Poll, would you dope?

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Would you take performance enhancing drugs if it was safe, and would not hurt you, and would make you a much better cyclist. Even if it was just to get up that local difficult climb more easily, or to help a bum knee? Be honest!

[oracle]

i did, then i stopped as it started to frighten me.

[Vanilla Gorilla]

really? what were you afraid of?

[oracle]

killing myself

suicide is painless

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Oh yeah. That would suck. :banana:

[Avispa]

Hey,

Had you have a choice, such as "If I didn't know what is on the syringe..."*
I would have answered....

So there! :no:.





*And that was exactly what happened to me! So, when I found out, that was one of the reasons I quit racing...

[swoop]

at that level.. with all that is going on.. i wouldn't think of a sticky patch on the eggs to be doping. it would be like drinking endurox....

so.. yes.

[e-RICHIE]

if i had committed to the lifestyle and had done my homework
on the way up, it would not surprise me to find what exists at
the top. so - yes, i would dope. i would define doping as using
every available pharmaceutical (and other) resource in order
to boost my ability and recovery. i do not think i would use
banned substances. there's a difference atmo.

[Bill Bove]

Yeah what e-Richie said. But I think it would be very difficult to say no to actual banned substances, rationalizing is very easy. Blood boosting for example, I have no moral qualms about doing that, it is your own blood after all.

[Fixed]

let's see be a nobody or be somebody famous and rich ....hard choice for a kid with nothing going but bike racing ....stay in school i.m.h.o.

[Serpico]

I agree with Fixed, it's impossible to know someone else's situation

I'd like to say no--but I can't imagine the pressure these kids are under or what their background is--I blame the whole culture (yes, even the fans) for what we demand of the players involved

I just don't have the perspective--but I don't think I would dope

[Fixed]

bro when we were young how many of us said no?
cheers

[J.Greene]

I have had a hard two weeks. I'd take something right now if it would help me recover. I'm not much interested in cancer, or turning my blood into soup though.

JG

[Lifelover]

As a rec rider: Never

If I was pro potential: in a heart beat


Therefore: NEVER

[William]

http://www.metalwarrants.com/dope%203.jpg

:rolleyes:


Ok, I would like to say that I wouldn't get into doping. But, when your getting into the level where it takes full time training and commitment, and the dollars are needed to keep you going, pay the bills etc... And the level of competition is so close between riders, the urge to get that little edge over your competition is going to be big. It's a tough call. If you can afford it, you're going to be using supplements and "legal" pharmacuticals...just like the rest of the guys in the peloton. Again, to get that "edge", you'll have to consider stepping over the line. You know some of your competition is doing it. Greggy over there was pack fodder earlier in the season, all of a sudden he's starting to stomp on every one. Is he just coming into great form? Or is he getting some help from the darkside? You hear the rumors, you've raced against him and beat him for the last few years. All of a sudden he's a dynamo.
What do you do?

What would you do?


William

[e-RICHIE]

greggy?

[William]

greggy?

You remember lil' Greggy...

http://www.motorbyte.com/norton/images/little%20greggy.jpg



William ;)

[e-RICHIE]

You remember lil' Greggy...

http://www.motorbyte.com/norton/images/little%20greggy.jpg



William ;)
help

[coylifut]

Vince Lombardi said "fatigue makes cowards of us all." I'd like to say no, I would never dope or more to the point take a banned substance. However, I've never been a pro cyclist and faced the extreme mental and physical challenges that comes with the game. I have sat around a hotel room with fellow riders after a very hard stage of more than one amatuer stage race and said "man how do those guys do 20 days of this $hit."

Being that I'm over 40, sucessful in business, happily married and the father two wonderful daughters I have the luxury to say "I would never be a professional cyclist and therefore I would never dope." I can't say I would have the same answer at age 19.

[e-RICHIE]

this thread is lame.
you can only answer if your hypothetical job was to race professionally.



edit - coy beat me to it.

[Fat Robert]

three answers to this hypothetical question

18-22: no way. i had shoulder problems as a swimmer in college, and wouldn't take anything for them. i had pushed the recovery and rehab envelope with cortisone and e-stims for my knees in HS, and made one worse for it. so, in college i wouldn't even take an aspirin and i wouldn't touch anything other than my allergy meds. i thought that if i was injured, sore, or tired, that's how i was suppsed to be until i recovered naturally.

23-26: yes. I started a "better cat 2 living through supplements and cortisone" program. i spent a hundred or two each month on supplements that were supposed to help and took as many cortisone shots as my orthopedist would give me to keep my knees and ankle under control. a couple of times i went to see a differrent ortho to get a cortisone shot when mine wouldn't do it. i was a moron and had too much of my life invested in being a uscf bozo. if i had been one or two steps higher on the food chain (cat 1 or a pro) i would have crossed the line and taken whatever.

27-present: i'm back to "won't even take an aspirin." i looked at how much money i spent on supplements and cortisone shots, saw my right knee was a continual mess, realized i'd been obsessing over a recreational sport and goofing off at grad school rather than the other way around (actually, i never got beyond goofing off in grad school...i'm not sure whether it was eight productive or wasted years, to tell you the truth), and thought that it was all pretty ridiculous. these days i won't take anything other than an allegra and flonase unless i've recently been to the hospital (when i got those painkillers for my broken ribs last fall).

[Fat Robert]

this thread is lame.
you can only answer if your hypothetical job was to race professionally.



edit - coy beat me to it.

edit

after taking the time to write a long response, e-ritchie points out what i should have figured out from the get go

[Avispa]

if i had committed to the lifestyle and had done my homework
on the way up, it would not surprise me to find what exists at
the top. so - yes, i would dope. i would define doping as using
every available pharmaceutical (and other) resource in order
to boost my ability and recovery. i do not think i would use
banned substances. there's a difference atmo.

Would you be comfortable if the governing bodies/dope controllers of the sport put a clause that said:

"Unless previoulsy authorized, every available pharmaceutical product or resource is considered a banned substance... Therefore, all athletes testing postive to anything not listed or authorized will be disqualified"

I think as you said, then Pedro Delgado would have goten busted in '88, no? In any case, I believe that in cycling, the UCI has (almost) absolute control when it comes to the equipment that can be used, right? Look, they even fine riders when they mutilate or roll up the sleeves on their jerseys. So I would not have a problem with this...

[Vanilla Gorilla]

this thread is lame.
you can only answer if your hypothetical job was to race professionally.



edit - coy beat me to it.

Or if you just want to be a better rider on your local double century. Or in you live in the mountains and can barely ride up them. Or if you are a cat 3 racer and can find the stuff. Or if you have bad joints. A person can desire to enhance their riding without being a pro.

[saab2000]

What is 'doping'? Is it taking an aspirin? Is it taking iron injections?

E-Richie got it right. Taking banned substances and taking other stuff are different things. What's banned is banned. Black and white. What is not banned and what is 'ethical' is another story and much fuzzier.

But in the world of doping or not doping there is a list of banned substances.

I drank half a bottle of Diet Pepsi on the way to the Fat Frogs ride this morning in Virginia Beach. Afterwards I had a yogurt and some granola and some more diet pepsi. This food and caffeine helped me recover. Is that doping?

[Vanilla Gorilla]

I think what the WADA and the media talk about are EPO, growth hormone, cortizone, etc. Not over the counter vitamins and gatoraid, or bananas.

[saab2000]

Not everything over the counter is legal. And not everything 'under the counter' is illegal.

And some of the illegal things certainly enhance performance yet are probably less dangerous (under strict medical supervision) than some legal, over the counter cold medicines would be.

The issue of what is and what is not doping is not really black and white.

Cheating is bogus. I will make my opinion on that clear. But what is and what is not cheating with regards to doping is not always clear. With that said, the list is published and those of us who participate in the Fat Frogs rides in Virginia Beach had better be aware of this list!!!

[catulle]

If I would have been asked to ride for a pro team when I was 20, I'd certainly would've allowed the docs to improve the capacity of my body to take more oxygen to my muscles. Now, though, I feel like fainting when they take blood from my arm to check my cholesterol.

Hell, at my local gym, doctors are prescribing DHEA and testosterone like crazy to the old geezers fighting old age. Thankfully, I'm an SDS child from the sixties who had plenty of fun during the free-love pre-AIDS era; so now I'm very happy taking the missus to the movies on Saturdays (especially when they are playing Scarlett's movies :cool: ), and taking long naps after trying to catch a rear wheel here and there for a little while. Moreover, now that I've learned that Jack Daniels is good for my testosterone I'm very, very happy, atmo.

[shinomaster]

sds?

[Ray]

My only basis for thinking about this is how well I ride (relative to my sorry self only, of course) after riding in the mountains for a week or two. Twice in the past several years, I've done bike tours at high altitude. After returning to sea-level and taking a couple of days to recover and reacclimate, I've ridden like an absolute monster relative to the way I usually ride. I always ride well after the stress of a tour and a bit of recovery, but this was another level.

If, somehow, I was a competitive pro racer when I was younger and someone offered me the opportunity to ride that much better in a way that they could convince me wouldn't affect my long term health, I'd have probably done it. Particularly if so many of the folks I was competing against were also doing it and it would bring me up to a level to be able to compete.

But that's so vastly and hugely hypothetical as to be meaningless. In any actual experience I've had, of course I wouldn't.

-Ray

[catulle]

sds?

Students for a Democratic Society, The Weather Underground, you must be very young, Shino :D Good for you...!!

[e-RICHIE]

Would you be comfortable if the governing bodies/dope controllers of the sport put a clause that said:

"Unless previoulsy authorized, every available pharmaceutical product or resource is considered a banned substance... Therefore, all athletes testing postive to anything not listed or authorized will be disqualified"

I think as you said, then Pedro Delgado would have goten busted in '88, no? In any case, I believe that in cycling, the UCI has a control almost like this when it comes to the equipment, right? Look, they even fine riders when they mutilate or roll up the sleeves on their jerseys. So I would not have a problem with this...
delgado tested positive for a substance that
wasn't banned. but to take your bait, why not
require all ingested materials that are not "food"
to be listed by teams and approved for use by the
powers tha be?

[e-RICHIE]

Or if you just want to be a better rider on your local double century. Or in you live in the mountains and can barely ride up them. Or if you are a cat 3 racer and can find the stuff. Or if you have bad joints. A person can desire to enhance their riding without being a pro.
to dope just to do the things you cite
is a mental disorder. i would say that
the job of a professional athlete and
the recreational outlets of weekend
warriors have nothing in common.

[Vanilla Gorilla]

to dope just to do the things you cite
is a mental disorder. i would say that
the job of a professional athlete and
the recreational outlets of weekend
warriors have nothing in common.

Perhaps, but I have had cronic hip and knee pain for years. Sometimes it makes cycling up hills very painful. If I could get a cortizone shot to help (which I don't really know would help) I would. My grandmother has arthritis and gets them in her knees. What is the difference? I don't race, so it isn't doping right? But it may be performance enhancing.

[coylifut]

Perhaps, but I have had cronic hip and knee pain for years. Sometimes it makes cycling up hills very painful. If I could get a cortizone shot to help (which I don't really know would help) I would. My grandmother has arthritis and gets them in her knees. What is the difference? I don't race, so it isn't doping right? But it may be performance enhancing.

at that point , it's not doping, it's medication.

[e-RICHIE]

i use a fair amount of formula 303 as well as dr bach's rescue remedy
(a few drops under my tongue at the start - when no one's looking).
extraterrestrial-issimo atmo.

[Avispa]

delgado tested positive for a substance that
wasn't banned. but to take your bait, why not
require all ingested materials that are not "food"
to be listed by teams and approved for use by the
powers tha be?

Hey! I am for that... I guess not all doping products have to be injected, right?

By the way, I like to point out that I would NOT dope, not because it is on an "approved list". I would not dope because I think the risk of using something (possibly or remotedly) dangerous to my health is not good!. And this includes sharing/using dirty syringes... There is always a choice, and that choice is change or quit your job if you can't stand it!

[e-RICHIE]

Hey! I am for that... I guess not all doping products have to be injected, right?
not all doping products are banned either atmo.



By the way, I like to point out that I would NOT dope, not because it is on an "approved list". I would not dope because I think the risk of using something (possibly or remotedly) dangerous to my health is not good!. And this includes sharing/using dirty syringes... There is always a choice, and that choice is change or quit your job if you can't stand it!


culturally, it's easier for an american to walk
away from the D3 $12thou dream than it is for
a kid already in the racing system over there.

[Avispa]

not all doping products are banned either atmo.

See my revision....

[e-RICHIE]

See my revision....
See my revision...

[Avispa]

culturally, it's easier for an american to walk
away from the D3 $12thou dream than it is for
a kid already in the racing system over there.

Got it! And I consider myself lucky, even though I was not born an American!

Cheers!

[ergott]

As similarly stated before, I'm no pro so the answer I would give is fruitless. This line of questioning reminds me of a bunch of kids asking each other, "If you had a gun, would you kill someone?"

[e-RICHIE]

As similarly stated before, I'm no pro so the answer I would give is fruitless. This line of questioning reminds me of a bunch of kids asking each other, "If you had a gun, would you kill someone?"


me too atmo. (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=237249&postcount=20)

[Dekonick]

if i had committed to the lifestyle and had done my homework
on the way up, it would not surprise me to find what exists at
the top. so - yes, i would dope. i would define doping as using
every available pharmaceutical (and other) resource in order
to boost my ability and recovery. i do not think i would use
banned substances. there's a difference atmo.

I agree 100% -

[oracle]

this thread is lame.
you can only answer if your hypothetical job was to race professionally.


neither the thread nor the question is "lame". i used to race bikes, and now i'm a bike rider who enters bike races, and i consider it to be an interesting question to ponder. it is also interesting to hear what people think in an obviously hypothetical context, who seem to be rather opinionated about the subject. you can answer the question in whatever capacity you feel like. imperiously declaring that there is only one way to answer or think about these subjects can't really do anything but further alienate people on the 'ouside' of the sport who may just want to understand more.

[Vanilla Gorilla]

at that point , it's not doping, it's medication.

what if I were to then try racing?

[e-RICHIE]

neither the thread nor the question is "lame". i used to race bikes, and now i'm a bike rider who enters bike races, and i consider it to be an interesting question to ponder. it is also interesting to hear what people think obviously in a hypothetical context, who seem to be rather opinionated about the subject. you can answer the question in whatever capacity you feel like. imperiously declaring that there is only one way to answer or think about these subjects can't really do anything but further alienate people on the 'ouside' of the sport who may just want to understand more.
well heck the last thing i would wanna do is
alienate people that have any interest whatsoever
in bicycles in any way shape or form.
i'll stand with my first post here: if i
were a pro, that means my eyes were
opened all along on the way up the food
chain. were i to choose the profession, i
would certainly dope. would i use banned
substances? i'd like to think not. were i
a pro would i use the banned substances
if the support system around me that pays
my salary aids in the covering up or assures
me that "we" can beat the testers? well,
mebbe i'd cave abit. ya' see, it all depends
on what's at stake. i know of very few pro
that have an employable skill away from
the sport. that fact clouds the issue and the
choices too.
does this text help?

[Tom]

then no. If I knew something everybody else didn't and I thought it wouldn't kill me but was totally alien to what my body could do on its own, I'd do it. As soon as they caught on and made it outside the rules, I'd have to stop. The bastidges.

[amper]

If I had the genetics and the work ethic required with Master Ferrari at the helm, yes I would. I strongly believe that you cannot be at the top of this game without it. These guys do not think of it as doping, its daily maintenance to keep the engine going at optimum speed and efficiency.

[catulle]

If I had the genetics and the work ethic required with Master Ferrari at the helm, yes I would. I strongly believe that you cannot be at the top of this game without it. These guys do not think of it as doping, its daily maintenance to keep the engine going at optimum speed and efficiency.


Must be the weather, but I find myself agreeing all too aften with the guys from Florida :confused:

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Must be the weather, but I find myself agreeing all too aften with the guys from Florida :confused:

Most of them moved there for somewhere else, like New York.

Hey it's almost a tie score. All we need is one more doper.

[Vanilla Gorilla]

at that level.. with all that is going on.. i wouldn't think of a sticky patch on the eggs to be doping. it would be like drinking endurox....

so.. yes.

I thought you were a cat 3?

[oracle]

well heck the last thing i would wanna do is
alienate people that have any interest whatsoever
in bicycles in any way shape or form.
i'll stand with my first post here: if i
were a pro, that means my eyes were
opened all along on the way up the food
chain. were i to choose the profession, i
would certainly dope. would i use banned
substances? i'd like to think not. were i
a pro would i use the banned substances
if the support system around me that pays
my salary aids in the covering up or assures
me that "we" can beat the testers? well,
mebbe i'd cave abit. ya' see, it all depends
on what's at stake. i know of very few pro
that have an employable skill away from
the sport. that fact clouds the issue and the
choices too.
does this text help?


does it sound like i was asking for help? re-read my post ..
Originally Posted by oracle
neither the thread nor the question is "lame". i used to race bikes, and now i'm a bike rider who enters bike races, and i consider it to be an interesting question to ponder. it is also interesting to hear what people think obviously in a hypothetical context, who seem to be rather opinionated about the subject. you can answer the question in whatever capacity you feel like. imperiously declaring that there is only one way to answer or think about these subjects can't really do anything but further alienate people on the 'ouside' of the sport who may just want to understand more.

in response to:
this thread is lame.
you can only answer if your hypothetical job was to race professionally.


since you bemoan the fact that this topic is perpetually up for discussion, and since you seem to feel qualified to respond to nearly every thread that involves doping, you might consider being a bit less 'witty' with your responses and excercize a bit of patience for the simple 'fans' out there. that's all i'm sayin....

[Too Tall]

"Would you take performance enhancing drugs if it was safe, and would not hurt you, and would make you a much better cyclist."

I don't know any PED that is safe, will not hurt me AND make me a MUCH better cyclist.

However you changed the game and the question along the way...morphing it to suss out positive answers at the lowest order by dangling our very happiness in front of our faces...getting up that hill faster or riding a better century and that's BS.

*** is this amateur night at WADA?!

PS - Twizz et al. who anwered with interest, perspective and honesty. Ya'all rock.

[e-RICHIE]

since you bemoan the fact that this topic is perpetually up for discussion, and since you seem to feel qualified to respond to nearly every thread that involves doping, you might consider being a bit less 'witty' with your responses and excercize a bit of patience for the simple 'fans' out there. that's all i'm sayin....
ouch.



sorry -
again, it is very simple.
why do sports figures use help from the medical and pharmaceutical
trade? because some sports (pro cycling...) are beyond routine abilities
yet many folks get paid to do them. furthermore, these guys are rolling
billboards. the floor show. and, as jgreene said in another thread,
some races (the tdf) were created to market a commercial entity.
the folks underwriting it all want a spectacle. after a while, the
underwriters all want to have bigger spectacles than each other,
and the calendar is filled from jan to oct, yet the athlete pool for
nearly all of it is a few hundred at most.

it's not that these guys are physically taxed beyond human capability;
they are. but going back to day one, drug use was part of the sport.
it's in the culture, and it goes back 100 years.

if you think i am witty with my replies to this issue, then i will
apologize to you. if you think that i should exercise more patience
with my text, i will add that what i said in the opening words of this
reply is the same thing (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=237482&postcount=3) i have said about the issue in every thread
that i've participated in here atmo.


edit - link added as an example.

[Samster]

I think what the WADA and the media talk about are EPO, growth hormone, cortizone, etc. Not over the counter vitamins and gatoraid, or bananas. cortisone and Gatorade eh? aren't attitude tents OTC?

[Samster]

what if I were to then try racing?are you driving towards some particular point? or are you just throwing out a line to see what comes in?

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Wow you guys are a tough crowd. Remember this IS just a glorified cycling chat-room, with largly anonomous members. I think we have all learned a lot this past week.

[shaq-d]

Wow you guys are a tough crowd. Remember this IS just a glorified cycling chat-room, with largly anonomous members. I think we have all learned a lot this past week.

hey, don't give up. love your posts.

sd

[catulle]

since you bemoan the fact that this topic is perpetually up for discussion, and since you seem to feel qualified to respond to nearly every thread that involves doping, you might consider being a bit less 'witty' with your responses and excercize a bit of patience for the simple 'fans' out there. that's all i'm sayin....

Hey, what's wrong with witty? I like witty... :confused:

[Samster]

..