OT: School

[JAllen]

Fellow Forumites,

Who is currently in college/university? What are you taking? Where do you attend? What is the goal?

Don't feel left out if you've already been through the process. Same questions, but past tense of course. Do you work in your intended field? Would you do it differently if you could go back? Why or why not?

For those of you who didn't/won't go- why or why not?

[paredown]

I'll bite...

I consider myself a cautionary tale about the dangers of overinvesting in education.

I was one of many idealistic guys who were told that a whole generation of professors (mostly hired in the late 60s/early 70s) were hitting retirement age, and there would be tenure track jobs, if we worked hard in graduate school.

Then, in a veritable tsunami of changes, mandatory retirement ended (and most older scholars kept collecting their pay checks), public funding for universities started to dry up, and all universities (public and private) found they could hire "adjuncts" to teach course by course with no benefits and no tenure. A whole generation of people who were trained as scholars and researchers had to figure out what else to do with their lives.

I was too stupid to see the writing on the wall, finished my Phd, and managed to get short-listed (but not interviewed) for exactly one tenure-track job in years of looking...

Hope dies hard--I kept thinking that things would improve, but the recently graduated have the best chance of getting interviews for the increasingly scarce teaching jobs.

The good news--or perhaps the positive result--is a lot of folks managed to take their well-honed research and writing skills and move into other professional careers--one of my friends was the co-founder of a web site that helps counsel the recent casualties about what kinds of jobs may be available, and how to retool to get them.

[8aaron8]

Fellow Forumites,

Who is currently in college/university? What are you taking? Where do you attend? What is the goal?

Don't feel left out if you've already been through the process. Same questions, but past tense of course. Do you work in your intended field? Would you do it differently if you could go back? Why or why not?

For those of you who didn't/won't go- why or why not?

I finished schooling, at least as far as I want to go, a year ago. A long and winding road with the initial intent to be a k-12 school teacher was my goal. My timing was terrible after I received my BA and was working on my multiple subjects credential. The year was 2011 and there were no teaching jobs to be had in California and if you were lucky enough to find a job you were promptly laid off in April before the long hot summer. After having my credential in hand I spent two glorious(sarcasm) years managing classes as a substitute teacher. However, if it weren't for substitute teaching I would have never found the realm of special education. There were and still are plenty of jobs in that field, so I decided to go back to school at a county partnership teacher's college to attain my education specialist credential. I now have been teaching special education for four years and am happy to be in that field versus the day to day classroom teaching. Last year I finished up my masters in education to hopefully down the road open up some new job opportunities.

[gomango]

Last year I finished up my masters in education to hopefully down the road open up some new job opportunities.

I'm down to my last contract teaching middle school math in a magnet school.

It's been a fantastic run for me and hopefully for my students as well.

As I plan on the next step after I retire from the classroom, I find myself jumping right back into action as I begin certification for an Environmental Sciences specialists degree. I don't intend to retire, as I am keenly interested in ESTEM programming in the public schools here in the Twin Cities.

We'll see where this leads.

[Red Tornado]

Fellow Forumites,

Who is currently in college/university? What are you taking? Where do you attend? What is the goal?

Don't feel left out if you've already been through the process. Same questions, but past tense of course. Do you work in your intended field? Would you do it differently if you could go back? Why or why not?

For those of you who didn't/won't go- why or why not?

Graduated in 1993 with a BS in Mechanical Engineering Technology from Purdue University. I have worked as a tool designer, process engineer, product engineer, technical manager (for a small company) and most recently my title is tooling engineer.
I would most certainly do things differently the second time around. Don't know if it's stress, a few bad supervisors, company policies or a combination but I have found myself increasingly unmotivated to do my work over the last several years. This could also be a function of not choosing the right vocation for my personality/temperament/stress management/etc.
I love the money, but really have never found fulfillment in my work.
There are a handful of vocations that have begun to look more attractive in recent years, but unless I go back to school they're not a possibility. Seeing that I have 2 kids in college now and a junior in high school, who plans to attend college, I don't see myself pursuing another degree/vocation anytime soon.
My advice to my kids, "Choose well. You only have to look to the old man to see what life is like being stuck in a vocation you don't like."
There is probably a 75% chance I would go to college again, but for something different than engineering. If I found myself in the right place at the right time, something more of a craft to do where I could still make a decent living, I would def consider jumping on it.

[bmeryman]

I finished my BS in Mechanical Engineering in 2013. Having worked in bike shops throughout high school and college, I decided to try something else and pursue a traditional engineering job. Over the course of a year working at a desk I felt increasingly left out of the cycling world and ultimately returned to the bike shop.

Ultimately I don't know if a different path would have yielded a different outcome, but I'm content with the decisions I've made. If anything, I regret not undertaking more extracurricular fabrication courses from an earlier age (I'm kind of doing that now instead).

[JAllen]

I'm a little late to the education game now that I'm just getting started and almost 30. I did a couple of semesters at Portland Community College for a few civil engineering prerequisites before moving out here. I've since decided to switch gears, and I'm now working towards a BA in Psychology with a minor in either English, religion, and/or philosophy. Either way, I will focus on the topic I didn't pick for a minor with electives. I'm currently at Calhoun Community College. I'd like to go nearby Athens State for my BA. Whereafter, I will attend a seminary or Bible college that has a CACREP approved marriage and family counseling program. I would have to decide whether or not I'd want to go for a PhD to teach while still providing care.

[batman1425]

BA molecular biology (4yrs) , fellowship in biomedical research (1yr), PhD in microbiology (5.5yrs), postdoc 1 (2yrs), postdoc 2 (1.5yrs currently, have 1.5yrs of funding left).

Goal is to be a professor at a small liberal arts college. Primary teaching focus, small research program that can be executed by me and a few part-time undergrads.

Toward the end of my BA, NIH research funds were at an all time high. Graduate programs were desperate for students to take advantage of the relatively easy to obtain funding. Graduate programs were growing at crazy rates. Students in my generation were all told that funding would continue to be great and the baby boomer scientists are all getting ready to retire so there will be a lot of academic and teaching jobs opening up when we hit the market.

Since then, research funding tanked, a fraction of the expected retirees actually retired and even those that did, universities have in many cases not re-filled those positions due to the funding climate. The small liberal arts college jobs were already competitive, but the dearth of traditional academic positions and crappy funding situation has pushed more people toward small schools because of the reduced research and external funding requirements. Not uncommon for a quality small school to get 500+ applications for 1 position, and these schools only need one or two faculty in a specific discipline. The turnover is also very low. Once someone lands one of those jobs they very rarely give it up and lateral movement to other small schools is very difficult. The outlook it so bad, I am heavily considering getting out of science all together and going back to school to learn to do something else.

If I could do it all over, knowing what I do now, I would probably have gone into engineering or a trade of some kind. I like working with my hands and making things.

[Ralph]

One of my 40 year old relatives (niece) just finished nursing school in a local hospital program.....then they made her a job offer....she accepted. She had a BA in something or other from years ago. I kinda thought that was smart on her part. Her hours are sorta crappy until she gets some seniority....but hey....she has a good job now. Can support herself and her daughter. Who said life was going to be easy?

[BlueFly]

JAllen - don't think you are too late for going back to school. Our oldest daughter first got a BA in English (she thought she wanted to go to med school). After working for the State of Maryland in Annapolis (5+ yrs), she got bored. Went back to Nursing school (1.5yr). Graduated and worked for 2+ years, got married and is now a full time mom. She is 35.

I received my BS in Computer Science some time ago. Getting burned out but the $$$ keeps me in the game. In the last 10 years alone, I must have contemplated changing careers at least half-a-dozen times.

I actually think you have some advantage over young people in the program. Just having life experience with some time under your belt may give you a more "enlightened" perspective of what you really want to do and the importance of hard work.

Good luck!
:hello:

I'm a little late to the education game now that I'm just getting started and almost 30. I did a couple of semesters at Portland Community College for a few civil engineering prerequisites before moving out here. I've since decided to switch gears, and I'm now working towards a BA in Psychology with a minor in either English, religion, and/or philosophy. Either way, I will focus on the topic I didn't pick for a minor with electives. I'm currently at Calhoun Community College. I'd like to go nearby Athens State for my BA. Whereafter, I will attend a seminary or Bible college that has a CACREP approved marriage and family counseling program. I would have to decide whether or not I'd want to go for a PhD to teach while still providing care.

[Geeheeb]

was a linux system admin and hated it, went back to school at 35 for nursing at community college and taking the licensing exam in two weeks. I have a lot of okay job offers, but no great ones. Im starting my BSN in the summer, and then on to a masters in informatics.

[christian]

I graduated in 1997 with a BA in Economics from Chicago. I went there because it was the best econ program in the country, and I thought I wanted to be an academic economist, but was disabused of that notion pretty quickly.

It was ok, but not terribly inspiring; did a decent job of churning out liberal arts drones who were at least familiar with the Peloponnesian War. After that I worked as a consultant in a big 5 consulting firm, for a dot com, as a professional rally co-driver and as a risk officer for a bank and now as a risk officer for a fintech company. I don't know that my degree was particularly qualifying for anything other than getting into a fairly competitive analyst program at a consulting firm. That said, that set my career into motion and led fairly directly to where I am now, with a nice house in a nice town and some nice bikes. I have no complaints.

[joosttx]

BA Biology minor in art and anthropology
MS Entomology
PhD Entomology w a Fulbright
PostDoc Entomology
This landed me a job as a Field Biologist for an Ag Company where I climbed the ladder in Product Dev, Bus Dev to now I run a business division. I am basically doing what I aimed to do from college when I made the decision not to go to medical school.

BTW I am excellent at iding bugs via facebook

[jasonification]

Currently halfway through a5 year doctorate program in clinical psychology at Azusa Pacific University. Totally enjoying my practicum work but my dissertation is eating up a ton of my time. Goal is to hopefully work in a college counseling center and teach! Fingers crossed...

[yarg]

These posts make me worry about the prospects of my son who is in his first year of a math phd program with the hope of being a college professor. Oh well it will be interesting to see what forks in the road his path has and whether he chooses the left, right, high or low.

[unterhausen]

my son wants to be a math professor as well. Hate to discourage him. He seems realistic about it. I have tried to get him to go on industrial internships. He's just in his second year as an undergrad and he just got permission to take a grad level course. I have my reservations about that, even though he taught himself the undergrad version of the course. He's really good at teaching himself. Right now, he's learning Chinese and Latin for fun.

I'm very much against wasting time in school, with a strong emphasis on the word "wasting". If there is a way to shortcut the schooling, that's the approach to take. There is always some extra accomplishment that can be achieved with a little extra schooling, skipping that is almost always the best course of action. My daughter really wanted to get an honors degree, but now it looks like she's never going to finish. That doesn't make me happy at all, but she has a different path that seems to suit her better.

[joosttx]

my son wants to be a math professor as well. Hate to discourage him. He seems realistic about it. I have tried to get him to go on industrial internships. He's just in his second year as an undergrad and he just got permission to take a grad level course. I have my reservations about that, even though he taught himself the undergrad version of the course. He's really good at teaching himself. Right now, he's learning Chinese and Latin for fun.

I'm very much against wasting time in school, with a strong emphasis on the word "wasting". If there is a way to shortcut the schooling, that's the approach to take. There is always some extra accomplishment that can be achieved with a little extra schooling, skipping that is almost always the best course of action. My daughter really wanted to get an honors degree, but now it looks like she's never going to finish. That doesn't make me happy at all, but she has a different path that seems to suit her better.

If someone loves what they do they will be successful at it. I am a true believer in that. You may not the best but successful and more important happy. Life is too short to make your Daddy happy.

[echappist]

If someone loves what they do they will be successful at it. I am a true believer in that. You may not the best but successful and more important happy. Life is too short to make your Daddy happy.

happiness doesn't pay the mortgage or the student loan, which in itself leads to life stresses. It's not about making the parents happy, but rather making decisions with which one's future self would be content.

one doesn't need to do what one loves. One needs to be dedicated to one's endeavour, preferably in a field that provides sufficient renumeration. There are not enough Cassandras in our society dissuading people from placing the risky bet when there isn't a back-up route. Going to a graduate program in fine art and come out with 80k in debt? Follow one's dream, of course!

I left my chemistry doctoral program four years ago to start working full time and have just defended my thesis last month. My job doesn't require my current degree, and it is no one's idea of a dream job (and often the butt of jokes); however, it sure (more than) pays the bills and allows me to save for retirement and a down payment. I actually really like teaching, but the truth is i'd be making 60% what i'm making now if i were to take a job as a lecturer, and i'm not sure i'd be all that happy about it.

i should add that years ago i really liked research, however, my sample size was not representative as undergrad research and summer internship aren't anywhere close to what happens in grad school. I still like to read about science and admire the tenacity and intelligence of scientists, but i've long ago realized that i'm not cut out for a career as a bench scientist.

[djg]

Fellow Forumites,

Who is currently in college/university? What are you taking? Where do you attend? What is the goal?

Don't feel left out if you've already been through the process. Same questions, but past tense of course. Do you work in your intended field? Would you do it differently if you could go back? Why or why not?

For those of you who didn't/won't go- why or why not?

Who is in college or university? My eldest kid, in Williamsburg, Virginia.

For me it's very much past tense, although I played at being in college as a visiting scholar in Massachusetts a couple of years ago.

Planning, goals, career path? Let's call it a career random walk, although it's all gone fine. I don't know that I had concrete plans although I did have interests and at least a couple of ideas about a major. A major I did not anticipate led to a PhD program and teaching -- a humanities major (albeit with a fair bit of mathematics, which is a subject I had thought I might pursue all along) somehow led me through teaching positions to a laboratory at NIH, which naturally led me to law school and, at 41, a new career or so. So . . . a bit over a dozen years of full-time teaching, some private sector law stuff, government law and policy stuff (paying a fair bit of attention to economics, which is something I thought I might do when I went off to college in 1978).

My goal? Get paid to do interesting and useful work. Put my 3 kids through college. So far, so good. Retirement? Not sure. Most days I really want to keep working, even if I'd like a bit more free time week-by-week and a little more vacation time each year. Some days I want to retire immediately.

I've actually had young persons inquire about my career path and I've learned not to laugh. I think that acquiring some good tools is incredibly useful, as is an open mind and some resiliency. In that sense, I did some things right and had some fortunate dispositions. But I've probably been lucky at various times -- lucky on top of the circumstances-of-birth luck thing. Started at Dartmouth College way back when -- my first choice, and a good one, if not necessarily the best one I could have made. I might do certain things differently if I had to do it again, but I don't have to, or get to, and what the hell -- it's all good and I don't really have any regrets.

[AngryScientist]

this is a really interesting question, and one i have a lot of thoughts about.

i'm happy to say that i'm in a field that beyond an initial degree which opens some doors, work experience trumps advanced degrees pretty much across the board.

it's probably not a popular opinion, but in general i think time spent in school is a waste of time and money. sometimes a necessary evil to get the credentials you need to start a career, but every hour/year spent going to class is time that is not spent developing real world experience.

i've watched friends go into massive debt, and come out with near worthless degrees that dont turn into paychecks.

everyone should be happy and pursue a career that they are happy with and fulfilling, but a career should not necessarily be confused with a hobby. money does not equal happiness, but most people are not going to be happy scraping by and barely able to pay bills and keep the kids under a safe roof with every meal a sure thing.

not discouraging higher education in any way, just be sure to have a good plan and the end game in mind. once you cant see the light at the end of the tunnel, it's time to take a different train IMO.

[fa63]

After about 10 years in consulting, I went back to school to pursue a PhD in Civil Engineering. Just started my 4th year of the PhD. In hindsight, I don't think the PhD is going to benefit me much (as I have decided not to go to academia), but I have been in it for too long now to turn back. I also do some consulting work on the side to keep things interesting and to contribute to the household finances.

[MattTuck]

This is a bit of thread drift, and I apologize, but it dovetails with some of the sentiment on this thread.

A 'college education' encapsulates a number of components, not all of which are needed by every student.

First, there is the psychological and social maturity aspects that come from leaving home and living on one's own in a semi-supported environment. Some people need this more than others, and some seem to get very little from that aspect of the experience.

Second, there is the actual knowledge transfer that occurs. This is where the rubber meets the road, so to speak, in terms of developing capabilities, understanding and expertise in a particular subject.

Third, there is the 'credential' aspect of the experience. Right now, colleges are accredited by some organization that says their programs are up to snuff, and thus the students that graduate are 'credentialed'. In some fields, you need the credentials to get in the door.


As many of you may know, college prices have gone out of control in the last 30 years. There has been an absolute flood of money coming into the higher ed sector, a lot of it is debt financed. I've heard a lot of ideas focused on how to make college cheaper for students/parents, by doing grants, or even creating new entitlement programs.

In my opinion, the single most effective way to curb the cost of higher ed would be to credential the student, not the institution. In other words, if you want a degree in Biology, the only thing you need to do is pass a single (or a series of) competency based exams, and you will be awarded a competency based degree. Whether you go to Harvard to learn the material, or learn it from taking books out of the public library and reading it at home, if you have the knowledge, you should be able to get the degree. And this would put tremendous pressure on higher ed institutions to be more efficient with their dollars.

Anyway, my 2 cents.

Debt sucks. If you are thinking about taking on a lot of debt to pursue school, I'd reconsider. If you can do it for free or cheap, or pay as you go, it is a different thing altogether.

[Lurvey]

I'm a student currently. I'm in my 4th year of undergrad studying design at the Nova Scotia College of Art and Design. My experience has been good so far. This past summer and fall semester I was in Minneapolis on exchange studying at MCAD. Going from a school that costs $6,000CAD/year to one that costs $20,000USD/semester was pretty wild (I still paid my NSCAD tuition while on exchange.) Definitely had access to some resources that weren't available to me in Halifax. Not to mention some of the faculty they had. Wonderful experience, I feel like the most personal progress that I've made was while on exchange.

My goal is to find a job in studio in a large US city. Being in Minneapolis, I had two short-term "real" design jobs. So I feel like that really helped put me in a good position as I approach graduation. Before going to Halifax I worked at a Portland-based hub and headset manufacturer and spent one summer at a cool airport carpet sock company, so returning to the cycling industry is one direction I'm interested in.

[GregL]

This thread is timely, as my daughter is a high school senior awaiting response from the colleges to which she has applied. My advise to you is the same that I have given to her:

- Work toward a career that balances passion for your intended work AND supports the lifestyle you aspire to. In my case, aerospace engineering has provided a rewarding (though sometimes stressful) career with a good lifestyle for me and my family. Not perfect, but a good balance overall.

- Don't be afraid to change your educational/career path. I was a professional pilot for ten years. It was great for me (technical, travel, etc...), but completely at odds with my family goals. I miss flying, but could not imagine being away from my family so much. Another bonus: the engineering career allows much more cycling!

- Whatever educational path you choose, make sure to include a cost/benefit analysis in your planning. My undergraduate degree was worth $40K in the early-mid 1980s. Entry-level engineering jobs at the time made $25-$30K. You could reasonably expect to pay off student loans easily in 4-10 years. I couldn't imagine coming out of college today with $100K or more in loans. Look for colleges/universities that provide a good payback for your investment!

Good luck!

Greg

[notsew]

re: the folks with kids getting advanced math degrees, at least that's one they can make a pile of money with in the private sector (if done correctly) if academia doesn't work out.

[Bostic]

was a linux system admin and hated it, went back to school at 35 for nursing at community college and taking the licensing exam in two weeks. I have a lot of okay job offers, but no great ones. Im starting my BSN in the summer, and then on to a masters in informatics.

I'm in the process of learning Linux on a deeper level to expand my knowledge. Been an IT System Admin for many years but always focused on Windows and Mac. It's tough to fully embrace as my day to day job doesn't fully require using Linux so I'm trying to force myself to use it.

As far as school, I never went to college. Right after high school I was working full time to help support my mother. Bought Dos and Windows 3.1 for Dummies to teach myself computers and went from there. Trying to earn a living as a musician just isn't practical and living in the Bay Area all the more so.

[jlwdm]

I had no idea what I wanted to do when I got out of high school, but I was expected to go to college - my parents did not go to college and expected it of their 3 children.

I started as a math, chemistry and physics major and it seemed like everyone else in my classes knew what they wanted to do- become doctors or dentists. Every grade was really important to them and all I cared about was playing golf on the free 9 hole course at school. I ended up in accounting as it was easy, still without a plan.

I guess I got some personal growth experiences from going to college, but during high school I played a lot of golf and hung out with adults at the golf club as much as with kids my age.

If I was starting over today I would not go to college until I had an idea of what I wanted to do.

Much to my parents chagrin I went to work on golf course maintenance for a year after college and had a lot of fun and saved a bunch of money. I then decided to take a year off - life was simple and inexpensive then.

My best friend is from a family of attorneys and was going to take the LSAT and talked me in to going with him to take the test on the other side of the state where his sister lived - and call it a vacation. The next thing I knew we were in law school together and went to summer school and finished in two years. I was an attorney for 9 years, moved to another state for about 4 years for real estate sales and then returned to be an attorney for another 8 years. Even though I am not an attorney any more (moved to two other states for real estate) my legal education has been valuable in everything I have done.

When I was hiring attorneys I found that the most important attributes were common sense and the ability to deal with people. Golf was good for me because when I started at the Prosecuting Attorney's Office (where I grew up) I knew all of the Superior Court judges from the golf course and I was a lot better than them.

Throughout my career I have felt common sense, dealing well the people and working hard were more important than my education (except the need to be an attorney - bar membership required).

The last job I applied for was out of law school. Every job I have had since has been offered to me and this includes moving from one state to another four times.

I think the value of an education depends a lot on what career path you want to follow.

Education was less expensive when I went to school and I did not have a car or many expenses. I had all loans paid off within the first year of graduating from law school. Although the first eight months I was working I did not have a car.

Jeff

[rkhatibi]

I'm in the process of learning Linux on a deeper level to expand my knowledge. Been an IT System Admin for many years but always focused on Windows and Mac. It's tough to fully embrace as my day to day job doesn't fully require using Linux so I'm trying to force myself to use it.

As far as school, I never went to college. Right after high school I was working full time to help support my mother. Bought Dos and Windows 3.1 for Dummies to teach myself computers and went from there. Trying to earn a living as a musician just isn't practical and living in the Bay Area all the more so.

You might try setting up Puppet on Linux as a way to automate some of the Windows/OSX tasks. It's sort of dropping you in the deep end, but I find that a useful goal helps make deliberate practice happen. Setting up a blog/wiki, load balancer, mail server, ticketing system, etc are all interesting problems and relatively simple to accomplish on Linux systems. Happy to discuss privately.

I flunked out of college as my third year into Mech Eng in '93. I hated the major and was too blind to quit or change majors. Tried community college a few times in the same subject and just never found it interesting. In '96 I bought my first computer and got a job doing dialup support a few months later. Once I started doing system administration a year later I was hooked. Luckily I bumbled into a industry that was months away from exploding and was onboarding anyone with a pulse. Today I recommend anyone entering the field to get a BS strictly for the foundation.

I've considered going back for a masters in systems science, but uninterested in completing a BS. The writing part of an MS puts me off as well, but getting to the point in my career where deeper understanding of systems would be beneficial.

[d_douglas]

You are definitely not too late to the game in terms of education. I finished my undergrad at 27 and started my M.Arch degree at 30, then took five years to finish (too long!). It was a grind, but in the end, people live and work for a long time these days, so if you don't finish before 35, its not the end of the world at all!

I now work in a related field that doesn't require the amount of education that I have, but it was everything leading up to now that has gotten me into this position. I will be working for another 20+ years now and my course is by and large set, but that is good for my personality.

Its where I want to be: decent pay, good benefits, relatively speaking - lots of time to ride bikes, chase my kids, chase my wife, you know - the good things in life :)

I was in your position not so long ago - be visionary!

[Llewellyn]

this is a really interesting question, and one i have a lot of thoughts about.

i'm happy to say that i'm in a field that beyond an initial degree which opens some doors, work experience trumps advanced degrees pretty much across the board.

it's probably not a popular opinion, but in general i think time spent in school is a waste of time and money. sometimes a necessary evil to get the credentials you need to start a career, but every hour/year spent going to class is time that is not spent developing real world experience.

i've watched friends go into massive debt, and come out with near worthless degrees that dont turn into paychecks.

everyone should be happy and pursue a career that they are happy with and fulfilling, but a career should not necessarily be confused with a hobby. money does not equal happiness, but most people are not going to be happy scraping by and barely able to pay bills and keep the kids under a safe roof with every meal a sure thing.


not discouraging higher education in any way, just be sure to have a good plan and the end game in mind. once you cant see the light at the end of the tunnel, it's time to take a different train IMO.

This :beer:

I believe that the value of a tertiary education has been degraded over time in a quest by government to get as many people through university as possible just so they can say "we've put x thousands of people through university, aren't we great". It means you have more people with qualifications, but not necessarily people who are good at a particular job. University will give you the theory or practice, but getting out and doing the job will give you the skills and experience that will be of most value to an employer.

Just for the record, I have an "advanced diploma" not a degree, that took me a long time to plod through. And while it means I'll never work for a listed company, none of my clients has ever asked about what qualifications I have for the job I do. And as long as I do the work, none of them seem to care either.

[OtayBW]

I'm all for everybody finding the type and level of education that makes sense for them. And without trying to get too campy (no pun), I like Joseph Campbell's advice to 'follow your bliss' - hopefully finding something you love that still pays the bills (my addition).

That said - and a little off-topic - we are becoming one of the most undereducated developed countries in the world, at all education levels. We train the worlds Ph.D.s through the H1B and then they return home. Someone around here needs to become the braintrust for this country, so if some academic or intellectual or technical pursuit is your bliss, then go for it.

Some unsolicited advice to the OP: You seem to be someone who noodles around (I certainly could be wrong....), and if so, I would encourage you go take your plan and get on the railroad tracks. It is certainly not too late to begin some endeavor.

I waited until quite late even to start toward my undergraduate degree, and then after that, I held a full-time job at the university while finishing my other degrees over the course of 11 years! I've done a ton of things in my field over time and have gained a ton of unique experience, but now I run a research program at one of the National Labs. For me, I'm doing the science that I love in the company of some world-class colleagues. I'm not getting rich, but I'm not doing too bad either (I will report back on that a few weeks after the inauguration, but I digress.....).

So in short: go for it! Maybe you'll need to change your mind, but then maybe you'll have the gumption to stick with something worthwhile even if the going gets tough. If it's not right - that's fine - but don't make all this mind-changing your lifestyle....

[joosttx]

Man, kind of depressing. This is what I know without my liberal arts education and my desire to study insects I would not have been able to:
1) make our environment safer
2) protect our food sercurity
3) mentor the young and create jobs for others
4) Champion the hard working and kind hearted
5) earn enough to send my kids to college (wife is an attorney so I got help)
6) enjoy the wonders of nature on so many levels from philosophical, artistic to science it blows my f'ing mind sometimes.
7) give back to my community

You got to do what you love, not be afraid of your fears, not be limited by your insecurities, know your limits and give, give, give, love, love, love.

[marciero]

man, kind of depressing. This is what i know without my liberal arts education and my desire to study insects i would not have been able to:
1) make our environment safer
2) protect our food sercurity
3) mentor the young and create jobs for others
4) champion the hard working and kind hearted
5) earn enough to send my kids to college (wife is an attorney so i got help)
6) enjoy the wonders of nature on so many levels from philosophical, artistic to science it blows mind f'ing mind sometimes.
7) give back to my community

you got to do what you love, not be afraid of your fears, not be limited by your insecurities, know your limits and give, give, give, love, love, love.

POTD. And thank you for so succinctly capturing some of the value of a liberal arts education; the ugrad as well as the advanced degree part.

[djg]

my son wants to be a math professor as well. Hate to discourage him. He seems realistic about it. I have tried to get him to go on industrial internships. He's just in his second year as an undergrad and he just got permission to take a grad level course. I have my reservations about that, even though he taught himself the undergrad version of the course. He's really good at teaching himself. Right now, he's learning Chinese and Latin for fun.

I'm very much against wasting time in school, with a strong emphasis on the word "wasting". If there is a way to shortcut the schooling, that's the approach to take. There is always some extra accomplishment that can be achieved with a little extra schooling, skipping that is almost always the best course of action. My daughter really wanted to get an honors degree, but now it looks like she's never going to finish. That doesn't make me happy at all, but she has a different path that seems to suit her better.

I'm against wasting time too, but what is it about his use of his time that makes it wasted? What is it that you want your kid to do besides participate in some sort of industrial internship or two or seven. He's what, 19? Doing well? Taking advanced math courses while learning languages and . . . what's the problem? I don't know your kid or the future and I'm in no position to say whether your son should stay in school for two more hours or eight more years, but if he acquires the ability to gain admission to a good math PhD program he will, in the process, acquire the ability to do all sorts of things besides that PhD program. I don't mean to make light of tuition or opportunity costs for that matter, but what else is there to win by taking shortcuts? And why assume that nothing is given up?

[mjb266]

Man, kind of depressing. This is what I know without my liberal arts education and my desire to study insects I would not have been able to...You got to do what you love, not be afraid of your fears, not be limited by your insecurities, know your limits and give, give, give, love, love, love.

As someone in year 7 or 8 of a four year PhD program, I'll say that it isn't the specific information that you learn that makes you valuable...it's the ability to think critically, the ability to identify a problem accurately, to utilize information (data) to inform decisions surrounding that problem. They might be stupid little problems like turnover of part-time employees at a business, or they may be huge problems like the educational inequity in the country.

I will say, that in all of the degrees and schooling that my wife and I have engaged in (23 years at universities alone), there isn't one educational experience that we regret. The time at a college or university is an opportunity for personal growth/learning, and those opportunities are ones in which you can reinvent yourself, trade ideas with other engaged and informed individuals, and consider the broader world that exists beyond the myopic workplace we all exist in.

[OtayBW]

I'll say that it isn't the specific information that you learn that makes you valuable...it's the ability to think critically, the ability to identify a problem accurately, to utilize information (data) to inform decisions surrounding that problem.Exactly. This is almost the 'definition' of doctoral work.

[marciero]

As someone in year 7 or 8 of a four year PhD program, I'll say that it isn't the specific information that you learn that makes you valuable...it's the ability to think critically, the ability to identify a problem accurately, to utilize information (data) to inform decisions surrounding that problem. They might be stupid little problems like turnover of part-time employees at a business, or they may be huge problems like the educational inequity in the country.

I will say, that in all of the degrees and schooling that my wife and I have engaged in (23 years at universities alone), there isn't one educational experience that we regret. The time at a college or university is an opportunity for personal growth/learning, and those opportunities are ones in which you can reinvent yourself, trade ideas with other engaged and informed individuals, and consider the broader world that exists beyond the myopic workplace we all exist in.

More good stuff. "Job training" and job experience does not often get at this. Yes, there are plenty of jobs-good jobs- for those with specific competencies such as coding in specific languages (though that has become increasingly commoditized and high-turnover) But rather than training people to fit nicely into existing jobs, market structures, and institutions, a liberal education frees the mind-that's the "liberal" part- and prepares students to question and change those structures for the common good. That's the idea anyway. Do we really need more people optimizing algorithms for high-frequency trading or internet advertising exchanges (you know-the ads that follow you around) Please-I mean no disrespect to anyone that does this. As a mathematician and academic (university professor, Ph.D) I think these are great problems with some very interesting mathematics, and worthy of study for their own sake.

Now, whether colleges are actually preparing students to "think critically" and change the world is another question. William Deresiewicz has written a lot on this topic. Here is one example http://harpers.org/archive/2015/09/the-neoliberal-arts/

Of course, students need to be prepared to fit into existing jobs. In working on curriculum at my school I've thought a lot about this. With as many as 30% of colleges expected to close their doors in the coming years by some estimates, a lot of schools are thinking about this, and also how to communicate the value of lib arts education to prospective students and parents who want to know what jobs they can get when they graduate. The Deresiewicz article describes what, in his view, many schools are doing. (You need only read the subtitle-"How College Sold its Soul to the Market" to get the general idea.) In my work over the last year+ developing a new BS program in the mathematical sciences I've talked regularly and worked with over a dozen technology employers, and the irony is that when they describe the ideal job candidate, it sounds like liberal arts. Yes, you need to know some programming basics, but they all say they will train employees in whatever platforms or languages they are using. This stuff changes so rapidly anyway. They all want "critical thinkers".

Contrast this with programs such as "coding boot camps". My own institution has developed a series of short, blended/online programs which are non-credit, non-degree, which deliver specific competencies for the local technology market. They are very inexpensive and tuition assistance in the form of federal grants-not loans- is available. It may be that some students may be better served, at least in the short term, by that rather than the new four-year program I am working on. This depends on many factors.

[marciero]

my son wants to be a math professor as well. Hate to discourage him. He seems realistic about it. I have tried to get him to go on industrial internships. He's just in his second year as an undergrad and he just got permission to take a grad level course. I have my reservations about that, even though he taught himself the undergrad version of the course. He's really good at teaching himself. Right now, he's learning Chinese and Latin for fun.

I'm very much against wasting time in school, with a strong emphasis on the word "wasting". If there is a way to shortcut the schooling, that's the approach to take. There is always some extra accomplishment that can be achieved with a little extra schooling, skipping that is almost always the best course of action. My daughter really wanted to get an honors degree, but now it looks like she's never going to finish. That doesn't make me happy at all, but she has a different path that seems to suit her better.
my son wants to be a math professor as well. Hate to discourage him. He seems realistic about it. I have tried to get him to go on industrial internships. He's just in his second year as an undergrad and he just got permission to take a grad level course. I have my reservations about that, even though he taught himself the undergrad version of the course. He's really good at teaching himself. Right now, he's learning Chinese and Latin for fun.


Advanced study in any discipline is really a calling. You gotta love it.
I experienced what paredown describes. Rather than job vacancies from retirement, you would have hundreds of applicants for university jobs. Where are all these Ph.Ds coming from?? Well, part of that is from candidates using shotgun approach and just sending out a hundred applications. Still, the job market was very tight.

I think it's always good to have options, and would encourage your son to have an open mind and not dismiss non-academic career paths. One of the great things about being a professor is being able to do research. But with a Ph.D. there are many jobs in industry, business, health, government, etc. that give the opportunity to do research level, publishable, original mathematics. Your son is interested in languages. Natural language processing is a very hot area of mathematics research. Everyone from the Twitters, Facebooks, and Googles, to government/intelligence community is interested in that.

[paredown]

One thing that I have been struck by over the years is how much the story of American mobility from the 1950s on has been tied to first the GI Bill and the chance that it gave all of those soldiers coming back from WWII and Korea to aim high and attend college--many of them the first in their families to do so...

And it is still true that our society wants to see proof of ability in the form of a college degree--and a decent degree from a decent school is critical for "working class" kids who want to get ahead. I read this piece with interest about the City College system in NY yesterday:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/18/opinion/sunday/americas-great-working-class-colleges.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-right-region&region=opinion-c-col-right-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-right-region&_r=0

There are some new wrinkles though--the cost of education has spiraled out of control, even for what Leonhardt calls "working class colleges" like City College, there has been an explosion of 'for profit' schools who under deliver (and overcharge) leaving their student indebted and unemployed and a general suspicion that even decent colleges are not delivering the same quality of education that they were 30 years ago.

IT (as other folks have mentioned) has been one of the few ways that non-college educated folks have been able to do fairly well (can't find the study, but it was a lengthy piece on the decline in real wages for the typical hourly worker since the '70s)--and probably still is, but I have not been in the field for a while so I defer to those who have recent experience.

The other wrinkle--the shortage of people who can make, repair and maintain--the technical skills. The typical construction crew now is typically majority immigrant in my experience--and our current education system, with the 'everyone smart goes to college' is failing the kids who used to get picked up by vocational schools and earn a decent (or even a really good) income in the trades.

[djg]

As someone in year 7 or 8 of a four year PhD program, I'll say that it isn't the specific information that you learn that makes you valuable...it's the ability to think critically, the ability to identify a problem accurately, to utilize information (data) to inform decisions surrounding that problem. ..

But you don't know if it's year 7 or 8?

Sorry . . . I know that there might be reasons for ambiguity about that but the joke was just sitting there.

I like your list and I'd add the ability to do research -- there's the hunting and gathering of information as well as its processing. Different programs emphasize different research tools, to be sure, but at some point, there's a connection between identifying problems and the methods by which you seek answers.

[echappist]

Now, whether colleges are actually preparing students to "think critically" and change the world is another question. William Deresiewicz has written a lot on this topic. Here is one example http://harpers.org/archive/2015/09/the-neoliberal-arts/

Of course, students need to be prepared to fit into existing jobs. In working on curriculum at my school I've thought a lot about this. With as many as 30% of colleges expected to close their doors in the coming years by some estimates, a lot of schools are thinking about this, and also how to communicate the value of lib arts education to prospective students and parents who want to know what jobs they can get when they graduate. The Deresiewicz article describes what, in his view, many schools are doing. (You need only read the subtitle-"How College Sold its Soul to the Market" to get the general idea.) In my work over the last year+ developing a new BS program in the mathematical sciences I've talked regularly and worked with over a dozen technology employers, and the irony is that when they describe the ideal job candidate, it sounds like liberal arts.

is the bolded part supposed to be a double entendre?


Yes, you need to know some programming basics, but they all say they will train employees in whatever platforms or languages they are using. This stuff changes so rapidly anyway. They all want "critical thinkers".

Liberal arts and critical thinking are not synonymous. To do well in the traditional liberal art fields of studies, one need to be good at critical thinking; however, one can be a good scientist or engineer without being the least bit interested in the traditional liberal arts fields of language, arts, philosophy, and history.

To be able to think critically just means that one approaches a problem with the fundamental understanding that there may be numerous solutions to the problem, and all of them have potential drawbacks. More fundamentally (perhaps ironic in this usage), it's a way of thinking that leads away from dogma. I'd be the last person to bash the traditional liberal art fields of study, but you don't need to read the Iliad or understand the significant of the numerous renderings of la Pieta to be able to think critically. A chemist merely has to appreciate the fact that there are so many reagents that nominally accomplishes the same transformation to understand that each specific method of transformation has its own limitations and drawbacks.

I think you are also underestimating the difficulty in learning computer languages. Though approaches to a solution may differ, the actual implementation is highly rigorous and methodical, and it does not lend to hand waving the way one may BS through an English or history class.

With all that said, I highly value the liberal art fields despite being a scientist. If nothing else, they make for fine avocation and hobbies and are great topics of discussion at dinner parties.

[echappist]

But you don't know if it's year 7 or 8?

Sorry . . . I know that there might be reasons for ambiguity about that but the joke was just sitting there.

I like your list and I'd add the ability to do research -- there's the hunting and gathering of information as well as its processing. Different programs emphasize different research tools, to be sure, but at some point, there's a connection between identifying problems and the methods by which you seek answers.

the OP is loath to the possibility of feline sacrifice to ascertain if it's 7 or 8

sorry, horribly bad nerd joke

[batman1425]

Advanced study in any discipline is really a calling. You gotta love it.
I experienced what paredown describes. Rather than job vacancies from retirement, you would have hundreds of applicants for university jobs. Where are all these Ph.Ds coming from?? Well, part of that is from candidates using shotgun approach and just sending out a hundred applications. Still, the job market was very tight.

I think it's always good to have options, and would encourage your son to have an open mind and not dismiss non-academic career paths. One of the great things about being a professor is being able to do research. But with a Ph.D. there are many jobs in industry, business, health, government, etc. that give the opportunity to do research level, publishable, original mathematics. Your son is interested in languages. Natural language processing is a very hot area of mathematics research. Everyone from the Twitters, Facebooks, and Googles, to government/intelligence community is interested in that.

I think this sums up a few points nicely and I'll add a couple more. Encourage anyone that is going down the graduate school pipeline to get a lot of CURRENT and DIVERSE opinions of tracks and trajectories for successful people in the various career paths that you are interested in with your degree. In academia, you are surrounded by people who love academia and knowingly or not, they tend to steer their students to what they know, love, and were successful at. Your graduate mentor may be brilliant and you respect the crap out of them, but that doesn't mean they know anything about transitioning to industry, government, etc. So find those people, ask how they got where they are, what you could do to follow those paths, and do as much of that as possible to keep your career options open later. He may not be interested in a given track now, but employment landscapes in these highly specialized and technical fields are constantly changing and evolving. Job prospects when he graduates may be very different than what they are now and one should be ready for that.

For example: In biomedical sciences (my field) industry is set up to take a very specific kind of PhD. It is the person that did a few years at the BA or MA level in industry (or at the very least some high functioning internships) before deciding to go back to get a PhD. They have the basic experience everyone in industry needs (GMP, GLP, QA, QC, etc.) and they have the PhD thinking and problem solving skills to function independently at a high level. This is very valuable to industry as it significantly reduces investment costs to get a naive PhD up to speed and provides evidence that the candidate will be successful in an industrial environment, having done so previously. An alternative is to pick a graduate program/lab that integrates these concepts into your research and works on industrial applicable projects - pathway engineering for example if you want to work for a big pharma. Many academic institutions don't make these things clear, and lots of students miss the boat, myself included. I didn't thing industry was for me, and didn't make the effort to incorporate that training. Now that I'm ready to transition to the job market, things have changed and I am essentially looking for anything that will pay me to use my brain in some scientific capacity - academic, industry, govt, whatever. But I missed an opportunity to make myself more competitive for a big component of the market. I'm not saying it is impossible to go to industry at this point, several of my colleagues have gone that direction with out defined industry experience, but it is very difficult. Industries are spoiled for choice at the PhD level. They can be as selective as they want, and frequently will post very specific jobs for which there may only be a handful of people in the world that are truly qualified for and they will find those people.

[batman1425]

To be able to think critically just means that one approaches a problem with the fundamental understanding that there may be numerous solutions to the problem, and all of them have potential drawbacks. More fundamentally (perhaps ironic in this usage), it's a way of thinking that leads away from dogma. I'd be the last person to bash the traditional liberal art fields of study, but you don't need to read the Iliad or understand the significant of the numerous renderings of la Pieta to be able to think critically. A chemist merely has to appreciate the fact that there are so many reagents that nominally accomplishes the same transformation to understand that each specific method of transformation has its own limitations and drawbacks.


Great point. From my perspective, today's pedagogies use "Liberal arts" to define a type of educational environment (the small college) rather than a topical or skills criteria. I did my BA at a liberal arts college - in Molecular biology. I had to take a bunch of liberal arts classes, which I greatly enjoyed, and I do think that some of the analysis and interpretation skills that I learned there were transitioned into my ability to reason and deduce in science applications. That said, one doesn't need "liberal arts" classes to learn those abilities. They are core tenants of the scientific method as much as they are components of dissection of classic literature, art, philosophy, etc.

[joosttx]

Great point. From my perspective, today's pedagogies use "Liberal arts" to define a type of educational environment (the small college) rather than a topical or skills criteria. I did my BA at a liberal arts college - in Molecular biology. I had to take a bunch of liberal arts classes, which I greatly enjoyed, and I do think that some of the analysis and interpretation skills that I learned there were transitioned into my ability to reason and deduce in science applications. That said, one doesn't need "liberal arts" classes to learn those abilities. They are core tenants of the scientific method as much as they are components of dissection of classic literature, art, philosophy, etc.

The scientific method is one philosphy, one way of learning, widely used but not universal. That is what liberal arts should teach you. That there is many ways to skin a cat and the context of why these ways were developed.

Case in point: My wife was a history / theatre major at Washington University. Theatre taught her how to apply makeup quickly, history taught her how to think in law school. She is a bad ass junior Partner in the class action securities firm. She can spend years developing an arguement for lawsuits which reach in the billions. Her research and executions has nothing to do with the scientific method. I doubt she could recite it as I can barely explain tort law. My point is physics, chemistry, political science, anthropology, history, biology, philosophy take different (not all, ok) approaches to gain accurate knowledge and apply it.

[batman1425]

My point is physics, chemistry, political science, anthropology, history, biology, philosophy take different (not all, ok) approaches to gain accurate knowledge and apply it.

Agreed - my point is that the foundation of those different approaches is reason, deduction, interpretation, analysis, and reflection - among other things. Different fields have different ways of applying those core tenants but each is as much at home in science as it is in other fields. One can learn those core tenants with or with out a "liberal arts" focus. The field of study is a lens for application of a core skill set. However acquired, successful students of those skills in one area should, an in my experience working with students do, readily translate them across disciplines with remarkable ease.

[marciero]

..Liberal arts and critical thinking are not synonymous. To do well in the traditional liberal art fields of studies, one need to be good at critical thinking; however, one can be a good scientist or engineer without being the least bit interested in the traditional liberal arts fields of language, arts, philosophy, and history.
To be able to think critically just means that one approaches a problem with the fundamental understanding that there may be numerous solutions to the problem, and all of them have potential drawbacks. More fundamentally (perhaps ironic in this usage), it's a way of thinking that leads away from dogma. I'd be the last person to bash the traditional liberal art fields of study, but you don't need to read the Iliad or understand the significant of the numerous renderings of la Pieta to be able to think critically. A chemist merely has to appreciate the fact that there are so many reagents that nominally accomplishes the same transformation to understand that each specific method of transformation has its own limitations and drawbacks.

I think you are also underestimating the difficulty in learning computer languages. Though approaches to a solution may differ, the actual implementation is highly rigorous and methodical, and it does not lend to hand waving the way one may BS through an English or history class.
...

Liberal arts and critical thinking definitely not synonymous, hence quotes on the latter, also due the term's ubiquity/overuse and rather nebulous definition. Your definition of critical thinking is fine, but I note it includes precisely the types of things that one develops through study of the liberal arts-humanities as well as math (one of the first of the liberal arts) and sciences.

Not to downplay the difficulty of learning a computer language, but I was assuming that job candidates were proficient at programming in some language or languages. In our case they would have completed a four-year program with a computational/data-analytical focus. For most people it is much easier to learn a computer language if they are already proficient in some language. Employers I've spoken with say they are not as concerned with which specific languages they know, and that they are willing to train for entry-level positions. (Also, the "problem-solving" part of programming is more about algorithm design, which is for the most part language-agnostic.) These were not coding-type jobs that require a specific language. Sure, some specific technologies and languages get discussed, but employers keep stressing qualities that are associated with the liberal arts, even things like communication, written and oral. That one is huge, especially as new technologies of increasing complexity and sophistication infuse more and more fields. How do you explain to a supervisor, decision-maker, a client, etc. what you are doing? I've gotten the same type of feedback from some higher ed consultants who warn of the danger of sacrificing the liberal arts in an effort to focus on preparing workers for jobs.

[joosttx]

Agreed - my point is that the foundation of those different approaches is reason, deduction, interpretation, analysis, and reflection - among other things. Different fields have different ways of applying those core tenants but each is as much at home in science as it is in other fields. One can learn those core tenants with or with out a "liberal arts" focus. The field of study is a lens for application of a core skill set. However acquired, successful students of those skills in one area should, an in my experience working with students do, readily translate them across disciplines with remarkable ease.

Word!

[Kirk007]

Education : 4 years biology and social development University of Virginia, 2 years medical research and 2 years bartending and skiing learning about the working world and real life, 3 years of grinding through law school in Colorado and learning to drink excessively as a poor form of stress relief.

Work Experience after schooling: 16 years of private law practice in environmental law, which amounted to reallocating finances among polluters and being part of the sad evolution of law firms from counselors for others to self-centered profit centers. Now in my 17th year of non-profit management of conservation science law and policy organizations doing what I can to save this planet as it rapidly goes down the rapacious gullet of humanity.

Vicarious experience through children: witnessed and supported as best I could as my son struggled with traditional education system, dropping out at 16, eventually taking a job as a scuba instructor at 18 in Hawaii and growing up some, returning to the mainland and struggling but keeping at it with education and now on the downward slope of the hill towards certification as an FAA aviation mechanic. He'd rather be a woodworker.

Lessons learned: some people can grind out work as a career, sucking up that they hate it and accepting that as a trade off for income and lifestyle and be relatively happy. Some people can only be happy if they are engaged in something they love even at the cost of some measure of financial reward. Formal education may or may not be necessary for ones path, in my case it was. But from my seat no one can be happy if they lack the basic financial resources for food, shelter etc. There are many paths through life and rare is the person who finds the perfect path of fulfillment and financial security; but if you can get a balance of both you can be ok. Luck (or the lack thereof) plays a huge part in life. There's no guarantee that you will be here tomorrow - think about that as you pass the days doing something you dislike, but don't let it be an excuse for irresponsibility. Life is a journey, and a hard one that that; expect curves and be willing to take the less traveled road when it calls. I have been exceedingly lucky and I need to remind myself of that more often and be more grateful.

[ravdg316]

I graduated in 2011 with a B.A in Film Studies and Political Science from UCSB. Most of my education came from working at the school paper, so I second anybody on this forum who mentioned that learning takes different forms during the college years.

The economy was down at the time I graduated, especially for kids like me with no immediate direction. The key I think was and always will be hustle. The idea of 9 to 5 and security in a job are relatively new in the span of humanity and doesn't seem to be the way the world is going -- although right now, I work a 9 to 5! Back then, I was sportswriting for a local paper, tutoring and working an internship in film. Now I'm in education full time as a director at a tutoring company.

I'm still pretty young compared to a lot of guys on this forum, and fortunate to have no debt, no student loans and support from parents and family who encourage me to think big. This background has shaped the way I see my options now, which are thus: 1). Work for wages, go to school to develop skills to continue working for wages indefinitely. OR 2). Pay attention and listen to what the world needs, then create a service that fulfills that need, and take the time to develop systems where that service can run relatively autonomously once set up correctly.

Right now, I'm working for wages but I'm really working to learn about sales, management, and the demographic I plan to work with in the future. Thanks to biking and cooking and being in decent shape I'm confident I could live in a tent/RV/car, get a gym membership for $50 a month for showers and still live a pretty damn good life. Risk is minimal in starting a new venture at my age, but I have to remind myself that it takes patience and time to build something worth building. My millenial minds wants it all and WANTS IT NOW!

Overall point: I've learned much more in the years after I graduated, and the learning doesn't stop even though I don't have credentials to show for it. For those of you pondering going back to school, think about how your educational goals can help you serve others rather than how the credentials can serve you.

Serving others isn't about being selfless, though. If you provide something people want, then you will be compensated for it on your own terms.

[estilley]

BA in Econ from expensive/selective liberal arts school on the east coast 2014.

Worked in NYC in corporate retail for two years, couldn't stand it.

Moved back in with the folks in pdx and started selling/installing/repairing car racks. Learned way more during this time on a practical basis than during my college years - although I would still say they are important.

Currently enrolled in a mechanical engineering post-bac and still working mostly full time at the rack shop. This time around I'm much more into the classes and really enjoy everything I learn.

Takes time to figure out, but once you do it feels good.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[slidey]

Education is a process - not a product. The process of education is a life-long one - either you are already subscribed to the process, or can become so.

A degree is a generic product, say a bicycle. Every consumer of the product get the same damned thing (a frame with 2 triangles, handlebars, wheels, brakes, etc / a paper with an educational institutions + your name + a field's name on it) - what you make of it, totally depends on you.

Test: Some use it recreationally, some use it professionally, some love it, some hate it, and so on.

Am I describing a degree or a bicycle, above?

Just like products - you get what you pay for it. We can argue about pricing, but that is not in our control, so instead of getting riled up about what should be, let us focus on what is. Keeping it to production frame: you pay 3-4k for a Colnago, or you pay 1-2k for a Specialized (on average, admittedly made up numbers for illustrative purposes). There are differences in the products, but each has its place, and purpose. So choose where you decide to buy your degree from carefully - because you will go in debt to buy it. Once you buy it, you've "earned" nothing really. You have to commit to working your butt off - and, that is a mindset game.

This is where I start losing you, OP. I don't understand your mindset of jumping from Civil Engg to Psychology, but then again, I don't need to. You're the one who needs to ask yourself the tough Q's because as I said, anyone can buy a degree - you only need to be prepared to go into debt, not really a big requirement there. But, why did you choose to buy the product that you did? What is really your "need"? If these basic Q's are unanswered, or unsatisfactorily answered, I don't see the point of making a purchase.

Just for completion: I am a CS PhD dropout, have 2 MS degrees (MS+ECE), 0 debt (in fact came out with savings from the stipend, etc), been in Tech since, and like what I'm doing. What I do is not directly related to what I learnt, but is incresingly the way world goes around today - that is motivation for me enough to continue skilling-up in that direction. Evolve, or die, essentially.

Good luck!
[OP: The probing Q's herein are for you to ponder upon. I don't need to know the answer to any of them.]

[don'TreadOnMe]

There are many important things to do in school, but the single most important thing:

LEARN HOW TO LEARN.

Get that, and you're good to go. And not just book stuff.
People can learn new things every day, maybe technical, maybe physical, maybe emotional...you get the picture. Learn how to learn, and do it 'til you die.

That's the lesson.