S3 road frames?

[gabbard]

True Temper S3 road frames? Do any of you have a frame built from these tubes? If it is everything it is cracked up to be, as far as being pretty light, pretty stiff, but having the ride qualities of steel, then I am impressed.

Price is really not that bad, about $150 more than TT OX Platinum. I realize that it still needs to be done right by the builder, but in the marketplace, you need to win the marketing battle, I see these new steels as reminding folks (general public and racer-types) that steel is still competitive with Ti and Al, and that means more steel frames and builders. And that is good!!!

Steve

[saab2000]

...Anvil Cycles. There is a good discussion there of various tubesets and metalurgy. It is pretty informative and cuts through a lot of the BS which floats around.

[dbrk]

I have a frame that Steve Hampsten sent to me to have a careful look and as a prelim to my incoming Hampsten. This one is a Giro '88 with a threaded fork, match-Paramount lugs, and it includes the S3 tubing upgrade. While I am disinclined to think much about the weight of a bike (since I would prefer that it rides properly and then we consider other factors, like weight...very far down my own list...), this example is really light. I will put it on a scale and get back to you. But I think it is easily the lightest lugged steel bike I have held in my hands despite it being a 60x57. It's really gorgeous, photos to follow.I'm not riding this example so it will be sold as new by Hampsten.

But the question was about S3 and, no, I've not ridden it but I've now seen it all built up: it doesn't seem flimsy at all or too thin in the center of the tt and it looks like it brazed up beautifully.

I'm pretty sure ourpal dnovo has an S33 Waterford that bears review. Snappy and crisp, I believe he says, but not superduper comfy like other steels. This would seem par (which we can only hope at this point Tiger makes to beat the cut today...just goes to show you that the best guys have bad days).


dbrk

[dnovo]

Dr Douglas is correct, both as to my ownership of a Waterford made from S3 tubing and as to my assessment of its ride and performance. I bought one of the new superlight Waterford TIG'd (except for the seatlug) bikes as a shop demo at the end of last season. I ended up paying the price equal to the 03 DA group that was on it at wholesale and got the frame, upgraded paint job (but not one I would have ordered if I was picking it out in advance) and the Alpha Q fork for free. The classic "offer you can't refuse."


As Douglas said, and as I said to him on the phone the other day, very fast, great handling and sharp but well-controlled response to input. The ride is fine, but it lacks the 'plush' feel of my Waterford 2200 or other 853 or OX frames from Waterford etc. There is more 'noise' from the frame when you go over a pothole and more feedback than in a heavier tubeset.

Nothing wrong with that at all, just recoginze that all tubing can't be all things to all people. This is one VERY light and responsive bike, but more of a sprinter than a longe-range touring mount. But isn't that the point of the exercise?

Dave N.

[Climb01742]

dave n, how would you compare the ride of your S3 waterford to your old/now my new :p luigino? thx. climb.

[dnovo]

I wouldn't. The Luigino is smooth and silky. More refined and more relaxed. A Jaguar to a Lotus. Dave N. (enjoy the Luigino. I am glad it went to a good home. And no, still have the unique white/red second generation road version, Jim has my blue first gen while the third gen is still aborning.)

[DWF]

True Temper S3 road frames? Do any of you have a frame built from these tubes? If it is everything it is cracked up to be, as far as being pretty light, pretty stiff, but having the ride qualities of steel, then I am impressed.
Steve
No real issues with S3. Just keep in mind that it is a very lightweight, cutting edge, steel tubeset and while a quality product, it is not immune to the problems therein. If you ride between a 54 & a 58cm frame, it's fine. Because of the limited tubes sizes available, it gets too stiff in small frames and is too light in bigger frames. It is not very tolerant of manufacturing errors so choose a builder who's well experienced in its use.

[Climb01742]

DWF--when new, lighter tube sets like S3 are created, how do they do it? is the lightness achieved primarily thru wall thickness or is the steel itself somehow lighter? is it a factor of steel mass or composition? thanks. :confused:

[dnovo]

They mix helium into the tubing, which causes it to float when you ride. Dave N.

[Climb01742]

dave, shouldn't you be riding or something? ;)

[DWF]

DWF--when new, lighter tube sets like S3 are created, how do they do it? is the lightness achieved primarily thru wall thickness or is the steel itself somehow lighter? is it a factor of steel mass or composition? thanks. :confused:

It's through the reduction of wall thickness. S3 is has a .5/.4/.5 butting profile, meaning it's .5mm thick at the butts and .4mm thick at the thin center sections. Normal lightweight steel tubeset is .7/.4/.7. True Temper feels that due to S3's air-hardening characteristics (which means that it gets stronger after it's welded) they can reduce the butted section gauge and maintain strength and reliability. Columbus went a slightly different route with it's UltraFoco by reducing both the butts and the center section resulting in tubes with a .6/.38/.6 butting profile and radically short tapers. Deda's EOM16.5 uses the same approach.

The S3 approach is better in my mind due to its material characteristics but its super thin butts makes joinery more difficult and less tolerant of errors. Reducing the center section thickness to less than .4mm just makes the tube that more susceptible to denting. Super lightweight steel is just not a good idea for most folks. It's cool, sure, but you start sacrificing ride quality, durability, and toughness. Also due to the high level of heat treating these materials are subjected to to gain the mechanical characteristics required, the material becomes more and more brittle and the failure mode becomes more like aluminum. That said, it's hard to resist tubesets like S3, UltraFoco and EOM16.5 because a sub 3 pound steel frame is just wicked cool.

What I want is the Columbus MAX tubeset recreated in True Temper's new seamless Platinum material.

[Climb01742]

DWF--thanks muchly for detailed answer. :beer:

[vaxn8r]

My Masi Volumetrica is supposedly 0.5 mm straight gauge tubing. I have a variety of small dents along the TT, none of them from crashing it. Typically it got leaned against a wall and left a dent.

Do you think the newer steels are more hardened and thus more dent resistant or same issues?

Do the little TT dents compromise the frame integrity?

Anyone?

[dbrk]

The new tubes is mightily thin in the middle so a good handlebar swipe and you'll be dinged no doubt. But I think they are also pretty tough so perhaps a bit more resistant than recently with some of the thin 90s tubes (Excell comes to mind but that sure was sweet to ride!)

You can ride your bike with these dings without the slightest worry. Steel will not fold or collapse. Should you crash these might be the points of weakness but of all the materials steel is by far the best to crash, meaning it is safe on you (aluminum and carbon are not good for crashing safety...of course). Ride on, vaxn8r, your frame's got plenny of integrity! Gosh I have some old Frejus (uhhh....somewhere down there....) that I dinged up a million times and it still rides sweet as ever. Gives character, I say.

dbrk

[vaxn8r]

That's very reassuring. Thanks DBRK!

[djg]

I know that the dynamics of each crash is different, but a friend's Marcello folded like oragami in a road race crash from which he walked away intact. He loved the bike, and has another on the way, but his own sense is that it's not the heartiest thing in the world. Personally, if I had to lay down a three pound frame, I'd feel much more comfortable doing it with Ti than with super thin walled steel.

[va rider]

Nobody mentioned Serotta's new tubeset for steel, Colombus Niobium. Any ideas as to the durability, thickness, weight? Or, is it just too new.