Lacing.... Always 3x?

[Dead Man]

Hola

Bout to put together some 32/32h reflex CD/6890 winter training wheels. I've built a handful of wheelsets now, and have always done 3x all around, just cuz it's what I've done and know. But there are obviously other lacing options and lots of theories on when to use what..

So I guess my question is this: why not just always use 3x? When do I want to depart from that? Would there be any major disadvantage to just always building every 28 to 32 hole set 3x?

If it's relevant to the conversation, I'm fairly light and ride a good bit of rough road in the winter.

Also, anyone happen to know a good max kN for spoke tension with this rim?

Thanks,

-The B

[ceolwulf]

Not remotely an expert here, but - the fewer crossings, the greater the lateral stiffness. So I've tended to use radial lacing on the front wheels. That's for wheels with 20 or 24 spokes though and at 32 especially since you are on the lighter side I really doubt you'd notice. And of course it's harder on the hub flanges.

[bikinchris]

It doesn't matter how many cross you build a wheel, they will all have sufficient lateral stiffness (assuming they are correctly tensioned).
More crossings in wheel builds DOES make the wheel stronger and spreads the work load around a larger area of the rim. Therefore, it builds a more durable and longer lasting wheel. Radial spokes are mostly for looks. They aren't more aerodynamic, or lighter enough to matter. They are much harder on the hub flanges because it pulls on the least metal.

[Tony T]

Professional Guide to Wheel Building (Musson):

"Changing the cross pattern has no effect on performance, stiffness or strength. In a cross laced wheel the number of crosses to use is based on the number of spokes in the wheel, and if you are using a large diameter hub then that too has to be taken into consideration.
—-
You must select an appropriate number of crosses to avoid the following two conditions:
1. Overlapping spoke heads:
As the number of crosses increases, the spoke moves closer to the head of the adjacent spoke until it touches, then overlaps it which puts an unnecessary bend in the spoke close to the elbow and it also interferes when placing the spokes in the hub.
2. Adverse spoke entry angle:
As the number of crosses increases, the spoke entry angle at the rim will also increase and the nipple may not swivel enough to match the natural spoke line. Standard nipples can swivel about 6 0r 7 degrees, nipples with a spherical design such as the Polyax nipple from Sapim and ProHead nipple from DT can swivel more (9 degrees for the Polyax). For hubs with a flange diameter up to 60mm the spoke entry angle will not be an issue, but you need to be careful with larger diameter hubs, for example internal gear hubs or hubs for electric bikes, or using small diameter rims."

[dcgriz]

Tony T and the extract from Musson's book said it all. One thing I'd like to add is caution against 4x as in such pattern there is spoke overlap which may necessitate multiple spoke removal to facilitate the replacement of a broken spoke.

Another consideration between choosing 2x or 3x for 28h is how close is the calculated spoke length to +/-1mm from what is available, assuming you are not ordering custom cut spokes.

[oldpotatoe]

Hola

Bout to put together some 32/32h reflex CD/6890 winter training wheels. I've built a handful of wheelsets now, and have always done 3x all around, just cuz it's what I've done and know. But there are obviously other lacing options and lots of theories on when to use what..

So I guess my question is this: why not just always use 3x? When do I want to depart from that? Would there be any major disadvantage to just always building every 28 to 32 hole set 3x?

If it's relevant to the conversation, I'm fairly light and ride a good bit of rough road in the winter.

Also, anyone happen to know a good max kN for spoke tension with this rim?

Thanks,

-The B

I do 3 cross for 36 and 32, 4 cross for 40h.

28h, I do 3 cross rear with spokes orientated inside pulling(head out) to reduce the spoke flange angle as it goes over the flange for pulling spokes. I do 28 2 cross front.

Anything less than 28h..24, 20, I do 2 cross..radial generally for 18h(fronts).

If the flange is large and the spoke count is low, more crossings may have the spoke overlap adjacent spoke heads..

120 KGF MAXIMUM for those rims..front and drive side rear. 'CD' or hard anodized and eyelets can sometimes be an issue. Micro cracks on a relatively 'hard' rim, when they install the eyelets.

And for spoke length..I am a stickler for 'correct' spoke length as calculated on the 2 or 3 sites I use. I will not buy spokes from anybody who cannot provide spokes in 1mm increments. Wish I had a Morizumi..still looking. I was going to get the one at Wheels manufacturing but since they now make hubs, they decided to keep it..booo..

[marciero]

...
And for spoke length..I am a stickler for 'correct' spoke length as calculated on the 2 or 3 sites I use. I will not buy spokes from anybody who cannot provide spokes in 1mm increments...


Looking at the relative lengths of the spoke threads and a normal nipple, and also allowing for other minor variations, there really is not a lot of margin of error if you want to engage all the threads.

[oldpotatoe]

Looking at the relative lengths of the spoke threads and a normal nipple, and also allowing for other minor variations, there really is not a lot of margin of error if you want to engage all the threads.

Nope but some, who buy spokes in 2mm increments, will say 'close enough'.

Pet peeve of mine.

[dcgriz]

Nope but some, who buy spokes in 2mm increments, will say 'close enough'.

Pet peeve of mine.

Yes. A deviation of 2mm would make the spoke either too long or too short for the application. Spoke length selected should not be more than +/-1mm max variance from the calculated value (measuring the rim ERD and hub offsets as the spoke calculator dictates are very important to the quality of the spoke length calc).

[ColonelJLloyd]

Nope but some, who buy spokes in 2mm increments, will say 'close enough'.

Pet peeve of mine.

Agreed.

Been meaning to ask why you always use 14mm nipples even on rims where 12mm would provide plenty of nipple purchase. Just because it's simpler to stock one size?

[classtimesailer]

If your LBS has boxes of DT Comps in even sizes, you are never more than +/- 1mm. WRT 3X always? That's my way. But I did rebuild a set for my son that were 2X. They LOOK faster.

Yes. A deviation of 2mm would make the spoke either too long or too short for the application. Spoke length selected should not be more than +/-1mm max variance from the calculated value (measuring the rim ERD and hub offsets as the spoke calculator dictates are very important to the quality of the spoke length calc).

[bigbill]

My 32 spoke wheelsets are all 2X in the front, 3X in the rear. I never questioned the builder (RT). The wheelset on my crosshairs is 36H 4X with supercomps built by Joe Young eleven years ago. Two weeks ago I tightened a loose spoke just enough that it wouldn't wiggle and make noise. The wheel was still true. Those wheels are the definition of overbuilt.

[Tony T]

Two weeks ago I tightened a loose spoke just enough that it wouldn't wiggle and make noise.

Might want to tighten a bit more if you could w/o affecting true.

[oldpotatoe]

Agreed.

Been meaning to ask why you always use 14mm nipples even on rims where 12mm would provide plenty of nipple purchase. Just because it's simpler to stock one size?

Some 'delta', areo-y rims work better with 14mm cuz the nipple sticks through a little further, so I just use 14mm all the time(AND SecureLock all the rime, all wheels, also).