spin class

[Lewis Moon]

I'm trying to increase the RPM at which I can effectively spin in prep for sprinting on the track this season and it seems that I tend to start getting a little ragged around 130 and top out around 140. Any good tips raising my effective spin rate into the 140+ area?

[Bentley]

I am in a cycle training program and this was actually an element of the class I had last night. I wont go thru the whole class but basically our coach said that good spinning starts with pedaling circles. Basically, a good pedal stroke facilitates good spinning or for that matter mashing.

I'm sure I am wrong about this, but that was the essence of the coaching I received on this topic.

Honestly, I am not sure why you would want to spin at 140 with a big gear. You would really have astronomical power numbers with that cadence and a big gear.


My 2 cents

Ray
.

[45K10]

I used to do my high RPM sprint workouts on rollers but I hardly ever went above 140 rpm.

[Pierre]

Not sure that the spin bike is your best option as the momentum of the heavy wheel may not give you the feedback you need to improve your technique. You will likely have better luck working on high rpm drills on a trainer or on rollers.

[john903]

Rollers. Yup I have already noticed a benefit from riding rollers. I have gotten out on the road a few times this winter after doing rollers instead of my stationary trainer. On the geared road bike I have noticed I can spin a bigger gear easier and more efficiently. I also have read and apply Ti designs pedal advice. One benefit I like about learning to spin fast is my knees like me better too.

[drewskey]

I also have read and apply Ti designs pedal advice.

I've never read so much about pedal improvement then through his/her posts. Like an encyclopedia of pedaling.

[ptourkin]

This podcast talks about neuromuscular training and increased cadence. They mention track but most of the numbers they discuss are low for track sprinters. The ones I know hold much higher numbers than what is mentioned. Just add 20 :banana:

http://www.velonews.com/2016/12/podcast/fast-talk-ep-8-stop-your-legs-from-fighting-themselves_426397

[ptourkin]

Honestly, I am not sure why you would want to spin at 140 with a big gear. You would really have astronomical power numbers with that cadence and a big gear.

.

Track. If you're sitting in at 95 rpm on 98 inches of gear and have to sprint, you've only got one option.

[mjalder2]

It's about learning to control the pedal stroke muscles and slowly increasing speed over time, right? I'm pretty new to the sport and very new to structured training, but this is what I've heard from the Fast Talk VeloNews podcast mentioned above and some TrainerRoad helper text/podcasts.

[cdn_bacon]

I suggest a deep bow, some high tempo music and just put your head down and focus:

https://youtu.be/cyTTu4Hmx6s?t=118

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyTTu4Hmx6s (whole video)

or perhaps this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNaLBfKbOVI (oh my)

aw c'mon we have to have fun sometimes :rolleyes::D:D

[benb]

I agree rollers are the best thing, spin bike is probably the worst unless it's YOUR spin bike and you can at least make sure it fits right. On top of the heavy flywheel effect most of the studio spin bikes don't fit like a real road bike so who knows if using them will actually transfer over to a real bike. I don't have rollers anymore but wish I did.

I think your bike fit is real important here, you need to have nothing going on with your cleats or saddle height that challenges you as you pedal faster.

I can go to about 150-160 if I'm trying to do a drill. I don't do it often anymore as I'm not sure what the real benefit is, I don't even own a track bike. High pedal RPM seems a benefit for sprinting but I don't do much of that. I do sprint drills fairly often though and would probably finish around 120. On the road AFAICT it only seems beneficial for the sprint. It doesn't work for me (based on power) for much of an interval at all, whether up a hill or on flat. I'll do experiments where I'll climb the hill at 80rpm, 85rpm, 90-100rpm, and I usually am slower at the higher rpm for something even 3-5 minutes.

I have a rough spot at a certain RPM that goes away at even higher RPMs.. not sure how common that is. I'll start bouncing and then smooth out. That rough spot for me is between 110-120rpm or so.

Perhaps practicing high RPM smooths your stroke out at lower RPM too, in which case it's worth practicing. It's fun to practice IMO.

[Wayne77]

I'm an absolute novice in this area but for me at least I've been forced to get comfortable at 120-130+ rpm out of necessity to get through some of the intervals during Computrainer torture sessions my team does 3X a week. After 45 minutes doing race intervals when the coach throws in several 30 second to 1 minute intervals at 130-150% of FTP the ONLY way I can survive is by spinning up like mad. As soon as my cadence drops below 90 I'm done. Literally.

I've never tried any high cadence work on rollers but I'd think one would get more benefit (maybe only after technique is honed on the rollers?), spinning super high cadence under some pretty good loads for shorter intervals....maybe 140-150% of FTP...after doing some longer 5-10 min sweet-spot intervals around 85-95% of FTP. But that's just me regurgitating what I'm trying to grasp my coach saying...so take it with a grain of salt.

[benb]

I've never tried any high cadence work on rollers but I'd think one would get more benefit (maybe only after technique is honed on the rollers?), spinning super high cadence under some pretty good loads for shorter intervals....maybe 140-150% of FTP...after doing some longer 5-10 min sweet-spot intervals around 85-95% of FTP. But that's just me regurgitating what I'm trying to grasp my coach saying...so take it with a grain of salt.

Your power goes nuts when you do this anyway.. it'd be really hard to spin 120+ rpm without putting out a ton of power so of course it isn't a long term thing. As long as you're not going downhill or drastically downshifting to do the interval AFAICT your power must climb a lot if you go to a super high RPM.

I haven't done this workout you mention, sounds interesting. I had a training plan from a coach last year, the only high RPM stuff I did was various sprint intervals that always called for selecting a gear and not changing it as you went through the interval. They'd usually specify starting at 60rpm and sprinting (seated) and trying to spin out the gear to the highest RPM possible. They'd last no more than 20-30sec IIRC. Maximum power would be way higher than FTP.. around 3X. I would not have described this as something I was doing to improve pedal stroke though I guess.

The stuff I've done on my own in the past would have been mostly around 1 minute high RPM intervals, those would probably end up between 150-200% of my FTP.

[Bentley]

Track. If you're sitting in at 95 rpm on 98 inches of gear and have to sprint, you've only got one option.

So you go from 95 to 140, not seeing it. My guess the race is over before you come close. But I'm not a track guy 😃

[ptourkin]

So you go from 95 to 140, not seeing it. My guess the race is over before you come close. But I'm not a track guy 😃

Ever seen a points race? 95 is pretty low for an elite rider. 140 isn't even close to the top end. You have to visualize going fast with just one gear and then going even faster to catch a move and faster than that to win a sprint. Without shifting.

[Tony T]

The title of this thread reminded me of this cartoon:

https://brettfish.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/pearlsbeforegym.gif

(Keep in mind that that character "Pig" is very gullible and usually believes everything that he's told)

[Bentley]

Ever seen a points race? 95 is pretty low for an elite rider. 140 isn't even close to the top end. You have to visualize going fast with just one gear and then going even faster to catch a move and faster than that to win a sprint. Without shifting.


Like i said im not a track guy i am struggling with how you increase your cadence by 50% in a "final" sprint. I do some work in my cycle classes were we go from like go from like 60 to 85 rpm with a big gear and your power generally increases 200 to 300 percent in 5 sec and then you are holding on to maintain. my sense is if you are in a race you are likely pushing a big gear, probably for all its worth and i have to believe the power to do what you are suggesting likely means 400 to 500% increase. Im sure it is something that the best sprinters might be able to do but ismit really something a normal rider could get benfit from.

I understand I dont have any experience to draw on, I am really asking about the physics.

Best

Ray

[fiamme red]

François Pervis shows how it's done: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abHnNGLt-AU.

[ptourkin]

I love that video. There were some races the last few years where the pro track riders had their power numbers displayed on the scoreboard. Maybe they are on YouTube.

A cat 2 sitting in the field in a points race might be making around 285-300w and then hit 1200-1500w in a big sprint. For elite racers it can be bigger than that. Some of those guys can hit 2000.

[mjalder2]

I've heard hitting 200 rpm is pretty common for trackies. I don't know how quickly they can get there, but it happens.


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[sparky33]

What...was...that?
I'm home sick as a dog in bed this evening, but that made me laugh out loud. I can't look away.

I suggest a deep bow, some high tempo music and just put your head down and focus:

https://youtu.be/cyTTu4Hmx6s?t=118

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyTTu4Hmx6s (whole video)

[bewheels]

Like i said im not a track guy i am struggling with how you increase your cadence by 50% in a "final" sprint. I do some work in my cycle classes were we go from like go from like 60 to 85 rpm with a big gear and your power generally increases 200 to 300 percent in 5 sec and then you are holding on to maintain. my sense is if you are in a race you are likely pushing a big gear, probably for all its worth and i have to believe the power to do what you are suggesting likely means 400 to 500% increase. Im sure it is something that the best sprinters might be able to do but ismit really something a normal rider could get benfit from.

I understand I dont have any experience to draw on, I am really asking about the physics.

Best

Ray

60-85 rpm is going from very low to about low-neutral as far trained cyclists are concerned.

One way to think about this is - if you were driving a car with a manual transmission in third gear at 3000rpm and then floored it, it would put a lot of strain on the engine. Whereas if you were had the rpms at 6000 and floored it you would not lug the engine and would accelerate much easier.

[weisan]

I've heard hitting 200 rpm is pretty common for trackies. I don't know how quickly they can get there, but it happens.


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260 rpm...don't blink.
https://youtu.be/a5PcQJF5Jl0

[mjalder2]

That's nuts. Clips and cleats to stay anchored too!


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[Lewis Moon]

260 rpm...don't blink.
https://youtu.be/a5PcQJF5Jl0

Jeebus. I have a long way to go...

[flydhest]

Like i said im not a track guy i am struggling with how you increase your cadence by 50% in a "final" sprint. I do some work in my cycle classes were we go from like go from like 60 to 85 rpm with a big gear and your power generally increases 200 to 300 percent in 5 sec and then you are holding on to maintain. my sense is if you are in a race you are likely pushing a big gear, probably for all its worth and i have to believe the power to do what you are suggesting likely means 400 to 500% increase. Im sure it is something that the best sprinters might be able to do but ismit really something a normal rider could get benfit from.



I understand I dont have any experience to draw on, I am really asking about the physics.



Best



Ray



Ray,
Not to be harsh, but I think the most important aspect of your post is where you repeat that you are not a track guy and don't have any experience to draw on. Even on the road, an increase in power from 250 watts to well over 1000 watts is not that unusual. Sitting in in a pack and then going for the sprint and getting in the wind and accelerating . . . Massive differential in power output. If you can't make that change in 5 seconds, you are right, you don't win, but that is sort of the point.

You note you are not a trackie (neither am I, have only raced on the track a few times), but I am curious as to your experience racing on the road and if you have done it with a power meter.


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[mjalder2]

Ray,
I am curious as to your experience racing on the road and if you have done it with a power meter.

I think he's talking about cadence, not power numbers. I suppose it's all related on the track though since they're riding fixed gears.

[Lewis Moon]

Basically, what I hope to achieve is the ability to run a gear I can accelerate from an effective dead stop up to ~38 mph. It will necessarily be a compromise, and being able to spin at higher RPM will allow me to run a more "jumpable" gear on the bottom.

[flydhest]

I think he's talking about cadence, not power numbers. I suppose it's all related on the track though since they're riding fixed gears.



Yep, i am with you. Ray had phrased his post though in terms of both power and cadence so I was trying to be consistent.

The OP was all about cadence, sure. I think the suggestions here are all good but if I was the one asking, I would pm Ti Designs and 11.4 and get their views, see where they overlap, see where they disagree. Think real hard about it, and then find a local coach to work with because there is no substitute for working directly with a qualified coach, in my experience. (Of course how to find a qualified coach and verify that s/he is qualified if you are not already an expert is a topic for its own thread.)

[Bentley]

Your note is not harsh. So I train, 2 a week on a Computrainer and then like 150mi a week on the road. I can honestly say we do a lot of work on power and strength. I can easily see my power increase 2x to 3x, seated when we are doing pops, I am sure it could be more if I were out of the saddle, but honestly, I spin at a good cadence, 95 to 100 or just a shade more, and to got to 140 seated, turning circles, not gonna happen. I would say that above 120 I am at a point where my "spinning" is compromised, I would share that there is a broad range of ages in my class and I think the spinning gets rough above 110.

We generally do a 1 min all out, I have a technique that gets me thru the min at like 250% of my FTP, I can do 300% or more if its only 20 sec. I understand Cavendish can push like 1500 watts during some of his sprints.

My guess is that what I do relates to track racing like drag racing relates to road racing. The numbers seem to be beyond what "normal" folks could do, more importantly can "normal" people benefit from that kind of training.

I am thinking I ought to just quit on this thread, clearly this is not my thing.

That video was kinda of amazing, I googled, he is not a world champion, even a former world champion.

Ray
Ray,
Not to be harsh, but I think the most important aspect of your post is where you repeat that you are not a track guy and don't have any experience to draw on. Even on the road, an increase in power from 250 watts to well over 1000 watts is not that unusual. Sitting in in a pack and then going for the sprint and getting in the wind and accelerating . . . Massive differential in power output. If you can't make that change in 5 seconds, you are right, you don't win, but that is sort of the point.

You note you are not a trackie (neither am I, have only raced on the track a few times), but I am curious as to your experience racing on the road and if you have done it with a power meter.


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[fiamme red]

That video was kinda of amazing, I googled, he is not a world champion, even a former world champion.Are you referring to François Pervis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Pervis)? He's a six-time world champion (including the kilo, match sprint, and keirin in 2014) and a holder of two world records (kilo and 200m).

[Bentley]

Are you referring to François Pervis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Pervis)? He's a six-time world champion (including the kilo, match sprint, and keirin in 2014) and a holder of two world records (kilo and 200m).

Oops, I googled the wrong name. Thanks

[Look585]

Basically, what I hope to achieve is the ability to run a gear I can accelerate from an effective dead stop up to ~38 mph. It will necessarily be a compromise, and being able to spin at higher RPM will allow me to run a more "jumpable" gear on the bottom.

0-to-38mph is essentially lap one of any timed sprint event. Depending on whether you are going for max acceleration (team sprint man1, or 500tt), max top speed (team sprint man2, or 750tt) or something in between (team sprint man3, or kiloTT) you'll probably be on a gear of something in the 94"-106" range. You probably won't get past about 150rpms in any of those cases, and likely more in the 130-140 range.

How do you get comfortable in that range? Rollers, on your track bike in the drops, work up to 60s intervals above your targeted range. Outside, on your track bike in the drops, undergeared flying 100s where you push up to 160+ rpms.