Floyd at Larry King's (CNN) tonight...

[catulle]

FYI

[ergott]

and the Yankees are playing.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . it's pretty much wasted time to watch, atmo. We know what he's going to say. We know why he's going to say it. At this point it's what we in the newspaper biz call an "incremental" story--there to fill space because we feel we HAVe to say SOMETHING, but there's no really new developments to make it interesting.

Besides, I don't have cable. :rolleyes:

BBD

[Kevin]

I think Tyler sent him the script for the interview. ;)

Kevin

[catulle]

and the Yankees are playing.

Oh, no...! Gosh, Eric, I had you in a pedestal. Yankees...? Let's put it this way, my favorite t-shirt reads: My team is the Red Sox, or any team that beats the Yankees. Being Mariano's compatriot, life sometimes gets difficult for me. Oh, well, no one is perfect, I guess. I hope your wheels are better than your choice of team. ;)

[Big Dan]

Actually by this time the number of beers and Jack Daniels shots may have changed.
Last I heard 4 shots of Jack and he lost count on the beers. I'm trying it out right now............. :p

You guys think I can replace the Jack with Sauza tequila....... :beer:

[catulle]

He said he has no idea how can testosterone or any other PED help you improve your riding. I find that hard to believe (understatement?). Seems like experienced people are coaching him. Poor guy, he's really going thru a rough spot. Ooops, now comes Lance...!

[Big Dan]

I think the guy needs a drink...or two..... :beer:

[GoJavs]

No-one EVER lies to Larry King. :cool:

[catulle]

I think the guy needs a drink...or two..... :beer:

Yup. Either some high-octane Bacardi 150, or plain jet fuel.

[catulle]

Wow, now the doc. Jeezzz, this is a well orchestrated gig, atmo...!

[GoJavs]

The Publicity Machine is in full alert. The only problem is that the second test is being done in Europe not outside CNN's studios.

[e-RICHIE]

Ooops, now comes Lance...!

was that a virtual reach-around?











"someday, and that day may never come, I will ask a favor of you. . .''

[GoJavs]

What's the likelihood Landis signs with Disco now?

[catulle]

was that a virtual reach-around?











"someday, and that day may never come, I will ask a favor of you. . .''

Actually, I was just fixing the IV.

[Grant McLean]

Call me a sap. I believe him.

g

[Big Dan]

I'm thinking Floyd is endorsing his first check to Lance and his second to that wacky doctor that just came out.....


Let me know when they mention Tugboat or the twin.....
:p

[GoJavs]

A lot of people will believe him.

This is not a comparison of situations...but back in 1994/95 when OJ was acquitted we were watching it on TV in the office when the verdict was read and as soon as they said NOT GUILTY about half of the office started cheering...!

This is just the way the court of public opinion works.

[catulle]

It seems as if Lance and/or the Lance people are at the wheel now, atmo.

[catulle]

And Sheryl on Monday...? Jeezzz, they're really throwing the house out of the window...!

[e-RICHIE]

Call me a sap. I believe him.

g
floyd? yeah. he did nothing. getting testost for that stage
would not have affected the results at all. ya know what
really grates on me? the media talks about that one bad
day as if he came in last atmo. fercrisakes, he was with
ALL the gc leaders (except m ras) to within 5.5 miles of
the finish. anyone who's ever raced knows that when you
get to the near-end and blow, you mail it in to the finish
line. so - while klodi, sas, per, cad, etc, were still racing
the last 4 miles, floyd basically coasted in. and he lost less
than 6-7 minutes to the key guys. the press say he lost
more than 10 minutes that day, but that was to m ras,
not to the guys that mattered.
all that said, he only rode the last 3-4 miles alone, and at
a pace that suited him, while the other guys went ahead.
he hardly lost the race that day atmo, and atmo that makes
his ability to bounce back the next day less difficult to fathom,
mainly because all the other guys were wasted then, compared
to his being wasted in that last stretch of the prior stage.

[Grant McLean]

I lost respect for Lance. Bringing up the fact that the lab in france
is the one that did his epo tests is exactly the wrong way to go.
It's just not believeable that there is some conspiracy. I mean, what
evidence does Lance have to make that claim? What Floyd does not
need is more stupid people bringing up non scientific theories.

Let the B test run it's course, and then have some science guys look
at what it means.

g

[Andreas]

getting testost for that stage
would not have affected the results at all.

The above statement is wrong.
Well documented benefits of short term T on muscle recovery.
Not saying he doped, just saying the statement is totally off.

[GoJavs]

Lance has been pitching his conspiracy theory in the media for weeks (or months) now and obviously no-one in the US media has called him out on it.

If you search google/yahoo, you'll hear his statements about how the lab, L'Equipe, The French Ministry of Sport and the organizers of the Tour all conspired to try to take him down.

Conspiracy Theory - I remember that movie. Not a good one.

[catulle]

I just hope they let the other shoe drop fast...! I wish I could send old Floyd a liter bottle of Jack Daniel's right now.

[Grant McLean]

....snip... that makes
his ability to bounce back the next day less difficult to fathom,
mainly because all the other guys were wasted then, compared
to his being wasted in that last stretch of the prior stage.

Call me stupid, but the bounce back didn't bother me one bit.

I never believed that the good day and the bad day had anything to do
with each other. If the basis for people doubting Floyd's stage win
is because he popped the day before, i say they're nuts.

Maybe i don't know my head from my arse, but i've been riding almost every day
for 25 years, and I've popped and bonked tons of times. I've got on a roll
of great 'no chain' days, followed by days where the legs feel like lead.
It's the string of Armstrong's races of perfection that raise my eyebrow.

g

[e-RICHIE]

The above statement is wrong.
Well documented benefits of short term T on muscle recovery.
Not saying he doped, just saying the statement is totally off.
okay. every report i saw said that taking testo
after the "bad" stage would not have affected
his ability to excel so on the "good" stage.
that's bad info?

[hmbmd]

Landis would have been tested after the stage 15 (yellow jersey at alpe d'huez), stage 17 (the positive in question), stage 19 (reclaiming the yellow jersey after the time trial), and stage 20 (the last day in yellow). I assume that with the exception of stage 17 all the T/E ratios were less than 4:1. If he doped before stage 17 that could explain a positive result. What I would like to know is how quickly that ratio returns to normal. If the ratio stays elevated for some time then one would expect the test to be grater than 4:1 for stage 19 and 20. Any thoughts??

[J.Greene]

Landis would have been tested after the stage 15 (yellow jersey at alpe d'huez), stage 17 (the positive in question), stage 19 (reclaiming the yellow jersey after the time trial), and stage 20 (the last day in yellow). I assume that with the exception of stage 17 all the T/E ratios were less than 4:1. If he doped before stage 17 that could explain a positive result. What I would like to know is how quickly that ratio returns to normal. If the ratio stays elevated for some time then one would expect the test to be grater than 4:1 for stage 19 and 20. Any thoughts??

maybe he was extra happy to see the podium girls again.

JG

[PanTerra]

A lot of people will believe him.

This is not a comparison of situations...but back in 1994/95 when OJ was acquitted we were watching it on TV in the office when the verdict was read and as soon as they said NOT GUILTY about half of the office started cheering...!


YOu're kidding. We were floored. We couldn't believe how the jury blew that one. :crap: At least we could see first hand the fiasco in that courtroom. More cameras in the courtroom!

[obtuse]

okay. every report i saw said that taking testo
after the "bad" stage would not have affected
his ability to excel so on the "good" stage.
that's bad info?


a testosterone patch does make you feel like a million bucks and doesn't take long to work. hormones are funny things and i have no idea if its receptors telling the brain stuff before the ish actually takes effect or what...but its common protocol (or at least it was in the early to mid nineties; ) to treat a bad day with testosterone.

never really thought of it as doping; even though it really is. must be the lack of needles or lack of conscience or something.


obtuse

[Grant McLean]

Landis would have been tested after the stage 15 (yellow jersey at alpe d'huez), stage 17 (the positive in question), stage 19 (reclaiming the yellow jersey after the time trial), and stage 20 (the last day in yellow). I assume that with the exception of stage 17 all the T/E ratios were less than 4:1. If he doped before stage 17 that could explain a positive result. What I would like to know is how quickly that ratio returns to normal. If the ratio stays elevated for some time then one would expect the test to be grater than 4:1 for stage 19 and 20. Any thoughts??

I'm confused. If he did dope, it makes no
sense to have just left him with an elevated T.
If he raised his T, they would just inject some E,
and preserve the ratio? no?

g

[GoJavs]

I was ticked. The girl that clapped the loudest was our receptionist who at the time had a boyfriend that supposedly beat up on her all the time. Go figure! :confused:

The court of public opinion is one very disturbed place.

[obtuse]

I'm confused. If he did dope, it makes no
sense to have just left him with an elevated T.
If he raised his T, they would just inject some E,
and preserve the ratio? no?

g


'cause it doesn't work that way. the "t" is not injected.

obtuse

[Grant McLean]

'cause it doesn't work that way. the "t" is not injected.

obtuse

Injected, added, patched, smoked, whatever.

look, I don't think any of us know science, but you sure can inject it.

Generic Name: Testosterone Suspension

Testosterone suspension is an injectable preparation containing unesterfied testosterone in a water base. Among athletes, testosterone suspension has a reputation of being an extremely potent injectable, often ranked highest among the testosterones. Very fast acting, testosterone suspension will sustain elevated testosterone levels for only 2-3 days. Athletes will most commonly inject "suspension" daily, at a dosage of 50-100 mg. Although this drug requires frequent injections, it will pass through a needle as fine as a 27 gague insulin

[PanTerra]

I was ticked. The girl that clapped the loudest was our receptionist who at the time had a boyfriend that supposedly beat up on her all the time. Go figure! :confused:

The court of public opinion is one very disturbed place.

Oh my, did she also sympathize with the Mendendez brothers because they were orphans?

[Johny]

I'm confused. If he did dope, it makes no
sense to have just left him with an elevated T.
If he raised his T, they would just inject some E,
and preserve the ratio? no?

g

E is indeed a masking agent in this case.

[obtuse]

Injected, added, patched, smoked, whatever.

look, I don't think any of us know science, but you sure can inject it.

Generic Name: Testosterone Suspension

Testosterone suspension is an injectable preparation containing unesterfied testosterone in a water base. Among athletes, testosterone suspension has a reputation of being an extremely potent injectable, often ranked highest among the testosterones. Very fast acting, testosterone suspension will sustain elevated testosterone levels for only 2-3 days. Athletes will most commonly inject "suspension" daily, at a dosage of 50-100 mg. Although this drug requires frequent injections, it will pass through a needle as fine as a 27 gague insulin

i know grant i wasn't disagreeing with you but in cycling testosterone is not normally injected or at least not when i was in and around such nonsense. furthermore i've never known the "e" to be administered to cyclists.

i don't know anything about the science but i can tell you that a testosterone patch is generally seen as little more than cortisone shot or even a massage. its something you get after a hard day when you're probably going to have to do it all again the next day.

obtuse

[Grant McLean]

i don't know anything about the science but i can tell you that a testosterone patch is generally seen as little more than cortisone shot or even a massage. its something you get after a hard day when you're probably going to have to do it all again the next day.

obtuse

I usually agree with you, but I havn't read everything posted, so Floyd did it?

P.S. i knew Clinton got blown the second he went on TV,
and OJ isn't that good an actor.

g

[obtuse]

I usually agree with you, but I havn't read everything posted, so Floyd did it?

P.S. i knew Clinton got blown the second he went on TV,
and OJ isn't that good an actor.

g


ahmm...could you repeat the question? here's the deal. did he? probably; but a 4:1 ratio is leaving anyone feeling pretty freaking awesome and it's odd that he'd have levels elevated above that. something isn't right and floyd will be exonerated because in these types of cases they always are.

i know it's hippocritical to say it; but someone getting stripped of a tdf victory because of a stupid testosterone patch when these guys are all injecting epo and growth hormone seems pathetic.

obtuse

[GoJavs]

Spin doctoring at its finest. Check out what Landis' doctor had to say about testosterone use:

QUOTE
Regardless, Landis' physician, Dr. Brent Kay, said that testosterone would have done nothing to help Landis win the race.

"Testosterone is a body-building steroid that that builds mass over long-term use of weeks, months or even years," Kay said. "It's crazy to think that a Tour de France professional cyclist would be using testosterone, particularly in the middle of a race. It's a joke."
UNQUOTE

So, why would anybody use it? Jeez. Is the American public gullible enough just to believe the athlete's doctor?

Here's another good one. Landis talks about the test:

QUOTE
It's not a positive test in the same criteria of finding something" introduced from outside the body, Landis said. "What this test shows is an abnormal ratio of two naturally occurring substances."
UNQUOTE

Hey, Floyd, aren't those two substances also available synthetically?


Sad state of affairs. :confused:

[GoJavs]

Obtuse - if Landis loses the TDF over the patch its because Phonak appears to have been very very sloppy with their programs. The AP already picked-up an article about Phonak's history of doping problems....But, you're right, he'll get off.

[obtuse]

Spin doctoring at its finest. Check out what Landis' doctor had to say about testosterone use:

QUOTE
Regardless, Landis' physician, Dr. Brent Kay, said that testosterone would have done nothing to help Landis win the race.

"Testosterone is a body-building steroid that that builds mass over long-term use of weeks, months or even years," Kay said. "It's crazy to think that a Tour de France professional cyclist would be using testosterone, particularly in the middle of a race. It's a joke."
UNQUOTE

So, why would anybody use it? Jeez. Is the American public gullible enough just to believe the athlete's doctor?

Here's another good one. Landis talks about the test:

QUOTE
It's not a positive test in the same criteria of finding something" introduced from outside the body, Landis said. "What this test shows is an abnormal ratio of two naturally occurring substances."
UNQUOTE

Hey, Floyd, aren't those two substances also available synthetically?


Sad state of affairs. :confused:


dr. brent kay is either a liar or a doctor in the fine tradition of dr. j, dr. dre, dr. octagon and dr. doolittle.

i hope phonak has some better doctors; although mixing up tyler's blood with santi's and their fine ability to monitor oscar camenzind and santi botero suggest otherwise.

obtuse

[GoJavs]

How can Phonak be so bad when they employ Jim Ochowitz, who's an officer at USA Cycling, who's also a financial consultant at Thom Weisel's firm - the owner of DISCO? :rolleyes:

At what point does Ochowitz association with Phonak start to hurt him?

[Vanilla Gorilla]

DO you really think they mixed up tylers blood? It would make sense.

[J.Greene]

DO you really think they mixed up tylers blood? It would make sense.

I think they used his wife's blood. I belived him when he said he's never put his wife in danger. Her blood would solve that problem.

JG

[Avispa]

It seems as if Lance and/or the Lance people are at the wheel now, atmo.

Man,

The whole show was going great until Larry had to put LA on the phone!

Was LA drunk or something? He surely sounded like it.... Or may be he is so damned arrogant. The conspiracy theory really bothered the hell out me.

The guy said on ESPN:

"I'm not going to speculate; you can get Greg LeMond to go on the air and speculate. I'm not going to do that. ... I'm not going south like Greg does. I believe in the sport, I'm a fan of it and I love it.

Yet on Larry King he starts blabbing about this and that.... I think LA is beginning to sound more and more like his bud, W.

[malcolm]

I know very little about doping in pro cycling only that I've been a fan for a long time and suspect like all pro and uber competitive amature athletes they use whatever they can get away with. I have personally used anabolic steroids all be it many years ago (late '70s early '80s) including testosterone and durabolin and deca-durabolin all injectable as well as oral dianabol, winstrol and anavar and I've never been able to tell any difference in the first several days. Of course we were power lifting not riding bikes up mountains but I still can't imagine what an injcetion of anabolics would accomplish over less than 24 hours. And by the way I'm in no way supportive of there use but I'm here to tell you they work.

[Avispa]

I just read this somewhat unrealted story:

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/Issues/2006-07-27/news/feature_1.html

Pretty good, I say!

[Marcusaurelius]

Lance has been pitching his conspiracy theory in the media for weeks (or months) now and obviously no-one in the US media has called him out on it.

If you search google/yahoo, you'll hear his statements about how the lab, L'Equipe, The French Ministry of Sport and the organizers of the Tour all conspired to try to take him down.

Conspiracy Theory - I remember that movie. Not a good one.

I remember the movie and it was a good one. I have listened to several of Lance interviews and I don't recall any conspiracy theory. If it's the same lab that leaked the results from before then there are questions about it.

[Ray]

Call me a sap. I believe him.

g
You're a sap. I don't have a problem with what these guys do and I hope he gets off on a technicality. But that's what it'll be. Listen to his freakin' language, 'I am not involved in any doping program', Floyd, have you ever doped?, 'I'm going to say no'. Scuse me, but give me a break. This is prime Clintonian language and Clinton was waaaaaaay better at the delivery (I liked Clinton, btw, and didn't care what he was getting under the desk or elsewhere).

I don't care that these guys dope, Floyd did an amazing ride regardless, and he should keep his TdF title. But I don't believe him as far as I can throw him.

-Ray

[GoJavs]

I remember the movie and it was a good one. I have listened to several of Lance interviews and I don't recall any conspiracy theory. If it's the same lab that leaked the results from before then there are questions about it.

Here's a Lance statement recently:

QUOTE
"Although I am not surprised by the report’s findings, I am pleased that they confirm what I have been saying since this witch-hunt began: Mr. Pound, WADA, the French laboratory, the French Ministry of Sport, L’Equipe, and the Tour de France organizers (ASO) have been out to discredit and target me without any basis and falsely accused me of taking performance enhancing drugs in 1999. Today’s comprehensive report makes it clear that there is no truth to that accusation.

"The report confirms my innocence, but also finds that Mr. Pound along with the French lab and the French ministry have ignored the rules and broken the law. They have also refused to cooperate with the investigation in an effort to conceal the full scope of their wrongdoing"
UNQUOTE

If you really believe that there's an anti-American lab out there faking drug results, then I feel sorry for you, buddy. :cool:

BTW - it was a terrible movie. The box office results were very poor for a movie featuring Gibson and Roberts. Gibson's acting is very annoying in it too. :argue:

[catulle]

Man,

Yet on Larry King he starts blabbing about this and that.... I think LA is beginning to sound more and more like his butt, W.

Word.

[Serpico]

.
carbon isotope test

this will prove whether it is synthetic or naturally occurring
.
.
I don't think Landis did very well, but he's not a politician, and I'm sure the satellite delay had something to do with it.

After hearing Armstrong call in, Justin's 'Lance Corleone' scenario (minus the part where Lance intervenes with the 'testing mafia' on behalf of Floyd) seems a lot more likely.

Phonak sacks Landis and he goes to ride for Discovery, where the doctors are much better--I can see it. No way that B Sample is coming back negative, no way.

Larry King's prep must've consisted of about 5 minutes--at one point calling Landis a "race driver" etc etc.

[e-RICHIE]

After hearing Armstrong call in, Justin's 'Lance Corleone' scenario (minus the part where Lance intervenes with the 'testing mafia' on behalf of Floyd) seems a lot more likely.
bump

[Big Dan]

Did they mention Tugboat?

:bike:

They are on cruise control now. I can't drive 55 anyways.........

[catulle]

I just read this somewhat unrealted story:

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/Issues/2006-07-27/news/feature_1.html

Pretty good, I say!

What a truly sad story. This is probably old news for many of you, but it has left me very sad. Kamikaze warriors.

[Avispa]

What a truly sad story. This is probably old news for many of you, but it has left me very sad. Kamikaze warriors.

And the sadest part of it is that we only hear Matt's and Dave's story... There are so many US and European kids that have to do this!

I saw things like these happening in Spain when I was there, even though Matt doesn't talk about Spain much... The Spaniards were better at hiding the stuff. Then and until recetly.... ;)

[Rover-Rich]

I wonder why the media hasn't picked up on the fact that Floyds Testosterone level as LOW and his epitestosterone level was very low . It seems to me that if you are administering testosterone to enhance performance that your levels would be high and the ratio of T/Epi-T would therefore be skewed. Also no-one seems to mention the testosterone suppessing effect that corticosteroids have. Remeber Floyd was getting these for his hip.

Ok maybe I'm naive too, but I believe Floyd :)

[Ahneida Ride]

I know very little about doping in pro cycling only that I've been a fan for a long time and suspect like all pro and uber competitive amature athletes they use whatever they can get away with. I have personally used anabolic steroids all be it many years ago (late '70s early '80s) including testosterone and durabolin and deca-durabolin all injectable as well as oral dianabol, winstrol and anavar and I've never been able to tell any difference in the first several days. Of course we were power lifting not riding bikes up mountains but I still can't imagine what an injcetion of anabolics would accomplish over less than 24 hours. And by the way I'm in no way supportive of there use but I'm here to tell you they work.

Yea they do work.

at the Gym I used to work out at, the strongest non juicers could bench
in the low 300. We had a national champ juice free champ who could bench
in the low 400's.

The juiced guys could bench 500+ .

[Big Dan]

Nice explanation...............LA influence?



But Landis saved his most aggressive tone for the defense of his title as Tour de France champion.

"I was the strongest guy. I deserved to win, and I'm proud of it," he said.

[scooter]

In a 27 July 2006 article in the New York Times by Juliet Macur, Donald Catlin, of the Olympic drug testing laboratory at U.C.L.A, talks about the testing for testosterone. "Testosterone, an anabolic steroid, is used for strength and endurance, and also for quicker recovery. Its use raises a rider’s ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone."

The doping analysis is a two-pronged and labor-intensive test. The first part, to see if there is a high t/e ratio, can take anywhere from 8 to 12 hours, he said. The second part, to see whether that high ratio comes naturally or from an external source, is also lengthy.

“This is not a slam-dunk case,” he said of Landis’s case. The article goes on to say that the test is tedious, but if done properly won’t repeat a positive if Test A was a botched analysis.

Catlin also said that if Landis had a naturally high level of testosterone, someone would already know it or someone would be “running around finding the past results and plotting them on graph paper” to prove his innocence.

“These data are saved and someone can look them up,” he said.

A newer article on 28 July (Testing Benefits and Levels of Testosterone Is Difficult) http:/www.nytimes.com/2006/07/28/sports/othersports/28doping.html?ref=othersports disputes the notion that testosterone improves endurance, based on clinical trials conducted by Dr. Shalender Bhasin, a leading testosterone researcher at Boston U Med Center.

[Kevan]

his hip hurt.

What a pain he's going through now. I'd like to think he's innocent, but in context of professional sport and squeezing personal performance out from every aspect of their lives, I guess I'd be a sap too.

[palincss]

a testosterone patch does make you feel like a million bucks and doesn't take long to work. hormones are funny things and i have no idea if its receptors telling the brain stuff before the ish actually takes effect or what...but its common protocol (or at least it was in the early to mid nineties; ) to treat a bad day with testosterone.

obtuse

And what would that do to one's T/E ratio? Drive up T? Lower E? Both?

[scooter]

Based on the July 28th NY Times article, men ordinarily produce one molecule of epitestosterone for every molecule of testosterone. If you inject testosterone or apply a transdermal patch, you increase your testosterone but not your epitestosterone. So instread of 1/1 ratio, you increase your ratio. WADA says that a ratio of more than six to one is evidence of testosterone abuse. I think they used a ratio of four to one for the TDF.

[Larry]

Since Floyd took the overall lead after the final time trial, would it not be correct to think that another drug test was given after his 3rd place finish in the TT?
How about all of the other tests he took in the course of the race?
Also, how about another test after the ride into Paris??

......Everyone is "pissed" about all of this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:

[GoJavs]

Sure, if Floyd's contention that he is gifted with a superior natural level of testosterone is true, then all test would reflect that.....Yet, only one does. The one administered after his INCREDIBLE ride, the morning after his big bonk. :)

[e-RICHIE]

Sure, if Floyd's contention that he is gifted with a superior natural level of testosterone is true, then all test would reflect that.....Yet, only one does. The one administered after his INCREDIBLE ride, the morning after his big bonk. :)


ya see - that's the part i do not get nor understand
the press' characterization of. the guy made it to
less than 11km to the finish while in the lead group.
rasmus was clearly gone. when floyd dropped, he
rode in at his own pace and lost only minutes to his
key gc rivals. yes - it wasn't pretty, but folks write
about it as if he came in last and on crutches. that
stage was not as bad as it's talked about. it did not
help that he was dropped, but it was no death march
or close to it.

[GoJavs]

Sure. It could have been a lot worse. There were plenty of other supposed contenders that lost 10,15,20 minutes on single stages. That being said, if you were trying to find a reason why he would fail that test and no other, I'd think you'd have to look at his performances as indicators, even if a patch may not have made such a huge difference......

[bostondrunk]

Word.

Mmm.....me like brownies!