Whats worse? WADA or the Media?

[NAHBS]

I think its time for a poll.
We know how Effed up Wada is and we know how the Media loves to cause panic or sensationalize stories.

Lets figure out who is really to blame for the sad state of sports and doping.

DW

[e-RICHIE]

media atmo

[Roy E. Munson]

Lets figure out who is really to blame for the sad state of sports and doping

The dopers

[J.Greene]

I think its time for a poll.
We know how Effed up Wada is and we know how the Media loves to cause panic or sensationalize stories.

Lets figure out who is really to blame for the sad state of sports and doping.

DW

Media,

there has been too much bad reporting atmo the last few days. Yesterday there was a story that the results would be know by the end of the day. Then we learned the test had not even been requested.

JG

[Onno]

I don't understand the point of this poll. Does anyone really believe one group is to blame for the sorry situation cycling is currently in? Blaming the media can only be a joke. Blaming WADA is like blaming the Maginot Line for the fall of France. Blaming the French is xenophobia or worse. Blaming the athletes is to ignore the money, the managers, the history, etc. etc.

[NAHBS]

Correct, but thats because WADA told them that.

DW

[Big Dan]

The bonehead athletes, you can't make some of this stuff up..
Crazy nights of drinking, Jack, Beer, the cream, the clear, twins, dogs, faxes,
the posse, the uniballer, the Crow, the hip, the cyclism..... :D

[e-RICHIE]

I don't understand the point of this poll. Does anyone really believe one group is to blame for the sorry situation cycling is currently in? Blaming the media can only be a joke. Blaming WADA is like blaming the Maginot Line for the fall of France. Blaming the French is xenophobia or worse. Blaming the athletes is to ignore the money, the managers, the history, etc. etc.
agreed.
to clarify my post above -
the athletes may participate, and wada may test,
but until there's a conviction, in this week alone i
have read countless !!expert media!! types opine
on every aspect of cycling, doping, and everything
in between. 97% of these folks, a 'la ron rapoprt,
only watch cyling one week a year, but in an effort
to gain viewership and/or sell newsprint, they add
their personal biases to every reported piece. hey -
but isn't that the reason the tdf was begun 103 years
ago?! six degrees, etcetera atmo.
as far dw's poll goes, i shoot the media because they
have the greatest influence and reach here.

[Roy E. Munson]

but in an effort to gain viewership and/or sell newsprint

Isn't that a reporters job?

[e-RICHIE]

Isn't that a reporters job?
where does reporting end and speculation begin atmo?

[Roy E. Munson]

where does reporting end and speculation begin atmo?

I'm guessing nowhere near when the rider or his coach or his dog, or his wife, or Mary Poppins sticks a needle in the riders ar$e or puts a patch on his nut$. When I see a reporter administering PED's to a rider, then I'll blame the media.

[Climb01742]

yes, and if you listen to the bush administration, the media is why we're so f**ked up in iraq. the messenger may not be perfect, but without the message... blaming the press is like blaming your TV for what's on your TV, or blaming your mouth for the stupid sh1t we all say.

[e-RICHIE]

I'm guessing nowhere near when the rider or his coach or his dog, or his wife, or Mary Poppins sticks a needle in the riders ar$e or puts a patch on his nut$. When I see a reporter administering PED's to a rider, then I'll blame the media.
blame the consumers. we buy the product atmo.
no ticky. no washee.
you want the the chrome, you pay for the chrome.




edit -
climb. i blame anyone that supports the sport
and the sport's underwriters. as noted many
times here, i love the sport, warts and all, so
i have nothing to complain about. the sport has
remained true to its roots since time immemorial.

[erty65]

Landis

[goonster]

Blaming the media can only be a joke. Blaming WADA is like blaming the Maginot Line for the fall of France.

The media isn't to blame for the state of the sport, but I do blame them for getting half the facts wrong and making the other half up.

The problem with WADA is that they don't produce anything and don't answer to anybody. They are not, to use the parlance of our times, a true "stakeholder". At least the ASO has to put on a good show, and the UCI has to run the asylum.

All testing and protocol aside, I'm starting to be more and more convinced that riders can't dope without the tacit approval of the team. The team says "win, or you're outta here". The teams have too little to lose. If a rider is caught he is hung out to dry, his career is ruined, and the sponsor is tarnished. The team hires somebody else.

The current situation stinks, but when you consider all the players, where the money and the pressure comes from, and the history of the sport, I don't think that this is something that was driven by the riders. The riders are reacting to the conditions around them.

Riders are riders, and there will always be riders. Shut down the WADA, cancel the Tour, do away with the teams and close every last newspaper. Guys will still line up to race somewhere. Give them a mountain, and they'll use shorter gears. Bring out the rain and they'll put on a jacket. Make them ride impossible races, with unbearable pressure to win, and they'll do whatever they have to to get through it.

[e-RICHIE]

The media isn't to blame for the state of the sport, but I do blame them for getting half the facts wrong and making the other half up.
that was my point too.

The current situation stinks,.<cut>
the current situation has been the only
situation going back 100+ years atmo.

[Climb01742]

Landis

if the reports about external source of testo are true, then the blame for the whole landis affair is floyd. others made it worse or mishandled things but if floyd is guilty, then that's where the blame lays...and lies.

[goonster]

the current situation has been the only
situation going back 100+ years atmo.

Yes, but with the newish* twist that the riders are now subjected to a long list of secret, expensive tests that nobody understands but everybody expects to magically reveal the Truth.

(* starting in the Tommy Simpson era, but really getting out of hand in the EPO era)

[Big Dan]

Looking for who to blame is like listening to the 45rpm version of "Stairway to Heaven".
Don't fool yourselfs. Get real and to the source...

Erik Breukink, Rabobank team director: "It's a black time for cycling; this is dramatic. The Tour started badly, and now we can erase the winner, too. Was he that desperate after stage 16? It resembles an everything-or-nothing move. Actually, it doesn't surprise me that he got caught after stage 17. His ride to Morzine was exceptional." (Sporza)

[e-RICHIE]

Yes, but with the newish* twist that the riders are now subjected to a long list of secret, expensive tests that nobody understands but everybody expects to magically reveal the Truth.

(* starting in the Tommy Simpson era, but really getting out of hand in the EPO era)


that's an underlying point with me. everybody?
isn't all of this a result of how the public's appetite
for salaciousness (sp?) pushes the press further and
deeper into everyone's living room? into politician's?
into ceo's? into entertainer's? into sports hero's?
we all say we wanna know all the details, but when
they are all exposed, we find poltics, the corporate
world, hollywood, and sports all are mirrors of our
lives much more so than we care to admit.

[Roy E. Munson]

Blame it on whoever you like, I still don't recall any reporters being caught administering drugs, or selling drugs to riders.

When Filip Meirhaeghe tested positive for EPO, he just said he wanted to win a few more races and made a poor decision. I respect him for that. He didn't blame the press or WADA.

[e-RICHIE]

Blame it on whoever you like, I still don't recall any reporters being caught administering drugs, or selling drugs to riders.

When Filip Meirhaeghe tested positive for EPO, he just said he wanted to win a few more races and made a poor decision. I respect him for that. He didn't blame the press or WADA.
in the beginning -
a french newspaper needed to increase circulation.
the idea was to stage an event in which humans
would attempt superhuman feats - on a bicycle.

[Roy E. Munson]

...and they sold drugs to the riders and administered it? So Ron Rappaport (sp?) and his crew are secretly drug dealers? Wow, why doesn't WADA go after these criminals? And I'm shocked that the riders who are held down by these reporters and forced to take drugs while WADA watches don't speak out more.

[goonster]

And I'm shocked that the riders who are held down by these reporters and forced to take drugs while WADA watches don't speak out more.

Some do.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2004/news/mar04/2003-Manzano-TDFP.jpg

If they don't like it, they can leave.

[Climb01742]

i'm sorry but i just can't buy that fans are to blame for any of this. when bonds juiced is was because he hated mcguirer (sp) and sosa grabbing all the attention. when millar doped, he blamed himself, not the fans.

i don't believe that the full blame rests with the riders, either. sponsors and race promoters share in the blame. but i personally just don't see where the fans fit into the blame. i think fans dug this year's tour because it was (seemingly) cleaner, more open, more unpredictable. if floyd doped, it was his personal demons at work, not the fans. least that's my take.

[Big Dan]

:(

[e-RICHIE]

i'm sorry but i just can't buy that fans are to blame for any of this. when bonds juiced is was because he hated mcguirer (sp) and sosa grabbing all the attention. when millar doped, he blamed himself, not the fans.

i don't believe that the full blame rests with the riders, either. sponsors and race promoters share in the blame. but i personally just don't see where the fans fit into the blame. i think fans dug this year's tour because it was (seemingly) cleaner, more open, more unpredictable. if floyd doped, it was his personal demons at work, not the fans. least that's my take.

the crack trade isn't prospering from me because i like dinkel acker better.
vegas doesn't profit from me because i don't place bets.
i take care of myself, so the prostitution issue can't be layed at my feet.
but i am a fan of pro cycling, and i watch as much as i can.
i am supporting the industry.
without me (fans/consumers) they are nothing atmo.

what more is there?
entertainment is a commodity.

[Roy E. Munson]

So using that logic, anyone on this forum who goes to church is responsible for priests cornholing little boys?

[e-RICHIE]

So using that logic, anyone on this forum who goes to church is responsible for priests cornholing little boys?
i'm jewish atmo.

[Frustration]

Gotta love stereotyping

We all b!tch about how WADA stereotype the peloton. We don't like ignorant motorists who hate "godamn road hog cyclists"


Then someone comes in and blames "The Media".


Not saying that some of the media are not reaching, but the blame sits with the people that allow this to happen and still refuse to create rules that hold teams resposible for their riders... The UCI.


.

[Roy E. Munson]

No need to apologize :D :banana:

[Climb01742]

personally i blame the darn folks who_make_bikes. without bikes, no doping. why hasn't someone thought of this before?*












* :D

[sailorboy]

I don't know if it tells the whole story here, or places all of the blame where it should lay, but the media has definitely sprayed rounds all over the target on this one. Yes, to some extent they are only serving up what 'we' want to see; except if there isn't much there, they spin it 100 different ways to keep it in the headlines. Giving the media a free pass to do whatever they want is like saying that a crack dealer is without blame for supplying the hapless junkie...

Here's the lyrics from "Vicarious" by Tool. Apropos to this and so many other of today's current tragedies.

Eye on the TV
'cause tragedy thrills me
Whatever flavor
It happens to be

Like:
"Killed by the husband"
"Drowned by the ocean"
"Shot by his own son"
"She used the poison in his tea
[and / he] kissed [him / her] goodbye"
That's my kind of story
It's no fun til someone dies

Don't look me at like
I am a monster
Frown out your one face
But with the other
Stare like a junkie
Into the TV
Stare like a zombie
While the mother, holds her child
Watches him die
Hands to the sky cryin,
"Why, oh why?"

Cause I need to watch things die
From a distance
Vicariously, I
Live while the whole world dies
You all need it too - don't lie.

Why can't we just admit it?
Why can't we just admit it?
We won't give pause until the blood is flowin'
Neither the brave nor bold
Will write us the story so
We won't give pause until the blood is flowin'

I need to watch things die
From a good safe distance
Vicariously, I
Live while the whole world dies
You all feel the same so
Why can't we just admit it?

Blood like rain fallin' down
[Drown on grave and ground / ?? ]

Part vampire
Part warrior
Carnivore and voyeur
Stare at the
[transmittal / transmitter]
Sing to the death rattle

La, la, la, la, la, la, la-lie (x4)

Credulous at best
Your desire to believe in
Angels in the hearts of men.
But pull your head on out
[Your head please / ??] and give a listen
Shouldn't have to say it all again

The universe is hostile
So impersonal
Devour to survive
So it is, so it's always been ...

We all feed on tragedy
It's like blood to a vampire

Vicariously, I
Live while the whole world dies
Much better you than I.

[e-RICHIE]

personally i blame the darn folks who_make_bikes. without bikes, no doping. why hasn't someone thought of this before?*












* :D


dooooooooooooooode - i copped to the blame eon drurys ago ago.
hit me with your rythym stick you adman you. atmo cheers :D .

[bostondrunk]

dooooooooooooooode - i copped to the blame eon drurys ago ago.
hit me with your rythym stick you adman you. atmo cheers :D .


How is there any question who is to blame???
The tour de france was created. Hell, I could ride the tour route. YES, I would do it extremely slow. And the pro riders would be faster. But no one forced them to do it at 45km/hr. One athlete decides to dope to get an advantage, then the rest catch on, and so on and so on. Is it really any more complicated than that?? Take all the money and sponsorship out of it......and you will still have some that will dope just for the glory of winning.

[Avispa]

The dopers

Another vote, here. The scandal just doesn't come out of thin air... I someone doesn't get busted, nothing starts.

I have never seen the media making up a story such as: "Think about this: Is everyone clean at the TDF?" or "Would you like to bet everyone is dirty in baseball?"

The fire starts somewhere, and it is always with the athlete, no?

[e-RICHIE]

How is there any question who is to blame???
The tour de france was created. Hell, I could ride the tour route. YES, I would do it extremely slow. And the pro riders would be faster. But no one forced them to do it at 45km/hr. One athlete decides to dope to get an advantage, then the rest catch on, and so on and so on. Is it really any more complicated than that?? Take all the money and sponsorship out of it......and you will still have some that will dope just for the glory of winning.


you're in the financial world; you should know
better. money and sponsorship drive the sport.
would you pay to watch paid professionals do
what you can do? would you pay to watch yourself
get lapped at well ave atmo?

[bostondrunk]

you're in the financial world; you should know
better. money and sponsorship drive the sport.
would you pay to watch paid professionals do
what you can do? would you pay to watch yourself
get lapped at well ave atmo?

?? I'm an IT consultant. Check my bank account and you'll see that I'm no financial whiz...... :D :beer:

When I watch a TT during the TDF, I really couldn't care less if they are averaging 50km/hr or 40km/hr. I'm more interested in the time differences between the riders. So if they all stop doping, and their average speed comes down, it wouldn't bother me and I'd still buy the DVD.

[zap]

snipped


When I watch a TT during the TDF, I really couldn't care less if they are averaging 50km/hr or 40km/hr. I'm more interested in the time differences between the riders. So if they all stop doping, and their average speed comes down, it wouldn't bother me and I'd still buy the DVD.

Right on.

[tomwd3]

?? I'm an IT consultant. Check my bank account and you'll see that I'm no financial whiz...... :D :beer:

When I watch a TT during the TDF, I really couldn't care less if they are averaging 50km/hr or 40km/hr. I'm more interested in the time differences between the riders. So if they all stop doping, and their average speed comes down, it wouldn't bother me and I'd still buy the DVD.

Count me in too. The cheating is simply greed (with a whole lot of rationalizing thrown in for good measure).

[e-RICHIE]

Count me in too. The cheating is simply greed (with a whole lot of rationalizing thrown in for good measure).
how does this juxtapose against all those that'd get the dvd
whether doping was part of sports or not? ya' know - the fans?!
if i bought dvd's, i'd get this tdf regardless of the outcome of
the b sample atmo.

[tomwd3]

how does this juxtapose against all those that'd get the dvd
whether doping was part of sports or not? ya' know - the fans?!
if i bought dvd's, i'd get this tdf regardless of the outcome of
the b sample atmo.

I think I know what you're saying here..all things being equal (i.e.: everybody is doing it & thus the playing field is once again level)
For me the real beauty of the 2006 tour was the human drama displayed on the road to Morzine. An individual who everybody expected to be at the depth of deprsession, doing something amazing and courageous. These are the reasons I watch. When you inject the doping aspect (sorry couldn't help myself), then, for me the authenticity of the exploit has been marred.

p.s: As I watched Stage 17 w/some friends, a couple of whom are season racers, all they kept mentioning was how Floyd must have got a double dose last night. I tell you it was realy starting to bug me by the end. Look who's the dummy now :mad:

[e-RICHIE]

I think I know what you're saying here..all things being equal (i.e.: everybody is doing it & thus the playing field is once again level)
For me the real beauty of the 2006 tour was the human drama displayed on the road to Morzine. An individual who everybody expected to be at the depth of deprsession, doing something amazing and courageous.
not me.
the day before, he was dropped by the lead group
at 10k+ to go. it wasn't the death march that i read
about atmo. he didn't come in last. only mras, a non-gc
guy, put in any real time on floyd.

These are the reasons I watch. When you inject the doping aspect (sorry couldn't help myself), then, for me the authenticity of the exploit has been marred.

p.s: As I watched Stage 17 w/some friends, a couple of whom are season racers, all they kept mentioning was how Floyd must have got a double dose last night. I tell you it was realy starting to bug me by the end. Look who's the dummy now :mad:
the b sample is positive?
the case is closed?

[Roy E. Munson]

it wasn't the death march that i read about

Funny, I thought the same thing upon seeing it the first time.

[e-RICHIE]

Funny, I thought the same thing upon seeing it the first time.
atmo - that is key to all this, and why i
"blamed" the media for making that stage
something much worse than it was atmo.
can we unring that bell?

[Roy E. Munson]

Hang on, you're blaming the media for making him take drugs. Let's not unring that bell yet.

[e-RICHIE]

Hang on, you're blaming the media for making him take drugs. Let's not unring that bell yet.
reading is fundamental atmo.
i did not blame the media for that.
i posted that the media is to blame (atmo)
for adding its personal bias to facts that
as yet have not surfaced, and they also
project a knowledge of the sport, its history,
and all the wada/usada stuff that appears to
be less than complete in its presentation.

[sevencyclist]

not me.
the day before, he was dropped by the lead group
at 10k+ to go. it wasn't the death march that i read
about atmo. he didn't come in last. only mras, a non-gc
guy, put in any real time on floyd.


the b sample is positive?
the case is closed?


This goes back to the original point that media cetainly has played a large role in state of cycling. The dropping on stage 16 was amplified by the media to make it seem like a death march to increase the drama, just like the premature conclusion/discussion before B sample is out, to sell headline/news/TV viewership.

I am not clear on the regulations of UCI. Does UCI allow a rider with positve A sample to race before B sample is tested? If rule dictates that Floyd had to be pulled out for positive sample A, then it would be hard to not have speculations about who the rider was. If that rule does not exist, then I think the leakage of the news from the lab and team did a great disservice for cycling.

Personally, if the suspension rule applies after sample A, I think that rule should be changed.

[tomwd3]

I sure thought he was done after stage 16. I think he was about 8 minutes down on the yellow. That seemed like quite a bit of time to me.
Oh, I grant you "back in the day", people would blow up, and then make up time. But it's been a while since anybody made up some real time to get back in yellow at the end of the tour.

Are you saying that what happened on 17 wasn't really that special, and the media was over-hyping? I seem to recall Mr LeMond being pretty impressed.
(I would guess he knows what it's like to have to make up some time, when everybody else thinks you're toast)

[e-RICHIE]

I sure thought he was done after stage 16. I think he was about 8 minutes down on the yellow. That seemed like quite a bit of time to me.
Oh, I grant you "back in the day", people would blow up, and then make up time. But it's been a while since anybody made up some real time to get back in yellow at the end of the tour.

Are you saying that what happened on 17 wasn't really that special, and the media was over-hyping? I seem to recall Mr LeMond being pretty impressed.
(I would guess he knows what it's like to have to make up some time, when everybody else thinks you're toast)
i do not know if this is for me, but atmo, it certainly was
a great ride and it was fueld by emotion and adreneline.
and one thing that floyd had (that we know for certain)
that day, in addition to an agenda, that no one else in
the entire race had, was his own personal valet. what
racer or chase group had such access to his/their team
car as landis did? he reportedly received 70 bottles. i'd
wager none of his peers received 1/4 of that amount
that day. don't get me wrong, it was a valiant ride and the
stuff of legends, but all the stars were aligned so that
it could occur. and - also - mebbe his gc peers were
tired from attacking his mennonite hiney so much the
day before. ya' never know.

[bostondrunk]

I sure thought he was done after stage 16. I think he was about 8 minutes down on the yellow. That seemed like quite a bit of time to me.
Oh, I grant you "back in the day", people would blow up, and then make up time. But it's been a while since anybody made up some real time to get back in yellow at the end of the tour.

Are you saying that what happened on 17 wasn't really that special, and the media was over-hyping? I seem to recall Mr LeMond being pretty impressed.
(I would guess he knows what it's like to have to make up some time, when everybody else thinks you're toast)

He is guilty......but that said, a testosterone patch isn't enough to account for his ride on stage 17, imho. He did a hell of a ride. You think half the other riders in the peleton didn't have a test patch on the night before as well??

[tomwd3]

i do not know if this is for me, but atmo, it certainly was
a great ride and it was fueld by emotion and adreneline.
and one thing that floyd had (that we know for certain)
that day, in addition to an agenda, that no one else in
the entire race had, was his own personal valet. what
racer or chase group had such access to his/their team
car as landis did? he reportedly received 70 bottles. i'd
wager none of his peers received 1/4 of that amount
that day. don't get me wrong, it was a valiant ride and the
stuff of legends, but all the stars were aligned so that
it could occur. and - also - mebbe his gc peers were
tired from attacking his mennonite hiney so much the
day before. ya' never know.

Yeah that was definitely wierd. I was waiting for a hose to come out of the back seat of the car and was him down like an elephant at the Zoo!!!
Absolutely, the stars were aligned, timing was right, questionable competitor tactics, but still...I think we're talkin about an avg of 360 watts for 5 hrs.
Patch on you sac or not, that's gotta hurt.

[e-RICHIE]

Yeah that was definitely wierd. I was waiting for a hose to come out of the back seat of the car and was him down like an elephant at the Zoo!!!
Absolutely, the stars were aligned, timing was right, questionable competitor tactics, but still...I think we're talkin about an avg of 360 watts for 5 hrs.
Patch on you sac or not, that's gotta hurt.
on the the broadcast, ventura mentioned that
floyd trains that way for 8 hours sometimes.

[tomwd3]

He is guilty......but that said, a testosterone patch isn't enough to account for his ride on stage 17, imho. He did a hell of a ride. You think half the other riders in the peleton didn't have a test patch on the night before as well??

It was a helluva ride. Just ask the rest of the guys riding that day.
Patch or no...it was a ballsy move :rolleyes:

[tomwd3]

on the the broadcast, ventura mentioned that
floyd trains that way for 8 hours sometimes.

8 hours in the hurt box!!
What did those parents do to this kid??? I'll make a mental note to avoid any freelance farming work in Bucks County, PA
Yowza :D

[Archibald]

reading is fundamental atmo.
i did not blame the media for that.
i posted that the media is to blame (atmo)
for adding its personal bias to facts that
as yet have not surfaced, and they also
project a knowledge of the sport, its history,
and all the wada/usada stuff that appears to
be less than complete in its presentation.
Yet we are all guilty of this and it happens everyday on this forum. A simple review of any topic that includes or references the name "Armstrong" is going to be full of personal bias, none of which is based on fact, should prove this to you.

[e-RICHIE]

Yet we are all guilty of this and it happens everyday on this forum. A simple review of any topic that includes or references the name "Armstrong" is going to be full of personal bias, none of which is based on fact, should prove this to you.
i agree with you, but at least on a forum
we are representing ourselves, and prefacing
each post with atmo is redundant. i would
like to think that the fourth estate answers
to a higher calling, although - if i believe
anything i write here, they are no different
from you or i atmo.



btw the tool still works great.

[Big Dan]

Apparently some people go to the restroom and their crap doesn't smell...
This guy just wants attention........

:)

[Archibald]

i agree with you, but at least on a forum
we are representing ourselves, and prefacing
each post with atmo is redundant. i would
like to think that the fourth estate answers
to a higher calling, although - if i believe
anything i write here, they are no different
from you or i atmo.
Yes, I don't think we can, or should, so readily exempt ourselves. If this forum was nothing more than random chatter, I would agree with you, it is just our opinion. But, as has been demonstrated time and time again, our words have more power than to simply convey our opinions. By this, I mean that this medium has shown a reliable and predictable ability to influence public thought and opinion. If someone gains stature on this forum, they gain more power to influence. Their words carry more weight. The press works the same way. With that power comes responsibility (something I learned from Spiderman). I agree that many of today's journalist seem to have largely disengaged themselves from the notion of responsibility which in turn leads to the situation we observe today vis a vis the Landis case. I think the same can be said of us. We are all just filling blank space with what are ultimately meaningless words until the facts are in. The difference is that journalist do it to sell what we're buying. We do it for free.

[Onno]

This goes back to the original point that media cetainly has played a large role in state of cycling. The dropping on stage 16 was amplified by the media to make it seem like a death march to increase the drama, just like the premature conclusion/discussion before B sample is out, to sell headline/news/TV viewership.


I don't get any of this. What or who is the "media" at fault here? Phil and Paul for having to fill hours of air time watching people pedal, and so they reach for superlatives and hyperbole, especially when actual drama occurs, as on Stages 16 and 17? The wire services, for reporting what UCI and Phonak tell the public? Sports commentators who say less than fully informed things in relating real sports news to a mass audience?

Individual reportors and news organizations can be held culpable for specific errors and prejudices and distortions, but blaming the entire media for any specific or general problem doesn't make any sense.

[e-RICHIE]

Yes, I don't think we can, or should, so readily exempt ourselves. If this forum was nothing more than random chatter, I would agree with you, it is just our opinion. But, as has been demonstrated time and time again, our words have more power than to simply convey our opinions. By this, I mean that this medium has shown a reliable and predictable ability to influence public thought and opinion. If someone gains stature on this forum, they gain more power to influence. Their words carry more weight. The press works the same way. With that power comes responsibility (something I learned from Spiderman). I agree that many of today's journalist seem to have largely disengaged themselves from the notion of responsibility which in turn leads to the situation we observe today vis a vis the Landis case. I think the same can be said of us. We are all just filling blank space with what are ultimately meaningless words until the facts are in. The difference is that journalist do it to sell what we're buying. We do it for free.


i think this forum is random chatter and in issues of discussion
wrt sports figures, pols, entertainment industry folk, and guys
from the boardroom, the threads here the equal of bar room chat.
we all have a point of view and it's worth the price of admission
atmo. hey - mebbe you could design a fixture that helps us talk
straight to within 3mm plus/minus...

[Archibald]

i think this forum is random chatter and in issues of discussion
wrt sports figures, pols, entertainment industry folk, and guys
from the boardroom, the threads here the equal of bar room chat.
we all have a point of view and it's worth the price of admission
atmo. hey - mebbe you could design a fixture that helps us talk
straight to within 3mm plus/minus...
Disagree. It's bar room chat when it's you and your friends sitting around a table having beers. Once you grab a microphone and announce your opinions to the public at large, it's a whole other sport. Where do you draw the line?

[Grant McLean]

Disagree. It's bar room chat when it's you and your friends sitting around a table having beers. Once you grab a microphone and announce your opinions to the public at large, it's a whole other sport. Where do you draw the line?

dude, it's the internet. you believe in ufo's too?

g

[Archibald]

dude, it's the internet. you believe in ufo's too?

g
Why does my opinion concern you if it's just "the internet?" Nobody's reading, there is no audience, right?

[Grant McLean]

Why does my opinion concern you if it's just "the internet?" Nobody's reading, there is no audience, right?

it doesn't.

it's a sport to display clever retorts for the benefit and amusement of your friends
who are reading.

g

[Big Dan]

I think this dude is jealous of the attention and respect some forum members get..... :cool:

[Archibald]

it doesn't.

it's a sport to display clever retorts for the benefit and amusement of your friends
who are reading.

g
Grant, E-Ritchie and I are having a private conversation here about a subject we both feel is worth discussing. Feel free to join in if you wish. If you don't feel it's a topic worth discussing, pretend I never said anything and just amble down to the clever retort end of the bar where you'll be out of earshot. :)

[Archibald]

I think this dude is jealous of the attention and respect some forum members get..... :cool:
Couldn't be further from the truth, Big Dan. I deeply respect a number of this forum's members and I am not seeking personal attention, quite the opposite. Although I have made pointed comments to bring about discussion, I've treated no one here with disrespect, not even you.

[Big Dan]

Couldn't be further from the truth, Big Dan. I deeply respect a number of this forum's members and I am not seeking personal attention, quite the opposite. Although I have made pointed comments to bring about discussion, I've treated no one here with disrespect, not even you.


Your patronizing overtones are enough........No way to get respect like that.

:no:

[Grant McLean]

Grant, E-Ritchie and I are having a private conversation here about a subject we both feel is worth discussing. Feel free to join in if you wish. If you don't feel it's a topic worth discussing, pretend I never said anything and just amble down to the clever retort end of the bar where you'll be out of earshot. :)

I thought we were are not in a bar?

Didn't you just say: "Disagree. It's bar room chat when it's you and your friends sitting around a table having beers. Once you grab a microphone and announce your opinions to the public at large, it's a whole other sport."

?

Take some hormone and grow a sense of humor.

g

[BBB]

My two cents.

Athletes, and not just cyclists, have been taking drugs or products to improve their performance for ages. The Egyptians for example used the rear hooves of an Abyssinian ***, ground up, boiled in oil and flavoured with rose petals to improve athletic performance (by all accounts). Use of drugs in cycling has been going on for as long as the sport has been going on. While it wasn't always EPO, it was things like alcohol, cocaine and so forth. So the athletes took the drugs in the first place. I can't really comment on whether or not this was reported in the ancient Egyptian media.

However, rightly or wrongly, cycling has played a direct role in the setting up of drug testing and/or regulatory bodies such as WADA. Tom Simpson dying on Mt Ventoux became, in part, the impetous for the IOC to create a Medical Commission and through this a list of banned substances was created and drug testing was put in place for the Olympics in 1968. Likewise, the Festina Affair in the '98 TdF and some widely reported remarks by the IOC President during this race ("Doping is [now] everything that, firstly, is harmful to an athlete's health and, secondly, artifically augments his performance. If it's the second case, for me that's not doping. If it's the first, it is.") resulted in WADA. All these events were reported in the media at the time.

So the athletes take the drugs, the media give it air play and you get organisations such as WADA. But this is history.

Now, athletes continue to take drugs, the media continue to report it, with increasing enthusiasm, and organisations such as WADA thump their chest ever more loudly.

This will continue on ad infinitum.

Perhaps just blame commerce. As noted in this thread, the TdF was set up to sell newspapers. These days athletes get paid vast amounts of money to win and by doing so, provide corporations with the means to sell bikes, shoes, sunglasses etc etc. The media (who get paid money from these very same corporations to advertise bikes, shoes, sunglasses etc etc) need to sell papers and stories about TdF winners coming back from cancer and being dragged in all sorts of drug scandals or TdF winners riding with broken hips, beer, whiskey and testosterone patches seemingly make good copy.

[Elefantino]

media atmo

As a member of the fourth estate, I can say with absolute certainty that I have never, nor will I ever, cause an athlete to dope.

I believe that at one point in my career I may have written that an athlete was a dope, but that's as far as I have gone.

You are wrong, oh welder of great repute. :no:

And another thing: Had the initial report come out had nothing else been written or reported on it, cycling fans would have blamed the media for covering up for an American feel-good story.

You can't win.

[e-RICHIE]

As a member of the fourth estate, I can say with absolute certainty that I have never, nor will I ever, cause an athlete to dope.

I believe that at one point in my career I may have written that an athlete was a dope, but that's as far as I have gone.

You are wrong, oh welder of great repute. :no:
it's finally happy hour here and you're
causing me not to drink since i am posting.
as far as my comment goes, if i knew
a reporter read my stuff, i would have
blamed some other trade. after much
thought, i think it's the cnc workers of
america that cause the doping issue atmo.

[Archibald]

I thought we were are not in a bar?

Didn't you just say: "Disagree. It's bar room chat when it's you and your friends sitting around a table having beers. Once you grab a microphone and announce your opinions to the public at large, it's a whole other sport."

?

Take some hormone and grow a sense of humor.

g
Apparently, irony (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony) is not in your repertoire.

[stevep]

My two cents.

Athletes, and not just cyclists, have been taking drugs or products to improve their performance for ages. The Egyptians for example used the rear hooves of an Abyssinian ***, ground up, boiled in oil and flavoured with rose petals to improve athletic performance (by all accounts). .


bbb, i tried the ground up arse hoof. does nothing. did you see any abyssinians in the top 10? no way. they climb like shiite.
better to woof down 4 beers and a couple of shots.

[BBB]

Didn't see any Egyptians in the top 10 either. I think you may have a point...

[oracle]

you're in the financial world; you should know
better. money and sponsorship drive the sport.
would you pay to watch paid professionals do
what you can do? would you pay to watch yourself
get lapped at well ave atmo?


was that the soviet m.o. as well?

[Grant McLean]

Apparently, irony (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony) is not in your repertoire.

Sure, I ride steel, carbon and Ti.

Maybe if you eased off the disparaging remarks
your elbows would seem less sharp than your wit.

g