Some of you "elite" racer jock types, seem a bit defensive ATMO

[Vanilla Gorilla]

It seems as though you guys feel as if you have either been under attack, or forced to remember things you would rather not. I don't think that anyone here (save wanker Frustration) is passing any sort of judgement your way when the dialogue turns to "DOPING". We are simply trying to understand the world of pro-cycling from either our computers, armchairs, Ottrotts, or recumbents.
I think all of us are fans of the Tour and pro racing. I believe that fans of pro baseball were just as curious to learn about the reasons for Pro Baseball's finest hitters turning to steroids, to pump up like Hans and Franz, so they could hammer balls out into orbit.
Most of the information coming from you has been "don't try to understand" and little else. If you can't articulate the reality of the situation then who can? Tyler and his dog? You guys say we don't want to know, and that we should not because it's none of our business, yet you complain about racing in Europe. Are you still afraid of the system? If the public (us) doesn't know the truth, how are things going to change for the better? Clearly the directors like Saiz and others are a problem, but it doesn't sound as though things are going to change, unless all the sponsors pull the plug, or the races stop. If you guys don't care then we wont either, but it seems like you guys do care and were hurt. Just telling us that "it's a racer thing you wouldn't understand" is only a continuation of the problem--not our problem, your problem. We don't have anything to "get over".

:banana:

[Serpico]

.
Do you know Spuds McDoogle?

[e-RICHIE]

It seems as though you guys feel as if you have either been under attack, or forced to remember things you would rather not. I don't think that anyone here (save wanker Frustration) is passing any sort of judgement your way when the dialogue turns to "DOPING". We are simply trying to understand the world of pro-cycling from either our computers, armchairs, Ottrotts, or recumbents.
I think all of us are fans of the Tour and pro racing. I believe that fans of pro baseball were just as curious to learn about the reasons for Pro Baseball's finest hitters turning to steroids, to pump up like Hans and Franz, so they could hammer balls out into orbit.
Most of the information coming from you has been "don't try to understand" and little else. If you can't articulate the reality of the situation then who can? Tyler and his dog? You guys say we don't want to know, and that we should not because it's none of our business, yet you complain about racing in Europe. Are you still afraid of the system? If the public (us) doesn't know the truth, how are things going to change for the better? Clearly the directors like Saiz and others are a problem, but it doesn't sound as though things are going to change, unless all the sponsors pull the plug, or the races stop. If you guys don't care then we wont either, but it seems like you guys do care and were hurt. Just telling us that "it's a racer thing you wouldn't understand" is only a continuation of the problem--not our problem, your problem. We don't have anything to "get over".

:banana:


sorry then.
let's try this route - cycling at that level, the way it's
set up schedule-wise, is not healthy or health-enhancing.
in order to survive the rigors of the profession, help is
needed. for a good long time - as in, before the press
and the public shined such a light on it - it was accepted
that these sporting heroes were the entertainment. now,
we want to know how it's done, like we want to know how
a magic trick is done, or how it works in the wwf. it works
because of drugs. we have been saying as much all along.
if we seem testy, it's because folks continue to ask the
question, yet the replies in the archives would yield the
same facts. sometimes the search feature is worth using.

[catulle]

Oddly enough, cyclists mostly dope in order to compensate for the damage done to the body by the competition itself. It isn't like baseball or football where athletes dope in order to grow bigger muscles that would allow them to bat longer or to tackle more heavily. In cycling, when you ride six hours at a heart rate of 180 the accumulation of toxins in the body is immense; thus the need to inject growth hormone to repair tissue or to dope the blood in order to remove lactic acid and other toxins from the muscles.

In other words, when the conditions of the competition are so grueling and your body is so torn, it is only natural that you will look for ways to recover as fast as you can to keep going. Comparing cycling to other sports or conditions, well, as all comparisons go it would be an imperfect excercise at best. It is tough not to be concerned about recovering fast in order to keep up with the rest, especially when you have the Ecclestones of the sport prodding you forward.

[fstrthnu]

It seems as though you guys feel as if you have either been under attack, or forced to remember things you would rather not. I don't think that anyone here (save wanker Frustration) is passing any sort of judgement your way when the dialogue turns to "DOPING". We are simply trying to understand the world of pro-cycling from either our computers, armchairs, Ottrotts, or recumbents.
I think all of us are fans of the Tour and pro racing. I believe that fans of pro baseball were just as curious to learn about the reasons for Pro Baseball's finest hitters turning to steroids, to pump up like Hans and Franz, so they could hammer balls out into orbit.
Most of the information coming from you has been "don't try to understand" and little else. If you can't articulate the reality of the situation then who can? Tyler and his dog? You guys say we don't want to know, and that we should not because it's none of our business, yet you complain about racing in Europe. Are you still afraid of the system? If the public (us) doesn't know the truth, how are things going to change for the better? Clearly the directors like Saiz and others are a problem, but it doesn't sound as though things are going to change, unless all the sponsors pull the plug, or the races stop. If you guys don't care then we wont either, but it seems like you guys do care and were hurt. Just telling us that "it's a racer thing you wouldn't understand" is only a continuation of the problem--not our problem, your problem. We don't have anything to "get over".

:banana:

Hey Mr. Passive Aggresive,

You haven't been reading my posts closely IMHO. I have dealt and am dealing with the problem DIRECTLY.

There is no need for hostility here. I think We all love Cycling and hate to see it hurt. It's like watching your dog get hit by a car.

Vai Piano,
Fstrthnu

[stevep]

Hey Mr. Passive Aggresive,

You haven't been reading my posts closely IMHO. I have dealt and am dealing with the problem DIRECTLY.

There is no need for hostility here. I think We all love Cycling and hate to see it hurt. It's like watching your dog get hit by a car.

Vai Piano,
Fstrthnu

fstrrunu,
get me something in the freakin crit today, will you?
bring something home for uncle steve.
good and hard, should suit you.
get vaillencourt or walsh and go up the road... make it stick.

[fstrthnu]

fstrrunu,
get me something in the freakin crit today, will you?
bring something home for uncle steve.
good and hard, should suit you.
get vaillencourt or walsh and go up the road... make it stick.

This is such a hard crit... I would be happy to FINISH.

Having said that I might as well attempt a do or die move!

DV is riding AWESOME. Hats off to him :)

Fstrthnu

[Grant McLean]

sorry then.
let's try this route - cycling at that level, the way it's
set up schedule-wise, is not healthy or health-enhancing.
in order to survive the rigors of the profession, help is
needed. for a good long time - as in, before the press
and the public shined such a light on it - it was accepted
that these sporting heroes were the entertainment. now,
we want to know how it's done, like we want to know how
a magic trick is done, or how it works in the wwf. it works
because of drugs. we have been saying as much all along.
if we seem testy, it's because folks continue to ask the
question, yet the replies in the archives would yield the
same facts. sometimes the search feature is worth using.

I just saw a tv show called ESPN "sports reporters" this morning,
The main topic, doping.

They were making all the same points as we have on this list
for the last week. The only guy of the 4 who made ANY sense,
was the one of them is an ex pro football player. His point:

It's entertainment. ALL sports is about money and the show.
He watches for "the show". He enjoys seeing a running back
break tackles, and doesn't think about, or care about, how he's
able to do it.

The other three reporters, (using baseball as their reference)
went NUTS. They went on about how you have to believe what
you're seeing is "real" in the moment. How you're basically
re-writing the rules of sports if it's only wrestling. They came
off as naive and foolish vs the ex player who was tellin' em like it is.
The ex-playa pointed out it's E-S-P-N.

It seems to me that this doping sitation has brought home to a lot
of fans for the first time that the reason why they watch sports is
much more about what they want to see, and not what's really going
on.

But the athletes have fed and encouraged this image, letting fans have their
fantasy, and now that the truth is beginning to shatter that image, both
sides are shocked and confused by how to deal with the results.

Athletes are villianized, and fans are angry.

g

[e-RICHIE]

I just saw a tv show called ESPN "sports reporters" this morning,
The main topic, doping.

They were making all the same points as we have on this list
for the last week. The only guy of the 4 who made ANY sense,
was the one of them is an ex pro football player. His point:

It's entertainment. ALL sports is about money and the show.
He watches for "the show". He enjoys seeing a running back
break tackles, and doesn't think about, or care about, how he's
able to do it.

The other three reporters, (using baseball as their reference)
went NUTS. They went on about how you have to believe what
you're seeing is "real" in the moment. How you're basically
re-writing the rules of sports if it's only wrestling. They came
off as naive and foolish vs the ex player who was tellin' em like it is.
The ex-playa pointed out it's E-S-P-N.

It seems to me that this doping sitation has brought home to a lot
of fans for the first time that the reason why they watch sports is
much more about what they want to see, and not what's really going
on.

But the athletes have fed and encouraged this image, letting fans have their
fantasy, and now that the truth is beginning to shatter that image, both
sides are shocked and confused by how to deal with the results.

Athletes are villianized, and fans are angry.

g

reporters often skew the facts too.
they each have their own agenda - a readership.
see the selena roberts BS piece in today's ny times.
reporting? pot>kettle>black atmo.

[catulle]

Athletes are villianized, and fans are angry.

g


Meanwhile, the Ecclestones and the media are racking in the dough.

[bironi]

reporters often skew the facts too.
they each have their own agenda - a readership.
see the selena roberts BS piece in today's ny times.
reporting? pot>kettle>black atmo.

Atmo,

Will you please detail your complaints about the Roberts piece. Just curious where you're coming from in the quote above.

Thanks,
Byron

[obtuse]

i'm not anti-doping. i'm anti-hypocrisy. i like the steps the french federation has taken to curb the most egregious offences and their development programs seem to be on the right path. it chased all the non-native talent away to spain but i digress; the french seem to be doing the right thing and the generation coming up has very different opinions on doping than the one that preceeded it. the united states should have an even easier time due to geographic isolation, differing demographics of both spectator and participant compared to europe and the like in emulating this. unfortunatly lance and his gang seem to have a stranglehold over everything and people with way too much money want to see "the next lance armstrong" rather than a viable american cycling program.

too bad.

obtuse

[Needs Help]

I don't think that anyone here is passing any sort of judgement your way when the dialogue turns to "DOPING".
Dopers are amoral, spineless, scumbags who will use any means to rationalize their cheating. Just because everyone's doing it doesn't make it right.

Is that clearer?

[Bradford]

Dopers are amoral, spineless, scumbags who will use any means to rationalize their cheating. Just because everyone's doing it doesn't make it right.

Is that clearer?

BRAVO!

I don't cheat at work, I don't cheat on my wife, I don't cheat in sports, and I don't cheat on my own morality. I don't cheat and I don't have any interest in supporting, watching, or encouraging cheating by other people. I would rather lose under my own merits than win by cheating.

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Hey Mr. Passive Aggresive,

You haven't been reading my posts closely IMHO. I have dealt and am dealing with the problem DIRECTLY.

There is no need for hostility here. I think We all love Cycling and hate to see it hurt. It's like watching your dog get hit by a car.

Vai Piano,
Fstrthnu

If you think I was being hostile then I am sorry. Don't get hit by a car.

[David Kirk]

I look at this a different way...........or at least I suspect that those in a position to benefit from doping might view it a different way. This is not to justify doper's actions or to excuse them but to maybe better understand the mindset behind doping and the decision to dope.

Let's look at auto racing as a comparison. In auto racing there are LOTS of rules to regulate how cars are built. It's accepted that one will push the limits of those rules and even cross them if they think it will result in a win. You done nothing "wrong" unless and until you are caught. If you are not pushing the limits of the rules you will not win. Folks get caught all the time with cars that are too light or cars that have too large a fuel tank. It's hardly considered cheating. It's more considered doing everything you can to win. Clever stretching of the rules is expected. It's all part of the deal.

So from a cycling standpoint riders will eat funny foods, sleep in tents that deprive them of life giving oxygen, and punish thier bodies in so many ways that it is no longer a healthy activity. One look at most Tour riders will tell you that they are certainly very fit but to say they are healthy would be a stretch. So........you've done all the legal stuff and maybe a bit of stuff that is on the edge and you still feel you need the edge. You've already done so much to develop yourself and made so many sacrifices that a little dope won't hurt unless you get caught. It's not a big step to "try it once" from there.......and just like so many things it's hard to stop once you've started. The sensation of crossing the line first is certainly addictive not to mention the money and fame involved.

How many of us tried recreational drugs at some point even though we knew that they were both bad for us and illegal? It is that different?

Just a thought.

Dave

[yeehawfactor]

reading this forum has certainly changed my views of doping. it helps to have a knowledgeable group that will explain things!

[Climb01742]

How many of us tried recreational drugs at some point even though we knew that they were both bad for us and illegal? It is that different?

dave, i think it's very different. yes, it was illegal but when i got high, i wasn't seeking a competitive advantage. there was no monetary gain; no prize or victory was won. the action didn't rob someone of something or impact anyone else. unless you count that time i puked all over someone. :rolleyes:

[Ray]

How many of us tried recreational drugs at some point even though we knew that they were both bad for us and illegal? It is that different?
What about if we knew they were illegal but DIDN'T believe they were bad for us? That was my position then and, while I don't mess around with the stuff anymore, I still don't believe the rec drugs I took in my youth were bad for me. Aside from the fact that taking rec drugs wasn't for competitive purposes (aside from the time a teammate and I tried to see how many cappuccinos we could drink :cool: ), I think that's a possibly important distinction. Taking a huge leap and imagining myself a competitive cyclist (the misspent youth of rec drugs must have just made that easier to do), I would have less problem with the 'illegal' part than the 'it could kill you' part. If I had faith in my doc, who told me he'd keep me healthy and if I saw most of my competitors doing the same thing, I don't think it would be too difficult to rationalize breaking a few rules in the name of levelling the playing field. Almost sounds noble, doesn't it?

-Ray

[J.Greene]

sorry then.
let's try this route - cycling at that level, the way it's
set up schedule-wise, is not healthy or health-enhancing.
in order to survive the rigors of the profession, help is
needed. for a good long time - as in, before the press
and the public shined such a light on it - it was accepted
that these sporting heroes were the entertainment. now,
we want to know how it's done, like we want to know how
a magic trick is done, or how it works in the wwf. it works
because of drugs. we have been saying as much all along.
if we seem testy, it's because folks continue to ask the
question, yet the replies in the archives would yield the
same facts. sometimes the search feature is worth using.

I think it's worth adding to the above pov that over 100 years ago the TDF was created for one purpose, to sell newspapers. It was never about sporting ideals or giving it the "old college try". The first years of the tour had much longer stages and were even more difficult than todays races. From the beggining it was about survival and putting on a show. I don't see things as that different now.

JG

[e-RICHIE]

Atmo,

Will you please detail your complaints about the Roberts piece. Just curious where you're coming from in the quote above.

Thanks,
Byron
you saw the piece?

[e-RICHIE]

i'm not anti-doping. i'm anti-hypocrisy. i like the steps the french federation has taken to curb the most egregious offences and their development programs seem to be on the right path. it chased all the non-native talent away to spain but i digress; the french seem to be doing the right thing and the generation coming up has very different opinions on doping than the one that preceeded it. the united states should have an even easier time due to geographic isolation, differing demographics of both spectator and participant compared to europe and the like in emulating this. unfortunatly lance and his gang seem to have a stranglehold over everything and people with way too much money want to see "the next lance armstrong" rather than a viable american cycling program.

too bad.

obtuse

agreed atmo. (http://outside.away.com/outside/features/200606/champions-club-1.html)

[Samster]

If you think I was being hostile then I am sorry. Don't get hit by a car.you seem to have enough spare time to read a book... try "The Crooked Path to Victory" by Les Woodland.

ISBN 1-892495-40-6. you can get it a Borders for $16.95.

and of course... don't get hit by a car.

[bironi]

Yes, I read the Roberts piece twice, but I may be a bit slower on the uptake.

Byron

[e-RICHIE]

Yes, I read the Roberts piece twice, but I may be a bit slower on the uptake.

Byron
i was put off by the placement (first page, above the fold, in paper
parlance) in light that it was a column, not a news story, and i thought
the working title was a conviction, and rather uncomplimentary. so i
read it this am with a chip on my shoulder. but in re-reading it tonite,
her condemnation of landis was not as strong as i thought it to be earlier.

it still does bother me that she would use that space to give all sorts
of reasons that he could/will be guilty, and offered none that speak
to the fact that it all might be a mistake. (well - she did offer one,
as in the title, the whiskey defense.

all in all, i thought the piece was well crafted, but a bit sensational.
her closing comments included -

if landis' whiskey defense fails,<snip>, the cyclist from the piety
and the purity of the mennonite country will be labeled a fraud.

that sounded (to me) like verbiage designed to win pulitzers.
but, yes - i realize it was op-ed and not a reporter piece.

[bostondrunk]

Dopers are amoral, spineless, scumbags who will use any means to rationalize their cheating. Just because everyone's doing it doesn't make it right.

Is that clearer?

lol, you haven't got a clue, idiot.

[Sean Soucheray]

I've participated in this kind of discussion in a few places, but what I haven't said earlier that I've meant too, is:

We the spectator, we the viewer; are we somehow responsible for what goes on as well??? I think so.

[Grant McLean]

I've participated in this kind of discussion in a few places, but what I haven't said earlier that I've meant too, is:

We the spectator, we the viewer; are we somehow responsible for what goes on as well??? I think so.

hey sean, welcome to the party.

I don't know how I feel about that.
I'm guilty becuse I watch and cheer?


g

[ergott]

...

[Grant McLean]

Who are the guilty ones?

The riders who dope?
The sponsors that look the other way?
The organizers who make racing harder every year?

This is bigger than just some riders pushing the boundries or training.

it was just supposed to be a joke, and i snipped it
just after posting, but you already quoted it.

yes,

g

[Fixed]

don't judge someone till you walked a mile in their shoes
cheers

[Grant McLean]

The organizers who make racing harder every year?


But this is a interesting statement.

Who makes the race harder??
the riders do. I could ride the tour no problem,
just give me enough time. The boys at the front
are the problem.

Why is Alpe d'huez a big deal? It's hard becuase
they choose to ride it so fast. It's not that hard
a climb. Why do they ride it so fast? Becuase
a few can, and everyone else suffers.

It's not the "tour de france" that's impossible,
it's the competition.


g

[ergott]

But this is a interesting statement.

Who makes the race harder??
the riders do. I could ride the tour no problem,
just give me enough time. The boys at the front
are the problem.

Why is Alpe d'huez a big deal? It's hard becuase
they choose to ride it so fast. It's not that hard
a climb. Why do they ride it so fast? Becuase
a few can, and everyone else suffers.

It's not the "tour de france" that's impossible,
it's the competition.


g


Yes, but the Pro Tour forces the team to race a very hard calendar all year. Classics, small stage races, grand tours...
To me there is just too much on the calendar. Time to make it more concise. One grand tour a year and have it rotate nations each year.

[Fixed]

the old tour was much harder and longer than the new tour but not as fast .
cheers

[Grant McLean]

Yes, but the Pro Tour forces the team to race a very hard calendar all year. Classics, small stage races, grand tours...
To me there is just too much on the calendar. Time to make it more concise. One grand tour a year and have it rotate nations each year.

Or just add more riders to the team.
The whole point of the pro tour was to create a system that
could support all the races. It's not like each rider needs to
ride every race. Think pitching rotation.

g

[Sean Soucheray]

hey sean, welcome to the party.

I don't know how I feel about that.
I'm guilty becuse I watch and cheer?


g

I pondered that, we who just watch it, at least this far away in the USA; but I pick up the cycling magazines and such; so I think we support it some and of course, one runs into those who travel there; of course, we always congradulate them; what an experience; but there are drawbacks too.

That's what I am debating because this time, a lot of people are really fed up.

[Big Dan]

We buy the bikes, we buy the shoes, we buy the jerseys and DVD's....

:beer:

[David Kirk]

Maybe thier carbon bikes are so fast they need the juice just to keep up.

Dave

[stevep]

We buy the bikes, we buy the shoes, we buy the jerseys and DVD's....

:beer:

we watch the baseball, the football, the track and field ( maybe )
the hockey, the basketball...
the spectacle is the same, the enhancement is the same...plus you can clap for a drunk who sings the blues.
no different.

[Sean Soucheray]

we watch the baseball, the football, the track and field ( maybe )
the hockey, the basketball...
the spectacle is the same, the enhancement is the same...plus you can clap for a drunk who sings the blues.
no different.

It's geared up scepticism I think, big time though, not just that, some of us watch the World Cup, and there you had a lot of antics, diving and acting aftern a supposed injury or what they call simulation; just today, this American Olympic Gold Medallist Justin Gatlin is facing a lifetime ban http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/athletics/5228060.stm on Testosterone of all things. You have people who question and I am unopinionated on it, didn't matter much to me, the last Superbowl; things are starting to add up it seems!

Once upon a time, heroes were like the fireman or something, course, every walk of life has it's vulnerabilities.

[Avispa]

But the politicians have fed and encouraged this image, letting voters have their fantasy, and now that the truth is beginning to shatter that image, both sides are shocked and confused by how to deal with the results. The Marines are villianized, and the tax payers are angry.

Damn G!

If you weren't talking about sports, I would almost think you were talking about the mess W has created here at home!!! :eek: :eek:

[Cary Ford]

Dopers are amoral, spineless, scumbags who will use any means to rationalize their cheating. Just because everyone's doing it doesn't make it right.

Is that clearer?

This is the funniest thing I've read in years...omg.

[zap]

the old tour was much harder and longer than the new tour but not as fast .
cheers

Bro, thank you.

Some dirt roads back then too.

The last 4,000+km TdF was back in '87. The last 5,000+km version was run in 1931.