Doping in Pro Cycing.

[fstrthnu]

"If you don't like it; Leave."

This is what my Team Director on the US National Cycling Team said to us as we sat around chatting at the dinner table in Izegem, Belgium one night after eating some chewy stake and boiled potatoes.

No one ever muttered a word about doping from that point on.

Mind You this was NOT the Director telling us to take dope at THAT time as Amateur U-23's. He was simply saying that if and when You turn Pro in Europe... "If You don't like it; Leave."

You either dope or You don't. Get over it.

Fstrthnu

[e-RICHIE]

amen-issimo.

[swoop]

amen-issimo.

word to the mothership. did you get to shout at harm through the window of the car?

[Big Dan]

Yes, but people don't want to think about that.
Have you ever been to the kitchen of a chinese restaurant? You wouldn't eat yo.

Thanks for the knowledge... :D

[shinomaster]

Dude, my manager tells me that almost every day. I hate my job IMHO.

[catulle]

Who was asking for someone from the inside to come out and say it? I think that, er, Tom Cruise would say that the point has been made crystal clear. Nixon would have said that the point has been made perfectly clear. I think Mr. fstrthnm just said it, atmo.

[obtuse]

"If you don't like it; Leave."

This is what my Team Director on the US National Cycling Team said to us as we sat around chatting at the dinner table in Izegem, Belgium one night after eating some chewy stake and boiled potatoes.

No one ever muttered a word about doping from that point on.

Mind You this was NOT the Director telling us to take dope at THAT time as Amateur U-23's. He was simply saying that if and when You turn Pro in Europe... "If You don't like it; Leave."

You either dope or You don't. Get over it.

Fstrthnu


what if you do like it but you still can't hold the freaking wheel of some inbred named geert who can't even spell his own last name?

oh yeah, you get married settle down have a family help hymen roth make his partners money....never mind. i see the mirror bub.

obtuse

[Vanilla Gorilla]

what if you do like it but you still can't hold the freaking wheel of some inbred named geert who can't even spell his own last name?

oh yeah, you get married settle down have a family help hymen roth make his partners money....never mind. i see the mirror bub.

obtuse

Wow, Geert was old-school. You must be an old cat bro.

[obtuse]

Wow, Geert was old-school. You must be an old cat bro.

bucky,
geert is a rhetorical name. like bucky.

obtuse

[Grant McLean]

bucky,
geert is a rhetorical name. like bucky.

obtuse


not doper-boy Gert-Jan Theunisse?

g

[GoJavs]

Who was asking for someone from the inside to come out and say it? I think that, er, Tom Cruise would say that the point has been made crystal clear. Nixon would have said that the point has been made perfectly clear. I think Mr. fstrthnm just said it, atmo.

----

That would be Archibald, who's been mysteriously silent in the last day or two.

[Vanilla Gorilla]

bucky,
geert is a rhetorical name. like bucky.

obtuse

I thought that in Boston your rhetorical name was either "Fred" or "Buddy"? At least it is to the T drivers when you don't pay.

[Climb01742]

this could be a dumb question but... would it help if riders had a union like pro athlete do here?

putting aside the issue of "if" riders dope... do most riders "want" to? or would they rather race clean? if most riders would rather enhance their performance illegally, then a union wouldn't matter. but if the majority of riders were looking for a way to gain some leverage in the issue, would a union make any difference?

granted, players' unions vary here. the NHL union is a joke. the NBA union sure ain't no joke. the NFL and MLB are mixed, good and bad. i'm not saying a union is a panacea but might it be a step?

granted, also, that barry bonds still doped, so a union isn't even an anti-doping solution, ESPECIALLY in baseball but... my outsider's sense is that in pro sports in america, doping is a personal choice. from what you guys say, in the european cycling, the choice is like it or leave.

if the riders organized into a real union, could that maybe change? also, could they lobby to have the grand tours "humanize" their stages? right now, riders seem like the least powerful element in cycling. which is a bit odd, considering how powerful workers' unions are in europe, even more so in france.

just a question.

[e-RICHIE]

this could be a dumb question but... would it help if riders had a union like pro athlete do here?

putting aside the issue of "if" riders dope... do most riders "want" to? or would they rather race clean? if most riders would rather enhance their performance illegally, then a union wouldn't matter. but if the majority of riders were looking for a way to gain some leverage in the issue, would a union make any difference?

granted, players' unions vary here. the NHL union is a joke. the NBA union sure ain't no joke. the NFL and MLB are mixed, good and bad. i'm not saying a union is a panacea but might it be a step?

granted, also, that barry bonds still doped, so a union isn't even an anti-doping solution, ESPECIALLY in baseball but... my outsider's sense is that in pro sports in america, doping is a personal choice. from what you guys say, in the european cycling, the choice is like it or leave.

if the riders organized into a real union, could that maybe change? also, could they lobby to have the grand tours "humanize" their stages? right now, riders seem like the least powerful element in cycling. which is a bit odd, considering how powerful workers' unions are in europe, even more so in france.

just a question.


it's like anything else -
you want it to change? stop watching, or cease
supporting the sponsors that you think help
underwrite the problem. you're (we're) the audience.
enjoy the entertainment if you can.

[Climb01742]

it's like anything else -
you want it to change? stop watching, or cease
supporting the sponsors that you think help
underwrite the problem. you're (we're) the audience.
enjoy the entertainment if you can.

richie, this reply doesn't really address the point of my post. i'll concede that fans have some stake in change, but so do the riders. curt flood, yo.

[fstrthnu]

... still don't get it.

Out,
Fstrthnu

[Climb01742]

... still don't get it.

Out,
Fstrthnu

that's a BS answer. you don't think that the reserve clause in baseball was as ingrained in the fabric of the baseball once as the pressure to dope is in cycling now? where is cycling's curt flood? and any statement that somehow cycling is "special" and that we just don't get it is BS. that's giving cycling way too much credit. don't retreat into the "you don't get it" BS. if you can't argue the points, then just say so. don't make the failing ours.

help me understand why this isn't true:

cheating in sports is no different that cheating in business. in each case, the person is trying to do one or more of the following:

protect their liveihood.
enhance their pay.
gain a competitive advantage.
game the "system".
move up in the pecking order.
take an easier route.
ego gratification.

the stage on which the cheating occurs is different. but the stakes aren't. here's an example:

i onced worked for a creative director who, whenever he was stuck for an idea for an ad, would do this: in his office he always had a bunch of portfolios of creative people looking for a job. he would start opening portfolios and look for ideas he could steal. this "enhanced" his performance. this made a damn tough process easier. this protected his livihood. it got him raises and promotions.

it's true, i don't "understand" the daily details of the rigors of being a pro rider. but i do, vividly, understand the daily details of making a living. of moving up in a cut-throat, very competitive business, where every freaking day you better "perform". LOTS of people here face exactly the same thing every day. and there certainly is "pressure" in business to cut corners and "cheat".

it's fair to say that we don't understand the ins and outs of european bike racing. but it's not fair to say that we don't understand the pressures of trying to enhance your performance to protect your paycheck or to get a bigger one.

i'd bet money that every forum member at some point has had to face the choice of cheating or not cheating in their job. we understand that.

i'm NOT condemning riders. but i do reject the argument that we can't understand the underlying ethical choice. many of us face it often in our jobs. and yes our paychecks are on the line too.

[zank]

it's true, i don't "understand" the daily details of the rigors of being a pro rider. but i do, vividly, understand the daily details of making a living. of moving up in a cut-throat, very competitive business, where every freaking day you better "perform". LOTS of people here face exactly the same thing every day. and there certainly is "pressure" in business to cut corners and "cheat".

it's fair to say that we don't understand the ins and outs of european bike racing. but it's not fair to say that we don't understand the pressures of trying to enhance your performance to protect your paycheck or to get a bigger one.

i'd bet money that every forum member at some point has had to face the choice of cheating or not cheating in their job. we understand that.

i'm NOT condemning riders. but i do reject the argument that we can't understand the underlying ethical choice. many of us face it often in our jobs. and yes our paychecks are on the line too.

Amen, Climb!

[ericspin]

Climb -------- well effin said.

[JasonF]

There were two guys on my collegiate racing team who took steroids back in '88. If these guys felt compelled to dope at the "lowly" cat. II/III level, imagine what goes on when pressures of sponsorship come into the picture.

[stevep]

cycling is not a skill sport like baseball.
barry bonds was a good baseball player before he juiced. since he found the way his power has dramatically increased and his numbers have soared. if he was a cyclist he may never have even played when he was in his early unjuiced state.

a pro cyclist on a 26 man pro tour team is faced with a team manager who will select for every race the 9 guys who are going the best regardless of how they may achieve that position. thats his job. send the best team to the race, he does not want to know. he has a list of platitudes that he will recite when one of his guys is caught red handed.
once a rider begins to not make the race program he becomes doomed to 2nd rate status or 3rd rate races...ending any upside and dooming him to minimum wage until some fast young guy takes his job.
in cycling the enhancement really works and is very capable of making a chump a champion to some extent. the pressure is intense to participate...from the team, from the manager and from the other riders.
the sport is littered with guys who never quite made it or who could not perform when they did get to the top level...
i am not saying that every pro dopes. but there are many that do and feel that it is expected and required to succeed. ..and they are assured by the team doctors or unassociated doctors ( fuentes most recent ) that it is not harmful and they will be taken care of and that everyone does it.
its not a healthy sport at the high level, this is nothing like the 50 miles that we ride a few times a week...no remote resemblance.

[fstrthnu]

Hey look. Its just the way it is and it isn't going to change. No anti-doping website, no riders union, no stupid petition will change Pro Cycling EVER. Do You honestly think that a funtional rider's Union is even possible? You obviously have never been involved with the infrastructure in Pro Cycling.... Most of the riders are scared ****less and will get down on their knees for a Contract, do You really think more than 2% of the current Pro's have the balls to go against the system or even question the system. The answer in NO, They don't alright. So You can forget about a fcuking Union, You can forget about doping in Pro Cycling to end, You can forget about ever seeing a "clean" winner of the TDF. Just fcuking forget about it, because none of that fairy tail, heroic bull***** will ever happen.

And these are not the words of a beaten down Man. These are the words of someone who has/is involved for a long enough time at all levels who knows what the deal is. You don't see me questioning some Dentist about why my front two teeth blahblahblahblah. No, becuase I obviosly would be highly unqualified to question the view of trained, well educated Professional. I might however just take his word for it and let him get on with his Job.

Fstrthnu

[Fat Robert]

what the spinizzle said

btw

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?p=237497#post237497

[Climb01742]

Hey look. Its just the way it is and it isn't going to change. No anti-doping website, no riders union, no stupid petition will change Pro Cycling EVER. Do You honestly think that a funtional rider's Union is even possible? You obviously have never been involved with the infrastructure in Pro Cycling.... Most of the riders are scared ****less and will get down on their knees for a Contract, do You really think more than 2% of the current Pro's have the balls to go against the system or even question the system. The answer in NO, They don't alright. So You can forget about a fcuking Union, You can forget about doping in Pro Cycling to end, You can forget about ever seeing a "clean" winner of the TDF. Just fcuking forget about it, because none of that fairy tail, heroic bull***** will ever happen.

And these are not the words of a beaten down Man. These are the words of someone who has/is involved for a long enough time at all levels who knows what the deal is. You don't see me questioning some Dentist about why my front two teeth blahblahblahblah. No, becuase I obviosly would be highly unqualified to question the view of trained, well educated Professional. I might however just take his word for it and let him get on with his Job.

Fstrthnu

justin, i absolutely accept that you know the inside of european cycling a million times better than i do. and perhaps change isn't possible. you know better than i do. but jackie robinson and curt flood changed baseball. maybe there's hope for cycling. maybe not.

but i do think there is a big misconception among cycling insiders that we outsiders don't understand the ethical pressure to cheat. we do. and sadly justin, when you hang up your cleats and enter the corporate job market, you'll face those ethical pressures again. sad but true. i don't know racing, but dude, you don't know 9-to-5.

[Fat Robert]

jackie robinson and curt flood changed baseball. maybe there's hope for cycling. maybe not.
.

jackie didn't chage baseball. branch rickey signed him because it would make more money. integration was done for profit, nothing more, nothing less.

the reserve clause was a different matter -- but the motivation for players and agents was money. more of it.

unless something radically changes with the way money works in pro cycling, nothing is going to change anytime soon.




one ignorant jackasz's opinion, yo

[stevep]

alas.
real life clashes with mythology.
" start bailing mateys, the ship is taking on water..."

[fstrthnu]

justin, i absolutely accept that you know the inside of european cycling a million times better than i do. and perhaps change isn't possible. you know better than i do. but jackie robinson and curt flood changed baseball. maybe there's hope for cycling. maybe not.

but i do think there is a big misconception among cycling insiders that we outsiders don't understand the ethical pressure to cheat. we do. and sadly justin, when you hang up your cleats and enter the corporate job market, you'll face those ethical pressures again. sad but true.

Thank You for the knowledge, really.

What I am trying to say is that You are either that master of Your Own Ethics or You are a Sheep. It is a Choice. You can be Ethical if You want to be. At one time I chose the Sheep alternative in hopes for glory. Before the glory part I realized the Sheep option was for retards. I still do.

I think We are a lot alike in the fact that We are both not Sheep yet are surrounded by them, voluntarily. Maybe I am talking out of My *** here ... I don't know. Anyways...

I love the sport and I make it My own. I choose what it means to Me. I see Your frustration and in turn I feel for You.

Best,
Fstrthnu

[GoJavs]

...i don't know racing, but dude, you don't know 9-to-5...

Climb - you know, I've done the 9-to-5 for 18+ years and I understand what you're trying to convey. However, responses like yours are the reasons why pro's stay quiet IMHO.

IMHO, surviving in business is a lot easier than surviving in Pro European Cycling.

[Climb01742]

Thank You for the knowledge, really.

What I am trying to say is that You are either that master of Your Own Ethics or You are a Sheep. It is a Choice. You can be Ethical if You want to be. At one time I chose the Sheep alternative in hopes for glory. Before the glory part I realized the Sheep option was for retards. I still do.

I think We are a lot alike in the fact that We are both not Sheep yet are surrounded by them, voluntarily. Maybe I am talking out of My *** here ... I don't know. Anyways...

I love the sport and I make it My own. I choose what it means to Me. I see Your frustration and in turn I feel for You.

Best,
Fstrthnu

justin, i admire you. i admire that you had the guts to pull a howard beale and not take it anymore. moreover, the few times we've talked, you're a good guy. i have no fight with you. and i'm sure not meaning to sound condescending; if i did, i'm sorry. but i sense condescension in some replies about this subject. i just don't accept that we outsiders "don't get it". and please let me be 100% clear: i'm not condemning riders who face the pressures to dope in europe or even here in america (like the guys you're racing against on toona-ville.) but to say that we don't get the ethical situation you're in just isn't true or accurate, in my opinion.

[fstrthnu]

justin, i admire you. i admire that you had the guts to pull a howard beale and not take it anymore. moreover, the few times we've talked, you're a good guy. i have no fight with you. and i'm sure not meaning to sound condescending; if i did, i'm sorry. but i sense condescension in some replies about this subject. i just don't accept that we outsiders "don't get it". and please let me be 100% clear: i'm not condemning riders who face the pressures to dope in europe or even here in america (like the guys you're racing against on toona-ville.) but to say that we don't get the ethical situation you're in just isn't true or accurate, in my opinion.

Climb,

The last thing I want to do is come across as an arrogant, know it all 26 year old. PLEASE... I am all ears and I want to learn just as much as anyone else.

Most likely I still only know about 10% of what guys like You, ATMO, FATMO, SteveP, Obtuse, Swoop know... I look up to all of You as roll models.
I am just trying to give You the inside on the cards that were dealt to me at a young(er) and how I chose to play them. With all due respect.

Fstrthnu

[Climb01742]

Climb,

The last thing I want to do is come across as an arrogant, know it all 26 year old. PLEASE... I am all ears and I want to learn just as much as anyone else.

Most likely I still only know about 10% of what guys like You, ATMO, FATMO, SteveP, Obtuse, Swoop know... I look up to all of You as roll models.
I am just trying to give You the inside on the cards that were dealt to me at a young(er) and how I chose to play them. With all due respect.

Fstrthnu

dude, strike me from your list of folks you can learn anything from...except if it's how to have too little sense when it comes to riding. ;)

[GoJavs]

Dude - at U-23, my biggest concern was whether I was going to SUBWAY or Mickey D's for lunch. It ain't fair that you guys are forced to make decisions that might likely shorten your life at that age.

Heck - short of joining an infantry division (or choosing not to wear protection!), I can't think of anything else like it.

[Endless Goods]

From all this discussion. Nice to see this being discussed in a mature manner so us mortals can better understand what elite level racers have to go through to make it.

What really seems to ruffle my feathers about the stuff across the pond is when a case breaks and the "sound bites" come from other pro riders, such as Jens Voigt recently..."I have a family, blah, blah, blah."

Can we really believe he's a clean rider at that level? Seems like a lot of pot kettle black condemnation.

[bostondrunk]

I work the 9-5 thing. If someone told me my salary would go up to 500k+ if I took steroids, etc, I would!!!
imho bro cheers atmo

[e-RICHIE]

cycling is not a skill sport like baseball.
barry bonds was a good baseball player before he juiced. since he found the way his power has dramatically increased and his numbers have soared. if he was a cyclist he may never have even played when he was in his early unjuiced state.

a pro cyclist on a 26 man pro tour team is faced with a team manager who will select for every race the 9 guys who are going the best regardless of how they may achieve that position. thats his job. send the best team to the race, he does not want to know. he has a list of platitudes that he will recite when one of his guys is caught red handed.
once a rider begins to not make the race program he becomes doomed to 2nd rate status or 3rd rate races...ending any upside and dooming him to minimum wage until some fast young guy takes his job.
in cycling the enhancement really works and is very capable of making a chump a champion to some extent. the pressure is intense to participate...from the team, from the manager and from the other riders.
the sport is littered with guys who never quite made it or who could not perform when they did get to the top level...
i am not saying that every pro dopes. but there are many that do and feel that it is expected and required to succeed. ..and they are assured by the team doctors or unassociated doctors ( fuentes most recent ) that it is not harmful and they will be taken care of and that everyone does it.
its not a healthy sport at the high level, this is nothing like the 50 miles that we ride a few times a week...no remote resemblance.

again -
its not a healthy sport at the high level,
this is nothing like the 50 miles that we ride
a few times a week...

until you get this (above), this thread and subject
here will go in circles. in a way, we want our
heroes to (be able to) do things that we are unable
to, and we want to watch it from the comfort of
our barcalounger atmo.
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=237482&postcount=3

[1centaur]

As a neutral observer of the almost spat between climb and fastr, these thoughts:

climb is right that as an outsider he can still correctly point out that as a matter of human nature the question of cheat/don't cheat is simple, as opposed to the example of dentist skills.

where I think fastr was heading is that, unlike in business, the choice to cheat in pro cycling is not one you can make either way and have a fair chance of high level success. Thus, unless you have lived it, you are unqualified to realize that.

climb's point that a union could resist the system's pressure to cheat (demand shorter courses; expose management that encouraged doping) is probably whistling in the wind because dope testing is not good enough so voluntary dopers willing to be secretive will continue to have significant incentive to cheat since the vast majority of the pot (so to speak) goes to the few top winners in this sport. Even if 50% of the peloton had **** Pound's mentality and shared their knowledge of the techniques of doping and masking agents to the nth degree, there is no reason to believe they would be more successful than Pound to date.

Sponsor money is a more likely catalyst - no sponsor money for the team if anyone is caught; full time team testing beyond race controls; doping experts on staff for the sponsor; pressure from organized sponsors to make the racing less demanding; contractual liability for the DS if any rider is caught doping. Sure even all that could be beaten, but after a few years the culture would begin to change.

And BTW, really effective testing would help a lot, in conjunction with really good and swift due process. It's feeling like the first is improving but the second has a long way to go. That's a testament to the character of the blowhards who tend to rise in organizations like the UCI and WADA.

Time to ride.

[catulle]

again -
its not a healthy sport at the high level,
this is nothing like the 50 miles that we ride
a few times a week...

until you get this (above), this thread and subject
here will go in circles. in a way, we want our
heroes to (be able to) do things that we are unable
to, and we want to watch it from the comfort of
our barcalounger atmo.
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=237482&postcount=3

Well, I'm putting on my orange Dutch football national selection shirt and my Sidi to go around the block a few times, atmo. Average speed: 30 kph; heart rate 130bpm with 3ms intervals at 142bpm; and hurry back to finish De Beauvoir's The Prime of Life. If I need a boost, I'll look at pictures of Scarlett. I'm looking forward to buying a folding chair at Sports Authority to help me watch a cyclo-race or two this year.

Regarding doping, let me pontificate... Huh? Well, De Beauvoir says that Sartre had a mescalin shot from Dr. Lagache and he had a really bum trip. He would see things turning into monsters and for a few years thought that he had been permanently damaged. Good thing he never met Dr. Tim, atmo.

[Ginger]

jackie didn't chage baseball. branch rickey signed him because it would make more money. integration was done for profit, nothing more, nothing less.

the reserve clause was a different matter -- but the motivation for players and agents was money. more of it.

unless something radically changes with the way money works in pro cycling, nothing is going to change anytime soon.




one ignorant jackasz's opinion, yo

I agree. Until the teams and directors see some monetary value in running a clean race they will either assist, encourage, or turn a blind eye to performance enhancement.

Once it becomes a monetary issue for the team, or career issue for the director we will start to see change.

I still don't understand why if a pro rider is confirmed with a positive test he is suspended from the sport but his team director or manager isn't either put on suspension, removed from the sport, or fined a substantial amount for each rider suspended.

[Onno]

again -
its not a healthy sport at the high level,
this is nothing like the 50 miles that we ride
a few times a week...

until you get this (above), this thread and subject
here will go in circles. in a way, we want our
heroes to (be able to) do things that we are unable
to, and we want to watch it from the comfort of
our barcalounger atmo.


I think it's possible to "get" the idea that pro riding and pro riders are very far away from what we do and live, and still not give in to a kind of blank acceptance such mystification inspires. I agree with Climb that we are capable of learning and imagining what the deal is, certainly able to understand why doping is pervasive in this as in most pro sports, and STILL feel that something can and ought to change.

Certainly undoped heros will always be able to do things we can't do. Recently I've ridden with a 19 year-old kid, his first year on a road bike after several on mtb. On our rides he never drafts, and always effortlessly pulls away whenever he wants to from everyone else. He's not a hero yet, but he has a talent and discipline which amaze and impress. When I get cynical about the pros, I think of kids like this whom I've had the fortune to ride with.

[e-RICHIE]

Recently I've ridden with a 19 year-old kid, his first year on a road bike after several on mtb. On our rides he never drafts, and always effortlessly pulls away whenever he wants to from everyone else. He's not a hero yet, but he has a talent and discipline which amaze and impress. When I get cynical about the pros, I think of kids like this whom I've had the fortune to ride with.


great scott what a story.
there are 10,000 more like it, just
not likely to be found in pro cycling.

[stevep]

Certainly undoped heros will always be able to do things we can't do. Recently I've ridden with a 19 year-old kid, his first year on a road bike after several on mtb. On our rides he never drafts, and always effortlessly pulls away whenever he wants to from everyone else. .

raw aptitude. there is a lot of it.
pick any high school or college half miler , put him on a bike and he will kick your *** if he can figure out how to use the shifters. " what, the big one in the front you say?"
pick one from a top school or a larger program and he will be kicking cat 2s asses in 2 weeks.
imho

[swoop]

there is a great line from a rilke poem, " i want to be with those who know secret things, or else alone".

i can't think of many dudes in this world that i have more respect for than the dudes that know how jacked up a reality is.. and can enter it consciously, emotionally intact, with within their personal morals. clean bike racers rawk. 48th place in an nrc stage race is as good as first somethimes.
there are a lot of clean racers...

[ergott]

One of the problems is see from another thread is that even given the chance, those that are in it can't even envision the sport without it. You can't change a system if you can't even have a vision of what the end product will be. That is what I was getting at before. There have been pleas to support this cause or that, but if the people that would like change can't see the end product, I would be wasting my money. I have considered many times, how I can support what I love to see people do, but I don't know how without giving into the system as it is.

I know in my heart that almost every cyclist that goes pro goes through the "curtain" and sees what they are getting into only to have a little throw-up come up in their mouth. I'm sure that many of the riders don't artificially enhance their performance just for kicks. It's a life changing decision that they are forced into because they are in a system that is broken.

As mentioned earlier, Barry Bonds would be a great baseball player anyway. He has a skill where cycling is an effort.

My question is, for those that are in the trenches what would cycling look like without the unnatural processes? If the playing field was leveled, but on a different plateau would it be just as interesting? Look at the example of the hour record. They brought the effort back a few decades and took the technological advantages out. What would racing look like if they took the doctors out of the equation? I’m not asking how to achieve this (assuming it is impossible). I just simply ask what?

Dreamers can make change. That’s historically proven.

[quaintjh]

----

That would be Archibald, who's been mysteriously silent in the last day or two.
He hasn't been around since this atmo

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=236418&postcount=76

[swoop]

y'all are overthinking this. it's like trying to examine why and how someone picks their nose. you can take anything in life and break it down this much to look at it. it's all the same.
morality, context, measures of success, the morality of the moment, and choices.
it has nothing to do with cycling. look at the stuff that happens in a war zone. you take a normal dude, put him in iraq, have him encounter situations that don't make sense, under pay him, have a crisis of meaning, and watch him do bad things he would never think about doing in 'real' life that make total sense in the moment.

the mistake is to make this about cycling. it's everywhere. cycling is just a safe enough distance from your real life to get worked up about it.

[BdaGhisallo]

To my mind there is still a mindset that doesn't reconcile two competing ideals. One is for a sport of spectacular exploits and epic mountain stages in the grand tours and awesome battles in the cobbled classics. The other competing, and completely antithetical ideal, is for a sport free of any kind of doping and one where everyone competes honestly.

We have to choose one of the two if we want to move away from the present situation. If there was a way to eliminate doping, would fans be content with mountain stages of 70km with only one mountain in them? Would we mind if Paris-Roubaix was cut to 100km? How about if the grand tours were cut to ten days, and the average stage length down to 80km?

Would we still love it as much as we do? As has been described already, any world class endurance sport, and cycling especially due to the length and frequency of effort required, places exorbitant demands on the human physiology that border on the insane. This sport is not, in any way, healthy at its top levels. It is not your yuppie get fit activity. It is bad and beyond not healthy.

When I see pros rolling along at 55 or 60 kph on the flats I am amazed. I have to go down a good size hill to be able to get up to 55kph and maintain it for more than five seconds. When they climb the Galibier, at 40 km from base to peak, I am astounded. The half mile hills here in Bermuda kill me!

We have to stop being hypothetical and grow up. The sport is dirty - if by dirty you mean that competitors use every means at their disposal to advance themselves. Funnily enough, that is just like any other sport that I can think of.

I see that german tv is considering stopping its broadcasts of cycling because of the doping and cheating. I guess that means they will no longer show athletics or soccer or the olympics or even formula 1 with their god Michael Schumacher. That's the logical progression.

This is life. This is human nature. It ain't ever going to change. When we have eliminated the crimes of murder and rape we can turn to eliminating cheating in sports. Eliminating those crimes will shed some light on how difficult it will be to clean up sports.

[Grant McLean]

How many trillions of dollars go into feeding the fantasy that sport
is real? Every Nike ad, Olympic games, SuperBowl, running shoe, and
baseball hat reinforces this myth in our culture. Take that away?

g

[Needs Help]

its not a healthy sport at the high level

Why is pro cycling so much different than other pro sports, e.g. football, hockey, basketball, running?

I would bet that a pro cyclist who doesn't dope is healthier than 99% of the people on the planet. If you mean that all athletes get tendonitis and have back aches, and therefore cycling is unhealthy, then yes all sports are unhealthy--even at the amature level.

if the riders organized into a real union, could that maybe change?
Is there a model of a player's union somewhere that we can look to that has cleaned up doping in their sport? Or, do unions make it harder to clean up the sport? Player's unions protect the players, so if you have one more powerful voice at the negotiating table whose interests don't necessarily coincide with the owner's, does that make it easier or harder to impose a rule?

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Why is pro cycling so much different than other pro sports, e.g. football, hockey, basketball, running?

I would bet that a pro cyclist who doesn't dope is healthier than 99% of the people on the planet. If you mean that all athletes get tendonitis and have back aches, and therefore cycling is unhealthy, then yes all sports are unhealthy--even at the amature level.


Is there a model of a player's union somewhere that we can look to that has cleaned up doping in their sport? Or, do unions make it harder to clean up the sport? Player's unions protect the players, so if you have one more powerful voice at the negotiating table whose interests don't necessarily coincide with the owner's, does that make it easier or harder to impose a rule?


Marathon runnery are dirty. Track runners in the Olympics are dirty. Swimmers, football players etc. It is not just cycling.

[BdaGhisallo]

Pro cycling is not that healthy because of the sheer volume of work required of its athletes. Marathon runners run for 2.5 hours and then don't do another one for weeks or even months. Few sports demand that their athletes be out in the elements like cycling does, with driving wind and sleet not precipitating a race postponement in most cases.

In short I would say the the sheer volume of work coupled with the high levels of exertion demanded of a cyclist that makes it unhealthy at its highest level.

[Elefantino]

I want to know what Justin was doing posting at 8 a.m. when he should have been prepping for the final stage of 'Toona.

For the record, he's right, and so are the others. A great discussion.

It may come down to this: Either test everyone, all the time, or test no one.

If you test everyone, you don't have to submit all samples. Just take blood and make them pee after each stage.

I rode with a guy today who was in a coma for two months after being hit by a minivan. Broke three vertebrae and his femur. Former masters state champ. Still loves his riding, still can kick it up a notch. We rode 55, averaged 20, chatted most of the way.

For me, that's cycling.

[ada@prorider.or]

well justin has saw it had smell it
and knows it

and is as frustrating as me

[ada@prorider.or]

the cyclist make race hard not the race it selve

they use to do 400 km a day in the tour
nobody ask them to ride avg 45 km 3500 km
tha tis what the cyclist do them selve not the other way around!!

[Samster]

...and is as frustrating as me
now _that's_ worth quoting.

[swoop]

i did a 'pro 1-3' race today. i don't dope (too old for that stuff). i think it was a clean field. it would a been nice if more folks were there watching. hilton clarke won. i played elevator boy and moved my guys up over and over and closed a break.
my job was done with 5 to go. which is good because i was at my car changing with 8 to go!

i wish y'all would take this energy and put it into the sport. support the local businesses that support local racing at all levels. stay and watch all the categories. bring friends.. make friends. get messy into it. most of all.. take a one day license and do a race. have some fun. push your own boundries.

[Archibald]

He hasn't been around since this atmo

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=236418&postcount=76
Addressed and repeated here:
To the best of my knowledge I have never had any photograph I have ever taken used in any type of publication.

I work a four day week and my friend lives a metric century away. I rarely visit the internet when I can be riding. :)

[darylb]

but i do think there is a big misconception among cycling insiders that we outsiders don't understand the ethical pressure to cheat. we do. and sadly justin, when you hang up your cleats and enter the corporate job market, you'll face those ethical pressures again. sad but true. i don't know racing, but dude, you don't know 9-to-5.


Long time lurker, occasional poster.

I have read many of the "doping" posts and have watched those "in the know" so to speak offer incredible insight and wisdom and those of us way on the outside, like climb, offer a valuable fan's perspective.

Climb, you statements are completely logical but only partially accurate. You are in fact correct that a bike racer or other pro athlete does not know 9-5. What isnt accurate, or at least lacks full perspective is the idea that the 9-5er understands the ethical pressures to preserve the paycheck. There really is no way for you to understand that environment without being involved in it.

I say that because, no matter how many post we see from those who know the sport, it is impossible for you (us) to understand the reality. I played professional baseball and can tell you that there is a significant difference between the pro baseball and 9-5 and a significant difference between your perception of pro baseball and the reality of pro baseball. And I would presume that baseball is tame in comparison to super endurance sports such as cycling. I can also tell you that it was a difficult transition to integrate into the 9-5 world. I still dont like it because it feels like an unnatural world.

When he says you still dont get it, he is right. Neither do I. And unless you have been in the middle of it, i dont think it is possible for any of us to really get it. That said, you are right in that he doesnt get the 9-5 and will be faced with difficult situations if he ever enters it.

The problem with making it an ethical issue is that the argument will depend on who draws the line between ethical and not. I agree with you that that line should be clearly defined but I dont think it is.

Unfortunately, it may be true that it is impossible to get rid of "doping" in cycling or any sport. Maybe the best to hope for is a banned list that all parties agree with credible scientific justification and a no tolerance to going outside the rules. Probably not realistic huh? At the very least, an incredibly difficult task. I mean, how do you protect riders health without allowing some sort of artificial assistance?

Anyway, that's my take.

[Climb01742]

Anyway, that's my take.

and a very fair, articulate and borne of experience take it is. you are dead-on right, daryl, that i don't know the what it's like to be a pro athlete, and i agree there are surely major differences between being a pro athlete and a "pro" business person. maybe the most accurate thing i could say is: the situations are very different, the details are very different, but perhaps in some way, the fundamental ethical question is the same?

whenever one engages in a discussion, it's important to know what you don't know. i only know pro sports from the far outside. guys like you and justin know it from the inside.

thanks for your very good post.

[darylb]

but perhaps in some way, the fundamental ethical question is the same?

whenever one engages in a discussion, it's important to know what you don't know. i only know pro sports from the far outside. guys like you and justin know it from the inside.

thanks for your very good post.


I agree absolutely that the fundamental question is the same. I think what changes is the perception of where the ethical line is drawn. To you and I, the ethical line should be clear. Maybe the banned substance list. Right or wrong, it is supposed to be the rule.

The only explanation I have for that is something I realized long after I got out of the game. When I was playing, that is what I was. My job defined who I was. Now, as a husband and father, my job is what I do. What defines me is my my family. Sure there is some crossover. It isnt that cut and dried. I take my job seriously and try to do it better than anyone ever has but it stays here when I leave. So, if being a professional cyclist is what defines you, then you interpret what that means.

Not defending or criticizing anyone, just trying to add perspective.

[harlond]

Hey look. Its just the way it is and it isn't going to change. No anti-doping website, no riders union, no stupid petition will change Pro Cycling EVER. Do You honestly think that a funtional rider's Union is even possible? You obviously have never been involved with the infrastructure in Pro Cycling.... Most of the riders are scared ****less and will get down on their knees for a Contract, do You really think more than 2% of the current Pro's have the balls to go against the system or even question the system. The answer in NO, They don't alright. So You can forget about a fcuking Union, You can forget about doping in Pro Cycling to end, You can forget about ever seeing a "clean" winner of the TDF. Just fcuking forget about it, because none of that fairy tail, heroic bull***** will ever happen.Not being a believer in fairy tales, I have no expectation that pro cycling is clean. I do wish that my enjoyment of it wasn't so frequently diminished by the doping witch hunt, and I cannot understand why a strong rider's union could not have an effect on the witch hunt (as appears to be the case for the NFL and other major leagues). But if the longshoremen or textile workers or other laborers of decades past could unionize despite their relative powerlessness, why can't cyclists?

[e-RICHIE]

Not being a believer in fairy tales, I have no expectation that pro cycling is clean. I do wish that my enjoyment of it wasn't so frequently diminished by the doping witch hunt, and I cannot understand why a strong rider's union could not have an effect on the witch hunt (as appears to be the case for the NFL and other major leagues). But if the longshoremen or textile workers or other laborers of decades past could unionize despite their relative powerlessness, why can't cyclists?
all other pro team sports have franchises and owners
that stay the course. cycling, for the most part, is
sponsorship-driven. it would take a housecleaning
to make it into an american-ish sport, and it'll never
happen because it's a european-ish sport atmo.

[BBB]

In addition to being a traditionally European sport cycling is also an Olympic sport meaning the UCI has to adhere to the World Anti Drug Code (administered by WADA). Non-Olympic sports like NFL don't have this big stick hanging over them.