Power chart...this is just depressing [Archive]

drewellison

01-19-2017, 02:08 PM

Came across this recently, some things are just better left unsaid or unexplored.

I always wondered where I sat...well now I know. There are some strong/light cyclists out there!!!

http://d4nuk0dd6nrma.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/powerprofiling.jpg

Best unsaid and unexplored ... so you say it and then you give us the link to explore it? :bike:

I think I'll pass!

donevwil

01-19-2017, 02:11 PM

Only max power test I've done was 18 years ago and lasted 30 sec. I'm sure it's perfectly fine to round that up to 1 min, if memory serves I only threw up a little bit after 30s so 30 more would have been easy. That made me exceptional once upon a time.:beer:

Pierre

01-19-2017, 02:23 PM

Best unsaid and unexplored ... so you say it and then you give us the link to explore it? :bike:

I think I'll pass!

Thank you for the laugh...yep, I guess I am guilty of that.

MattTuck

01-19-2017, 02:24 PM

wasfast

01-19-2017, 02:39 PM

nooneline

01-19-2017, 02:57 PM

The chart is from the Racing and Training with a Power Meter. Andrew Coggan is the author of the chart I believe. There's certainly some tolerance around the exact values but from my own performance, it's pretty much right on. Depressing/deflating but right.

Take this chart with a grain of salt. If I understand right, it was created by getting some w/kg values for top-tier cyclists, assuming some w/kg values for non-cyclists, and then just filling in the area between in a linear way.

I know a ton of people who have values that are higher than their category - and a bunch that have a category that's much higher than their values.

Lewis Moon

01-19-2017, 03:21 PM

The only saving grace is that it is unlikely that the rider gifted with exceptional FTP/kg is the same one that maxes out the 5 sec power/kg.

In other words, I'd like to see the numbers for Greipel, Cancellara and Froome for those durations.

I'm pretty sure the max 5 sec was someone like Chris Hoy. I did a bit of back of the envelope power/weight ratios and Sir Chris was pretty close.
As Caleb Ewan and Cavs would tell you; power is only one part of the speed formula. Power + Aero = fast.

christian

01-19-2017, 03:27 PM

I know a ton of people who have values that are higher than their category - and a bunch that have a category that's much higher than their values.Well, you do still have to race the bicycle race you're in, so that makes sense.

Macadamia

01-19-2017, 03:36 PM

am I reading that right? a 90kg rider with no training should be able to put out +1000 watts for 5 seconds?

sandyrs

01-19-2017, 03:38 PM

am I reading that right? a 90kg rider with no training should be able to put out +1000 watts for 5 seconds?

Sounds about right to me?

DfCas

01-19-2017, 03:49 PM

Age? I assume this chart is for young people in their prime. What about us old geezers?

makoti

01-19-2017, 03:52 PM

I once saw one of these weighted for age. Made me feel SLIGHTLY better.

Mark McM

01-19-2017, 04:01 PM

am I reading that right? a 90kg rider with no training should be able to put out +1000 watts for 5 seconds?

Sure, why not? Cycling speed isn't about pure power, it is about the ratio of power-to-size. A large non-elite athlete may not have a good ratio of power-to-size, but that doesn't mean they can't have a large absolute power output.

I wonder what the 5 second power of Sumo wrestler is?

kgreene10

01-19-2017, 04:21 PM

macaroon

01-19-2017, 05:22 PM

Based on my experience in Central Texas, the chart may be outdated. Many racers I know have power numbers higher than their predicted category. So, it's worse than you thought!

A friend who is a trainer and consultant in Spain just posted an analysis of pier files for a rider for the whole Vuelta 2016. All the categorized climbs were done at above 5.5 w/kg. More striking still is that the rider's ftp is 5.7 w/kg! That's just astounding. I can only hold that for 5 mins!

Exactly this. A friend who races (hill climbs) told me last year that he was happy with "last weeks race" as he did his best five minute power of the season. I asked what it was and he told me; 450W. According to the chart, he's comfortably in the "World Class" category.....he's not even sponsored!
It takes more than impressive numbers to be a world class rider.

fa63

01-19-2017, 05:35 PM

My current FTP is ~275W, but I also weigh 100 kg. Not sure I could keep up with the Cat 5s around here.

About 11 years ago, I weighed 80 kg and had a FTP around 320 W. I was a mediocre Cat 3.

stephenmarklay

01-19-2017, 06:03 PM

Well that is a slap in the face. I guess I have some room to improve.

Actually, this is very instructive. It shows me that my training has biased my power. My FTP puts me in the cat 3-4 and my 5 minute as well (less so for 5 minute) but my 1 minute is untrained to cat 5. I am like 150 watts low :eek: Now, that one minute I did was under non ideal conditions -after 3 all out sprints and doing every other day fasting but still.

It does however, show that I am not good at what I have not trained. My 5 second however, is about cat 4.

Overall I am pretty weak I guess. But I only have room to grow :)

MattTuck

01-19-2017, 06:04 PM

This chart is mainly good for me to practice my middle school algebra to figure out how high my w/kg could be if I lost 50 pounds. Ahhh, then it is respectable. :banana:

stephenmarklay

01-19-2017, 06:35 PM

Exactly this. A friend who races (hill climbs) told me last year that he was happy with "last weeks race" as he did his best five minute power of the season. I asked what it was and he told me; 450W. According to the chart, he's comfortably in the "World Class" category.....he's not even sponsored!
It takes more than impressive numbers to be a world class rider.

Yeah that was about my 1 minute.

echappist

01-19-2017, 06:51 PM

i believe the following is pertinent

fa63

01-19-2017, 06:59 PM

Haha, that is great :beer:

Gummee

01-19-2017, 07:01 PM

Showed me what I already knew: I train enough to be a good 4, an OK 3, or a piss-poor 1/2

M

Chris

01-19-2017, 09:07 PM

Based on my experience in Central Texas, the chart may be outdated. Many racers I know have power numbers higher than their predicted category. So, it's worse than you thought!

A friend who is a trainer and consultant in Spain just posted an analysis of pier files for a rider for the whole Vuelta 2016. All the categorized climbs were done at above 5.5 w/kg. More striking still is that the rider's ftp is 5.7 w/kg! That's just astounding. I can only hold that for 5 mins!

Based on my experience in Central Texas many racers that USADA has tested have testosterone numbers above their age.

kgreene10

01-19-2017, 10:06 PM

Based on my experience in Central Texas many racers that USADA has tested have testosterone numbers above their age.

Wow! There's a firebomb of a comment in an otherwise sedate thread.

kgreene10

01-19-2017, 10:06 PM

well that is a slap in the face. I guess i have some room to improve.

Actually, this is very instructive. It shows me that my training has biased my power. My ftp puts me in the cat 3-4 and my 5 minute as well (less so for 5 minute) but my 1 minute is untrained to cat 5. I am like 150 watts low :eek: Now, that one minute i did was under non ideal conditions -after 3 all out sprints and doing every other day fasting but still.

It does however, show that i am not good at what i have not trained. My 5 second however, is about cat 4.

Overall i am pretty weak i guess. But i only have room to grow :)

hiit

stephenmarklay

01-19-2017, 10:09 PM

hiit

Yep. I will work on that.

shovelhd

01-19-2017, 10:11 PM

Take whatever you want from that chart. It's a very broad brush over a very complex subject. The author himself regrets putting the left column on it, precisely because of threads like these.

rain dogs

01-20-2017, 05:02 AM

I don't see what is so contentious about this chart. It's been floating around for years and I've used it as a very general guide of information.

I think first and foremost you've gotta be honest with yourself about any numbers you track, and also the context. I hear a lot of "my power was" (peak) in place of avg, optimistic weight claims, trusting Strava/Garmin numbers vs actual, ramp %'s vs actual climb grades - "I spent the weekend climbing 20% climbs" (yeah... 20% on a 20m ramp on a 5% avg climb for 5km. Or a 20% avg climb that is 300m long.) The hardest climbs in the world avg. 7-12% (Galibier, Tourmalet, Angliru, Zoncolan etc.) so everytime I hear people talking about climbs 20% and 30% and their 500-600W up them... :rolleyes: . In fact, in the whole of France, I don't think there is a climb longer than 5km that is over 10% avg.... and it's a big country with a lot of Alps.

I find the chart accurate and useful. It shows where I'm stronger (5min) and by association thereabouts - or shorter sustained efforts like shorter climbs of 1-3km. And where I'm weaker 5sec and thereabouts (sprints/power) etc. and long efforts (FT), long rides of many hours, or long climbs of 10km+

This correlates with my riding. I'm not very powerful (so I suck at sprinting), but I'm very light, (at times down to ~63kg, but easily and normally 65-67), and I don't ride as much or train well as many I ride with (so I have good fitness, but not great).

The categories on the left are there to say the same things in related, and approximate terms likely for very fit, 20 somethings.

Tandem Rider

01-20-2017, 05:36 AM

I think it's a pretty arbitrary chart. For me, the FT level doesn't lie even close to the same row as my other numbers. I know from being a test guinea pig in my 20s what my FT was, and can see the steep decline over the last 25 or more years. :eek: When I look at my 5s and 1 min numbers, according to the chart, I shouldn't even be allowed to enter a race. :help:

I can't see how it is even possible to predict racing category by looking at one chart and the numbers you tick off in training by yourself with a PM. :confused:

macaroon

01-20-2017, 06:10 AM

Some Pro stats. Chris Anker Sørensen pushing 6.8W/Kg for five minutes AFTER racing for 200Km (and racing 200Km every day for 2 weeks before that) :beer:

https://cyclingtips.com/2009/07/just-how-good-are-these-guys/

hida yanra

01-20-2017, 01:39 PM

i believe the following is pertinent
YOU BEAUTY! thanks for posting it, saved me the trouble :)

Take whatever you want from that chart. It's a very broad brush over a very complex subject. The author himself regrets putting the left column on it, precisely because of threads like these.

indeed, the chart doesn't really tell you much, other than the vaguest notions that might be helpful in considering a tactical approach to racing. The rest of it? meh, doesn't really matter.

For example - my numbers in the 5second column and 20' were always rather low, yet I was a pretty successful track racer - a bit odd, eh?

well, I noticed that my 5' values were (comparatively) quite high, and that sent me down the path of figuring out "what do you have to do to win a race with 4-5' efforts?"
It isn't kilo attacks (trying to Kilo a field of track racers is a REAL painful proposition), it isn't mass sprints, but neither is it attacks from 10k out.

"dance with them as brung you" is a pretty reasonable approach for bike racers trying to sort out how to translate their physiological profiles into wins - and I personally know several people in this thread have found success matching those things up.

It's only one piece of the puzzle - someone w/ a 20w/kg sprint but who is terrified of contact & proximity *could* be a good sprinter, but not without fixing some skill gaps.

Also, when and where those values are derived matter a lot. Plenty of WT sprints are won w/ 1500watt sprints. After 4h of racing, hills, and the completely :banana: 10k leading to the sprint, 5" sprint values are comparatively low in terms of raw numbers, but intensity over the previous 4 hours or previous 10 minutes might be astronomical. YMMV

echappist

01-20-2017, 02:06 PM

YOU BEAUTY! thanks for posting it, saved me the trouble :)

thanks; hope you are well. btw, that chart may have taken me quite a few hours to track down back when i found it a few years ago

indeed, the chart doesn't really tell you much, other than the vaguest notions that might be helpful in considering a tactical approach to racing. The rest of it? meh, doesn't really matter.

For example - my numbers in the 5second column and 20' were always rather low, yet I was a pretty successful track racer - a bit odd, eh?

well, I noticed that my 5' values were (comparatively) quite high, and that sent me down the path of figuring out "what do you have to do to win a race with 4-5' efforts?"
It isn't kilo attacks (trying to Kilo a field of track racers is a REAL painful proposition), it isn't mass sprints, but neither is it attacks from 10k out.

"dance with them as brung you" is a pretty reasonable approach for bike racers trying to sort out how to translate their physiological profiles into wins - and I personally know several people in this thread have found success matching those things up.

It's only one piece of the puzzle - someone w/ a 20w/kg sprint but who is terrified of contact & proximity *could* be a good sprinter, but not without fixing some skill gaps.

or lose some sense of self-preservation :p

Also, when and where those values are derived matter a lot. Plenty of WT sprints are won w/ 1500watt sprints. After 4h of racing, hills, and the completely :banana: 10k leading to the sprint, 5" sprint values are comparatively low in terms of raw numbers, but intensity over the previous 4 hours or previous 10 minutes might be astronomical. YMMV
that's what people don't appreciate. last 3km of a sprint stage is a VO2max effort

benb

01-20-2017, 02:30 PM

The chart mostly works for me. I'm 39, I was a lot younger when I dabbled in racing, but I don't really think I'm much slower then when I was in my 20s, I was much more consistent last year then I usually was in my 20s. I can tell my recovery sucks now compared to then, but I overtrained like crazy back then.

Anyway I used a PM a pretty high % of the time last year and looking back at a years worth of data the values in that table make sense to me based on how I raced back when.

Power didn't really ever matter for me.. I didn't like racing that much, got scared of getting hurt after a few close calls, and wasn't that great from a tactical standing. I was inconsistent and usually couldn't work things out to be in good shape and fresh for a race I cared about. I also hated driving my car to races and didn't really enjoy the scene in general so lots more power wouldn't have really helped much.

hida yanra

01-20-2017, 02:54 PM

thanks; hope all is well,
<snip>
that's what people don't appreciate. last 3km of a sprint stage is a VO2max effort

but I'm rock climbing these days - talk about a sport where power/weight matters 5x as much as in cycling? I found it, problem is, I'm way heavier than when I was racing - oops.

more On Topic -
did you see that video I posted on the 33 a few years ago w/ a lead out guy's (maybe Hendo)'s live wattage overlaid on the broadcast video feed when he tried to kilo the field?
It just depressing, but deeply instructive to anyone thinking about the sprint and not the bit that leads up to it.

also, I LOVE that two of the three racers I think of when I talk about winning with a less traditional power curve were already in this thread. (Now where's Ex when ya need him)

maxn

01-20-2017, 03:25 PM

I In fact, in the whole of France, I don't think there is a climb longer than 5km that is over 10% avg.... and it's a big country with a lot of Alps.

Off topic, but I also don't know of any >10%, but I know of a lot that are = 10% (or close to it). To start, there are a couple that are <5 km from me:

https://www.cols-cyclisme.com/chartreuse/france/col-de-chalais-depuis-voreppe-c502.htm
and
https://www.strava.com/segments/642182

and a few a bit further afield

https://www.strava.com/segments/2501964
https://www.strava.com/segments/1413639
https://www.strava.com/segments/1084413
https://www.strava.com/segments/676271
https://www.strava.com/segments/3848598

and there are a host of others coming in a little shy
(https://www.strava.com/segments/1084413)

echappist

01-20-2017, 06:28 PM

eh, life's complicated - as of recently not married anymore, but that's a good thing.
No desire to race anymore, but that may shift back with the other recent changes.

but I'm rock climbing these days - talk about a sport where power/weight matters 5x as much as in cycling? I found it, problem is, I'm way heavier than when I was racing - oops.

more On Topic -
did you see that video I posted on the 33 a few years ago w/ a lead out guy's (maybe Hendo)'s live wattage overlaid on the broadcast video feed when he tried to kilo the field?
It just depressing, but deeply instructive to anyone thinking about the sprint and not the bit that leads up to it.

i'm sorry to hear that. hope things improve

also, I LOVE that two of the three racers I think of when I talk about winning with a less traditional power curve were already in this thread. (Now where's Ex when ya need him)

who's the third racer?