mt washington has really gotten inside my head

[Climb01742]

a few datapoints:

1. my last ride in italy. curious about where a road led, i went down it. then it went up and up. 3km of MW-esque verticality. and all the unpleasantness of climbing that kind of grade came back. and one question kept nagging at me: why am i putting myself through this?

2. about a month ago riding up okemo in vermont: the same question hit me: why? unlike italy, i stopped part way up. then i rode 3 hours, much of it on inclines up to 10%. much like what i'd ridden 99% of the time in italy. which i dig. they are challenging_and_fun. beyond 10% and it's just a slog. i now call that the 10% solution.

3. each time my PT starts digging deep into my scarred muscle tissue. parts of my legs are pretty darn messed up. the tab from 40 years of running and riding.

contrast those with: yesterday i rode the fast big ring interval i've ever done. (for me) i was flying and it was nearly effortless. i'm in better shape than last year. i have a year of learning. i've made most of the MW mistakes possible. physically i feel as ready as i can be.

but mentally?

what has gotten inside my head is: what is my ROI on 90-120 minutes of suffering? i don't mind failing on the mountain. what i can't let go of though is the idea of quitting. when i got to the top of that climb in italy, i didn't feel satisfaction or happiness. just relief. my guess is that's how MW will feel.

something i love doing -- climbing -- has become a burden. i love 90% of my training rides. i love the discipline, the commitment, the progress, living the life. but damn that race on the end of it.

my head is in a weird place now. if i start asking myself "why" on the rockpile, i'm in deep dodo. i've got to find a mental place where it becomes just about the moment, just two hours of finding a pace, a way to turn my training into turning the pedals.

ROI on suffering is a strange nugget to ponder. right now it just feels like the last thing i have to prove to myself is that i didn't quit. maybe 2 1/2 years of training like this has just worn me down. i hope i can find a mental place that helps me just pull out the work i've done, physically, and leave my mind behind for 2 hours. right now i'm just tired. and not making much sense. sorry but i just had to write this down, get some part of it out of my system.

[Len J]

sounds to me like you are tired of training and may be forgetting why you are doing this.

If I remember, you got into this because you wnated to see what happened if you totally dedicated yourself to something, no holds barred. It seems to me that you've done this so far. In addition, it's clear from your posts that the journey (what you've learned) has been worth the effort so far.

Don't give up now.........you are so close. Don't put yourself in the "I wonder what would have happened if....?" Mode.

Relax man...just your best.

Len

[stevep]

thinking about it is a disadvantage. of that i am certain. you are in it? just do it and get on with it.
i, for one,
am unilkely to ever do it again...although i love the big climbs in europe.
it is a deathly slog for me and 200 yards in i remember the fatal thought..."why?"
the big climbs in europe are rideable...this thing is not rideable in any sense to me

[David Kirk]

Not that you've asked for my advice but I'm really good at giving unsolicited advice....

Take a few days or week off the bike. Read a book....sit in the park and watch people. Play Monopoly....whatever. You'll lose so little fitness as to be a non issue but you'll have a clearer head. It's actually good for you to not ride all the time.

It's very easy to get in deep enough that you lose perspective.

Been there.

Dave

[jeffg]

I understand the feeling of suffering without return when you have a bad day or are having one.

I have called my wife to tell her to come looking for me if I don't call in a few hours since I am delerious somewhere on the side of the road and have one mother climb to go at 10%+ before getting back to the car. I honestly thought about quitting up the Grossglockner last week the first time.

I am glad I didn't quit though and both those rides are highlights for me. Knowing what you are in for and just going for it is the key. Having the right gear is crucial as well. If over 10% is a barrier, are you sure you have the right gear? Are you pacing yourself correctly?

The best advice, though, is to chill. Take some time out. A few intense efforts will keep you primed and otherwise just get rest and eat well. Enjoy your family. You are ready. When race day comes you will surprise yourself perhaps, but not us. We are pulling for you!

[dauwhe]

Climbs like that are a strange thing. I was signed up for Newton's Revenge in July, but as my focus has been on the brevets, I was unable to do any specific training. The week before my 600k, I went out to Ascutney, but just pulled over after a mile. It was too hot and I just didn't want to do it! I ended up not riding Mt. Washington at all. And I didn't feel much like riding at all after the 600k; it took a month of taking it easy (and a much cooler day) before I regained my enthusiasm.

I've been up Okemo and Ascutney a few times in the last few years, and enjoyed it (well, you know what I mean). But when it became something I HAD to do, it was no fun at all.

I've done a lot of very committing rides this year, but there is nothing quite like those multi-mile 11-12%+ grades. In almost every other kind of cycling, you can relax for a moment now and then--even doing a time trial or something you could ease off for a few seconds (you might lose, of course). But on those climbs you know that every second will be hard, and that easing off (even for a single pedal stroke) might mean falling down, and not being able to start up again. I find that quite difficult psychologically. It's a far more concentrated form of attention and effort than is required even on a 400k or 600k ride.

I'll probably go up Ascutney later this year, sometime when it's cool and I just feel like it. If I'm smart, I won't even time myself. If I'm in the right mood, it will be a really good experience. If not, I hope I'll just turn around and go ride somewhere else, or go read that book and have a soda! And I'll probably sign up for Mt. Washington some time in the future, but for now I've decided that randonneuring is my priority, and what I enjoy.


Dave

[Ti Designs]

I've had rocks in my head my whole life but never a whole mountain! Try tipping your head to one side and hitting it a few times, that always works when I get water in my ears. If you get Mt Washington out of your head you'll be a lot lighter and you'll climb better!

[ergott]

Slap a patch on the gouch and go!




Seriously, I know what your talking about. You just have to remember what it is like at the top. Serene.

[fiamme red]

You just have to remember what it is like at the top. Serene.With 150 mph winds.

[Ray]

After all you suffered through last year, you decided to come back and do it again. You've put in a lot of work and the ride is almost here. You'd be ticked at yourself if you didn't do it. So do it. But perhaps resolve not to do anything this stupid again anytime soon (assuming you feel the same way after the ride).

Although I'm not a climber in your league, I too find that climbing anything over about 10% isn't much fun except for really short sections of steeper stuff. I used to sort of seek those climbs out because I wanted the challenge (although nothing as steep AND long as MW). Having done a few, I realized that with the right gearing, I could survive them, but I didn't ever see myself getting to a place where I'd enjoy them. So I just stopped looking for them. Now if I come across one or two on a tour or a century, I ride it and know I'll get through it, but I don't go out of my way to look for stuff I know I'm just going to suffer through and survive. I did a tour in the San Juan mountains a couple of years ago that had TONS of climbing. Almost all of it was fun. But there was one climb that was Mt. Washington steep, all unpaved, and better than half the distance (John Brown Canyon, for those who know the area). I survived it but didn't enjoy it except that it was part of an otherwise great tour.

If at some point in the future, you decide you want to try it again, go for it. But it sounds like you need a break and if you decide NOW to give yourself one as soon as the ride is over, it may help you get through it.

Good luck,

-Ray

[Fixed]

Going Out Of My Head

Well I think I'm going out of my head
Yes I think I'm going out of my head over you, over you
I want you to want me I need you so badly
I can't think of anything but you yeah
And I think I'm going out of my head
Cause I can't explain these tears that I shed
Baby over you over you
I see you each morning
But you just walk past me
You don't even notice I exist


cheers

[shinomaster]

Climbo...I like to climb to, especially when I am climbing faster than other people and dropping them. When they are killing me like last night, when the tri-guy killed me, it's not fun at all..and I question why I ride so hard. I think it is a normal question to ask when you are in pain. I asked myself the same question during every cyclocross race I did last fall.
Maybe you should get a triple crank. And before you feel insulted I'll tell you why. My brother has a nice 16lb scott cr1, and he climbs really well on it. When my dad was here he let my dad ride it, and he rode his wife's bike, a Bianchi Virata with and ultegra triple. It's a nice bike. He could just spin along in the granny gear while I churned along in my 39. He was really impressed. We decided that it was a pretty amazing gear as long as you could get rid of the stigma. You wouldn't need it most of the time but when you find yourself riding up a 10 mile long mountain pass it would be really nice to have. I've concidered puiing a compact crank on one of my bikes for climbing. I'm sure when I'm older and my knees arn't so good I'll have a triple.

[Ginger]

So...Mt. Washington is interfering with your life, eh James?
Priorities have shifted?
You don't *need* to do it anymore?

ROI is being able to move on. Even if you're sure you're ready to anyhow, you have to do the ride to be sure it won't haunt you down the way.

I agree with everyone else about taking the time off beforehand, you're ready, it'll be fine.

But do the ride and do your best.



Revel in it because it's the last time you'll ever do it. The last time you'll ever need to do it.

[stevep]

Climbo...I like to climb to, especially when I am climbing faster than other people and dropping them. .

mt washington is not just a climb. it is a wretched, miserable, outrageously horrible experience. i did it one time. 60 mph wind. heavy mist...riders blown off bikes who were unable to remount and get going again...
one genius ( concerned with aerodynamics ) rode spinergy carbon wheels and blew off the road into the ditch... i laughed so hard it carried me for 10 feet ( about 5 minutes ).
it is so outrageous that it is laughable.
laugh, climb, laugh. it will be over pretty soon and you can talk shiite about it.
i used a 22-23 and kept searching for a 25... moaning all the while.
note, however, that there are people who live for this ride ( to call it a race may be an exaggeration ) and who mistakenly compare it to other hillclimbs. does not compare even a little.

[JohnS]

I wonder if it isn't something deeper that's bothering you. You had a post a few months ago where you listed every bike you've bought in the last five years, trying to find the "perfect" one. Are you running away from, and trying to avoid middle age? You seem to keep trying to push yourself to do things that you did when you were younger. Maybe you just need to slow down and enjoy the "ride" for what it is...just a thought...

[shinomaster]

No climb if you got some of those Hyperon tubulars you would make it in half of the time...

[chrisroph]

Take a little time off the bike or, alternatively, just ride for the joy of it. Don't consider it training. Look inside yourself and ask yourself why you are committed to again doing MW. Is it because you really want to do it again? Is it to make up for what you consider to be last year's failure?

I certainly on several occasions have been in the place where I have been riding--actually training--to attempt to achieve some goal that my heart has abandoned but my head would not let my body abandon. As a result, the race that was the goal ended up being a hollow experience despite objective measures of success, such as a gold medal or a pr. However, afterwards, on one occasion, I was so disenchanted that I hung the bike up for several years.

Make sure you are riding for the right reasons, whatever those are. They are different for all of us. I am riding now for the joy of it, for the health benefits, for the friendships, for the wind.

[72gmc]

send your race bike to the shop for a final tune up, and tell them to take their time. ride a coffee cruiser only, and only ride for coffee and/or the local park with a book. or start a personal and engrossing project that will result in a heartfelt gift to your sweetie. your head will tune itself up if you let it.

[shinomaster]

Hey chrisroph...you wanna ride tomorrow?

[gdw]

I'm with David Kirk on this one. You're physically ready so ease off the training and recharge your batteries. Get your head straight. You need to start viewing the race in a more positive light. Stop dwelling on the negatives and relax. You survived your first attempt at the mountain and are smarter and better prepared this year. Read a good book. Mawson's Will by Lennard Bickel or The Long Walk by S. Rawics are classics and will put your ordeal into perspective. You're only on the bike for an hour and half, plus or minus, and the experience isn't going to kill you. You signed up and paid your money so rise to the challenge.

[1centaur]

I'm actually with JohnS on this one. My first reaction was that to say you never really want to grind over 10% again may be like saying good bye to your youth, stretched as it is, and start rolling down the other side of life's mountain. I doubt, however, that giving up Mt. Washington really qualifies. I think you've been interested in more bikes since you chucked the last lot, and I know you've got lots of great cycling ahead of you that qualifies as youthful activity.

But I do think you are correct that ROI on Mt. Washington Part Deux is very low. You've done it, you know you can do it, and to do it again is mostly just going to be unpleasant. If the weather cooperates and you're 5 minutes faster, will that be worth the effort, or will you be better elsewhere? No. You are never going to try to be FAST up MW, so why do it repeatedly? Go for other challenges - the world's full of mountains that are famous and/or beautiful. Would you get more from MW Part Trois or Banff?

Do it this time to honor your training, and do it for the zen of it - can your mind go elsewhere now you don't wonder if you can make it? That's a goal worth achieving because that skill can be used repeatedly. Don't do it again. Pick another goal. Life's too short.

[chrisroph]

Hey chrisroph...you wanna ride tomorrow?


got the stomach flu today, should be good tomorrow. Sure, you want to swing by my place at 6?

[93legendti]

[QUOTE=Climb01742]...what is my ROI on 90-120 minutes of suffering? i don't mind failing on the mountain. what i can't let go of though is the idea of quitting. when i got to the top of that climb in italy, i didn't feel satisfaction or happiness...QUOTE]

Climb, this is a very interesting thread. Somewhere around April, I decided to stop "complaining" to my wife about my ride if something happened--i.e. not fast enough, not hard enough, lousy group riding dynamics, cars, etc. I realized that it was pretty selfish for her to be taking care of 1 of our kids (a babysitter is with the other) while I was out free of responsibility for 2-3 hours riding. So when she asks me how my ride was, I ALWAYS say "good". And you know what? It is the truth. Unless you crash, my view is every ride is a good ride. So why not view MW as a ride, not a race? View it as just chance to be free and enjoying riding. If it is not enjoyable, don't do it.

ROI? For me it would be the effort and the completion of the ride. Every time I feel 10% of what you are describing I take time off 'till I want to ride again.

[shoe]

hey climb i have no advice for you but it reminded me of being in hawaii (the big island) this winter. i was loosely in shape and i don't really climb much here as it is mostly flat. so i had rented a bike(thank goodness for triples) to ride for a few days and it was my first ride out. started to rain and just headed out the highway.to leave behind the snow and cold of back east warm rain was welcome.more rolling well layed out stuff and dropped down to the coast for a bit and had a couple miles to climb back up...rolled back ten or so miles until i came to the development i was staying in. rain had stopped and as i start the 4 mile climb back to where i am staying i realize now that it is dark and there are no street lights and few houses. the sky is calm and the air is warm and moist . and i think how amazing this is to be climbing in almost pitch black. it is just you and the bike. but as i get in it just gets harder and harder. i wonder where i am supposed to make my turns. i breathe heavy and think how this is some of the hardest climbing i have ever done. i don't know how many feet or what grade. it is just one slow pedal stroke after the other. occasionally lighting would just light up the whole place. it being so dark it was like a bright flash. for a second everything seemed alive...but then in a flash the darkness ensued . black slow pedal strokes. i try to realize i still have a ways to go. just find my breathe find my rhythm. it was at this time i thought about your stories of training for mw and then riding it. i put myself inside a strangers mind. to me that night i was climbing mt washington in the dark . determined to get to the top . thinking about your stories . imagining the things you must have been thinking about while finding your way through the climb with just the desire to put the one pedal after the other. it was disgust of what the climb was doing to me but then the excitement of the ground gained stroke by stroke. it was a climb that kicked my *** but a climb that felt so good once it was over. it makes you wonder why we do this. it makes me wonder when people are doing even harder climbs for longer periods as to what pushes them. the drive the satisfaction. anyway thanks for sharing your stories and i thought i would reciprocate by sharing one of my climbing stories with you. it was no mw but it seemed like it that night....and happy climbing....dave

[jeffg]

At least I believe this is not a mid-life crisis issue.

Cycling can be brutally hard if you push yourself to the limit. The mental aspect is very real. Ask any PBP finisher. I end up often in a tough DC wondering if I can make it over the next climb (and the one after that) given how I am feeling and sometimes wondering if it is worth it. But it is always worthwhile and I have never DNF'd a ride.

BTW, neither has Climb, and I don't expect him to start now.

As for how well he can do, who knows? I took 2 hours off my first time on the Terrible Two, 1 hour of my first Dolomite Marathon in about a year's time. I believe 1:15 is not out of the realm of possibility for Climb on MW and that would be a heck of an accomplishment, as would 1:30 or just staying upright and doing his best.

Do what I did before La Ventoux, Climb-0. Have a glass of red, sit with your family, and look forward to the ride ... I remember watching Paul Sherwyn talk about the fear of climbing Ventoux, but I just couldn't wait. Amateurs and hacks have the luxury looking forward to a climb since we don't live the inhuman existence of a pro cyclist and get to push ourselves for fun, on our own terms. Remember that :banana:

[slowgoing]

It's like these guys I know who sit down and write down the pros and cons of continuing to see the woman they're dating - if you get to a point where you're even doing a ROI evaluation, you know it's not the right thing for you.

Life is short, so enjoy.

[Tom]

I think you're ready. I used to have the same kinds of thoughts before marathons, usually when I physically peaked and my mind hadn't caught up. I think what people are saying about taking a little rest time and allowing your mind to clear out is right. Sometimes the static gets in the way of what you're trying to hear.

[david]

i, too, agree with mr. kirk.
when my mind wanders and i start wondering if i really like riding a bike, then i know i'm just a little burnt.
i force myself to walk away until i get the urge again.
usually takes a week, two at most.
now that i'm approaching 50, i find that i'm more vulnerable to overtraining.
in other words, i can't tolerate as much as i used to. body says enough, mind says this isn't fun anymore.
from what i can tell you've been working your tail off for over a year. cool out for a little while. you'll come back feeling a little stale, but mentally better than ever. and after a ride or two, you'll feel stronger.
as for washington, i did it for the first time this year - newtons's revenge.
i was intrigued by your story from last year. since there's almost nothing like it, i approached it more as an adventure than a race.
during the ride, i was certain i would never do it again. but soon after i summited, i was sure i would.
why? because i wasn't satisfied with my ride and i simply wanted another crack at it.
yeah, it's horrendous while you're on the mountain. but it's pretty darn cool, too.
i'd be willing to bet big bucks you'll do much better this year with less effort. i say that because a big part of the effort is dealing with the relentlessness of the mountain and the toll it takes on your head. it just never gives up. there's really no way you can prepare yourself for it. remember the first time you looked up at 5 mile grade? that is a total roundhouse to the psyche. but this year, you won't be surprised. you'll know it's coming and you'll know you can get through it.
you don't have to do this. and it seems, right now, that you're kinda wondering if you even want to do it. sure you do, otherwise you wouldn't have made it such a focus.
you're just a little burnt. get off the bike. think of it as fasting. give yourself a few days to get hungry again. then go ride washington for the adventure and laugh at how crazy it is that we actually choose to put ourselves through things like this. it's good to be insane. just don't overthink it.

[Tracer]

Climb,

I think the ROI on a ride like this is when it is over; when you can look back over the past year and realize how far your riding has come, and what you have learned about your riding and yourself.

On the day of the ride, I would just listen to your body and turn the cranks. Don’t look up to the next bend, don’t look for the top, don’t look at your stinkin’ computa, just listen to your body and turn the cranks. When you get to the top, the time is what it is, and you will know you gave it all you got.

Then the ROI will begin.

Time to taper.

Chris

[Fixed]

bro if riding is not fun don't do it ? sometimes you have to suffer a little to be fit enough to have fun .but even that shouldn't be bad i.m.h.o.
cheers

[Climb01742]

i'd like to thank everyone for their kind words and encouragement.

i too don't think this is a mid-life crisis sort of thing. at least certainly not about getting older. i honestly think i'm cool with that.

but there is a subtext i think. i've always defined myself by what i've accomplished. in slightly metaphysical terms, i've measured my life and myself more by "the doing" than by "the being". i'm trying to change that. it's hard for me to feel good about stuff without tangible milestones or achievements. i know this is a "duh" statement but living that way has it's limitations.

this approach has helped me in my job. but it hasn't always worked out so well in my life.

i think i'm wrestling with how to gain a better perspective on achieving stuff. doing stuff is good i think. what i haven't quite worked out for myself is: what's a good price to pay, to do stuff. and when do you let go of the doing. too late isn't good, but too early isn't either.

on this morning's ride, my brain was swirling with work stuff. the noise was loud. but i was able to make two thoughts stick: be in this moment. be in this place. instead of disassociating myself with my riding, with the effort, i tried to totally associate myself with it. i had to do 2 x 20 min big ring intervals. i found a good mental place and just stayed there, and did 1 x 40 min interval, nice and hard. getting my mind out of my body's way is a good thing.

[davids]

The "Be Here Now" approach is a great one, and I find I can make it stick best when I'm riding alone. Something about the physical effort makes it easier for me to be in the moment - It still requires conscious effort, but when I get it right, I feel like my senses begin to extend into the landscape I'm moving through. It's simultaneously exhilirating and calming.

I've never tried it while making a big effort (like climbing a 10% grade) - I think it would be much harder to manage but if I could... Who knows, I might reach nirvana?

[cpg]

Climb-

Remember last year the mountain didn't beat you. Your fitness didn't beat you. Your bike didn't beat you. The wind didn't beat you well maybe a little. What beat you was your head. Remember in a mass start, adrenaline can take over. Avoid that. Ride your ride. Ignore the riders around you. Ride the pace that your body allows. When you reach the top, pardon the poor analogy, you should be just out of gas. Not before but shortly thereafter. In other words time your output so you leave nothing left but don't blow too early. That is all done in your head. Good luck. You will be fine and you will do better than last year. Are you sure you just don't want to join us at the Ramble? It's not too late. :)

Curt

[e-RICHIE]

i was getting kinda bored with road racing after being
a fulltime participant since about 1973. the 90s were
my best years, results-wise, and i raced an average
of 50 events a season. no matter, i was almost mailing
it in. when i broke a leg in 2001, i was off my bicycle
for 3+ months. got fat. soft. atrophied (sp?).

when i got back on the horse, i was starting at zero.
i watched 'cross since the 70s but never had the nuts to
try it, despite that it looked like more fun than an orgy.

getting into (racing) 'cross was the best thing that ever
happened to my life as a bicycle rider and bicycle racer.
priorities change. i still race on the road, but could really
care less about it. a bad day in autum is better than any
ride i could ever do on pavement atmo.

food for thought, climb-issimo.

'cross effin' rules atmo©™®

[Climb01742]

What beat you was your head. Curt

100% true. at this point, that is the challenge. physically i've done what i can.