shoe questions - width and custom orthotics

[kgreene10]

Does anyone know whether the "wide" designation for Specialized and Shimano road shoes means a wider last all around or just wider in the toe box?

Also, has anyone had a good experience with a mail order custom orthotic maker that does bike specific orthotics using a foam crush box for impressions? I'm not interested in non-custom options or heat moldeable ones. I'm only interested in trained professionals making fully custom orthotics from a foam crush box impression. I have a pair that are just too bulky. Rocket 7 appears to do what I want, but no response yet after a couple of inquiries. Any other options? Thanks!

[eddief]

I do have custom ones; one pair for regular shoes, a different pair for my cycling shoes. You live in a major metro cycling mecca, so not sure why you'd do mail order when one would think you could do face to face in Austin.

Dr. Doug did mine many years ago in person. He used to have a fine reputation for working with cyclists, but I have not had contact in a long time. He did have a way to work through the mail:

http://www.wellfeet.com/

[11.4]

Are you asking if the width is increased linearly or proportionately over the length of the foot? No. Each shoe designer has a different idea of what a wider foot might need. Because the ball spreads more than anything, and above all in cycling, it tends to get disproportionately greater width. But the forefoot volume may not be all that much greater -- the idea is to provide width without excessive volume or height to the foot space. Beyond that, it's different for pretty much each shoe. I've fit lots of shoes on riders and they are always different. Individual models also differ significantly within a brand, and models differ significantly year to year. Hate to say it but you just have to fit the shoes in person.

When cycling, the forefoot either has to be supported on a non-level platform or one has to allow for ankle rotation laterally. Unlike running, cycling doesn't tend to flatten the arch the same way. Accordingly, newer thought on cycling shoes is to provide a stable platform at the ball of the feet and not attempt to support the arch or heel. Too much correction just exacerbates problems. Further, there have been some large long-term studies on the efficacy of orthotic correction in pronated feet. The outcome was that the orthotics didn't do all that much, and individuals who did training to strengthen the supporting musculature in the foot had better results. Another outcome of these studies was that injury-reducing footwear for runners really didn't reduce injury rates and may have increased them. It keeps coming back to the whole question of whether overcorrection causes more problems. Some of the early comments on this came from people in the minimalist shoe movement, but the larger and better run studies have found even stronger evidence that orthotics may be a practice open to significant skepticism. It's a big part of a podiatrist's business, but the evidence says most people don't need them and may be hurt by them. If you haven't looked at some of these results, I'd suggest you take a look.

If you want a high quality orthotic and a shoe to match, all designed for cycling, I'd suggest you call Don at D2 shoes. There are other custom shoe makers, such as Riivo, but Don gives pretty fast turnaround and his work with orthotics and complex shoe interiors is second to none.

[John H.]

I have found that the wide version of Shimano and Specialized shoes are more high volume than wide.
They still use the same sole as the same size standard shoe.

[John H.]

I would try to find someone local to make you insoles.
It is not uncommon to needs modifications or tweaking to make them perfect- this is easier if the maker is close by.

I also have cycling insoles made by Doug Ehrenberg. He has made insoles for me for over 20 years.

[kgreene10]

I would try to find someone local to make you insoles.
It is not uncommon to needs modifications or tweaking to make them perfect- this is easier if the maker is close by.

I also have cycling insoles made by Doug Ehrenberg. He has made insoles for me for over 20 years.

Thanks. I haven't found anyone who knows feet and cycling in Austin and can make me a low-volume orthotic. I've looked.

But Ehrenberg may be the ticket. I grew up near his office and will be out for a visit in March, so that may work well.

[kgreene10]

I have found that the wide version of Shimano and Specialized shoes are more high volume than wide.
They still use the same sole as the same size standard shoe.

Great info. So not a good option to get extra width in the toe box for my very low-volume feet.

[kgreene10]

...Too much correction just exacerbates problems. Further, there have been some large long-term studies on the efficacy of orthotic correction in pronated feet. The outcome was that the orthotics didn't do all that much, and individuals who did training to strengthen the supporting musculature in the foot had better results....

If you want a high quality orthotic and a shoe to match, all designed for cycling, I'd suggest you call Don at D2 shoes. There are other custom shoe makers, such as Riivo, but Don gives pretty fast turnaround and his work with orthotics and complex shoe interiors is second to none.

Thank you -- as usual, a very informative and nicely written post. I tried PT for years to correct a hip issue probably inherited from a crash. Eventually, the PT recommended orthotics. They have helped tremendously and without them, my leg collapses to the TT, I overweight the outside, and I suffer like a dog.

Unfortunately, the orthotics are now getting worn and they are super bulky and heavy. Local pedorthists want to produce the same thick foam-based type of orthotic. I assume it needs to be thick given the height correction for my particular foot. From his online info, Don at D2 seems to use the same process. I would love fully custom shoes but the cost is quite high. The appeal of Rocket 7 orthotics is that they appear to mold carbon to the needed shape and then attach a thin topper over it.

[BdaGhisallo]

Thank you -- as usual, a very informative and nicely written post. I tried PT for years to correct a hip issue probably inherited from a crash. Eventually, the PT recommended orthotics. They have helped tremendously and without them, my leg collapses to the TT, I overweight the outside, and I suffer like a dog.

Unfortunately, the orthotics are now getting worn and they are super bulky and heavy. Local pedorthists want to produce the same thick foam-based type of orthotic. I assume it needs to be thick given the height correction for my particular foot. From his online info, Don at D2 seems to use the same process. I would love fully custom shoes but the cost is quite high. The appeal of Rocket 7 orthotics is that they appear to mold carbon to the needed shape and then attach a thin topper over it.

Drop Don a line because he does have a network of fitters that can do an in person fitting if you can't get out to D2.

And I can echo the previous comments. D2s cost a lot but you will not regret spending the money on them. They are that good.

Geoff

[oldguy00]

Does your orthotic mainly give you some extra height in the arch and/or metatarsal (sp?)?
If yes, have you ever tried the Specialized line of orthotics?
I tried many customs, including full custom shoes from R7, and custom carbon orthotics from places that specialized in cycling orthotics.
Eventually I ended up with stock shoes (Shimano usually) and green Specialized insoles (green give the most support, blue are middle, red lowest).
Might be worth giving a try before laying out more $$$ for full custom?

[ultraman6970]

IMHO you can get almost the same results with heat moldeable insoles, but you dont want to use them (i ignore if you tried them at some point). And here is where is gets tricky for you because personally never seen a single custom insole from a doctor that is not at least 5 mm thick.

Moldeable works, you have SOLE that several forumites use and even in those ones if you dont want to mold them just put them in your regular shoe and walk with them for a month or 2, they will mold to you, I use those ones in my regular shoes. I got a set of lake moldeable insoles, still need to ride with them but so far they look ok, they kind'a shaped fine. There are other germans firms that make carbon moldeable insoles in a matter of fact the nicest ones moldeable insoles I ever seen arent for cycling but for Ice hockey, i would love to try them super nice material and really thin like Sole but stiffer. Need to find a set for the right price (cheap).

IME as somebody said, some shoes tend to bigger all around other ones in the toe box. since is not that clear what is what are you looking for besides "I want a doctor to do them", is hard to know what your problem is.


" I overweight the outside, and I suffer like a dog."... IME you have two ways to fix this... a shim... or move the cleats angle a little bit, but all depends of the shoe. I would put piece of handlebar tape under the insole, to give you the support the insole is not giving you.

A good start would be telling us which are your problems? or what do you want to fix? Everybody is different but sometimes the guys here came up with the wierdest out of the box solutions to feet problems. In my case I just needed wider shoes (lake) with stock insoles and move the cleats angle and pretty much that did it.

[benb]

Cyclesoles is a really nice orthotic product that is low volume, I've had a pair for a few years now, I've had both a foam cycling orthotic way back in the past and a CNC version made out of a harder material in the past too.. I like the cycle soles the most and they don't seem to require much if any extra volume in the shoe. Cyclesoles are very hard once in the shoe too though FWIW.

I would say I have had increasing trouble over the years with hotfoot with all of these orthotics though, the softer foam ones (which were also the cheapest) seem to be the least likely to cause hotfoot for me. Also having them be a 3/4 orthotic seems to be better as they don't crowd your toes at all. That's just me though, the other thing that seems to help me is actually using a slightly more flexible sole. I am somewhat convinced carbon soles give me more hot foot despite the industry pushing for stiffer and stiffer. My power #s do not go down with more flexible soles and my feet stay a lot more comfortable. (I actually make more power over long duration too as my feet don't become a limiter.)

[eddief]

I'd bet either of these guys would do right by you. But you probably already did the google or know different. Good luck.


http://www.lonestarpodiatry.com/

http://www.austinfitmagazine.com/Are-Custom-Orthotics-Right-For-You/

http://www.stevecuddy.com/services/

"Steve has successfully treated elite cyclists, triathletes, runners, and Olympic swimmers, as well as professional cyclists, baseball, basketball, soccer, football players, golfers, and BMXers."

[djg21]

Does anyone know whether the "wide" designation for Specialized and Shimano road shoes means a wider last all around or just wider in the toe box?

Also, has anyone had a good experience with a mail order custom orthotic maker that does bike specific orthotics using a foam crush box for impressions? I'm not interested in non-custom options or heat moldeable ones. I'm only interested in trained professionals making fully custom orthotics from a foam crush box impression. I have a pair that are just too bulky. Rocket 7 appears to do what I want, but no response yet after a couple of inquiries. Any other options? Thanks!

http://www.d2shoe.com/ortho_otherbrand.php. If you have extremely wide feet, you should think about D2 shoes, which come with custom insoles. The shoes are worth the price and last forever. The pair I just replaced I've had since 2006 and are still in great shape. The pair before that is in my closet and still used for spin classes.

I have a very wide forefoot (eeee), narrow heel, and low volume foot. Most wide shoes aren't narrow enough at the heel for me and have too much volume over the instep. I have used Sidi Megas and Shimano wide shoes for MTB/CX riding, and the Mega was the better fit of the two for my width and volume. Neither were great.

If you're concerned about doing the crush box, read the instructions on the D2 website and watch the video. http://www.d2shoe.com/fitkit.php. Then ask Don to do a video fit via a Skype. You can train your camera (I used an iPad) on your feet and a Don will walk you and your helper step by step through the fitting process while he watches.