Thoughts on electronics

[Elefantino]

Was out this morning on an XL Ridley Orion with Ultegra Di2 that I built for a customer. (Had to take it out on a COMPLETE test ride, if you know what I mean. ;D)

I have ridden enough old and new Di2 to know that while the autotrim is wonderful, and the shifting precise, I prefer the tactile sensation of mechanical. I ask customers about this all the time and there's about a 50-50 split among riders who have used both.

I have used EPS exactly once and had the same feeling, although the ergonomics were, I thought, much better than Di2. I have not used eTap but take Steve's word for it that is is a game changer.

Curious to hear your thoughts from those who have tried electronic.

I know there are older threads on this topic but I wanted to run a non-scientific poll.

[Llewellyn]

Still on 9 speed Ultegra and will be for a long, long time. It just does exactly what I need every time.

[simonov]

You're missing the option for "I like and use both electronic and mechanical." I have eTap and would buy again for a bike I was splurging on. But I still love mechanical and will buy it again for a bike I'm not splurging on.

[EmoryDPTT]

You're missing the option for "I like and use both electronic and mechanical." I have eTap and would buy again for a bike I was splurging on. But I still love mechanical and will buy it again for a bike I'm not splurging on.

Agreed with both electronic and mechanical.
Campy SR11 and EPS systems between by different bikes. Di2 on my cross bike.

[oldpotatoe]

Was out this morning on an XL Ridley Orion with Ultegra Di2 that I built for a customer. (Had to take it out on a COMPLETE test ride, if you know what I mean. ;D)

I have ridden enough old and new Di2 to know that while the autotrim is wonderful, and the shifting precise, I prefer the tactile sensation of mechanical. I ask customers about this all the time and there's about a 50-50 split among riders who have used both.

I have used EPS exactly once and had the same feeling, although the ergonomics were, I thought, much better than Di2. I have not used eTap but take Steve's word for it that is is a game changer.

Curious to hear your thoughts from those who have tried electronic.

I know there are older threads on this topic but I wanted to run a non-scientific poll.

Set and forget. No service, cable, housing ever. Very 'clicky', tactile feedback(EPS), very ERGOnomic levers(EPS). I'm a fan. Is it 'necessary' in any way? Nope, but it's keen.

[TimW]

For the type of riding I do, I can't justify the cost or complexity of them. I would also be concerned about the long term durability until they are in use a bit longer. Of the systems that are on the market, the wireless ETap is the most interesting to me.

[weisan]

Still on 9 speed Ultegra and will be for a long, long time. It just does exactly what I need every time.

Ditto.

[pinkshogun]

My next build will have Shimano 7 speed index/friction stem shifters

[Hilltopperny]

I prefer mechanical groups for the simplicity of it. After all we are riding bicycles and part of the beauty is its simplicity.

Sold my di2 bike a few months after picking it up. I am running 11spd mechanical campagnolo on 2 bikes, 11spd mechanical ultegra on my carbon bike and 10spd dura ace with a chorus carbon crank and sram red cassette on another. The 10spd shramagnolo is the smoothest drive train I've experienced despite it being somewhat of an eye sore.

[saab2000]

I have tried Di2 and wasn't impressed but that was admittedly the first generation. Total lack of tactile feedback left me cold.

I also did a quick parking lot check of a bike with Shimano 785 Di2 levers and disc brakes. That was a different story and left me intrigued but not buying.

I would like to try EPS. What I've seen in shops is nice looking and they appear to have more tactile feel to the clicks.

Both systems have seen some awful installations with wires dangling all over the place and/or taped to strange places and that ugly junction box is kind of a turnoff. Actually, kind of a turnoff is an understatement.

Both systems need to hide that stuff somewhere. I guess Shimano is trying to do that in the handlebar end.

I'm intrigued but so far not nearly enough to buy. Lets see what Shimano brings with their 91xx stuff and if Campagnolo evolves EPS.

Even though of late I've been on a Shimano binge, Campagnolo EPS intrigues me more than Di2, at least for rim brake groups.

PS - All the electronic groups leave me somewhat cold though in that they take away some of the purity of the ride. I like just riding and shifting and the mechanical aspect of that experience is part of why I do it.

[etu]

Tried Ultegra Di2. Initially really impressed, but after a while the novelity wore off and the 6800/9000 stuff is so nice. sold the bike with Di2. wouldn't be opposed to an electronic group if the next frame dictated it, but would prefer mechanical if i had the choice.

[livingminimal]

Set and forget. No service, cable, housing ever. Very 'clicky', tactile feedback(EPS), very ERGOnomic levers(EPS). I'm a fan. Is it 'necessary' in any way? Nope, but it's keen.

My sentiments exactly.

Also, I have both. When I ride my record peg Im amazed. When I ride my di2 Stinner or Moth Attack, I am amazed.

The choice of one or the other would never keep me from buying a bike I really wanted.

[Bob Ross]

Not sure any of the poll choices quite apply to me. While I've never owned it yet I'm 99.9% positive my next road bike will have electronic shifting...but I'm 100% positive I will never not own a road bike with mechanical shifting.

And I'm ~66.66% positive that one of my current mechanical bikes will get converted to electronic eventually.

[FlashUNC]

You're welcome to borrow the Lobster whenever you like for an extended EPS test.

As much as I love the feel of the latest gen Campy Rev+ 11 speed mechanical, their EPS groups are still head and shoulders above. Easier setup, way easier maintenance, and while the rear shifting is more or less the same, the ability to shift the front basically whenever you want is unreal.

Oh and autotrim is trick too.

[kgreene10]

Honestly disliked DA di2. I got constantly confuse by the buttons even when wearing short finger gloves, I disliked the random motor noises when not shifting (trim I guess) and I tended to over push without leverage causing some carpal tunnel-like symptoms. I was really surprised by this latter thing and haven't heard it from anyone else but it was genuinely a problem for me. Back on DA 9000 and happy except for those pesky cables every so many thousands of miles.

[shovelhd]

I have Di2 on both. Love the sprint shifters.

[OtayBW]

Tried Ultegra Di2 once and thought it pretty good. Still have mechanical SR, Record, Chorus, and Centaur on my bikes, and am extremely happy with them. I would like to try Record or SR EPS, and am particularly interested in if the tactile feel and efficiency when dumping 4+ gears is as good as with the mechanical.

[Kirk007]

For the EPS users: I've had two very, very respected framebuilders discourage choosing EPS - one in fact saying he wouldn't install it on any of his complete builds, as it was a total PITA to install and was not reliable. I noted a year or so back that Mike @ Maestro apparently won't sell EPS for the same reason. I'm a Campy guy and love the feel and design of Campy hoods in particular but is the comparison between electronic gruppos like comparing a Fiat to a Toyota?

[Willy]

Honestly disliked DA di2. I got constantly confuse by the buttons even when wearing short finger gloves.

I too had a few issues with the buttons but fixed that by reprogramming the functions so that the two upper buttons shifted the gears into higher gear and the lower buttons shifted into lower gears. This way my brain could just think that to make it easier, hit the buttons closer to me.

[FlashUNC]

For the EPS users: I've had two very, very respected framebuilders discourage choosing EPS - one in fact saying he wouldn't install it on any of his complete builds, as it was a total PITA to install and was not reliable. I noted a year or so back that Mike @ Maestro apparently won't sell EPS for the same reason. I'm a Campy guy and love the feel and design of Campy hoods in particular but is the comparison between electronic gruppos like comparing a Fiat to a Toyota?

I've had the same EPS group across two bikes now, going on three years. It's worked flawlessly without complaint.

[berserk87]

The big reason that I am not riding electronic stuff is cost. I can get DA 9000 about the same price as Ultegra Di2. I like Dura Ace a whole lot. It has been good to me over the years.

[JAllen]

Not that it's even on the horizon for me, but I don't really like the idea of it. I'd try it; don't get me wrong, but I just don't think it's for me.

I play bass guitar, and I'm the same way about active pickups. Not for me.

Give me an old Fender Jazz Bass and an old tube amp, and I'm ready to rock and roll.

[SoCalSteve]

I've said it before and I'll say it again...after using mechanical for many years, then DI2 for many more years and now eTap for going on close to a year..l wish the industry would have just bypassed wired electronic shifting and had gone straight to wireless.

Wireless electronics just make much more sense on so many levels over wired. If you are thinking about making the switch, I'd recommend wireless.

Enjoy!

[pinkshogun]

Will we ever see the day of voice actuated shifting....."Siri, move me from 3rd to 5th gear please"

[berserk87]

Will we ever see the day of voice actuated shifting....."Siri, move me from 3rd to 5th gear please"

The quantum leap will be shifting via electrodes jacked directly into your gray matter through your skull. Shifting will be by mere thought.

And then from there, wireless thought shifting...

[SoCalSteve]

Will we ever see the day of voice actuated shifting....."Siri, move me from 3rd to 5th gear please"

Awesome idea!

Will we ever see the day that we have access to the entire internet from a device that easily fits in our pocket?

Always confused by people who think that bike technology should never go beyond lugged steel bikes with friction shifting...:confused:

[weisan]

Always confused by people who think that bike technology should never go beyond lugged steel bikes with friction shifting...:confused:

Should

Never

Those are words of absolutes that I try to avoid using unless I really meant it.

To be fair, both camps have on occasions put words in each other's mouths.

Some say "they personally prefer the older technology..." and we quickly jumped to conclusion that they won't rest until they set us back 30 years like the Cultural Revolution.

And then there's the other side of the camp who prefer the new technology but simply cannot wrap their heads around why in the world would ANYONE EVER want to use 15-20 even 30-year-old mechanism or components.

Live and let live.

It's all a matter of personal preference.

There's no right or wrong answer here and what we personally prefer or like has no bearing whatsoever in the grand scheme of things when it comes curing cancer or solving world hunger....SO just relax and let others enjoy the sport.

[SoCalSteve]

Should

Never

Those are words of absolutes that I try to avoid using unless I really meant it.

To be fair, both camps have on occasions put words in each other's mouths.

Some say "they personally prefer the older technology..." and we quickly jumped to conclusion that they won't rest until they set us back 30 years like the Cultural Revolution.

And then there's the other side of the camp who prefer the new technology but simply cannot wrap their heads around why in the world would ANYONE EVER want to use 15-20 even 30-year-old mechanism or components.

Live and let live.

It's all a matter of personal preference.

There's no right or wrong answer here and what we personally prefer or like has no bearing whatsoever in the grand scheme of things when it comes curing cancer or solving world hunger....SO just relax and let others enjoy the sport.

I think you have me confused with the uptight person that has no perspective of what's really important in life.

You are 100% completely correct in everything you said. My only beef is when people don't keep an open mind.

But in the end, as long as people get out and ride, stay healthy and hopefully happy, then all is well. Can be on a $10k wiz bang bike or a Walmart special, makes no matter to me.

[Seramount]

just haven't given elec shifting any thought.

in tens of thousands of miles, there's been no circumstances where I come back from a ride feeling let down by the performance of the DA 7900 group on my bike.

if cost were no object, I might try it the next time there's a reason to replace the current setup. but, given the expense involved would probably just look to go with 9000 stuff.

losing the cables would be nice tho.

[AngryScientist]

electronic shifting is just not for me, and i hope that campy continues to produce a straight mechanical group with rim brakes for the foreseeable future.

that said, i can totally see the advantage in several situations.

i know several women who have smaller, weaker hands that have told me that electronic shifting is truthfully a game changer for them with the minimal effort required to shift frequently. that's outstanding.

racy TT/aero bikes with complicated cockpit geometries - between cable routing and aero properties - practically begging for wireless.

it's cool, and even though i'm not interested personally, it's good to see the big players continue to innovate and do new things. it's a great time to be a cyclist!

[Elefantino]

The quantum leap will be shifting via electrodes jacked directly into your gray matter through your skull. Shifting will be by mere thought.

And then from there, wireless thought shifting...
I believe you're talking about e-NygmaTap.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/4f/3b/fc/4f3bfcec1093000133ee19589548620e.jpg

[guido]

When eTap WiFli becomes available, I'll be tempted to try it. Without that combination I'm just not interested...

[SoCalSteve]

When eTap WiFli becomes available, I'll be tempted to try it. Without that combination I'm just not interested...

http://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/reviews/first-look-sram-red-etap-wifli-rear-derailleur

[livingminimal]

electronic shifting is just not for me, and i hope that campy continues to produce a straight mechanical group with rim brakes for the foreseeable future.

that said, i can totally see the advantage in several situations.

i know several women who have smaller, weaker hands that have told me that electronic shifting is truthfully a game changer for them with the minimal effort required to shift frequently. that's outstanding.



People with disabilities as well. Shimano has a full program they do every year with Wounded Warrior project and a lot of involves integrating di2 shifting into bikes that folks with significant injuries and trauma can utilize.

Or folks, like my father, who have had a onset of Parkinsons. My dad was just diagnosed a few months ago and he is doing pretty well at the moment (he's also very young, 61.) and is still able to do his crazy mountaineering that is really into these days, but the doctor advised him to get back on the bike, so we've already looked at di2 endurance/comfort options. (Im just glad it'll get him back on a bike, since he's the reason I ride)

[guido]

http://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/reviews/first-look-sram-red-etap-wifli-rear-derailleur

Thanks! I know it is on the way. Force level version would really help too...

[oldpotatoe]

For the EPS users: I've had two very, very respected framebuilders discourage choosing EPS - one in fact saying he wouldn't install it on any of his complete builds, as it was a total PITA to install and was not reliable. I noted a year or so back that Mike @ Maestro apparently won't sell EPS for the same reason. I'm a Campy guy and love the feel and design of Campy hoods in particular but is the comparison between electronic gruppos like comparing a Fiat to a Toyota?

No true at all..not for Di2 either. Not hard to install and very reliable. I'll bet he thinks tubulars are a mess too.

Mike won't sell EPS because he couldn't get it at his stoopid low prices so he said it was 'unreliable'..to a guy who bought his Colnago from him. First year, couldn't get it..during the Giro..said it was so unreliable that the teams at the Giro took it all off..until I showed him a pic of the riders at end of Giro..using SR EPS..

[Tickdoc]

Been on two rides with buddies where their electronics crapped out. One was di2, and he was stuck in middle gear default. Short flat ride, so no real problem. Turns out his battery was dead so no fault but his own.

Second was day before a big group ride, etap, and front derail. Would shift not. He was lucky to find a shop that had etap in stock, and they warranty swapped him a new front derailleur on the spot. Never heard what the issue was with that one.

I'm fine with my mechanicals and their mechanical faults. There are no worse than the faults of my own.

[bewheels]

These post always end up full of stories about how something failed which would leave the casual reader with the impression that the electronic system don't work, are buggy, complicated, etc, etc.

I believe any issues are the exception rather than the norm. I know many people that have 10s of thousands of trouble free miles. They just don't talk about it.

As for complexity...I can only speak for Di2...while it is different then mechanical, it is not anymore complex. You plug in a couple of wires. You might have to take 15 seconds adjusting the rear. Done.
If you were to take someone that knew nothing about bike mechanics and had to teach them installing a mechanical system and a Di2 system, I don't think there would be an predicable winner.

I own both. The only reason that I don't have Di2 on both bikes is because I was trying to keep the cost down on the bad weather bike. Which in a way is backwards because electronic on a bad weather bike is a great use case for the electronic system. ...and no, Di2 is not susceptible to wet conditions.

Speaking of cost - I am sure that Di2 on a MTB is awesome. But we used to think of RD as disposable components for real MTB racing/riding. I would not be very happy ripping a $300 RD off a bike thanks to a stick. But that same comment applies to modern mechanical RDs as well.

[makoti]

Mechanical & staying that way until Campy comes out with wireless. Then, I'll likely open the wallet for at least one (my travel) bike.

[54ny77]

I'm waiting for the all electronic drone bike that is synchronized to electro stim wires connected to my legs, that way I get most of the physiological benefits of riding but without leaving the barcalounger. Win-win.

[Gummee]

I've set up and tested more than a few bikes with Di2, but since I upgraded to 6800 and 9000 (and have a 9100 drivetrain that needs installing) on 6 of my road-based bikes in the last 24mos, I don't feel like dropping the coin to re-do all of them. Which is what I'd need to do so I have the same shifting on everything.

...and 3 are CX/Gravel bikes that i don't see the need to potentially ruin very expensive stuff wrecking in a CX race or riding it in the dirt.

Its nice. It shifts really well. ...but... Any yahoo with some cables can fix mechanical stuff. Not everyone has a laptop handy

M

[simonov]

I've set up and tested more than a few bikes with Di2, but since I upgraded to 6800 and 9000 (and have a 9100 drivetrain that needs installing) on 6 of my road-based bikes in the last 24mos, I don't feel like dropping the coin to re-do all of them. Which is what I'd need to do so I have the same shifting on everything.

...and 3 are CX/Gravel bikes that i don't see the need to potentially ruin very expensive stuff wrecking in a CX race or riding it in the dirt.

Its nice. It shifts really well. ...but... Any yahoo with some cables can fix mechanical stuff. Not everyone has a laptop handy

M

I used to think I needed the same shifting (SRAM mechanical) on every bike for it to feel natural. I finally broke down to try campy and had no problems switching. Then I added an Ultegra bike and still no issues jumping around. Then the eTap bike. I now bounce between 4 different shifting paradigms and never think about. Not saying your experience would be the same, but you may surprise yourself if you decided to try something different on one of the bikes.

[simonov]

These post always end up full of stories about how something failed which would leave the casual reader with the impression that the electronic system don't work, are buggy, complicated, etc, etc.

I believe any issues are the exception rather than the norm. I know many people that have 10s of thousands of trouble free miles. They just don't talk about it.
<snip>

I was on a long ride last week where we had a di2 battery fail, an Ultegra mechanical shifter eat a cable, and a campy FD cage break. The only bike that survived unscathed was my SRAM mechanical, which the internet tells me should have been the only one to fail. I guess you just can't trust the internet.

In all seriousness, I agree with this 100%. Most stuff works most of the time. That's about as good as you're going to get for any product, including cars, TVs, phones, computers, coffee makers, etc.

[Bob Ross]

Been on two rides with buddies where their electronics crapped out. One was di2, and he was stuck in middle gear default. Short flat ride, so no real problem. Turns out his battery was dead so no fault but his own.

I'm sure we all have -- or will soon -- similar stories. I too have been on two rides where someone's electronics died. Both were the result of dead batteries. Both dead batteries were the result of the user forgetting to charge the battery.

Based on my experience (getting caught mid-ride with an un-charged headlight battery in the middle of the night) I'll bet both users never make that mistake again!

[unterhausen]

I know a number of people that have snapped derailleur cables. That's a real pain unless it's all uphill to your car.

I have been impressed by both Di2 and EPS when I tried it in the stand. I would like to go electronic, but I'm far too cheap. I've been on some rides where I just got tired of shifting, I think electronic would be very helpful for that

[OtayBW]

I know a number of people that have snapped derailleur cables. That's a real pain unless it's all uphill to your car.
Sure, but you can always carry a spare or tie up the existing cable into an acceptable fixed gear.

[El Chaba]

I know a number of people that have snapped derailleur cables. That's a real pain unless it's all uphill to your car.



In over 300,000 miles of riding I have never snapped a derailleur cable. It may be premature, but I am prepared to declare cables reliable.....

[Mark McM]

Two comments:

First, my experiences:

I have tried Di2 a few times. I found the shifting to be relatively smooth and quiet. But compared to the mechanical shifting I was used to, the Di2 seemed to shift more slowly, and it's timing less predictable. In contrast, with my Campagnolo mechanical shifting the derailleurs move directly in unison with the levers, and over the years I have come to synchronize my pedal stroke with shifts, so my gear shifts are very fast and predictable. With Di2, the shifting occurred with some small time delay after the button push, and the derailleurs didn't appear to move as quickly. This was especially noticeable with multiple gear shifts, which the Campagnolo mechanical system performs nearly as fast as single shifts. Given the extra cost and slower response of Di2, I prefer the performance of mechanical systems, at least for the present iterations.

Now a philosophical comment:

Ever since the mating of internal combustion engines with wheeled vehicles, what separated bicycles from motorcycles was that bicycles are human powered. While one might argue that a bicycle is only directly propelled through the pedals, so electric shifting does not make a bike "motorized", but I call it a slippery slope. Surely, on a multi-geared bike, the shifting of gears is an intrinsic element in the operation of the bike, and therefore an electrically shifting bike is partially motorized. (I'm actually surprised that the UCI and USCF haven't had a challenge to their rules, which allow a bicycle to use no stored energy.)

Sure, there are other electric accessories often used on a bike, such as lights or cyclecomputers, but their functions are completely independent of the a bicycle's locomotion, and the bicycle works exactly the same without them. This is not the case with electric shifting - if the electric shifting system is inoperable, the function of the bicycle can be severely diminished.

[chiasticon]

I have a theory that the reason why we hear all these stories about dead batteries and such is that because people just set and forget, they never have to screw with their bike and just assume it'll always work. it's like how I once had a mechanic tell me that the most common car they see when people run out of gas is a Prius. people get such good gas mileage, they just forget that they need to occasionally fill the thing up.

[livingminimal]

I have a theory that the reason why we hear all these stories about dead batteries and such is that because people just set and forget, they never have to screw with their bike and just assume it'll always work. it's like how I once had a mechanic tell me that the most common car they see when people run out of gas is a Prius. people get such good gas mileage, they just forget that they need to occasionally fill the thing up.

Its the easiest thing in the world to set up a once-per-month reminder in your phone to check your di2 battery. like, beyond easy.

[adrien]

I've tried all three.

Di2 and EPS to me didn't look right. It makes a simple machine fussy to hang a bunch of stuff from it, though this got better with hiding batteries and cables. But a simple machine with cables, zip ties, junction boxes, batteries never really appealed to me. Shifting was great, though. Between the two I'd give EPS the nod, because Shimano's wee buttons feel awfully similar to each other to my fingers. To be fair, I have over time managed to slice off many of my fingertips, so nerve endings are in short supply.

Etap on the other hand: game changer. Simple, super clean, and very intuitive. Righty-tighty Lefty-loosy, both for a bigger jump. Been more reliable than mechanical so far, and less fiddly (nice to be able to adjust "non-barrel-adjusters" from the shifters). To me it's an absolute keeper, and goes very well on a certain kind of bike. I got the upgrade kit, which allowed me to go electronic on one bike and move the mechanical to another, making for 11-speed across the board. This in turn simplified wheels big time.

[Ti Designs]

A bicycle in my opinion should be a simple device. That said, we ask more of out bikes than any really simple device could do. An STI shifter is far from simple. It's all a trade off that takes us beyond the simplicity of a track bike...

What I like about a mechanical system is my ability to understand, service or fix any part of it. Electronics and software control open the door to layers of complexity that I really don't want on my bike...

The issue I have with software/firmware is the need for our society to always have the latest and greatest, or at least to think that's the case. I have resisted the trend of having a smart phone (I don't have a cell phone), but I did recently buy an ipad (for $260 you get a stand-alone ultra high res screen that connects to my camera(s) via bluetooth - using HDMI, it would cost me 10 times as much and have cables and batteries...) The thing with any too I use is that I don't want how it functions to chance. EVER!!! I've owned the thing for a month and a half, there are about two dozen updates that I'm ignoring. Apple doesn't even understand the concept of not changing things. Do you really think Shimano is any different???

[chiasticon]

Its the easiest thing in the world to set up a once-per-month reminder in your phone to check your di2 battery. like, beyond easy.well yeah, of course. it's also easy to remember to change your cables once a year. but people still don't, and they caught out with a broken shift cable.

we have tons of stuff in use with our bikes that need charging these days: computer, power meter, lights, heart rate monitor, cell phone, camera, etc. remembering to charge your groupset battery shouldn't be too difficult. the only bummer is that, unlike the others, your bike will be decently impaired if the battery dies while you're out on it. that is one of the things I like about the eTap setup: that you can choose how you want it to be impaired. this is all true if you break a cable too, though.

[Willy]

FWIW. I have a Garmin 1000 that has a setting to show the amount of charge on the Di2 battery so I know exactly the condition of the battery.

[bfd]

FWIW. I have a Garmin 1000 that has a setting to show the amount of charge on the Di2 battery so I know exactly the condition of the battery.

Haha, you have to spend an extra $500 to know the "exact" the condition of the battery?!

Doesn't di2, eps and etap all have some sort of indicator that shows battery life? If so, shouldn't that be sufficient to "tell" the battery condition without spending extra?

Good Luck! :beer::butt::crap:

[Bob Ross]

What I like about a mechanical system is my ability to understand, service or fix any part of it. Electronics and software control open the door to layers of complexity that I really don't want on my bike...

Well sure, but that's because you've been playing with bikes-as-mechanical-systems for ~40-something years. My 19-year-old nephew otoh could probably troubleshoot Di2 as easily if not moreso than he could a broken shifter cable. It's only a matter of time.


Haha, you have to spend an extra $500 to know the "exact" the condition of the battery?!
Doesn't di2, eps and etap all have some sort of indicator that shows battery life?

I believe they all have a status light that shows the relative condition, in fairly course terms, rather than the "exact" condition (although I have no idea how much more refined the Garmin status feedback is). Also that light is not easily visible while riding ...although at that point it's too late, right?
:::dancing banana:::

[SoCalSteve]

FWIW. I have a Garmin 1000 that has a setting to show the amount of charge on the Di2 battery so I know exactly the condition of the battery.

And with eTap, no need to add another sensor. Just does it " wirelessly ". Can read all 4 batteries and gives you a warning when a specific battery is getting low.

To the poster who said you have to spend another $500.00 to see the amount of battery charge, that is the very tip of the iceberg for what a Garmin 1000 can do as a cyclo computer, gps and a training tool.

[oldpotatoe]

Haha, you have to spend an extra $500 to know the "exact" the condition of the battery?!

Doesn't di2, eps and etap all have some sort of indicator that shows battery life? If so, shouldn't that be sufficient to "tell" the battery condition without spending extra?

Good Luck! :beer::butt::crap:

yes for di2 and EPS.. easy. After every ride I check my battery(EPS)..and have charged the one battery 4 times in 3 years.

Smart Phone? Campag iphone app to check battery. Plus all sorts of choices on shift protocol..even like etap..but, ya know.

[El Chaba]

Two comments:


Now a philosophical comment:

Ever since the mating of internal combustion engines with wheeled vehicles, what separated bicycles from motorcycles was that bicycles are human powered. While one might argue that a bicycle is only directly propelled through the pedals, so electric shifting does not make a bike "motorized", but I call it a slippery slope. Surely, on a multi-geared bike, the shifting of gears is an intrinsic element in the operation of the bike, and therefore an electrically shifting bike is partially motorized. (I'm actually surprised that the UCI and USCF haven't had a challenge to their rules, which allow a bicycle to use no stored energy.)

Sure, there are other electric accessories often used on a bike, such as lights or cyclecomputers, but their functions are completely independent of the a bicycle's locomotion, and the bicycle works exactly the same without them. This is not the case with electric shifting - if the electric shifting system is inoperable, the function of the bicycle can be severely diminished.

My feelings are similar. Something irritates me about the concept of batteries powering *ANYTHING* on my bike-a human powered vehicle. Of course, the "problem" that was "solved" with the new technology warrants no more than a yawn in its "solution". Unless you are such a process driven individual hell-bent on incorporating and implementing technology into your machine-largely for the sake of the technology itself...I just don't see the point....for me. I really don't worry about what others do.
Chacun a son gout.

[shovelhd]

I wonder how many people complaining about the unnecessary complexity of electronic shifting and the purity of the zen between man and mechanical machine have a power meter on their bike(s).

[oldpotatoe]

I wonder how many people complaining about the unnecessary complexity of electronic shifting and the purity of the zen between man and mechanical machine have a power meter on their bike(s).

And also insist it MUST BE wireless..:D

[simonov]

I wonder how many people complaining about the unnecessary complexity of electronic shifting and the purity of the zen between man and mechanical machine have a power meter on their bike(s).

Or use a cycling computer.

[Jeff N.]

I've tried EPS and it is as advertised. The thing is, for me, electronic shifting doesn't make any sense. It's simply not necessary. It's pointless. I remember last year when I was doing the Solvang Century. There was this one guy who had a dead battery on his Pinarello at about mile 75. He was done. DONE. Things like that come to mind whevever I think about electronic. Plus, the concept is still quite young and completely wireless versions of DA and EPS are surely on the horizon, making all wired groups instantly obsolete. Until such time that they discontinue mechanical, I'm staying with it. -Jeff N.

[chiasticon]

And also insist it MUST BE wireless..:Dyeah, good luck finding a wired power meter.

I've tried EPS and it is as advertised. The thing is, for me, electronic shifting doesn't make any sense. It's simply not necessary. It's pointless. I remember last year when I was doing the Solvang Century. There was this one guy who had a dead battery on his Pinarello at about mile 75. He was done. DONE. Things like that come to mind whevever I think about electronic. Plus, the concept is still quite young and completely wireless versions of DA and EPS are surely on the horizon, making all wired groups instantly obsolete. Until such time that they discontinue mechanical, I'm staying with it. -Jeff N.this is my thing. it's not necessary. only bought it when I bought a frame I liked that was only plumbed that way. I don't care about the rest of the zen of man and machine or dear god I have to remember to charge batteries (the horror!) crap. it works great and all, but so does mechanical.

[Mark McM]

I wonder how many people complaining about the unnecessary complexity of electronic shifting and the purity of the zen between man and mechanical machine have a power meter on their bike(s).

This is a false equivalence. Can anyone choose between a mechanical and electronic power meter? And does a bike become less rideable without a powermeter? No, in both cases.

Perhaps the approaches taken by other sports for electric appliances can be instructive. For example, how about America's Cup Yacht racing:

America's cup boats are highly engineered, containing millions of dollars of technology. These boats have a huge amount of electronic monitoring and telemetry, far more than any bicycle, and yet ... they use absolutely no stored power sources for any of the operation of the boats. In addition to only using wind for direct propulsion, all of the steering, winching, trimming, raising, lowering, etcetera is performed purely by the muscle power of the crew. If all electrical power was lost, these boats would still be just as operable and run just as fast. Loss of all electrical power on this high-tech boats would likely have less effect on their performance than a dead battery on an electronically shifted bicycle.

Cyclecomputers and power meters can store data and provide feedback to the rider, but they are not essential to the actual operation of the bike. Chris Froome spends a lot of time looking at his power meter, but if his power meter evaporated (with no replacement) in the middle of the Tour de France he would still win, whereas if his derailleurs evaporated (with no replacement) he would surely lose.

[Kirk007]

Something irritates me about the concept of batteries powering *ANYTHING* on my bike-a human powered vehicle.

I get this but my irritation with arthritis in my hands particularly in my thumbs irritates me more. etap hydro on my next bike.

[thunderworks]

I get this but my irritation with arthritis in my hands particularly in my thumbs irritates me more. etap hydro on my next bike.

I just installed Etap on a new Eriksen. I am not a powerful rider, but have ridden for 40 years, have great technique, and shift frequently to keep my cadence in the sweet spot . . . If you don't have power, you better have technique . . .

The Etap is great for me for two reasons:
1. Like Kirk007, I have arthritis in my hands and eTap with Blips makes shifting easier.

2. Because it's easier to shift, I can shift even more often than normal which helps my riding technique. Etap makes me a better rider.

YMMV

[simonov]

This is a false equivalence. Can anyone choose between a mechanical and electronic power meter? And does a bike become less rideable without a powermeter? No, in both cases.

Perhaps the approaches taken by other sports for electric appliances can be instructive. For example, how about America's Cup Yacht racing:

America's cup boats are highly engineered, containing millions of dollars of technology. These boats have a huge amount of electronic monitoring and telemetry, far more than any bicycle, and yet ... they use absolutely no stored power sources for any of the operation of the boats. In addition to only using wind for direct propulsion, all of the steering, winching, trimming, raising, lowering, etcetera is performed purely by the muscle power of the crew. If all electrical power was lost, these boats would still be just as operable and run just as fast. Loss of all electrical power on this high-tech boats would likely have less effect on their performance than a dead battery on an electronically shifted bicycle.

Cyclecomputers and power meters can store data and provide feedback to the rider, but they are not essential to the actual operation of the bike. Chris Froome spends a lot of time looking at his power meter, but if his power meter evaporated (with no replacement) in the middle of the Tour de France he would still win, whereas if his derailleurs evaporated (with no replacement) he would surely lose.

When a cable breaks, as Shimano has been prone to do in the last generation, the bike becomes equally less rideable as when a battery dies. eTap's use of two batteries actually solves the issue nicely as they're unlikely to run out of power at the same rate, so you can pull over, put the battery with juice on the derailleur that you want to shift and get it to a gear that is more useable. It's not like electronic groups fail in droves and mechanical setups are flawless forever. And we're not talking about pedal assist systems here. It's just different ways of actuating the change in gear selection. No zen is lost.

[Mark McM]

I get this but my irritation with arthritis in my hands particularly in my thumbs irritates me more. etap hydro on my next bike.

I also get this. We all can chose what vehicles we use, be they bicycles, e-bikes, motorcycles, or something that doesn't fit a distinct category. And we are all different, and have different wants needs, and can choose to make different accommodations for them. Some may even chose to use vehicles which complete escape standard categorization.

But I also feel that the ultimate definition of a "bicycle" has been, and should continue be, a strictly human powered vehicle. Once we start adding external power to the essential operation of the vehicle, it starts to become a hybrid of some type - a useful hybrid perhaps, but a hybrid just the same.

For purposes of recreation and transportation, there may be many varieties of hybrids to be selected and used, and I have no problem with that. However, in the realm of athletic competition, I feel that all external power should be excluded from human powered sport. There are plenty of examples of sports that have specifically chosen to do this (see the yacht racing example above). Electronic derailleurs in bike races starts us down a slippery slope.

[Bob Ross]

However, in the realm of athletic competition, I feel that all external power should be excluded from human powered sport.

I think this may be the first mention of "competition" in this thread.

[El Chaba]

I think it's noteworthy that the predictions made by the early adopters that this technology was "game changing" etc and that mechanical shifting would be relegated to the dustbin of history alongside the steam locomotive and kerosene lantern were a bit premature....

[Kirk007]

I also get this. We all can chose what vehicles we use, be they bicycles, e-bikes, motorcycles, or something that doesn't fit a distinct category. And we are all different, and have different wants needs, and can choose to make different accommodations for them. Some may even chose to use vehicles which complete escape standard categorization.

But I also feel that the ultimate definition of a "bicycle" has been, and should continue be, a strictly human powered vehicle. Once we start adding external power to the essential operation of the vehicle, it starts to become a hybrid of some type - a useful hybrid perhaps, but a hybrid just the same.

For purposes of recreation and transportation, there may be many varieties of hybrids to be selected and used, and I have no problem with that. However, in the realm of athletic competition, I feel that all external power should be excluded from human powered sport. There are plenty of examples of sports that have specifically chosen to do this (see the yacht racing example above). Electronic derailleurs in bike races starts us down a slippery slope.

I can see having a distinction perhaps for sports.

Definitions and classifications are interesting - are they all just "bikes" or are they mountain, hybrid, e-bikes etc? Splitters and lumpers - from taxonomy to recreation both views have their proponents. In my day job the big discussion know is what is human powered travel -- can bikes be used in wilderness areas (non-motorized ones of course). And if not then why are canoes or kayaks or horses allowed? And isn't this discriminatory against those with physical disabilities who might access wilderness if trails accommodated wheel chairs?

For me electronic shifting doesn't cross a line changing the fundamental experience. Whereas when someone in street clothes comes zipping by me on their e-bike as I'm commuting home on my "regular" bike a certain irritation and definite distinction registers. I guess we all have our lines that we hold.

[Louis]

Count me in with the Luddites on this one.

https://mazzmanali.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/jacksonludditesll.jpg

[simonov]

Shifting doesn't change the means of propulsion and, therefore, electronic shifting doesn't alter the nature of competition. The bike, as a vehicle, is still human powered.

[Mark McM]

Shifting doesn't change the means of propulsion and, therefore, electronic shifting doesn't alter the nature of competition. The bike, as a vehicle, is still human powered.

Shifting is still a physical action taken by the rider, which (at least for mechanical systems) requires the riders muscles and energy. Shifting effort may be small, but it can add up over the length of a competition. All other human powered competitive sports take the philosophy that all actions made by the participants during competition should be made under human power, whether for propulsion or not. Why is cycling different?

Name one other human powered sport that allows electric powered actuators to be used. Track and field or gymnastics? Nope. Speed skating, Nordic skiing or biathlon? Nope. Baseball, football, basketball, hockey or soccer? Nope. Bowling, darts or curling? Nope. Even golf requires that competitors must walk under their own (muscle) power between each hole - they can't ride in carts during the game. Even wind, wave and gravity powered sports largely disallow any other external power source during competition.

[stien]

Shifting is still a physical action taken by the rider, which (at least for mechanical systems) requires the riders muscles and energy. Shifting effort may be small, but it can add up over the length of a competition. All other human powered competitive sports take the philosophy that all actions made by the participants during competition should be made under human power, whether for propulsion or not. Why is cycling different?

Name one other human powered sport that allows electric powered actuators to be used. Track and field or gymnastics? Nope. Speed skating, Nordic skiing or biathlon? Nope. Baseball, football, basketball, hockey or soccer? Nope. Bowling, darts or curling? Nope. Even golf requires that competitors must walk under their own (muscle) power between each hole - they can't ride in carts during the game. Even wind, wave and gravity powered sports largely disallow any other external power source during competition.

Not sure who is arguing with you but I'll take a stab at it:

The difference in shifting effort is so minimal, it just doesn't matter. It won't make or break any race, ever. If anything, electrics can be seen as a liability. I bet some people will never consider it because of the potential failures.

And it allows component companies to sell a ton more volume.

[shovelhd]

Not sure who is arguing with you but I'll take a stab at it:

The difference in shifting effort is so minimal, it just doesn't matter. It won't make or break any race, ever. If anything, electrics can be seen as a liability. I bet some people will never consider it because of the potential failures.

And it allows component companies to sell a ton more volume.

I disagree. I've been over it before. Shifting in the drops in sprints is something I could not do with mechanical. Everyone is not the same.

[simonov]

Shifting is still a physical action taken by the rider, which (at least for mechanical systems) requires the riders muscles and energy. Shifting effort may be small, but it can add up over the length of a competition. All other human powered competitive sports take the philosophy that all actions made by the participants during competition should be made under human power, whether for propulsion or not. Why is cycling different?

Name one other human powered sport that allows electric powered actuators to be used. Track and field or gymnastics? Nope. Speed skating, Nordic skiing or biathlon? Nope. Baseball, football, basketball, hockey or soccer? Nope. Bowling, darts or curling? Nope. Even golf requires that competitors must walk under their own (muscle) power between each hole - they can't ride in carts during the game. Even wind, wave and gravity powered sports largely disallow any other external power source during competition.

It's apples to oranges. Of course the other sports you listed don't use electric actuators. Cycling is different because it's one of the only ones that requires a vehicle and the only human powered sport (to my knowledge) that has gear changes. If rowboats developed a gearing system to adjust speed, cadence, etc. they may very well use electronics to actuate those shifts. But to say the decreased effort to press an etap button vs. clicking a double tap shift paddle changes the nature of the competition in a meaningful way is a stretch. And to compare the use of that electronic actuator as being a deviation from the spirit of the game because basketball players don't use electronics to shoot balls or runners don't use electronics to run 100 meters is an even bigger stretch.

I really don't have a dog in this fight. I have both electronic and mechanical bikes. I like them both. I don't have a strong preference. I do believe the nature of the activity (including when I race) and the level of effort I exert during those activities is influenced by many, many things...but how I shift my gears is not one of them.

[simonov]

I disagree. I've been over it before. Shifting in the drops in sprints is something I could not do with mechanical. Everyone is not the same.

Everyone is definitely not the same. I think much of it is the balance of ergonomics and the specific group set in question. I can't shift Campy from the drops, mechanical or EPS. I can shift SRAM mechanical from the drops all day long. eTap as well, though not as easily. Di2 only with sprint buttons and mechanical Shimano only if I'm going to a bigger gear (a shift up the cassette in a sprint might result in a lot of accidental braking for me).

[chiasticon]

Name one other human powered sport that allows electric powered actuators to be used. Track and field or gymnastics? Nope. Speed skating, Nordic skiing or biathlon? Nope. Baseball, football, basketball, hockey or soccer? Nope. Bowling, darts or curling? Nope. Even golf requires that competitors must walk under their own (muscle) power between each hole - they can't ride in carts during the game. Even wind, wave and gravity powered sports largely disallow any other external power source during competition.so your argument is that it's passing into auto racing territory too much? fair enough, I guess. but it's basically been there for ages anyway.

personally I don't believe that the effort required to shift mechanical is so great that it could mean losing against a competitor who's using an electronic group. especially considering basically every pro team is on electronic groups these days. and I guess I don't view the shifting action itself as being a necessary portion of the "human powered" equation. I view the bike as being a machine which must be powered and driven by a human, however that machine allows that to happen doesn't really matter.

[bfd]

I disagree. I've been over it before. Shifting in the drops in sprints is something I could not do with mechanical. Everyone is not the same.

I agree in part. I use Campy ergo levers and the thumb buttons are usually too high to shift from the drops:

https://www.eurobikeparts.com/prodimages/Record10sErgo.JPG

However, the latest mechanical levers found in the 2017 potenza/athena/veloce mechanical groups mimicks the position on the EPS groups and now has the "dog-ear" buttons which appear to be much easier to reach from the drops:

https://www.universalcycles.com/images/products/medium/83919.jpg

So, I would say that if you have one of the newer 2017 potenza/athena/veloce mechanical levers, you should be able to downshift from the drops! Of course, YMMV!

PS - btw, I don't agree that shifting is going to make that much of a difference as it still the "engine" that powers the bike, i.e., you still have to pedal, even in a sprint. Good Luck!

[soulspinner]

Nibs won a GT with mechanical recently, dont think it takes enuf effort to make a difference. One could argue shift speed could matter but all shift so fast it seems irrelevant....

[Mark McM]

It's apples to oranges. Of course the other sports you listed don't use electric actuators. Cycling is different because it's one of the only ones that requires a vehicle and the only human powered sport (to my knowledge) that has gear changes. If rowboats developed a gearing system to adjust speed, cadence, etc. they may very well use electronics to actuate those shifts.

Actually, there are electronic steering systems available for rowing, which are perfectly fine for recreation & training, but are not allowed in competition.

Previously I gave the example of sailing, in which electric motors are not allowed for hoisting, trimming, winching, etc. Electric (or other powered) golf carts can not be used by golfers. Although not electric, semi-automatic rifles are not allowed for biathlon - for each shot, the competitor must hand-cock the rifle. I'm sure there are other examples where electronic sports aides exist, but can not be used in competition.

Even in powered sports, power assist aides are often not allowed. For example, Formula 1 auto racing did not allow power steering at all until recently, and still does not allow electric power steering. They still do not allow any type of power braking.

[simonov]

Actually, there are electronic steering systems available for rowing, which are perfectly fine for recreation & training, but are not allowed in competition.

Previously I gave the example of sailing, in which electric motors are not allowed for hoisting, trimming, winching, etc. Electric (or other powered) golf carts can not be used by golfers. Although not electric, semi-automatic rifles are not allowed for biathlon - for each shot, the competitor must hand-cock the rifle. I'm sure there are other examples where electronic sports aides exist, but can not be used in competition.

Even in powered sports, power assist aides are often not allowed. For example, Formula 1 auto racing did not allow power steering at all until recently, and still does not allow electric power steering. They still do not allow any type of power braking.

Ok, I concede. Shifting a rear derailleur is totally analogous to using a motor to hoist a sail or having to hand cock the rifle bolt...other than the part where they're totally different.

[gospastic]

If you wanted the playing field to be totally even, shouldn't all riders be using the same size cassette and chainrings?

[livingminimal]

This thread has jumped the shark.
Kill it with fire.
then post an eye roll emoji on it.

[simonov]

This thread has jumped the shark.
Kill it with fire.
then post an eye roll emoji on it.

Finally something I can agree with.

[Elefantino]

If you wanted the playing field to be totally even, shouldn't all riders be using the same size cassette and chainrings?

And shouldn't all riders be the same size?

[oldpotatoe]

I agree in part. I use Campy ergo levers and the thumb buttons are usually too high to shift from the drops:

https://www.eurobikeparts.com/prodimages/Record10sErgo.JPG

However, the latest mechanical levers found in the 2017 potenza/athena/veloce mechanical groups mimicks the position on the EPS groups and now has the "dog-ear" buttons which appear to be much easier to reach from the drops:

https://www.universalcycles.com/images/products/medium/83919.jpg

So, I would say that if you have one of the newer 2017 potenza/athena/veloce mechanical levers, you should be able to downshift from the drops! Of course, YMMV!

PS - btw, I don't agree that shifting is going to make that much of a difference as it still the "engine" that powers the bike, i.e., you still have to pedal, even in a sprint. Good Luck!

Actually started in 2015 with Athena and Veloce. Dog ear thumb button.

[AJosiahK]

I was never going to dip into Di2 when it first came out, I did think 2x mtb would be amazing once the tech caught up and it did finally. Still cant afford it ha!

When Sram had their hydro freeze recall issue, I was assembling a new custom bike. To this day I am glad that happened. Not for sram, but I much prefer the hydro brakes Shimano created, and currently have two sets of rs785 levers on a gravel bike and a drop bar mtb

eventually will have said group on the mtb

my shop has a etap bike and ive had the pleasure of riding it several times. Not as much of a fan of the shifting style, but it works well.

Never tried the campy stuff

[Pastashop]

What a strange gray area... human powered, but with the help of wheels, bearings, and gears that can be changed on the fly... We are all fundamentally looking for a "free lunch" when covering distance. :-)

[Mark McM]

What a strange gray area... human powered, but with the help of wheels, bearings, and gears that can be changed on the fly... We are all fundamentally looking for a "free lunch" when covering distance. :-)

The wheels, bearings, gears etc. don't add to the human power, they only make it more efficient; i.e. they don't provide any additional "free lunch", they simply stretch the lunch further.

An other simple example of this is the height jumping sports in track and field. An unaided high jumper can jump over bar 7 or 8 feet over the ground. By using a pole (i.e. the pole vault), they can jump over a bar 18 or 20 feet over the ground. Same (human) power, but different efficiencies in the use of that power.

[simonov]

But electronic shifting doesn't add to the human power. And even if there is any energy savings by using electronic, which I doubt but haven't scientifically tested, those savings would likely be negligible compared with aero wheels, skin suits, aero helmets, and other upgrades to a bike in the interest of saving watts.

[Mark McM]

But electronic shifting doesn't add to the human power. And even if there is any energy savings by using electronic, which I doubt but haven't scientifically tested, those savings would likely be negligible compared with aero wheels, skin suits, aero helmets, and other upgrades to a bike in the interest of saving watts.

The energy to move the derailleurs has to come from somewhere. In mechanical system it comes from the rider, and in an electronic shifting system it comes from a battery. All the other things you mention reduce the power lost, but none of them add power.

In the original electronic shifting systems (the Mavic Zapp and Mektronic systems), the force/energy that actually move the derailleurs came from a linkage attached to the derailleur pulleys. The only reason this was done was to meet UCI rules, which did not allow the bike to have use energy storage for operation. Apparently, this rule has be discarded due pressure from the equipment manufacturers.

There has yet to be named any other human powered sport that allows electric actuators. To be sure, there are plenty of sports that do use electric actuators - but these all fall under the classification of motorized sports.

[simonov]

The energy to move the derailleurs has to come from somewhere. In mechanical system it comes from the rider, and in an electronic shifting system it comes from a battery. All the other things you mention reduce the power lost, but none of them add power.

It sounds like you're arguing that electronic shifters add power to the rider whereas upgrades like aero wheels just reduce energy expenditure. So how does the electronic shifter add energy to the source of the propulsion, the rider? Perhaps the battery reduces the power expended vs. a mechanical shifter, though I still doubt it's significant since the buttons still need to be pressed, but that's equivalent to reducing the power through other means. I don't know if you've used an electronic system, but they don't actually increase the power output of the rider. They don't even replenish lost power like food. It's the difference between the effort to press a button connected to a wire vs. the effort to press a lever connected to a cable. And with eTap, my preferred system, you actually need to press two levers to actuate the front shift. Using both hands to press buttons must surely be equivalent to the effort to press a single lever in a mechanical system.

[Bob Ross]

I think I get what Mark McM is advocating: It's a plea for purity. And I can definitely see why that would be considered a Good Thing™

The problem is, the line between Pure and Unpure isn't fixed; it's not only a bit of a gray area, but it's also a moving variable depending on what disciplines guide your determination.

Mark has chosen to use the guidelines embraced by competitive sport to inform his determination of where that Pure/Impure transition is.

But a bicycle is used for so much more than just competitive sport.

Bicycles can be therapy tools, meditation tools, aesthetic objects of art/craft, purely functional tools for transportation, exercise machines, fun factories, fetish objects, etc.

Where do you draw the line between Pure and Impure if you only use a bicycle for fun? Why would you even draw the line between Pure and Impure if you only use a bicycle for fun?

Here's an example off the top of my head: If a bicycle to you is an expression of industrial design, one could easily make the argument that a BMC Impec is the "purest" expression of that intent, because it's completely untouched by human hands during the fabrication process.

All of which is to say: The appeal for Purity is an admirable quest; but assigning electronic shifting to some position on either side of some hypothetical or arbitrary Pure<-->Impure continuum only works for a very limited perception of what a bicycle is for.