OT: New cars and their increasing technology

[jimbolina]

Over these last few years I've been pondering the ever increasing sophistication of cars and their associated technology and getting more concerned about the inevitable maintenance and real-world dependability of them.

I have a handful of older vehicles, ranging from a 1986 Jeep Comanche truck to a 2000 Jeep Wrangler, among others. They are still running great, fortunately. These vehicles in particular are very, very easy to work on and take care of myself, pretty inexpensively. For example, when something goes wrong I can usually quickly diagnose the matter, track down the part(s) and replace them myself with my own hand tools, using only the factory owner's manual, a respective forum inquiry, or a tailored YouTube video. Some of the newer cars my friends have are getting to where you end up replacing an entire system, rather than that individual component that went wrong. More often then not, that requires a dealer visit.

Granted, my examples are fairly old and don't have these newer capabilities, but when you consider the newer vehicles and all the stuff they install on them anymore, will it quickly get to the point where only dealers (not little privately owned shops that lack the proper diagnostics, etc) can service them and when you do, it will indeed cost a fortune?

They are already getting terrifically priced as it is. Think of self-parking, the automated safety braking and eventually driverless cars. Will it become practically bankrupting to own and operate these vehicles (and more importantly, maintain) or at least unrealistic to have more than one?

Just thinking...

[jlwdm]

I am a believer that modern cars are going to have all kinds of problems with all of the electronic systems. This is also true of smaller items like washers and dryers. I am afraid to keep cars with lots of electronics past a warranty or extended warranty period.

In Seattle my wife has had a 1986 Mercedes C Series that she purchased new. I gave her a Tesla for her birthday in 2014. After eleven months she had only driven the Tesla around 300 miles. She is not great with all of the touch screen controls. She keeps saying she will get rid of the Mercedes but it has not happened yet. She likes the simplicity of the older car.

Jeff

[jlyon]

Once driverless cars are a widely accepted thing why would anyone want own a car?

Just have one come get you when needed.
Uber is much cheaper than cabs already and once the drivers are taken out of the equation the per mile cost will get even lower so that nobody will want to deal with the all the annual costs of keeping a car for themselves.

Maybe new homes will be built without garages saving more money on the home front.

[Ralph]

I feel same way. Cars are getting so expensive....it takes almost two owners to pay for it. First owner leases it while it's under warranty.....then second owner buys it with an extended warranty. Maybe even a third owner gets in picture. The basics of a new vehicle last a lot longer than old cars. 150,000-200,000 is routine for engine, trans, etc. it's the small stuff and electronics that cause problems. You don't fix them when electronics go bad.....you just buy a new "module". Priced out an ABS module complete lately?

And then there is the distraction of those electronics. Wife drives a Limited Ford Edge. all the gadgets.....it will read a text message to you. I find all that stuff distracting from driving. Not safe.

[jimbolina]

Yeah, it really is starting to get outta hand. You're correct, cars do last considerably longer than the old days but the cost of ownership gets you on the other side. Think the module replacement business you reference which is what will become the new, cost-prohibitive, maintenance bummer.

Plus, like I touched on earlier, it can be satisfying to work on your own vehicle, if they are relatively easy to do so. These newer cars will be intimidating at best. Open a hood and everything is covered up or squished together so tightly you need to have either special, single-use tools to do the job, or tear apart entire assemblies, just to get to the part you want.

My Jeeps couldn't be easier, especially changing the oil, filter and plugs! Just reach in and go. My neighbor's brand new truck is actually quite amazing. You can't seem to find anything readily and when you do it is virtually impossible to access! Gads!

[tv_vt]

A point of reference: bought a new car recently; the headlights on regular beam were shooting a little low. Asked my local car shop if they could adjust them and they said no, that the adjustment is done via computer in the car now, that they didn't have the software to do it, had to take to a VW dealer and have the car hooked up - so they could adjust the headlights using some software.

Whatever happened to the couple of adjusting screws for aiming headlights??

[sg8357]

Once driverless cars are a widely accepted thing why would anyone want own a car?

The thought of a 18 year old beater driverless car is scarier than having
to haunt scrap yards to keep an old dumb car running.
Ancient Robot semi trucks operated by barely profitable operators,
now there is a happy thought.
Yes old Betsy is a little blind on the right and lidar isn't was it once was,
but she can still make runs if we minimize right turns and stick to daylight.

People in future passenger cars will feel like today's bicyclists riding
in traffic, scared of the big steel boxes.

[nesteel]

We just bought a 2017 Elantra. They pack alot of technology into a $17,200 car. 100,000 mile extended warranty. Wife commutes a little over 100 miles a day. Bought it June and the car already has 18,000 on it. We were no longer comfortable with here driving a 10 year old car, and the used market is just terrible, with a decent used car costing over what I feel is reasonable. Expensive? Not really, IMHO. Beats worrying about her on the highway in a older car. I fix whatever breaks on our other three vehicles. I do not enjoy it as much as I used to in my younger days. I keep one project car around I can work on when I feel like it. I DO NOT touch the new car, and I wont for the first 4 years. After that, sure. As for parts costs, I almost exclusively use used or reclaimed parts for the hard parts. As many maintenance items as possible are bought in advance from places such as Rock Auto. Way cheaper.

[Schmed]

If this car were in the showrooms now, I'd buy one. Manual transmission, manual HVAC, manual lights, traction control is via right foot, and a dipstick (I now own 3 cars without a dipstick!!! ***?).

https://s3.amazonaws.com/bimmer/images/big/357/113BCult1.jpg?1393046193

[Mikej]

I highly doubt new cars will have the problems you guys are worried about. In fact, we have been relying on almost ancient technology (in tech terms) to run every car on the road since electronic fuel injection took over in the 80's. seriously think about it - how many vehicles on the road running with a CPU-? Like 40 million in the USA alone? Yeah I get there are tons of electronics on cars, heck, we have a car that steers brakes beeps when somebody in front drives off, beeps and flashes when something is in your blind spot gives directions - emails me an appt to change my oil etc. the electronic components are incredibly reliable- in fact, those Jeeps the op mentioned have all the same computers already - tranny gears are programmed to shift at rpms electronically- it's fine.

[veloduffer]

There are benefits to the new technology. Cars, like my Ford Explorer, performs periodic self diagnostics, and the safety technology has dramatically reduced deaths.i think last year was the first time in auto history that some models registered no deaths for the year.

A lot of cars have fly-by-wire controls instead of mechanical like accelerators. But this technology has been around for quite a while. Probably trickle down technology from the military- jets are largely unflyable without electronic assistance.

The downside is that repairs are largely beyond shade tree mechanics


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[jimbolina]

Boy, I hate these 'no maintenance' vehicles that are slowly coming out. That no dipstick deal is disturbing and the so-called, no plug replacement for 100,000 miles is really troubling.

I wonder if indeed you waited until that lengthy milestone that you wouldn't be able to change the plugs because they've seized in the aluminum head!

[jlwdm]

I highly doubt new cars will have the problems you guys are worried about...

...

I see the problems. Some just little things like keyless entry no longer working - twice for me. I had a car with warnings going off that was at the dealer for all but 5 days in 3 months. They could not figure out the problem and would give it back to me and I would take it back to them the next day.

Jeff

[GScot]

Or you could say that all of the on board diagnostic systems and feedback in the system is a help to the mechanic. With VW group and BMW you can buy an interface for a couple hundred dollars that lets you know everything going on in the car, reprogram features, and register new modules in the event of replacement. I started out setting points and rejetting carburetors, now I open my laptop to know exactly the condition of every injector and coil module.

Not saying it is always friendly but on many cars if you have the time and desire to deal with repairs you can.

[cadence90]

Over these last few years I've been pondering the ever increasing sophistication of cars and their associated technology and getting more concerned about the inevitable maintenance and real-world dependability of them.

Just thinking...
Absolutely true. 1999 Volvo V70 here. Great car, but:
1) That year/model is a real bitch to get smogged in CA; a nightmare every time.
2) I took it to get smogged last week; the guy said, "I'm not even going to test it. Your "check engine" light is on and it will certainly fail." So I took it to my mechanic. "Yes, it will definitely fail. Let me check it out." The next day, the dreaded phone call: "The oxygen sensor chip is fried. We have to replace it; it is a Volvo-only part." OK, if I have to I have to. Next day: basic tune-up, new battery, a few other minor maintenance repairs, the new o s chip, labor...total = $998. Of that, the d$mn$d chip alone cost over $500! :eek:

And now, in order to "reset the system before doing the smog check"...I have to drive it +/- 200 useless miles this week.... "sophisticated, high-tech, low maintenance technology" my *ss.

The dual Stromberg carbs sucked, but other than that I miss my old "low-tech" 122S wagon.

[Schmed]

I see the problems. Some just little things like keyless entry no longer working - twice for me. I had a car with warnings going off that was at the dealer for all but 5 days in 3 months. They could not figure out the problem and would give it back to me and I would take it back to them the next day.

Jeff

No kidding.

Replacement key for my '90s era BMW: $11.
Replacement key for my MBenz Sprinter: $200 to $400

[Ti Designs]

I highly doubt new cars will have the problems you guys are worried about. In fact, we have been relying on almost ancient technology (in tech terms) to run every car on the road since electronic fuel injection took over in the 80's. seriously think about it - how many vehicles on the road running with a CPU-?

Good point, but the ECU in most cars along with fuel injectors isn't much more complex than a carburetor with it's jets and floats. They also use very little data coming back from the engine to work - my Honda has 7 sensors it needs to run. Few things on a car that change from model year to model year are designed with that kind of durability

What I'm more worried about is the shortening of generations - we're not just talking cars here. Nuovo Record was around from '68 to '82, how long was 7900 around??? These days we just accept that things have a shorter life span, we're trying to keep up with everybody else and that's just the cost of living. I don't get that at all, perhaps that's why I'm still riding on 9-speed and driving a car built in 1991.

[type2sam]

No kidding.

Replacement key for my '90s era BMW: $11.
Replacement key for my MBenz Sprinter: $200 to $400

Funny story. I managed to somehow lose the programmable key for my early 2000's 5-series. I go to the dealership to get a new one and the guy in front of me in line at the parts counter is asking for the very same thing, but for the next generation 5-series.

$400 for him, $189 for me.

[HenryA]

A lot of what is written here is brought about by regulatory action. Many of the devices/systems installed in cars as mentioned here would not exist if the manufacturers were not forced to comply with yet another regulation.

Whether its for good or bad, that's a large part of the complication of the otherwise relatively simple machines we drive.

But newer cars sure are reliable and generally trouble free. In daily use they are a vast, vast improvement over the cars of the 60s or 70s.

[cmg]

"Once driverless cars are a widely accepted thing why would anyone want own a car?" you may not own the car but you'll own the cost for travel and it won't be any cheaper than the monthly car payment except its forever. when autonomous cars are available what will they sell you? miles per month plans like a phone service with limits so overages can be charged. makes sense that a start up like Tesla shakes up the status quo they have nothing invested in the status quo. i'm not playing, going to keep the hondas until i've used up all the spares from the junk yard. engine fails, replace and go on.

[Fatty]

I feel same way. Cars are getting so expensive....it takes almost two owners to pay for it. First owner leases it while it's under warranty.....then second owner buys it with an extended warranty. Maybe even a third owner gets in picture. The basics of a new vehicle last a lot longer than old cars. 150,000-200,000 is routine for engine, trans, etc. it's the small stuff and electronics that cause problems. You don't fix them when electronics go bad.....you just buy a new "module". Priced out an ABS module complete lately?

And then there is the distraction of those electronics. Wife drives a Limited Ford Edge. all the gadgets.....it will read a text message to you. I find all that stuff distracting from driving. Not safe.

Safer than picking up the phone and reading the message.

[PacNW2Ford]

A point of reference: bought a new car recently; the headlights on regular beam were shooting a little low. Asked my local car shop if they could adjust them and they said no, that the adjustment is done via computer in the car now, that they didn't have the software to do it, had to take to a VW dealer and have the car hooked up - so they could adjust the headlights using some software.

Whatever happened to the couple of adjusting screws for aiming headlights??

This is true, because many cars have to legally have auto leveling headlamps. But most Volkswagens have easily accessible adjusting screws to manually make small adjustments, Google your model, then use your 6mm hex key, just don't blind me when I meet you on the road.

[Zoodles]

http://i.imgur.com/91sn32Q.jpg


I no longer have any interest in cars or mc's but it was clear when I left mc racing in 2007 that the future was electronic and what was new territory for me was a play ground for the younger crowd.

As far as keeping the old honda to avoid the march towards autonomous vehicles, I'm afraid the insurance companies will make that un-affordable for all but the 0.1%.

[witcombusa]

If this car were in the showrooms now, I'd buy one. Manual transmission, manual HVAC, manual lights, traction control is via right foot, and a dipstick (I now own 3 cars without a dipstick!!! ***?).

https://s3.amazonaws.com/bimmer/images/big/357/113BCult1.jpg?1393046193

+100

and in the driveway...

[Peter P.]

Once driverless cars are a widely accepted thing why would anyone want own a car?

Just have one come get you when needed.
Uber is much cheaper than cabs already and once the drivers are taken out of the equation the per mile cost will get even lower so that nobody will want to deal with the all the annual costs of keeping a car for themselves.


Don't be so confident about this.

With fewer cars being sold due to the cost of self-driving vehicles and other reasons, manufacturers (because the MANUFACTURERS will own the cars) will have to charge more for those rides so they can maintain their profits. Also, we will have no control over those prices as we'll be held captive by the manufacturers because we'll NEED those rides.

The self-driving future is fraught with perils you haven't envisioned yet.

Back to the original post: All that needless technology jacks up car prices far beyond making them affordable. I could use the money saved avoiding the bells and whistles, by investing it for my retirement-or bike parts. ;-)

[Ralph]

The auto companies are also smart RE the buying habits of their customers. They know we are programed to thinking that the hi end loaded car models are somehow better than the base models.....and for sure they are more luxurious.

If you will consider the lower or more base model of the popular priced vehicles.....which are pretty much loaded with standard features unheard of a few years ago.....one can still purchase a nice reliable reasonably priced vehicle that should have a long life....and less stuff to go wrong.

I was recently looking at Ford F 150's. Naturally the loaded all the bells and whistle model is the one my emotions drove me toward......but if I took control of my own buying emotions.....it is possible to purchase a model and version which met all my requirements for a much more modest amount. Like we don't need luxury in a truck (leather, electric everything, etc) ? Chrome packages, large fancy wheels, Or a Nav system (wife and I both have smart phones plus a portable Garmin, $69, with free map updates)? Or even carpet floors? Just need the options that outfit the ruck for the use I had intended (road traveling with a cap on back). Don't need crew cab. Base 3.5 non turbo or 2.7 turbo more than adequate for my needs. Don't need 4X4 (locking rear dif adequate). Do want a good back up camera, comfortable seats, etc.

[oldpotatoe]

Boy, I hate these 'no maintenance' vehicles that are slowly coming out. That no dipstick deal is disturbing and the so-called, no plug replacement for 100,000 miles is really troubling.

I wonder if indeed you waited until that lengthy milestone that you wouldn't be able to change the plugs because they've seized in the aluminum head!

Because working on your car is some sort of hobby? If you have one of these with 100,000 plug replace, just replace them every 30k or so..or every 10k, like I did with my 1987 VW Bus. Used to work on all my cars. From 1987 VW, 1967 Squareback, First gen Honda CVCC(it had a carburator and everyday distributor, with points!!), 1983 Toyota Tercel.

Then got a 2000 New Beetle and thankfully, no more car work. Didn't really like it anyway.

[cadence90]

Because working on your car is some sort of hobby? If you have one of these with 100,000 plug replace, just replace them every 30k or so..or every 10k, like I did with my 1987 VW Bus. Used to work on all my cars. From 1987 VW, 1967 Squareback, First gen Honda CVCC(it had a carburator and everyday distributor, with points!!), 1983 Toyota Tercel.

Then got a 2000 New Beetle and thankfully, no more car work. Didn't really like it anyway.
You do know what the car guys on the car forums are saying about you right now, don't you?

Begins with a "n"...
Ends with a "y"...
Has an "anc" in the middle....

:D

[peanutgallery]

One of the vehicles floating around in my fleet is a 2015 Jeep Patriot with roll down windows, no remote lock and the most complex component is the auto dimming mirror. My son was befuddled by the door crank for the window. Got it for like nothing and I actually kinda like it. 2 inch receiver and mud mats and I go everywhere with it quite comfortably

You can reach everything under the hood, etc. Nothing too complex and everything is crazy simple. Not the most polished interior but more than serviceable and it drives great. I think the big issue is that people now have the craziest expectations when it comes to the creature comforts of a vehicle, that in turn drives the price into the stratosphere - along with many electrical and mechanical woes. God forbid if your vehicle isn't a rolling lazy boy festooned with widgets and comforts far beyond safety that you really don't need. You'll get bullied by your peers:) Collectively, we've been great consumers

If one is inclined, peruse a large Jeep dealers inventory, it's crazy what you could purchase a vehicle without

[soulspinner]

Work at a Volvo store. New vehicle electronics are sometimes a nightmare. Everytime they come in they need an update downloaded. The first years are the worst as problems show up due to design / implementation. I have seen all the wiring out of a new car and its mind boggling. Aint gonna get better. I keep hoping to win Mega Lotto so I can buy a Singer Porsche (mechanical primarily), and a hundred more bikes :rolleyes:

[oldpotatoe]

You do know what the car guys on the car forums are saying about you right now, don't you?

Begins with a "n"...
Ends with a "y"...
Has an "anc" in the middle....

:D

ANother POTD!!!

Yup, I know, don't like working on my own bike either. :banana:

[Mr. Squirrel]

electronics, mmm more soy based wiring. nuk nuk nuk!

mr. squirrel

[ultraman6970]

What the Op is saying is true....thats the main reason (besides being broke) why i have not swapped my 2000 voyager, is falling appart but that sucker is piece of cake to get it fix compared with new cars. Probably the 2 hardest things to do in that car are the water pump and the rear sparkplugs.

Put a extra tranny cooler in front of the radiator plus good tranny oil and that transmission will last forever. Put amsoil oil and run twice a year oil changes, a twice larger oil filter and thats all the maintanance it will need.

NO dip stick cars, bad idea, french cars had been using too much electronics easy 10 or 15 years earlier than any other manufacturer and they still have bad reputation of really fragile cars, thats why they did not work in the US, u do the maintanance when it is due or the car will go down hill quite quick. French cars are awesomely nice designed outside. Remember some small shark like citroens... the radio was not in the dash but under the hand brake :D