bouncing a Serotta idea off the forum... [Archive]

Ti Designs

07-31-2006, 01:54 PM

I haven't made this request yet, in part because I want some feedback from forum members, in part 'cause this way they'll know it's comming.

I sold a number of bikes this year because the customer's old bike was damaged by a third party (airlines, UPS, Samsonite gorillas...). In most cases the replacement was their dream bike and one hell of an upgrade. So, I have customers who travel a lot, had one bike damaged, stepped up to the next level and then find themselves handing over the new ride to the airlines - that would scare me! Yeh, Serotta does have the Serotta Owner's Club which in addition to a smart looking jersey you get an insurance plan of sorts, but what about the time it takes to replace the frame? Seven weeks is the better part of the season. Most people who travel a lot bring up the idea of a second "travel bike". Well, if the first bike is a custom Serotta, who's gonna be happy riding on a bike that doesn't fit as well and doesn't ride even close to the same? I have a list of customers who can tell you that there ain't a rental bike in the world that's going to take the place of a custom Legend Ti.

So here's my idea - and this has to work for the shop, the customer and Serotta. If a customer purchases a custom bike (their "A bike") they are offered some discount on a base level (CDA in steel or La Corsa in Ti) frame of the same design and geometry. This should work for the customers, offering them a second bike that rides the same at a very fair price - who can't see the value in that? It should work for the shop because there's so little effort involved with the sale - the fitting concerns have all been taken care of. It can work for Serotta because the second/travel bike program would only be offered off-season, which keeps them busy building, and doesn't slow the delivery time in-season.

So, what do y'all think? I bring this up now because I have customers who it, but I want to see what kind of appeal the program would have. I also noticed in the fine print of the airline's oversized luggage agreement that they only insure for $2800, which falls short of replacing the bike.

catulle

07-31-2006, 02:09 PM

I think it is a great idea. However, how cheap is cheap? That is, what would be the discount on the second bike? Or what if I want two Legends, one for home and one for traveling? The discount on the second bike must be significant (50?) in order for the package to be attractive. I'd guess that the manufacturer could only cut the cost of the frame in an important way. Maybe the deal should be for only the second frame and not a complete second bike. You have to keep in mind that even if the deal is great, the total disbursement can't be but so much.

I like the idea a lot. It makes sense and it addresses a real and important issue. I wonder if the numbers could be accomodated to make it a plausible deal.

Onno

07-31-2006, 02:24 PM

The Unicasi appeals to me as a travel bike. It solves a number of problems, but it ain't cheap. I suppose Serotta might reasonably say that if you really want to travel with your bike, order this one. Do they throw in the case?

catulle

07-31-2006, 02:30 PM

Smiley

07-31-2006, 04:41 PM

Ti Man , how many of your clients own only one rideable bike and what off-season do U speak of, Global warming here has made cycling a year round sport.. ask Al Gore John Kerry's buddy :)

Jason E

07-31-2006, 05:02 PM

I like it.

Lifelover

07-31-2006, 05:03 PM

This only works if the folks at Serotta are sitting around desperately wishing they had more bikes to build.

If a small company is at or near capacity there is very little incentive to accept more work at discounted rates.

I don't see the price for the 2nd price being discounted enough to make it viable. Just my opinion. I also thought trying to sell bottle water was a joke about 10 years ago so I could very well be very wrong.

Frankwurst

07-31-2006, 05:12 PM

Ti Man , how many of your clients own only one rideable bike and what off-season do U speak of, Global warming here has made cycling a year round sport.. ask Al Gore John Kerry's buddy :)

Smiley somebody forgot to tell the weather Gods about this global warming thing in northern Wisconsin (with the exception of today) I'm not saying you couldn't ride year round here but you'd be one tough Hombre if you did. :beer:

Ti Designs

07-31-2006, 05:14 PM

Ti Man , how many of your clients own only one rideable bike?

The better question would be "how many of my customers whom I've a custom Serotta to would ride their other bike(s)?" And the answer is not many. Fit on a bike is a little understood topic. I see people riding around all the time with straight arms, half their body weight on their hands, necks screaming at them... My job is first to explain why faster is also more comfortable than what they thought cycling could ever be, then to sell them a bike that put them in a good cycling position. If that means going custom to put all the adjustments in the center of the range, that's what I'll sell (I've sold more than my share of Fierte frames to those who don't need custom). I hear the same line every time - "I'll keep the old bike for riding in the rain". Then, a month later when they've come to love the new bike I ask if they've been back on the old bike. They may still have it, but they're not riding 'em around any more. Thus the idea of a second custom, less expensive, covered by the airline's insurance for oversized luggage.

This season I had four customers lose their Serottas for various reasons. Two were crushed by the airlines, one damaged in shipping by UPS, one fell off a roof rack somewhere between Vermont and Canada. Two of those were replaced with more expensive Serotta frames, and both customers have expressed concern about traveling with the new bike. So, I guess the answer is more than you would think... The Serotta forum isn't a good representation of the real world when it comes to bikes owned, the thread about how many bikes is proof of that.

As for off season, I don't think there is one, but most people disagree. By Serotta definitions I would say off-season is when the turn-around time for an unpainted bike drops below 4 weeks.

Onno,

The unicasi is a S&S specific travel bike, and a nice one at that, but it's hardly what I'm talking about. My goal is to offer a second Serotta in custom geometry that fits and rides just like the "A" bike, but can be replaced with the amount of money the airlines insure an oversized piece of luggage. Adding $500 to the price of the bike for the couplings doens't seem like the way to do that.

As for 50 percent off or throwing in a fork, where do you shop???

swoop

07-31-2006, 05:25 PM

i just think it would be chill if they had a 800 buck custom aluminum race rig... something light and stiff and meant for a season's abuse. easton scandium would work 4 me.

Serotta PETE

07-31-2006, 05:26 PM

I have a legend ti everyday bike and a UNICASI> This works well for me. AS to insurance, while the airlines insures only 2800, your home owner policy (at least Statefarm)covers above 1K deductible. Most folks have 2 bikes anyway, if they do LOTS of travel or have been riding awhile.

As to a 50% discount,,,Serotta nor the dealer can afford this type of discount. Also most folks would want a duplicate bike with conponents and not a frame in the corner. (I could be wrong, but if you ride everyday, you need two bikes because of repair, parts breaks, etc,,,)

The owners club is great and gives you insurance and head of the Q for repair at a reasonable price. If I put my accounting hat on, a second bike even with consideration from SEROTTA and local dealer would cost 3K plus.

Another option is to get your measurements, find a used bike close to your measurements at about 1/2 price and keep as your backup bike.

Just my opinion.......

My full time job now is drinking wine and riding my bike, and the two bikes work well for me...It is an expensive investment, but so are many other things-AND most those do not give me the same pleasure, :D

Serpico

07-31-2006, 05:35 PM

.
not gonna happen

they sell a $7100 frame w/ basic paint and no fork--why would they be discounting frames in the off season?! (they're BMW, not Chevy)

you've got two groups of customers: those that are worried about price and those who aren't, the second group you can have buy a backup bike at full-price

have your shop rent out travel boxes or discount them

Archibald

07-31-2006, 05:45 PM

.
have your shop rent out travel boxes or discount them
Agreed. A person who travels often and owns a bike at the level of a Serotta can certainly afford a quality travel case. I routinely travel with my bike packed properly in a hard case and I have never suffered any damage I did not inflict on my own through such mistakes as insufficient or shifted padding.

Ti Designs

07-31-2006, 05:59 PM

they sell a $7100 frame w/ basic paint and no fork--why would they be discounting frames in the off season?! (they're BMW, not Chevy)

I can think of a number of reasons. Lower overhead - there's no fitting or drafting work involved, it's been done on the first bike. Brand loyalty - my other car is a Serotta, my other, other car is also a Serotta. Profit - Even Serotta has an off season, what I'm asking for isn't out of line with their pre-season pricing.

you've got two groups of customers: those that are worried about price and those who aren't, the second group you can have buy a backup bike at full-price

And the first group should ride crappy bikes??? Not a chance. I'm no stranger to spending more than I could afford on a good bike because I knew the difference (I spent most of my years in school eating mac & cheese to save money for my cycling habit).

have your shop rent out travel boxes or discount them

We do - what's your point?

Archibald

07-31-2006, 06:08 PM

We do - what's your point?
I think he was referring back to your statement that most of the damage suffered by your clients was due to a third-party during transport. Most, if not all, damage can be avoided through properly packing the bike in a quality hard case.

catulle

07-31-2006, 06:14 PM

As for 50 percent off or throwing in a fork, where do you shop???

That's me, right? I wrote 50% with the intent of representing "a significant discount". Moreover, I was just trying to improve what I thought was a good idea. Nevertheless, if I were buying a Legend, which with Record components would cost, how much? $8000, maybe? More? Well, if I'd have to buy the second bicycle for a 15% discount, to my checkbook that would be adding insult to injury. Especially when I already have a problem buying a custom Serotta because I've been fitted three times by three different authorized Serotta fitters, and I have three quite different set of numbers. Of course, I've paid a pretty penny for each fitting: From $125 to $250.

Regarding the fork, I wonder where do you shop, because other than Serotta and Dave Kirk all other brands include a fork with the price of the frame. Not that I mind for a second paying Dave for a fork for the frame he is building for me, but frames sold without a fork are the exception and not the rule.

Sorry, but you asked and I just tried to colaborate and give you an honest answer.

Ti Designs

07-31-2006, 06:53 PM

Nevertheless, if I were buying a Legend, which with Record components would cost, how much? $8000, maybe? More? Well, if I'd have to buy the second bicycle for a 15% discount, to my checkbook that would be adding insult to injury. Especially when I already have a problem buying a custom Serotta because I've been fitted three times by three different authorized Serotta fitters, and I have three quite different set of numbers. Of course, I've paid a pretty penny for each fitting: From $125 to $250.

Two issues here, both related to my second bike idea. First, my idea of a second bike or travel bike is one that fits under the airlines insurance limits. I'm not thinking Legend with Record, I'm saying base model custom - La Corsa in Ti or CDA in steel with a far more modest parts kit. The point is that it's custom and fits exactly like your good bike, at 1/4 to 1/3rd of the price. As for the fitting, there's a point to doing this program in the winter. Once you're happy with your good bike, it's easy to build a second bike in the exact same position. It sounds like you haven't gotten past that first step.

As to the issue of damaged bikes and hard cases, I came up with this idea because a number of my customers have had their bikes damaged or destroyed this season, and a few of them were well packed in hard cases. You can only use the line "I've always used a hard case and my bike has never been damaged..." until the airlines crushes your bike - then my idea sounds pretty damn good...

catulle,

PM me with some details on those fittings - I'd like to know what's going on. Every fitter has their opinions about position and they set people up based on those. For example, Paul Levine who was teaching the Serotta school when I went, feels that people should be within their range of motion in all three positions on the handlebars. I don't agree, I set up riders where the tops and hoods are within their range of motion, but in most cases I find the drops are just outside of it. I use the slow one leg pedal stroke to show that - at the very top of the pedal stroke the rider has to lift their hip slightly to get the pedal over the top. I feel it's a good trade off, the drops are for getting the center of gravity lower, and that doesn't happen with the bars 5cm higher. My point here isn't that one fitter is right and another is wrong, my point is that you need to understand the assumptions that the fitter makes going in to understand why you're fit where you are. It also helps as the rider to understand what changes will do. Fitting isn't black magic, there are reasons each fit came up with the numbers it did and there are differences between them. Knowing what the differences are and figuring out what you want out of the fit (given strengths of core and muscle groups and weaknesses or injuries) I'm sure you can narrow the fit range and find somewhere you're happy on the bike.

woolly

07-31-2006, 06:55 PM

Concept makes tremendous sense to me, but I took a slightly different path.

I love my Anvil Chisel, but considering the original wait time I was reluctant to take it on trips due to the risk of either theft or damage. So, I provided my build specs to Mark Hickey at Habanero and had them build a custom Ti copy of my steel Anvil. It was only $1000 for the frame then, but they've now gone up to $1200 for full-custom. The frame fits just like my Anvil, and I've been extremely happy with how it rides. The brushed Ti works great for the occasional abuse & neglect this bike gets too - just a little touch-up with a Scotchbrite pad from time to time & it's looking good as new. While I do still prefer the Anvil (partly due to the nicer components), I very much appreciate the piece of mind I get when taking the Hab.

Even without a discount, a CIII copy of one 's Ottrott or Meivici makes tremendous sense (to me, anyway). Now that Don Ferris has moved away from building frames, if my Anvil gets stolen or trashed a custom Serotta will probably replace it. But while that Serotta is being built, I'll still be enjoying the same great fit on my Hab.

davids

07-31-2006, 07:03 PM

It's an interesting idea, but when I think about my 'next bike' I don't think, "I want another Nove, only cheaper." I think, "What other interesting builders are out there, and how would they go about building a bike for me?"

I stil ride my Seven (it's the 'camp bike', summering up in Maine), and while the Nove does just about everything better than the Steel Axiom, I miss the springiness of steel when I'm on the Nove. And while I'll certainly consider a CDA when it comes time for the next road bike, I'm honestly more interested in sampling another builder's steel product - Pegoretti, IF, Kirk, Mooney, that Sachs guy perhaps...

And another point, from my economic point of view: As soon as I've got the scratch for a bike, I'm looking to buy one. I can't imagine having the discipline to save enough for two before I buy. I may be at the lower end of the Serotta demographic, but I don't think I'm that far off the mean.

Maybe because I've never shipped a bike, it's never been an issue for me. I'd be more likely to buy a robust case than a cheap(er) Serotta.

obtuse

07-31-2006, 10:25 PM

dirtdigger88

07-31-2006, 10:50 PM

Regarding the fork, I wonder where do you shop, because other than Serotta and Dave Kirk all other brands include a fork with the price of the frame. Not that I mind for a second paying Dave for a fork for the frame he is building for me, but frames sold without a fork are the exception and not the rule.

you may want to look at Dave's site again-

Jason

catulle

07-31-2006, 11:01 PM

you may want to look at Dave's site again-

Jason

Yes, I think I'm wrong. Because he has the price of a fork in his list, I have assumed that the fork is an additional cost. And like Clinton said: When you assume, you make an a$$ of u and me. I hadn't posted this correction (?) because I didn't want to make things even worse if I was wrong; that is, saying that the price of the fork is included in the price of the frame if it isn't.

Anyway, one way or another I value Dave's work too much to mind if the cost of the fork is additional to the cost of the frame or not. And I most certainly apologize for the mistake.

obtuse

07-31-2006, 11:08 PM

Yes, I think I'm wrong. Because he has the price of a fork in his list, I have assumed that the fork is an additional cost. And like Clinton said: When you assume, you make an a$$ of u and me. I hadn't posted this correction (?) because I didn't want to make things even worse if I was wrong; that is, saying that the price of the fork is included in the price of the frame if it isn't.

Anyway, one way or another I value Dave's work too much to mind if the cost of the fork is additional to the cost of the frame or not. And I most certainly apologize for the mistake.

if a frame maker offers fork options why does this make their product less of a value? if you're looking for value you wouldn't be buying racing bicycles anyway. a $2000 production bike wouldn't lose a pro any race and it makes a much better race bike than some of the over priced fiascos coming from some "custom" builders who haven't a clue about proper bike design.

a steel steerer tubed street fork is an option for a c50 and why shouldn't colnago and serotta offer fork options?

obtuse

saab2000

07-31-2006, 11:28 PM

jerk asks the right questions

Bruce K

08-01-2006, 04:59 AM

TiD;

Your idea is intriguing and seems like it should work for some folks. Those who have already "strecthed" to get their dream bike would probably not be able to take advantage of it, and not everyone travels with their bike. To me this means you are talking about a limited number of customers anyways.

Last year Serotta offered a discount to Owner's Club members who purchased a new frame during a certain, limited time period. I believe the discount was 20%.

That was incentive enough for me to get the Concours Cross frame I had been wanting. A deal like that doesn't happen very often.

I can't see Serotta or any other manufacturer doing much more than that to try and make your idea work.

BK

catulle

08-01-2006, 07:27 AM

if a frame maker offers fork options why does this make their product less of a value? if you're looking for value you wouldn't be buying racing bicycles anyway. a $2000 production bike wouldn't lose a pro any race and it makes a much better race bike than some of the over priced fiascos coming from some "custom" builders who haven't a clue about proper bike design.

a steel steerer tubed street fork is an option for a c50 and why shouldn't colnago and serotta offer fork options?

obtuse

Er, let's see. Why are you asking me that question when I haven't said or suggested that such is the case? The issue of the fork came up because when discussing the possible cost of a second bike (in the context of what T-Designs suggested), I mentioned that the cost of the second bicycle couldn't be too steep because if the first bike was a Legend or an Ottrott (or some other expensive bicycle) the price was steep enough (indeed, the cost of the fork is additional to the cost of the frame). I was stressing an issue of cost, in the context of an expensive deal.

Why shouldn't Colnago or Serotta offer fork options? Why not? If a frame maker offers fork options, is the frame less of a value? Of course not. However, if you are paying $8,000 for a frame, are you crazy for being surprised if the cost of the fork is not included in the $8,000? Of course not.

As a matter of fact, I thought that the price of Dave's frames didn't include the cost of the fork, and I was very cool with that. I had gladly accepted the idea that I had to pay additional for the fork. I just found out that the cost of the fork is included in the price of the frame and, of course, that's good news.

I think the next time I'm Boston we'll have to sit and drink the price of a fork in beer. :beer:

davids

08-01-2006, 09:48 AM

david-

your next bike needs to have knobbys.

obtuse
Yeah, I meant next road bike. The Adept is getting a bit long in the tooth.

Or are you suggesting a 'cross bike, or something more dbrk-ish? There's this really fun stretch of packed-dirt road a few miles from the camp. The Seven's done well there (although I lost a Michelin to a largish rock), but if my wife turns this camp thing into a second career, I might need a slightly stouter bike for Downeast.

Serotta_Andrew

08-01-2006, 10:24 AM

I've been fitted three times by three different authorized Serotta fitters, and I have three quite different set of numbers. Of course, I've paid a pretty penny for each fitting: From $125 to $250.

Wish to clarify something. The Serotta dealer is fitting the person and Serotta (Kelly) is designing the frame. These numbers will not always be the same!! The fitter does not design frame geometry, Kelly designs the frames!!!

catulle

08-01-2006, 11:03 AM

Wish to clarify something. The Serotta dealer is fitting the person and Serotta (Kelly) is designing the frame. These numbers will not always be the same!! The fitter does not design frame geometry, Kelly designs the frames!!!

Oh, I'm ignorant and still don't understand. Sorry. But what are the numbers and the fitting for, then? I really don't understand; please explain.

On the other hand, being that as it may, then a Serotta fitting would only be good in case one is buying a Serotta custom bicycle? I mean, if I pay for a Serotta fitting the resulting numbers could not be used for selecting the size of a Trek, for instance?

Archibald

08-01-2006, 12:17 PM

Oh, I'm ignorant and still don't understand. Sorry. But what are the numbers and the fitting for, then? I really don't understand; please explain.

On the other hand, being that as it may, then a Serotta fitting would only be good in case one is buying a Serotta custom bicycle? I mean, if I pay for a Serotta fitting the resulting numbers could not be used for selecting the size of a Trek, for instance?
I think Andrew's statement was confusing. The numbers derived from the fitting are used to design the frame. The fitting and the design are performed by two different people, but the designer uses the numbers generated by the fitter to design the bike. You should be able to take the results from a Serotta fitting and apply it to any other bicycle.

aLexis

08-01-2006, 12:37 PM

The numbers that are generated during the fit are from the Serotta Size Cycle. These numbers give Kelly a horizontal and vertical target to reach while designing the frame.

deechee

08-01-2006, 01:39 PM

sounds lovely - but what about people like me for whom his Colorado III *IS* his dream bike. I second the I'll take a cheap alu frame from Serotta with not so spectacular welds as a rain/city/commuter/travel bike.

But in all honesty, unless the discount is significant, it won't make a difference to me. I'm not as familiar with building as the people here, but I think it might be more interesting if you made the 2nd bike more "sporty" or "touring". The few serious roadies I've met either
a)have one bike - the rest are for comfort/mtb
b)have multiple bikes, but are collected due to sponsorship or lust/cool factor.

Either way, my next bike will be a tri geometry bike (so, definitely not the same geometry as my Serotta road bike). but that won't be for a while since I made a deal with my gf last night... (and yet I still look at the classifieds as soon as I log onto this forum... tsk tsk)

Archibald

08-01-2006, 01:57 PM

The numbers that are generated during the fit are from the Serotta Size Cycle. These numbers give Kelly a horizontal and vertical target to reach while designing the frame.
I understand that, but with each of my Serotta fittings I received a print out that listed my complete fit criteria which could be applied to any frame. Perhaps not all dealers provide their customers this information? It strikes me odd that one would be fitted and the results of that fitting could only be applied to a Serotta.

92degrees

08-01-2006, 02:02 PM

I understand that, but with each of my Serotta fittings I received a print out that listed my complete fit criteria which could be applied to any frame. Perhaps not all dealers provide their customers this information? It strikes me odd that one would be fitted and the results of that fitting could only be applied to a Serotta.

My fitter did the same thing. He also set up my then-current ride to approximate the new fit as best as possible given the constraints of that frame.

Ti Designs

08-01-2006, 02:57 PM

Yeh, that's right. The size cycle is calibrated not in metric or SAE units, but in units known as Bens - the distance from the first knuckle to the tip of Ben's little finger on his left hand. This way only Kelly, using Serott's top secret software, can design a frame from Size Cycle fitting numbers. The crew at Serotta feel very secure in this scheme as they know that no bike fitter would ever carry a tape measure around with them...

Seriously, Kelly takes fitting numbers and designs the frame to hit the target points while keeping a keen eye on how the bike handles. The key point there is that Kelly builds to the fit numbers given to him, and he's damn accurate in that. The inconsistancy is in the fit numbers. I'll leave it at that, I don't need the flames...

Serotta PETE

08-01-2006, 02:59 PM

:banana: Yeah Mr. Kelly is the MAN!!!! :banana: :) :)

catulle

08-01-2006, 05:20 PM

Seriously, Kelly takes fitting numbers and designs the frame to hit the target points while keeping a keen eye on how the bike handles. The key point there is that Kelly builds to the fit numbers given to him, and he's damn accurate in that. The inconsistancy is in the fit numbers. I'll leave it at that, I don't need the flames...

Exactly. And that's the point I made.

obtuse

08-01-2006, 07:16 PM

Er, let's see. Why are you asking me that question when I haven't said or suggested that such is the case? The issue of the fork came up because when discussing the possible cost of a second bike (in the context of what T-Designs suggested), I mentioned that the cost of the second bicycle couldn't be too steep because if the first bike was a Legend or an Ottrott (or some other expensive bicycle) the price was steep enough (indeed, the cost of the fork is additional to the cost of the frame). I was stressing an issue of cost, in the context of an expensive deal.

Why shouldn't Colnago or Serotta offer fork options? Why not? If a frame maker offers fork options, is the frame less of a value? Of course not. However, if you are paying $8,000 for a frame, are you crazy for being surprised if the cost of the fork is not included in the $8,000? Of course not.

As a matter of fact, I thought that the price of Dave's frames didn't include the cost of the fork, and I was very cool with that. I had gladly accepted the idea that I had to pay additional for the fork. I just found out that the cost of the fork is included in the price of the frame and, of course, that's good news.

I think the next time I'm Boston we'll have to sit and drink the price of a fork in beer. :beer:

painted f3: $710

dollar drafts: $1

i'm game if you are. :beer: :beer:

obtuse