how does a brand new Firefly end up on the chopping block?

[AngryScientist]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Firefly-Titanium-All-Road-Gravel-Frameset-Size-55/152393706499?_trksid=p2047675.c100010.m2109&_trkparms=aid%3D555012%26algo%3DPW.MBE%26ao%3D2%26 asc%3D20131231084308%26meid%3De9049fbb0543446e8628 d809a28b8751%26pid%3D100010%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26s d%3D172499277375

maybe a good opportunity for someone who is in the market.

baffles me how a bike like this gets built but never followed through on. stuff happens i guess.

[huck*this]

Me thinks the wait kills people and they end up getting something in the interim.

[MattTuck]

I went through a divorce while Kirk was being built. Going through that, and then coming up with $4K or more was pretty difficult for me, given I was trying to get my life back together.

It ended up being ok, and I didn't have to sell the bike, but I was within a few thousand dollars of being in some trouble. Stuff can happen, even to folks that can reasonably afford a custom bike at the outset, that makes a custom bike seem completely ridiculous.

This seems like someone trying to recoup some of their costs after their situation changed.

[simonov]

Possibly the situation changed. And some people enjoy being in queues more than they enjoy riding bikes. No big deal. I'd rank my Firefly among the best bikes I've ever had so I'd probably recommend this person give the bike a shot before offloading it, but to each his own.

[Ed-B]

I think this could be the answer:

"With the features added to this frame, the original price for this frameset was almost $7,000."

During the year long wait somebody might have second thoughts...

[Tony T]

Price seems high. Says he paid $7k for frame
What he's asking is more than what I paid for a road FF frame 5 years ago.
Has the price increased that much already?

[tuscanyswe]

Price seems high. Says he paid $7k for frame
What he's asking is more than what I paid for a road FF frame 5 years ago.
Has the price increased that much already?

stem seatpost headset fork ? Those aint cheap.
Bit of anodizing perhaps and a bit of price increase and voila?

[11.4]

Overpriced. A stem that may not fit. A seat post that may not fit. Only of interest to Di2 players. Rather a long geometry. A nice fork but the market really seems to like the Enve counterpart more. Just an idiosyncratic bike that's seriously overpriced here. It fits me for a gravel bike. I'd possibly buy it for $3500 max. But considering that I can get one for about $5300 with the relevant options and can pay for a fast delivery, and then get it precisely like I want it? It shouldn't be worth more than $3k.

[Tony T]

stem seatpost headset fork ? Those aint cheap.
Bit of anodizing perhaps and a bit of price increase and voila?

My purchase (5 years ago) included fork & seatpost (not stem) and was less than his asking price (and a lot less than the $7k he says he paid).

…but then again, I haven't priced a FF recently.

[jtbadge]

Full geometry chart to much to ask at that price?

[sales guy]

Well, if you look at me, I have a brand new $16,000 bike and I'll never be able to ride it! Would I sell it, possibly. But since I use it for shows and stuff, it'll probably stay in the office/showroom and be a prop.

Same goes for my Cyfac. Brand new and just hanging up. Had it for years and never ridden. Partly cause I had other bikes. Partly cause I was too busy and then the surgery and I can't ride anyways.

Stuff happens.

[tuscanyswe]

My purchase (5 years ago) included fork & seatpost (not stem) and was less than his asking price (and a lot less than the $7k he says he paid).

…but then again, I haven't priced a FF recently.

Agree it sounds a lot, Im just speculating.

[sales guy]

and by the way this is a shop selling it. It's the Fit Werx location in Jersey. I've been to that shop. It's nice. Small but has nice bikes.

[happycampyer]

Based on Firefly's pricing, I come up with a price for everything of $6,080. Maybe I missed something.

Frameset................4,650
Internal Di2...............200
Intrnal Brake Routing..350
Parlee Fork................100
Stem........................350
Seatpost...................300
Pump Peg.....................0
Seatpost Clamp.............0
Fender Mounts..............0
Headset....................130

.............................6,080

$4,700 might be a push, but I wouldn't call it seriously overpriced. In terms of aesthetics and craft, there are very few builders in Firefly's league.* This frame appears to come with the original warranty. Yes, it's a niche, but there's a year + wait for these frames (and the Firefly guys are cranking, just watch their photo feeds).

As to why a frame like this hits the block, I can think of a dozen reasons.

* Although the aesthetics are completely different, I put Firefly in the same league as J.P. Weigle and few others.

[simonov]

and by the way this is a shop selling it. It's the Fit Werx location in Jersey. I've been to that shop. It's nice. Small but has nice bikes.

Well that explains it. Possibly they got stiffed by a customer. Or it was a display bike that they're moving. And the $7k price may be some added markup, details that we're not seeing the photos, or maybe eBay seller descriptions aren't exactly precise.

[happycampyer]

Yeah, I forgot the Syntace thru axles, which are probably $80 or so for the pair, and maybe there is a charge for the anodizing. So closer to say $6,300. Not quite "almost $7K," but the custom doo-dads add up.

To Tony T, a standard ti road frame and fork is currently $4,200 and the seatpost is $300, so unless you got some extras (internal routing, etc.), what you got 5 years ago would still be less than the ebay seller's asking price for the package.

[oldpotatoe]

stem seatpost headset fork ? Those aint cheap.
Bit of anodizing perhaps and a bit of price increase and voila?

Even with all that I think a 'comparable' ti frame would be about $2000 or so less. And delivered 9-10 months faster. :cool:

[buddybikes]

true - but isn't same as comparing Sachs. Vanilla, Baum etc? FF has a niche of the flawless welds, well designed frame (this doesn't apply as after market), and personalization (also doesn't apply here).

I was number 3 of their carbon/ti - had some beautiful custom anoziding (flowers, more intricate than normal) perhaps because it was so early in build of these, didn't charge me for this extra. When did they begin the upcharges?

[Mikej]

I love firefly bikes- but man is Ti custom a bad investment-when you try to sell- I'm a multiple owner of custom Ti frames- I'd say the price is about a little high, but you have to start somewhere. Now compared ro a 2013 Moots on eBay at 3000, I'd say it's a killer deal for 4700.

[Tony T]

Based on Firefly's pricing, I come up with a price for everything of $6,080. Maybe I missed something.

$4,700 might be a push, but I wouldn't call it seriously overpriced. In terms of aesthetics and craft, there are very few builders in Firefly's league.* This frame appears to come with the original warranty. Yes, it's a niche, but there's a year + wait for these frames (and the Firefly guys are cranking, just watch their photo feeds).


For a frame built to your fitting and geometry, yes, but better to spend the extra grand and wait a year than to buy a custom frame built for someone else. (And there are options on this frame not needed for a gravelbike.)
(Glad I got my FF 5 years ago :))

[Tony T]

Well that explains it. Possibly they got stiffed by a customer. Or it was a display bike that they're moving. And the $7k price may be some added markup, details that we're not seeing the photos, or maybe eBay seller descriptions aren't exactly precise.

As said already, the seller could have at least have posted the geometry.
Firefly sent the buyer a nice build drawing with all measurements — the ebay seller should post it in the ad.

edit: Took another look and the seller updated to list the geometry (or maybe I missed it the 1st time I looked):
Frame Geometry:
Top Tube (Effective): 55 cm
Head Tube: 12.5 cm
Seat Tube: 48cm (center to center)
Fork Span: 39.3 cm's
Rake: 5 cm
Chainstay Length 43cm

[happycampyer]

Even with all that I think a 'comparable' ti frame would be about $2000 or so less. And delivered 9-10 months faster. :cool:"Comparable" is a tricky thing, but for sake of comparison, I would say that a Firefly road frame is roughly "comparable" to a Moots RSL, in terms of design, manufacturing complexity, etc. My RSL (which I no longer own), was $4,200 in 2010, iirc, and looking at Wrench Science they now appear to go for $5,069. Yes, there's a dealer markup in Moots' prices, but still, $4,200 for a road race ti frame with butted tubes and flawless welds and manufacturing compares favorably to Moots. And in the used market, Moots is the gold standard--in my experience Moots hold their value better than pretty much anything, in pretty much any material. Normally, it's a fact of life that if one orders a custom ti frame, one takes a relative beating in the secondary market (and the more custom, the more the beating). From what I've seen, Fireflys are one of the rare exceptions in the custom space.

My bet is that the seller gets a price with a 4 handle on it. Maybe not $4.7K, but in the words of the seller, "almost $4.7K."

[ultraman6970]

Naive questions, from start to finish how long it takes to build one of those frames???

[sales guy]

Naive questions, from start to finish how long it takes to build one of those frames???


For most builders, it's about 3 to 4 months. My guys are getting them done in 80-90 days for custom geometry and custom finishes. Stock geometry and stock finishes are about 30 days from start to delivery.

The only reasons why things would take 9-10 months, if the customer changes their mind, constantly. If they did not finalize things. Meaning they started the process on Jan 1, put it to order on June 1 and delivered on Sept 1. And this can happen. Or the last reason, there is a problem or delay with the builders. Which is a very small chance. Builders only get business if they turn out a good, consistent AND timely product. Yes, some suck. Most follow the plan I said.

[happycampyer]

For most builders, it's about 3 to 4 months. My guys are getting them done in 80-90 days for custom geometry and custom finishes. Stock geometry and stock finishes are about 30 days from start to delivery.

The only reasons why things would take 9-10 months, if the customer changes their mind, constantly. If they did not finalize things. Meaning they started the process on Jan 1, put it to order on June 1 and delivered on Sept 1. And this can happen. Or the last reason, there is a problem or delay with the builders. Which is a very small chance. Builders only get business if they turn out a good, consistent AND timely product. Yes, some suck. Most follow the plan I said.This may be true for some builders, but it is just not the case for Firefly. There were originally 3 people at Firefly, and now there are 4. The labor is generally divided up as follows: client facing, frame/geo design work; machining; welding; and finishing. Woven into that are the custom finish design and anodizing; photography (LOTS of photography); and assembly. Fwii, while people can fill multiple roles, most of the time there's one person specializing in each of the major tasks.

Again, fwii, Firefly's output is around 3 frames per week, so call it 150-ish frames a year. Obviously, some frames are more complicated than others (either in terms of manufacturing, finishing, or both), so some take longer to make than others. The reason for the 1-year estimated delivery time is that they have a queue of over 100 orders (but probably less than 150 orders), so they have to forecast how long it's going to take to get to the most recent order that just came in.

Unless the customer is one of those customers, I doubt that they are spending 9-10 months getting any single order out the door. In my case, I placed my deposit in late August or early September 2014, and got a call in July 2015 letting me know that my frame was coming up in the queue. From the time of that call to the delivery of the frame, I would say it was three weeks to a month, tops. Of course, some will take longer, such as the super complicated anodizing jobs, frames that are sent out to paint, etc.

As a testament to how popular Firefly is, every year the folks at the Franklin Land Trust hold a raffle, with the grand prize being a custom frame from a well-respected builder. Last year, the frame was a Firefly all-road ti, and the raffle raised more money than all of the prior raffles combined. Firefly has offered another all-road ti frame for this year's raffle. It will be interesting to see the demand for the raffle the year after Firefly.

[sales guy]

This may be true for some builders, but it is just not the case for Firefly. There were originally 3 people at Firefly, and now there are 4. The labor is generally divided up as follows: client facing, frame/geo design work; machining; welding; and finishing. Woven into that are the custom finish design and anodizing; photography (LOTS of photography); and assembly. Fwii, while people can fill multiple roles, most of the time there's one person specializing in each of the major tasks.

Again, fwii, Firefly's output is around 3 frames per week, so call it 150-ish frames a year. Obviously, some frames are more complicated than others (either in terms of manufacturing, finishing, or both), so some take longer to make than others. The reason for the 1-year estimated delivery time is that they have a queue of over 100 orders (but probably less than 150 orders), so they have to forecast how long it's going to take to get to the most recent order that just came in.

Unless the customer is one of those customers, I doubt that they are spending 9-10 months getting any single order out the door. In my case, I placed my deposit in late August or early September 2014, and got a call in July 2015 letting me know that my frame was coming up in the queue. From the time of that call to the delivery of the frame, I would say it was three weeks to a month, tops. Of course, some will take longer, such as the super complicated anodizing jobs, frames that are sent out to paint, etc.


I don't know how Firefly works other than what they've said in the book we did. I am going off what people have done to me. I had a guy who changed his mind on the geometry and finish over a dozen times each. From start to finish for his it was Sept to End of Jan. So 5 months. Normally it's 3. But he was changing things constantly and it delayed everything. He knew that every time he changed his mind it delayed things. He just took delivery on Saturday and he loves it.

Like I said, I don't know what Fireflys timing or whatever is when it comes to frames. I can only state from other customs and what we do as a company.

[happycampyer]

Got it. My point is, their wait time is how far off they expect to start work on a frame. If a customer takes 9 months to sort out his or her order (changing spec on geo, finish, etc.), then final delivery for that guy/gal is pushing 21 months.

This is based on my experience and that of about a dozen others I know who have gone through the proces.

[simonov]

Got it. My point is, their wait time is how far off they expect to start work on a frame. If a customer takes 9 months to sort out his or her order (changing spec on geo, finish, etc.), then final delivery for that guy/gal is pushing 21 months.

This is based on my experience and that of about a dozen others I know who have gone through the proces.

FWIW, Firefly delivered my bike within weeks of the target and that was with some parts availability challenges (based on me selecting some not yet on the market at the time of order gear) and a few rounds of discussion on geometry and finish details. The whole process was as smooth as could be hoped for; probably better than I could have hoped given my experience with all prior builders. And the final product is the nicest bike I've ever had. Considering how far out their queue extends, I was pretty impressed with their ability to deliver on time.

Edit: And I should note given my comment above about exceeding my expectations with other builders...I've never had a bad experience and have worked with some of the top guys in the business. I'd order another bike from any one of them and in one case already have. Firefly just has the operation dialed.

[sales guy]

Got it. My point is, their wait time is how far off they expect to start work on a frame. If a customer takes 9 months to sort out his or her order (changing spec on geo, finish, etc.), then final delivery for that guy/gal is pushing 21 months.

This is based on my experience and that of about a dozen others I know who have gone through the proces.


I get what you're saying. For us, it's 90 days from the date we put the order in till delivery. For others, yeah, they have a different schedule. I get it that theirs may be different. And yeah, materials can be an issue. Like right now, XCR Tubing, Columbus won't have any till Mid to End of March. So anything XCR is delayed. We were going to do something special for the Reynolds booth and now we are going to use a different bike. It is what it is. But yeah, I get your points.

[Mikej]

What bike does sales guy make?

[adrien]

I've got three custom bikes, and one of them is a Firefly. I also am close friends with a high-end shop owner who has worked with dozens of the biggest builders (Vanilla, Peg, Breadwinner, FF, Mosaic, Geekhouse...). Firefly's reputation -- and my personal experience -- is that not only are the bikes at the very top of their game, but the team is bar none the most professional in the bike world. Nice, friendly, they "get" bikes and also are very communicative. My bike actually showed up early. Combined with the jaw-dropping workmanship, all this makes a custom bike from them something very special indeed. Two years into my ownership it's still the best pure road bike I've ever swung a leg over, and in terms of what I wanted, they nailed it. It also gets a lot of attention from folks who know what it is, and they tend to start conversations. Indeed, I was happy to give the FF team an endorsement.

Hard to tell, but the bike on eBay may have the oversized HT and chain stays (mine has both). Can't recall whether those are an up charge or not.

The problem may be that this one seems more customized. The geo is long and more compact than many, the di2-only is a little fussy in a world where e-tap exists (nothing wrong with it, just really limits the folks wanting it), and as mentioned above the fork limits it, too. So this is a top-notch bike built to a very specific spec, which may have a market of 20...and the question is how many of those folks see this and want it, rather than waiting and getting their own. And for a bike-shop seller with a high price tag, the photos don't do it any favors.

[vqdriver]

i've had two custom frames, taylor and now a geekhouse.
the taylor i took delivery of and rode it for a bit, but after all the drama and delays, i just never really got invested in it.
the geekhouse is another story. marty was easy going and very professional. but right about the time i finally took delivery i broke my wrist and it just hasn't been used for its intended purpose. i'm waffling between keeping it and selling it as it seems it'll be years before i can realistically enjoy it. until then, it's a garage queen.

these custom deals are both a money and time investment. depending on each person, their relative cost can be a pittance to some or a grail bike to others. each person has their own reasons for buying or selling these things.

[R3awak3n]

well, there is a make an offer on the firefly so obviously the guy is entertaining offers. I bet he would take a bit less when it sits on ebay and doesnt sell.

I don't necessarily think its overpriced if it fits but its going to be tough to find someone with exactly or close measurements and even tougher to find someone that wants to pay $4k plus for a bit that is not 100% perfect fit. However it is worth listing, some people don't want to wait (specially a year, thats a looooong time) and have enough money to give it a try and with a different stem/seatpost can make it work.


Lets be honest, its a TI bike, a stock moots is almost $4k. For a bit more and if you can make it fit you now have a firefly which is a much cooler bike, you also have a TI seatpost and a stem which if you buy moots would put you pretty close to this. Not to mention the cool annodizing. Its not as bad of a deal as you guys make it be

[Tony T]

Isn't the anodizing only the "i" in Firefly?
It might not be overpriced, but it's not a deal either.
For me, if I were going to spend that much on a frame I'd rather spend the xtra $ and wait a year and get one built to my specs.
And, for me, I'd look to spend less for a gravelbike than a road bike (as it wouldn't be my main ride).

[pdmtong]

For me, if I were going to spend that much on a frame I'd rather spend the xtra $ and wait a year and get one built to my specs.
This is EXACTLY the ongoing challenge selling any custom frame.

If you want top dollar - wait to find the person who is the exact fit and knows it. Might show up today, might never show up.

If you want it gone, the price has to be enough of a perceived deal to attract anyone curious or on the fence to send funds. Yes, you don't get your ask, but you get it gone.

BTW when Happy declared the FF fabrication excellence on par with JPW...that is really saying something.

[sandyrs]

Jeez did he not even include the seat angle? Top tube length is useless without it.

[Tony T]

Firefly provides (or at least they did) a nice drawing with all the measurements and angles — the seller should post it.

[happycampyer]

aaaaaaand... SOLD!

reminds me of this scene from Good Will Hunting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcZPWkNY6x8

[thegunner]

FWIW the wait for an FF right now is about 14 months :( so... longer than a year

[EPIC! Stratton]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Firefly-Titanium-All-Road-Gravel-Frameset-Size-55/152393706499?_trksid=p2047675.c100010.m2109&_trkparms=aid%3D555012%26algo%3DPW.MBE%26ao%3D2%26 asc%3D20131231084308%26meid%3De9049fbb0543446e8628 d809a28b8751%26pid%3D100010%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26s d%3D172499277375

maybe a good opportunity for someone who is in the market.

baffles me how a bike like this gets built but never followed through on. stuff happens i guess.

Kids? Marriage? Moving? Lots of reasons. That said, definitely stinks that someone had to part with such a lovely bike.