guy who tries juicing.. but what the movie reveals about Olympic doping is really pretty staggering, and I can certainly see why he focused on that instead. NYT reviewer found the second part much more compelling, as I remember.

[dancinkozmo]

Regarding the Russian - it makes no sense at all that, from the beginning, he'd agree to mentor and also be filmed on Skype while still being a somewhat high ranking member of the sports system in his country.

my guess.. a little bird told the russian they were going to get caught and he was using the filmmaker as his ticket out of russia .

[sailorboy]

I watched it twice, and both times came away feeling like there were two separate movies rolled into one, and not that well connected at that. It's as if the filmmaker began the project with one agenda and when the walls started closing in on Rudchenko, he flicked a switch and the story became that rather than his own racing and doping program. To that end, we never did learn what happened to his dreams of being competitive at Haute Route. That chapter simply died on the vine.

Regarding the Russian - it makes no sense at all that, from the beginning, he'd agree to mentor and also be filmed on Skype while still being a somewhat high ranking member of the sports system in his country.

I agree with the comments about how dis-jointed the movie is...I was kind of sleepy while watching with my laptop, and I was thinking 'did I doze off and wake up much later in the film?' when he transitioned from his own doping investigation to that of the Russian saga. It happened with such an odd segue. Still highly recommend it if you want to see the level of doping in sport. Should also dispel any remaining doubts you may have that Putin's Russia isn't one of the most corrupt governments on earth.

[e-RICHIE]

I agree with the comments about how dis-jointed the movie is...I was kind of sleepy while watching with my laptop, and I was thinking 'did I doze off and wake up much later in the film?' when he transitioned from his own doping investigation to that of the Russian saga. It happened with such an odd segue. Still highly recommend it if you want to see the level of doping in sport. Should also dispel any remaining doubts you may have that Putin's Russia isn't one of the most corrupt governments on earth.

I agree with you and will add I don't think they have a lock on the doping franchise. In my gut, I believe we here have our own version.

[wasfast]

I think the conclusion about his doping for Haute Route was no matter how much you dope, you still have to prevent mechanicals to your bike:-)

It's ironic really that after all that doping that his electronic shifting was the main cause of his poor placing. Not a value proposition IMO.

[m4rk540]

The filmmaker should have doped for the Belgian Waffle Ride. Based on what's presented in the film and a few of the director's Strava files, the Haute Route wouldn't even qualify for a C ride in some areas.

As for the Russian, the Malibu lifestyle may have been more compelling than Olympic Glory.

[bicycletricycle]

I think the conclusion about his doping for Haute Route was no matter how much you dope, you still have to prevent mechanicals to your bike:-)

It's ironic really that after all that doping that his electronic shifting was the main cause of his poor placing. Not a value proposition IMO.

Electronic shifting is awesome.

Also, he says they don't test anyways so worrying about getting busted was a waste of time .

I think we learned that doping can only elevate you do much, genetics, age, years of training, count for a lot as well.

UCLA guy was almost going to help him before the referral, perhaps all these guys feel guilty and wanted to participate just to try and get the word out. Some people want to get caught, can't handle the guilt.

The first copy of Orwell was old and marked up on the inside, perhaps Gregor really does like the book a lot.

[ntb1001]

Maybe he should've used Campy EPS...
[emoji6] [emoji6] [emoji6]

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[drewellison]

I just watched Icarus on Netflix and it is riveting! There was a Cycling Tips (I think) podcast with Bryan Fogel a few months ago which got me interested in the documentary, and adds some background information which does not come out in the documentary.

Highly recommended.

[makoti]

I just watched Icarus on Netflix and it is riveting! There was a Cycling Tips (I think) podcast with Bryan Fogel a few months ago which got me interested in the documentary, and adds some background information which does not come out in the documentary.

Highly recommended.

Hoping to watch it soon. Maybe this Sunday, since there isn't any football worth watching on. ;)

[Tickdoc]

watched it this weekend while out of town. I fell asleep about 15 min in, but then I completed the rest of it.

Meh. I did find it interesting the depths of deceit and the extent that doping was used for medals.

I hate to admit I was ready to start doping after the intro, but then I realized I have no medals on the line and my bretheren here will love me regardless.

Embrace the suck.

[ChristianWong]

It's kind of an odd documentary in how it starts. Some guy wanting to see if doping really works - guess what, it does.

However, the way he stumbled into this whole Russia thing was super interesting and is substantiated by Russia's ban from the 2018 Winter Olympics.

[m_sasso]

Because I am low budget, don't have Netflix and would rather spend my dollars on bikes, I watched it here for free: http://sockshare.video/watch/yGD9OLd6-icarus.html

Definitely worth watching and I enjoyed the development of the documentary story line from juiced racer scheme to international fraud. Grigory Rodchenkov just a fun loving grifter, achieving his own personal justice.

[jwalther]

LA interviews Fogel on his latest podcast. Fascinating stuff. https://soundcloud.com/user-411867241

[ducati2]

Nominated for an Oscar in the documentary division.

[dbnm]

Just finished watching this. Wow.

Take the time to check it out.

[yakstone]

Well worth your time.

[huck*this]

Wow, it just won an Oscar. Guess I have to give it a watch now.

[ivanooze]

allot of people are going to have a few "accidents" after confessing on camera to the Russian doping scandal

[Drmojo]

maybe a blow against Russia and doping?
but I doubt it
I loathed the rider/doper in this film

[cadence90]

maybe a blow against Russia and doping?
but I doubt it
I loathed the rider/doper in this film

Completely agree. Vastly overrated film imo.
.

[oldpotatoe]

Wow, it just won an Oscar. Guess I have to give it a watch now.

Big surprise for me. A guy who dopes to try to do better at a Fondo...and mentions ‘telling the truth’ at the Oscars....big meh for me.

[93KgBike]

I watched it twice, and both times came away feeling like there were two separate movies rolled into one...

Regarding the Russian - it makes no sense at all that, from the beginning, he'd agree to mentor and also be filmed on Skype while still being a somewhat high ranking member of the sports system in his country.

I watched this on Netflix last Fall.

It starts out as a documentary about a crass guy that is convinced he only finished 14th in Haute Route, because the other 13 guys were doping. So he decides to dope, so he can win.

He's wealthy and connected enough that he can not only buy the dope, but he can phone a friend-of-a-friend who knows a USADA scientist that worked in developing the bench science for detecting doping products.

The scientists agrees to help him develop a doping program for himself, until he considers the potential impact on his own professional legacy. There is a brief exploration of this scientists skeptical/cynical views about the ways in which the UCI uses doping control (and tolerates doping) as a means of increasing the profitability of the UCI. After bowing out, he offers to introduce crass guy to his good friend, the head scientist at a Russian WADA laboratory.

The Russian scientist reveals later in the film (after we are walked through how the Russians use the lab to systematically dope ALL Russian athletes) that because he reports to only one (very wealthy and powerful) person, and that person reports to V. Putin, that he KNOWS whenever the Russians are caught, he is going to be the fall guy for the whole program.

In the course of helping crass guy get his (doped up) baseline samples into the Russian WADA laboratory database/inventory (only state controlled WADA labs - or USADA in the USA - can provide this entry point for international elite competitors), the first Russian doping scandal occurs, bringing his worst fears to life.

The Russian scientist, who by now is crass guys "great friend", begs him to send money so that he can escape Russia before he is trotted out as the source of Russia's doping problem. In return he agrees to bring official evidence that Russia has been running a doping program for ALL of its athletes since the 1960's.

The remainder of the film focuses entirely on their relationship, and the fallout which is imminent.

The rest of the story is in the news.

I thought the film was fantastic, illuminating and despite being amoral on the question of cheating in pro-level sports deeply meaningful.

We never learn about crass guy's ambitions, as they are subsumed by the real possibility that his Russian scientist pal might get murdered by the State for airing Russia's dirty laundry.

[jmoore]

allot of people are going to have a few "accidents" after confessing on camera to the Russian doping scandal

I'm worried about his family back in Russia. Seems an easy target to get Rodchenko out of witness protection for Russia to just grab them and make their lives hell.

[smontanaro]

I watched it twice, and both times came away feeling like there were two separate movies rolled into one, ...

I think Fogel originally set out to make the first movie. That turned out to only be a prerequisite for the second. (And the second caused him to drop a second attempt at the Haute Route doping "experiment.") If he hadn't already had an apparently good relationship with Rodchenkov, I don't think the second movie gets made. As e-RICHIE wrote, it's not entirely clear how Fogel and Rodchenkov got connected in the first place, or why Rodchenkov agreed to participate in the doping experiment. The movie takes place over a couple year period. It seems clear neither of them saw how this would play out. You'd have thought Rodchenkov would have extricated his family from Russia in 2015 or early 2016. He knew how all the major players were connected and how much egg was already on Putin's face. Not a guy I'd want to cross.

I'm sure there was a pretty large dose of anti-Trump/anti-Putin sentiment tied up in the selection of the movie for the Oscar. Without that connection, it might well have not even been nominated. I'm not an Oscar watcher. I have no idea what other movies were passed over to give it a seat at the table.

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[Hawker]

I know I'm a bit late to the party on this, but I'm home sick for a few days and decided to see what is on my new Netflix channel that I got for free for 30days. I ran across this film and knew nothing about it but saw it was cycling related.

Have to tell you, I forgot how crummy I felt for two hours as I found this film riveting. I hate to say I "enjoyed" it since it made clear how broken parts of the system are and disappointing people and governments can be. But I couldn't turn away and found this to be a great documentary.

I've also found a couple of subsequent interviews with the maker of the film that fills in a lot of spaces and some other info not mentioned in the movie.

https://cyclingtips.com/2017/09/doping-documentary-interview-icarus-director-bryan-fogel/

https://soundcloud.com/user-411867241
(Episode 80)