Serotta TT bike

[Too Tall]

The big guy needs a TT bike. So why not just order up a CXII ? Yeah I need custom. Due to my freakish proportions my current 73.2 ST needs to come forward at least 2 clicks and nobody makes an off the shelf TT bike I can ride. Too bad as the Cervelo is one heck of a great TT bike for the dollars spent.

So, as always I leave it to your wise and sensitive judgement. Help me out, I am out of my comfort zone shopping for a TT bike.

Oh yeah, the reason I need a TT bike is coach says I NEED to drop the front end of my profile about 20 feet and there is no way to do it with my current bike and be able to breath...seriously my thighs would hit my chest.

Thanks

[Bruce K]

I don't think the size large HED frame is big enough for you but take a look on their website.

If it fits, $1200 for frame fork and seatpost is one heck of a deal.

BK

[EdK]

Too Tall = How Tall ? or more appropriatly what dimensions are you looking for in a TT frame. I am 6'1" and am selling this (Teschner Aero FX Pro) TT bike 75 degree ST. I just don't ride it and it is like new plus I have to pay for my new Clll track bike. You can read all about it in the add. It is just beautiful. If it dosen't fit Peter makes an excellent product. A bit pricey with the dollar situation but check them out. One real great thing about this bike is that it has standard rear drop outs unlike the P3. This makes a wheel change much easier in a race if that matters to you.

Also have attached a few of the photos. Can send you more detail if you like. I am selling frame, fork, seat post and headset.

The one I am selling

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3670258420

Peter's web site

http://www.teschnerbikes.com/top.html

[Smiley]

Guys , unless your talking in the range of 64 by 64 don't even think of pedaling your used wares on the Tall Guy , he's 6 ft 8 inches and thats why he's Too Tall :banana: :banana:

[EdK]

Hey Smiley not trying to pedal any used wares to anyone. Just trying to enlighten. (trying desperately to not jump into a Jerk like tirade right now).

Too Tall asked about TT bikes. I would hate to see anyone settle for a P3 if they could have something much better. If this worked for him good for him, if not at least he knows where another potential source may be. I do believe that's what he asked. While I am certain Ben's TT bike would be awesome. Most folks on this forum want to understand the entire landscape.

[Smiley]

Relax Ed , no harm in pedally wares its America after all, But there is a reason he's calling himself Too Tall , I think he rode a 57 cm frame in elementary school. Now if your bike had a 64-65 cm ST and a 63 cm TT with a 74 STA , it would be perfect ( it may be a buy for someone else here ). Fact is I don't know if the Tall Guy buys anything off the rack . Looks like a great bike and if I was in the market for a TT bike I'd buy it as it looks to fit me perfectly. I am sure it will sell and fetch a pretty penny at that. Best of luck.

[Too Tall]

Ed, I'm drooling. Sweeeeet bike. Unfortunately I need a 63 TT and minimum of 75 ST but will have to mock it up on a size cycle to be darn sure saddle setback will be UCI legal yada yada. I hate being special sometimes.

[MarinRider]

I recently purchased a TT bike through and was fitted by the shop that's affiliated with a domestic pro team. As it was explained to me there are two ways to fit a TT bike: the first is tall and narrow like Lance, and the second is low and wide, like David Millard.

Tall and narrow take a lot of trial and errors, lots of tweaks, changing parts, and if you can afford them, wind tunnel tests. Tall and narrow TT bikes are simialr to your regular road bike's geometry: slack seat tubes, tall head tubes, etc. If you at Trek's TT bike, they have road bike angles and short top tubes (to bring the bar near your elbows).

Low and wide are much easier to fit. You wil end up with steep sa to bring your head over the bar. 75 to 78 are the norm these days. (80 was in fasion in mid 90's but that has pretty much not done any more).

Also consider which TT bar you will be using during the fitting. HED and Oval bars are wonderful, but both require you to use a short stem and thus would effect handling.

Expect to take at least a month of adjustments on the TT bike. Do some races or rides are full effort then try something else next time. It's actually a lot of fun.

Good luck.

[Too Tall]

MarinRider, good words my friend. School me some more. I just did a 12 mile TT saturday and won it besting a current State 30+ TT champ. Setup was using my road bike w/1 cm less saddle setback and a set of Syntace bars. Video is pretty funny. Comparing my normal hand on the hoods and riding low position to the TT position....hilarious because all the bars did was to move my hands in some...woopie ;( I am a big wind sock. If the ST angle is any slacker and esp. if I add more drop to bars I will have thigh angle issues. My fitter at racing camp confirmed all that and it's pretty apparent....but I do "get" the low and wide bit in my minds eye. Give me a ball park Low / Wide TT bike based on current spec. 73.2 ST, 64 TT. I'll play with that on a size cycle and take some pics.

PS - I'm going with Serotta because of Smiley and the great support from the factory...end of story. Why mess around?

[Ahneida Ride]

Hey T**2

How can you ride a 64 at 6'8. I'm 6'4 and i'm on a 64 and could have
gone to a 65 ! short Legs ????

Care to explain Smiley ????

Congrats on the win !!!! I'm impressed.

My Best Regards,

[Smiley]

Big feet for starters and Too Tall also use 180 mm cranks ( so he could ride a longer ST bike) . Now we also stacked the ST collar cause the Tall Guy does not like his TT up against it either. Tall also rides will the KOP behind the pedal axel like 2 cm for set up so he uses the leverage of his leg bones . Ahnieda this guy is a machine when he spins those 180 mm cranks , we should just use him to generate electricity during an outage.

[MarinRider]

Too Tall, beating state TT champ in a race is no small accomplishment. You see I also race and ride with the district TT champ here in Nor Cal. He routinely put 2+ minutes on me in a 20 mile TT race. I am not exactly slow and placed top 10 in 4 in the first couple of times out. You must also be Too Strong, Too Fast, and Tood Good...

I will leave it to Smiley's capable hands to set you up right on the TT bike. I'll just give you a point of reference for my own set up. I am pretty average build at 6'0", 165 lb.

Road Geometry
73 SA, 73 HA, 56.5 TT, 57 ST, 12CM, -17 Stem, 15 Head Tube Length

TT Geometry
76 SA, 73 HA, 55.4 TT, 50 ST, 9CM, 0 Stem, 11 HT length using Oval TT Bar.

Our District TT Race in early June (2 wks before the nationals). If no-one shows for the race and I win, I'll see you at the nationals.

Now go kick some *ss!

[Smiley]

Marin Rider what kind of TT bars you using , elbow pad location relative to the handlebars ? Thanks

[MarinRider]

Smiley,

I use the new Oval Carbon Integrated TT Bar. It is similar to the HED unit but Oval has 1) more adjustment options, and 2) brake hoods (if you can call it that) are much longer for my big paws.

My pads are about 3-4 cm above the bar in the middle and the most far back position.

I am finding that I prefer to have the pads nearer to my elbows rather than in middle of the fore arms.

Hope this make sense to you. Let me know if you have more questions.

[Too Tall]

Sweet! This yr. our goal is to race the TT on tandem...but hey if I can find some TT form on my single what the heck I'll bring my single bike to Utah as well and maybe Queen will too.. It's all a crap shoot. This our first season back from a long time in Ultra-distance jail ;)

I was going to use Syntace Cowhorns with clip ons. Is there a better way to go? If it is marginal I'd rather look old school...I'd feel better if I don't do well and am NOT sporting all sorts of shee shee equipment. :cool:

OK, I have some basic figures to work with now: -1cm TT, +2/3 cm ST, whack current 2cm HT extension, same BB. Will the bar choice affect HT?

Sorry for all the questions chief. Last one today...what color paint is fastest?

Kidding.

[Ken Lehner]

Too Tall asked about TT bikes. I would hate to see anyone settle for a P3 if they could have something much better. If this worked for him good for him, if not at least he knows where another potential source may be. I do believe that's what he asked. While I am certain Ben's TT bike would be awesome. Most folks on this forum want to understand the entire landscape.

Funny you should say "settle for a P3", when your bike, with the normal dropouts, leave an enormous space between the rear tire and the seat tube cutout, pretty much nullifying the benefit. A P3 (and my P2K), with it's horizontal dropout, allows the rear tire to be as close to the cutout as you want. What is "much better" than a P3, and why? And what is it about the Serotta TT bike that makes it a TT bike? Is it the aerodynamic tubing? Is it the steep seat angle? Is it the ability to get a very low front end? Just curious.

[Bruce K]

Actually, I didn't know Serotta made a TT specific bike.

I waas under the impression the CX was a triathalon frame.

Here comes the heresey...

While it is beautiful (in typical Serotta fashion) it is not as aero as many other frames, and it is not a frame that I would normally think of as a TT bike.

The aero tubing, the "hiding" of the rear wheel, internal cable routing, are all aero "tricks" that "clean up" a frame.

If you look at TT specific frames like Cervelo, Trek, Orbea, HED, Teschner,to name a few, you will see many of these thing incorporated into the design.

Believe it or not, skinsuits and aero helmets contribute quite a bit to the package.

I would love to hear from the jerk on this one as I am sure he would have some interesting and excellent observations.

BK

[zap]

Actually, all those aero bikes miss the most important element in frame aerodynamics. An aero headset/headtube assembly.

Now the Look Monoblade has an aero external carbon steerer tube and is probably (still) the slickest machine out there. Thanks to the French government for underwriting the aero development cost for Look and the French National Cycling team.

Oh, and talk about a super stiff, responsive carbon frameset.

[Smiley]

Ah the French also make nice pommes frites ! Better than Mickey D's :banana:

[zap]

They put gravey on those in French speaking Canada :argue:

[Too Tall]

The problem with talking to people is you find out too much! There is another player in the TT frame game and the frame is a full on UCI legal TT frame and fork shpaed tube cutout TT-Beast. FRENCH made ;) with an 8 week turnaround. So my initial idea to get dearly beloved Serotta to build an old(ish) school round tube TT frame with 1/2 the turnaround time and a few less $$'s is now in a bubble. Gotta smudge the air and weight pros and cons. The frame in question is CYFAC CLM. Because of the UCI restriction on saddle setback I may be comprimised , ultimately, in how low I can go and not eat my knees.

[EdK]

Funny you should say "settle for a P3", when your bike, with the normal dropouts, leave an enormous space between the rear tire and the seat tube cutout, pretty much nullifying the benefit. A P3 (and my P2K), with it's horizontal dropout, allows the rear tire to be as close to the cutout as you want. What is "much better" than a P3, and why?

Cervelo = production made in Taiwan, if that works for you with horizontal dropouts good for you.

[Ken Lehner]

Cervelo = production made in Taiwan, if that works for you with horizontal dropouts good for you.

What's the issue with Taiwan? In any case, Cervelo says my P2K is made in the USA, at least. Can you adjust your rear wheel so that it is sufficiently close to the seat tube to be aerodynamically significant?

[EdK]

Wasn't so much Taiwan it is the "production" aspect that dosen't work for me and you can believe what ever you want about "made in" stickers. I will trade a mm or two of tire gap for ease in changing tires. Clearly a flat in a supported TT or out on the Queen K highway isn't something you are concerned about changing or getting the wheel back in straight "quickly". Although this seems like the begining of a Campy vs. Shimano discussion. Enjoy your Cervelo product not my cup of tea though.

[jerk]

tt frames-
let's not forget that time trialling is not a human powered vehicle contest and triathlon while having different rules as to what constitutes a bicycle still has rules.....that being said within uci rules the fastest time-trial frames are coming from andy walser in switzerland, pinarello in treviso via germany with the montello and trek is wisconsin....the cervelo p3 also deserves mention although the jerk doesn't think it's quite at the level of the other bikes particularly when ridden in a uci legal set-up....the p3's chainstays are so short it really doesn't take too kindly to be ridden slack.....take a look at the csc boys...they all ride their p3's in an effective 78-80 degree seat angle...all of'em are on the nose of the saddle. now tri-geeks like dan empfield will preach the benefits of this but the fact of the matter is none of these guys sat on the noses of their saddles on their old tt bikes....fact is the p3 was designed around a riders weight being positioned further forward than the uci currently allows...believe the jerk it handles like a dog if your sitting on the meat of the saddle.....
the jerk thinks the walser is the best of the time trial bikes currently available....lots of guys buy them out of their own pockets and lots of teams do the same....the jerk actually got one from andy which later went to trek for "r&d" (rip off and duplicate) in wisconsin. the walser uses its own crank and bb assembly which results in a q factor drastically smaller than any other bicycle anywhere...beyond this the rear disc andy uses also utlizes a far narrower 100mm drop-out spacing for improved aerodynamics....it gets techier....andy was the first to produce those straight aero bars we saw ullrich, michael rich, and the gerolsteiner and bianchi teams on last year. this is by far the biggest advance made in time trial technology since aero bars.....basically time trialists have been using technology designed orginally for triathlon where the point of the bike is to put out a steady wattage and keep fresh for the run....triathletes do not as a rule like to recruit fast twitch muscle fiber....they don't need the biggest advantage to aero bars as seen by greg lemond, "additional points of leverage". using a normal visiontech or syntace set up there is really no good way to muscle the bike around in the aerobars...the position is certainly low, aero and efficient for a 110 mile bike ride which precedes a marathon length run, but it doesn't allow that little bit extra of high aerobic/low anerobic effort the proffessional cyclist needs in proloques and individual and team time trials....anyway try the walser position on your current tt bike...sprint wit yout arms where they normall are and then choke up a bit towards the flat part of the clip-on watch the wattage instantly go up with the extra leverage you can exert....but the jerk digresses....beyond the aerobars...walsers are actually the only tt bikes designed in low speed wind tunnels...hence the fact that their down tubes are actually shaped like a flipped around cervelo down tube....in this way air flow is dircted around the riders moving body and around the moving rear wheel rather than getting directed into the rider's legs.....as a result of this design the frontal area of the bicycle is also reduced......
did the jerk mention that andy walser only builds his bikes in two frame sizes but varies the front center measurement depending on saddle height, projected stem length and rider weight? or that andy requires his clients to give him their peak wattage numbers so he can make the bottom bracket as stiff as needed? or howabout that he will recomment 38 cm pursuit bars for just about everyone? (michael rich is the exception)

anyway, that's all the jerk has to say about tt bikes right now....(oh by the way did the jerk ever mention how much he hates time trialling? it's got to be the most boring sporting activity in the world....take this with a grain of salt most (but not all) cyclists who hate time trialling hate it because they aren't very good at it.)

[Too Tall]

Attached is me with a 58cm TT (from 64) and max bar drop on cowhorns w/ syntace and 110 stem (was 110). STA is 74 (moved from 73). Using a non-offset post and cleats neutral with 180s. I think I'm in the ballpark but am wigged out by losing 6cm TT. I have no ego left to crush so fire away. Jerk, the TT position you dig is doable if I open my forearm / bicep angle even more and drop the TT 1 - 2 CM? Agreed, SRM proves what you say on my bike. Atsafact.

[Dr. Doofus]

Looking at Too Tall, one thing about the jerks explanation: as a track coach, I compare Too Tall or Jan or LA on tri bars to a sprinter halfway out of the blocks...humerus in the vacinity of a 45 degree angle and hips rotated forward enable the athlete to stabilize his or her torso, using the shoulders and back for leverage to get more out of the quad/glute complex...also think of using one of those reverse-leg press (the track sprinter's special) machines at the gym...same concept....

This won't work for a tri-geek because the shoulder/back are tired from the swim, and you need those for leverage when you run (for the runners among us, the Oztrack site has a good general intro on the role of the upper body and core in running...its more than you'd think)...so the tri geek stretches out, loses some power, but as the jerk notes, allows some leverage points to recover....



The doc quit doing TTs over ten years ago, even though they're his favorite race (blame it on a distance swimming background)...eight years in grad school didn't help in the buying of wheels, bars, frames, etc....so even with some sponsor help, the doc got priced out of the TT wars.... In an ideal world, all TTs would be done on drop-bar fixed gears....

[Too Tall]

You are too cool Dr. Last yr. I built a fix gear TT bike JUST for that purpose, maybe I should have looked in my closet first.

I just got off the phone with the fitter from last weeks camp and he thinks I'm off base a bit. He's saying to start with my road ST angle...set the seat 5 cm behind the BB...adjust the height...get my hands level to a hair below the crease in my elbow (inside) and try an ITM adjustable stem or a look ergo stem and get lower lower lower....he says my thigh/torso angle is OK. Also says I'm (cough) gifted with a real long humerous and if he had the time and grinder he'd get me lower ;)

...But I like time trials. No brain no pain.

[zap]

Foregot the sunscreen last week :no:

You're getting there. Another inch or so. But with all this advice you're getting we'll have to work harder on the flats now too :rolleyes:

Boy that fitter really wants you to move forward. Saddle 5cm back must put you're knees in line with the stem.

[Roy E. Munson]

Not sure if it is any good but if you checkout www.theprosstuff.com there is a 61st 61tt Litespeed blade frame for sale for $800.
It has been there a while so I bet you could get it for a lot less.

It is worth a look at the site anyways to see some of the stuff the Pros try to sell, leaders (winners) jerseys, skinsuits, shorts, socks etc.

[Too Tall]

Thanks Roy but it's sold.

Coach looked at the picture and laughed and I quote "If you want to go for it, get a REAL TT bike and quit fooling around you need to get alot lower and forward". Oy. This obviously a longer term project that I thought.