Why Do Our Sporing Heroes Cheat Atmo

[e-RICHIE]

(that's sporting heroes...)


dope? banned substances? fixed finishes? balco? testosterone patchs?
activogen? probnecide? here we are racking our freeking brains out
trying to figure out why our heroes do things that we think make no
sense. "if they know it's bad, why do they do it?". "how could they
all be using, and not all test positive?". "if they all do it, is it still
cheating?". swoop said it best (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=236258&postcount=73) the other day. when i find myself
too entwined in these threads (as occurs every july) i find myself
wanting to use this chestnut in almost every reply -
Jessep: You want answers?
Kaffee (Tom Cruise): I think I'm entitled to them.
Jessep: You want answers?
Kaffee: I want the truth!
Jessep: You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has walls. And those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall.
We use words like honor, code, loyalty...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent defending something. You use 'em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!







serenity now atmo.

[obtuse]

cheat? cheating is when you look in the back of the book for the answers while doing your math home work. if you call this "cheating" you're just jealous and stupid.

obtuse

[catulle]

(that's sporting heroes...)


dope? banned substances? fixed finishes? balco? testosterone patchs?
activogen? probnecide? here we are racking our freeking brains out
trying to figure out why our heroes do things that we think make no
sense. "if they know it's bad, why do they do it?". "how could they
all be using, and not all test positive?". "if they all do it, is it still
cheating?". swoop said it best (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=236258&postcount=73) the other day. when i find myself
too entwined in these threads (as occurs every july) i find myself
wanting to use this chestnut in almost every reply -
Jessep: You want answers?
Kaffee (Tom Cruise): I think I'm entitled to them.
Jessep: You want answers?
Kaffee: I want the truth!
Jessep: You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has walls. And those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall.
We use words like honor, code, loyalty...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent defending something. You use 'em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!

serenity now atmo.

Oh, no...! So we're back to Heracliitus...! Crnl. Jessep, that may be crystal clear but the end doesn't justify the means, atmo. Great copy from a fantastic script, but I don't mind that Stalin is burning in hell (ooops, if there is one, of course).

[BigDaddySmooth]

Was it the handler or the handled?

[shinomaster]

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.umsl.edu/~farrell/H2H/gallery/frankie/frankieMcGuire.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.umsl.edu/~farrell/H2H/gallery/frankie/frankie.html&h=400&w=270&sz=20&hl=en&start=3&tbnid=jSn9iAMrnlzu1M:&tbnh=124&tbnw=84&prev=

[Vanilla Gorilla]

http://wdfw.wa.gov/gallery/albums/Washington-State-Flora/Common_morel_mushroom_SF_Tieton_R_Jim_Cummins_phot o_copy.jpg


Morel Mushroom yo-

[keno]

"The Logic of Playing Dirty", by Alfie Kohn from his book "No Contest: The Case Against Competition" is an interesting look at the subject.

keno

[Climb01742]

cheating in sports is no different that cheating in business. in each case, the person is trying to do one or more of the following:

protect their liveihood.
enhance their pay.
gain a competitive advantage.
game the "system".
move up in the pecking order.
take an easier route.
ego gratification.

the stage on which the cheating occurs is different. but the stakes aren't. here's an example:

i onced worked for a creative director who, whenever he was stuck for an idea for an ad, would do this: in his office he always had a bunch of portfolios of creative people looking for a job. he would start opening portfolios and look for ideas he could steal. this "enhanced" his performance. this made a damn tough process easier. this protected his livihood. it got him raises and promotions.

it's true, i don't "understand" the daily details of the rigors of being a pro rider. but i do, vividly, understand the daily details of making a living. of moving up in a cut-throat, very competitive business, where every freaking day you better "perform". LOTS of people here face exactly the same thing every day. and there certainly is "pressure" in business to cut corners and "cheat".

it's fair to say that we don't understand the ins and outs of european bike racing. but it's not fair to say that we don't understand the pressures of trying to enhance your performance to protect your paycheck or to get a bigger one.

i'd bet money that every forum member at some point has had to face the choice of cheating or not cheating in their job. we understand that.

i'm NOT condemning riders. but i do reject the argument that we can't understand the underlying ethical choice. many of us face it often in our jobs. and yes our paychecks are on the line too.

[roman meal]

said it decades ago to his father when he said:

"everybody cheats. I just didn't know".
(sound of team Cinzano poster being ripped from the wall)

Let's rebuild that wheel that the 'ini stuck the Silca pump into, watch the rest of the movie again, and move on.

I may be seeing only parts of this that I want to see, but at its core this whole issue is the same. I don't think the sport has changed much since, and I don't think it will change much in the future.

[eddief]

"our sporting heroes?"

You get to choose if you want heroes or not. So maybe the entire concept of sports heroes or any other is simply a way for each of us to avoid being the hero we need to be/should be for our families, in our communities, in the world. Amen.

[davids]

http://images-jp.amazon.com/images/P/B00005MAG9.09.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

[obtuse]

http://images-jp.amazon.com/images/P/B00005MAG9.09.LZZZZZZZ.jpg


any more.

obtuse

[gary135r]

"our sporting heroes?"

You get to choose if you want heroes or not. So maybe the entire concept of sports heroes or any other is simply a way for each of us to avoid being the hero we need to be/should be for our families, in our communities, in the world. Amen.
That's the PC answer but, like it or not there are still sports heroes in peoples lives. If nothing else it is a form of escapism from this wacky world we live in. atmo

[eddief]

heroes. It is about you simply deciding for yourself. When sheep are faced with making choices, they follow no matter what.

[e-RICHIE]

heroes. It is about you simply deciding for yourself. When sheep are faced with making choices, they follow no matter what.

i like the sport, personalities aside atmo.

[swoop]

what would mel gibson do?
sporing? is this about flowers?

[eddief]

I agree with you about the sport. As a cycle nut, I appreciate the equipment, the sport, the "athletes'" and the competition. This board, I guess, becomes an extension of the hyped media and then, I too, get to decide which channels to watch or to choose to simply unplug.

[eddief]

would quote chapter and verse.

[e-RICHIE]

I agree with you about the sport. As a cycle nut, I appreciate the equipment, the sport, the "athletes'" and the competition. This board, I guess, becomes an extension of the hyped media and then, I too, get to decide which channels to watch or to choose to simply unplug.
too cryptic!

[Matt Barkley]

Heroes? I don't know why we continue to place so much emphasis on the "good examples" of guys who get paid more and more money in sports.

Related: I am constantly reminded of Formula One racing, where teams must exploite the rules to the maximun or they are not even competitive - - and the team is only found officially cheating if F1 officials prove it. Then the team is penalized and everyone moves forward. Every team constantly must figure ways out the "cheat" and look beyond the rules creatively. :argue:

[swoop]

get ready to hear a lot about mystery massage cream or saddle sore ointment..... because i think that's the only place left for the kid to go.

i can only imagine what he's going through... i mean i can't imagine.

[Cary Ford]

I think the guys who are still riding and trying to be competitive without 'doping' are the only 'heros' in cycling...I guess...

I think Lance is more of a cycling 'hero' than any other recent tdf winner because he used his success in cycling to actually do something that mattered to the real world - raising money and awareness for cancer research and inspiring people fighting that disease...that's worth something regardless of whether or not he was doper...or just a plain dope.

My personal cycling hero is still Greg LeMond because he inspired me when I was just starting to ride and race a bike...I forgive him his other more painful human qualities...

Bottom line with the whole doping thing to me is...the tour de france was created to sell newspapers. It is, was, always has been spectacle - that's it. It is simply not natural for a healthy human body to compete in the tour de france, so how could a natural body compete in it and stay healthy, not to mention that that particular body does for the other 10 months of the cycling season...Unnatural event requires an 'unnatural' (or doped, or enhanced or whatever you want to call it) body...I have no problem with that. It's not cheating, it's competing.

And, selfishly, I enjoy watching guys ride fast more than I enjoy watching them ride slow, so maybe a truly 'clean' tour equals a 'boring' tour for me...

I used to indulge in a little pre-race Claritin and Red Bull for my big Cat 4 and 3 events when I was racing ...I don't know if I raced any better, but I sure felt better after the race...

What was this thread about again?

Where am I?

[Too Tall]

Why? I've never been a hero. Yes, I've seen that look in the 8/9 yr. olds eyes when I was a camp counselor and they were at "that age" when adults were all knowing...bless their hearts. That "look" of admiration, the weight of being a HERO must be awful as is the desire to be that hero in your own mind, infact or for others. Why? You have to ask yourself to do like fixed said...walk a mile in their shoes...than ask again. We are magnificently imperfect.

[stevep]

We are magnificently imperfect.

i keep telling my wife i am magnificently perfect, and now you come out with this!
jayyysus i hope she does not see it.

coffees on me tt, anytime.

[swoop]

ice cube the actor... but not as the dude in torque.. is my hero.

[yeehawfactor]

i think it's very interesting to look at how cheating is perceived. i've read a decent amount about baseball history, particularly between the 20s-40s. when reading player's accounts of those eras years later, people who scuffed balls or threw spit balls or who skipped bases when the umpire wasn't looking were largely looked upon as mischievious and crafty, not cheaters. there were a lot of them and many of these players are now hall of famers. barry bonds is arguably a current cheater. he follows rules of play but uses peds and he is crucified by everyone, with some calling his legacy into question. at first i didn't really think so, but it seems that something similar is true with cycling, even with regards to doping. the inconsistancies are interesting. charly gaul took pills, but everyone took pills, and no one had access to better pills than anyone else. merckx was busted three times for amphetamines, but no one mentions that. now we see riders disgraced for positive tests. i agree with e-richie et-al(assuming i understand them correctly(atmo))-that part of the fuss over doping comes from wanting to know how and not liking the how. what i don't get is why public perception of merckx and gaul and zoetemelk and every other great rider who failed a test of some sort hasn't been tarnished as public perception of doping has changed. is it the same mix of nostalgia and fuzzy memories that keeps the reputation of old baseball players who cheated safe? is it that some sort of mental maginot line of tolerable types/scopes of cheating has been crossed? ***, as it were!

[bostondrunk]

imho bro atmo i'd buy it

Lemond is the man, imho bro atmo.

The heros cheat to stay on an even playing field, imho
, atmo bro cheers i'd buy it if...

[Too Tall]

Almost forgot to say it...Mel Gibson can bite me.