Whole foods/plant based diet - fork over knives discussion

[AngryScientist]

Has anyone seen this documentary?

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51c9mECmAML.jpg

watched it last night.

curious if anyone has an opinion on the content and message?

the basic idea is that an animal based protein "western" diet promotes cancer growth and heart disease, and a whole food/plant based diet significantly reduces those two risks.

[christian]

I don't think I need a documentary to tell me that. Falls into Michael Pollan's trope, "Eat food. Mostly plants. Not too much."

[jtakeda]

Has anyone seen this documentary?

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51c9mECmAML.jpg

watched it last night.

curious if anyone has an opinion on the content and message?

the basic idea is that an animal based protein "western" diet promotes cancer growth and heart disease, and a whole food/plant based diet significantly reduces those two risks.

I think it would be hard to argue against that given the environmental impact the meat industry has.

That being said, there are more sustainable ways to buy/eat meat. Also the amount of meat in the western diet is far more protein and fat than we need.

I'll have to check out the movie.

Ps. I eat meat

[stephenmarklay]

I have been doing this for about a year. Just a week ago I added back sardines once to twice a week mostly to cover my bases for nutrients. I guess its like a Dr. Fuhrman nutritarian type diet.

I don’t really care about any camps hype and I still eat too much in general. But I feel I am doing OK.

[Geeheeb]

If you want to dive a little bit deeper into evidence-based diet, check out Dr. Michael Greger's site http://nutritionfacts.org

[Lovetoclimb]

The more mainstream this becomes the better IMO. And that provides me an opportunity to shamelessly plug my wife's new cookbook she co-wrote with a local plant based Ultra-runner and long time vegan athlete, Matt Frazier aka The No Meat Athlete.

http://theexperimentpublishing.com/catalogs/spring-2017/no-meat-athlete-cookbook/

As someone who moved towards veganism while rowing and long distance running in college I found the biggest obstacle is learning how to cook for yourself beyond basic things. 10 years on an I am still heavily dependent on someone else to make my meals, though recipe testing for this book taught me quite a bit!

[Mzilliox]

No we are talking, this is my life's passion, food and how folks eat it. its why I farm, its the only way to ensure good food.

its an ok film and premise, but it misses something and its heavy with religion. not eating meat is not good. we are made to eat both meat and vegetables. the problem is the stuff we grow as chickens and cows is not very natural, lots of hormones and growth regulators, not to mention gross drugs. and you eat that.

Counting calories is silly, just eat better calories. considering the nutrition and not the calories is a much better way to eat.

I don't know when or why humans stopped knowing what and how to eat. But most folks i know are damn clueless. Ill tell you this now, any diet fad is not healthy, and any product that has the words "light" or "diet" is poison. its literally substance free filler, not food.

Pollan is more accurate, eat food, mostly fruits and veg. its really that simple. if its in a package its most likely not proper food. if it saves a long time, its not proper food, and if its made in a large factory, its most likely not proper food.

all that other crap they put in food substitutes is what is giving us cancer and making us fat. its not food, so our bodies don't know what to do with it. its not supposed to be there, we aren't supposed to eat some of these things.

and don't get me started on iodized table salt. if you are eating this at home, toss it now, or use it to de ice something, but please don't actually eat that crap. oh, and toss out your margarine, the fat in butter isn't bad for you.

i eat meat, not much, and i have to be able to kill some of it if i continue to eat it. its only fair. the ending of a life should not be so cheap and absent from your diet. the brevity of this alone should cause a human to eat less meat.

I am not a nutritionist (thankfully) so if thats who you listen to for food advice, good luck. But i do pay attention, and have my whole life. paying attention is worth a lot more than reading when it comes to things we do naturally.

[AngryScientist]

MZ - good stuff.

I would love to visit your farm sometime when i am out your way.

[Geeheeb]

its an ok film and premise, but it misses something and its heavy with religion.

this film literally studies the work of two physicians, and the china study. not the bible.

[AngryScientist]

this film literally studies the work of two physicians, and the china study. not the bible.

agree, i did not notice any religious vibes in this one.

[Chris]

I work at a heart hospital. One of our surgeons gives a copy to all of his patients and we promote a primarily plant based diet. Lots of wisdom in there.

As for some other statements made here such as implying that paying attention (whatever that means), compared to actually making reasoned decisions based on science, smacks of some of the same fundamentalist thinking that seems to permeate these discussions, often seen in the context of the red herring organic vs non-organic debate. For example, the recommendation to eat a bunch of fruit, isn't the healthiest idea either. Granted, in moderation fruits are a healthy part of one's diet, but if you take it to extremes, you are simply overloading your body with sugar. Whole foods eaten in moderation, with an eye toward calories in/calories out, seems to be a reasonable approach within the understanding of some pretty solid science.

Having, said all that, there is a big difference between science and governmental guidelines. We are just starting to understand how dietary cholesterol is not the demon we thought it was. And there is another good documentary on Netflix called Fed Up which goes into how the government recommendations for diet are influenced by the food industry.

[shepxputnam]

Always found this topic interesting. I've been vegan for almost a decade and animal welfare is important to me as a moral and health issue.

I have only heard about this, but I definitely want to check it out. I would also recommend Cowspiracy if you want some more information about the impact factory farming has on our environment....that is of course if you believe in that type of thing. ;)

[Nooch]

Always found this topic interesting. I've been vegan for almost a decade and animal welfare is important to me as a moral and health issue.

I have only heard about this, but I definitely want to check it out. I would also recommend Cowspiracy if you want some more information about the impact factory farming has on our environment....that is of course if you believe in that type of thing. ;)

My cousin is an environmentalist, gave out a 'Did you know' at our Christmas party, explaining how much more water goes into making one hamburger vs. a whole large pizza.

[8aaron8]

I've always been a proponent of, "If your grandmother wouldn't eat it neither should you." I suppose we may be talking great grandmothers now. Anyhow, I enjoyed that documentary when I first saw it many years ago, so my recollection isn't going to be fresh. I think that the message is a positive one, and I do believe in most of the guidelines it sets out. Even though it talked extensively about no meat diets, I do feel that meat consumption is part of the human diet. However, it has skyrocketed due to modern agricultural practices and business practices, the idea that sales must grow year over year. I do believe the movie referenced a 5-10% rule for animal protein consumption. Personally, I don't work out the math for every meal, but I keep my meat consumption to once maybe twice a week, so 1-2/21 meals, I suppose given the quantity that protein consumes on my plate I fall at about the 5% or less category.

With that said, I believe we can look at the diets of third world countries as well as anthropologic studies to see how an increase in fats, animal proteins, salts and sugars negatively impacts human beings. Many of the poorest nations around the world suffer from the fewest chronic diseases such as diabetes, cardiovascular problems and autoimmune disorders. If you give your body time to "adjust" to eating what the world naturally provides then you can immediately feel the negative effects of processed foods on your system. Finally, I agree that it's not the amount of calories that matter it's about the quality. The proverb, "Eat when you are hungry, drink when you are thirsty," is a seemingly common sense proposition. From my memory, I really like that this documentary did not take a stance at one far end of the spectrum where it's message would only further cement like thinkers into adhering to its message, rather it came from a position of concern and care for all life.

[goonster]

"If your grandmother wouldn't eat it neither should you."

OK, then.

Back to putting butter in everything . . . ;)

[JStonebarger]

There are some relatively healthy cultures that rely heavily on animal products -- Masai, Eskimos, etc. -- so I'm not sure animal fats/proteins are necessarily to blame for our Western culture's ridiculously unhealthy diet. On the other hand, many cultures have suffered higher rates of heart disease, diabetes, and auto-immune disorders as they have relied more and more on heavily processed foods.

By the way, Mzilliox, what's the deal with iodized salt? I haven't read much about that.

[ColonelJLloyd]

As a trained cook and someone who has killed and butchered a great number of animals (and discarded next to nothing) I understand what MZillox means when he says "pay attention", but I can't articulate it any better. I agree with a lot of what Pollan says, but I do not think there is one book or diet or methodology that is the answer for anyone. The industrialization and current state of our food supply is depressing and I tend not to think too deep about it because of that. I do "pay attention" for the sake of my family and myself, but I do not live in any way isolated nor do I preach to anyone. I have my own duality.

[d_douglas]

I don't think I need a documentary to tell me that. Falls into Michael Pollan's trope, "Eat food. Mostly plants. Not too much."

Yes, agreed. I think it is pretty obvious that a plant-based diet is the healthiest option. I eat meat (thought was a veg for about 6yrs) and am conscious to eat it ONLY when I want it, not out of habit.

We may not have the energy and power that we crave as 'athletes' if we don't eat meat, but we would be healthier if we ate veggies.

Said, as I am sitting here surfing the Paceline while eating a big pile of roasted, leftover veggies that my kids refuse to eat ;)

[p nut]

No we are talking, this is my life's passion, food and how folks eat it. its why I farm, its the only way to ensure good food.

its an ok film and premise, but it misses something and its heavy with religion. not eating meat is not good. we are made to eat both meat and vegetables. the problem is the stuff we grow as chickens and cows is not very natural, lots of hormones and growth regulators, not to mention gross drugs. and you eat that.

Counting calories is silly, just eat better calories. considering the nutrition and not the calories is a much better way to eat.

I don't know when or why humans stopped knowing what and how to eat. But most folks i know are damn clueless. Ill tell you this now, any diet fad is not healthy, and any product that has the words "light" or "diet" is poison. its literally substance free filler, not food.

Pollan is more accurate, eat food, mostly fruits and veg. its really that simple. if its in a package its most likely not proper food. if it saves a long time, its not proper food, and if its made in a large factory, its most likely not proper food.

all that other crap they put in food substitutes is what is giving us cancer and making us fat. its not food, so our bodies don't know what to do with it. its not supposed to be there, we aren't supposed to eat some of these things.

and don't get me started on iodized table salt. if you are eating this at home, toss it now, or use it to de ice something, but please don't actually eat that crap. oh, and toss out your margarine, the fat in butter isn't bad for you.

i eat meat, not much, and i have to be able to kill some of it if i continue to eat it. its only fair. the ending of a life should not be so cheap and absent from your diet. the brevity of this alone should cause a human to eat less meat.

I am not a nutritionist (thankfully) so if thats who you listen to for food advice, good luck. But i do pay attention, and have my whole life. paying attention is worth a lot more than reading when it comes to things we do naturally.

I agree with all here. I've tried strict veg diets (not dieting, just diet). Didn't work out. I eat meat, but in very modest amounts. Fish, mostly. And thankfully have great connections with people in the ("organic") livestock industry to get my meats as hormone-free as possible. Or I go on a hunt. My kids are also taught what they should eat and most importantly, respect food.

[Mikej]

I eat everything- too much fruit, red meat dairy grains gluten bit o honey- everything- donuts from the vending machines - there is more to it than science or doctors, remember when the sugar industry payed the Harvard Dr.'s to lie and say meat and eggs causes high cholesterol and arteriosclerosis? Yeah, for 47000$ in 1967 they simply flipped and biased the results and ****ed up the entire USA. Every time you read a study somebody payed for it and expects to get what they want. Sort of like "donating" 100,000$ to a politician -it's not because they are super good friends
I do agree with not eating chemicals and industrial food, but sometimes you have no choice-

[verbs4us]

At one point in my career I worked for a medical journal, writing and editing articles for a readership of primary care docs. For a series on anti-arrhythmic therapies, I convened a group of six august cardiologists for a recorded panel discussion. During a break, I pulled one of them aside and asked: Why, in the primary literature about coronary artery disease, longitudinal studies always include a disclaimed that says "these data don't apply to Jains, most 7th Day Adventists and some Buddhists"? "Because," the doc said, "they're mostly vegetarians, and most vegetarians don't get CAD. Also, they are religious and they meditate, which seems to have some protective effect." Hmmm!

[stephenmarklay]

At one point in my career I worked for a medical journal, writing and editing articles for a readership of primary care docs. For a series on anti-arrhythmic therapies, I convened a group of six august cardiologists for a recorded panel discussion. During a break, I pulled one of them aside and asked: Why, in the primary literature about coronary artery disease, longitudinal studies always include a disclaimed that says "these data don't apply to Jains, most 7th Day Adventists and some Buddhists"? "Because," the doc said, "they're mostly vegetarians, and most vegetarians don't get CAD. Also, they are religious and they meditate, which seems to have some protective effect." Hmmm!

No its really because the have statins in the water supply :)

[adamhell]

I been vegan for 3 years & never going back. I love the food I eat & I feel great. I made the decision with animals in mind, and with that as the backbone, only good things have come from it. Apparently, it's way easier on the environment. I never feel super weighed down after eating, but if I REALLY stuff myself, I recover more quickly than when I ate animal stuffs. Also, I get sick WAY less, and when I do get sick, I recover way more quickly than when I ate animal products.

I also feel better from a mental health perspective. I have always found animals fascinating and felt connected to them. I felt relieved when I made this decision because on some subconscious level, I could relax knowing I wasn't, in some indirect way, causing immense pain & grief to them.

obviously you can be unhealthy as a vegan, but you would have to try hard. technically, you could eat nothing but french fries dipped in chocolate sauce and be vegan; that is obviously unhealthy. I'm still not as healthy as I want to be. I eat somewhat processed foods regularly (ie pita chips dipped in hummus), but intermixed with tons of fruits and veggies.

OK I will stop talking about myself now. I can't recommend this enough. DM me if you want to talk more in depth about it, or need rec's!!! check out the Rich Roll podcast on itunes!!!

[Tandem Rider]

I believe that we, as a melting pot of ethnicities, cannot homogeneously adhere to one diet and be healthy because of that diet. For example, some folks are better off gluten free, I would want to shoot myself over that. I was vegetarian for about 7 years, I find I feel better if I eat a little meat now and then. Sweet, gooey desserts? I pay for that for 2-3 days though, so no bueno.

That being said, I don't understand how eating far from a food's origins can be healthy, for anyone, regardless if it's hormones, antibiotics, processing of corn, or any number of food alterations. We try to avoid anything that sounds like a chemical or that is a substitute for a natural ingredient, e.g. corn syrup or aspartame instead of sugar.

At the TR household we eat primarily organic, meat is often more of a "condiment" than anything, and certainly not every day. Maybe an 8oz steak sliced thin on a huge salad that feeds all 4 of us, or a little (1/2 lb or so) of hot Italian sausage in a pasta sauce that feeds 4 twice. Date Night is where we often "splurge" diet wise, commercial ingredients are at restaurants.

There is definitely a financial cost associated with eating this way, however, part of that can be mitigated by being very careful with the food and wasting nothing. For example, we buy organic chickens from a local farmer, 1 chicken will yield 2-3 meals + a carcass that is turned into organic chicken stock after several accumulate. This is then used to feed us several more times.

[marciero]

...
remember when the sugar industry payed the Harvard Dr.'s to lie and say meat and eggs causes high cholesterol and arteriosclerosis? Yeah, for 47000$ in 1967 they simply flipped and biased the results and ****ed up the entire USA. Every time you read a study somebody payed for it and expects to get what they want. ...

Still happening. Reported just today in fact. Peer reviewed journal article questioning sugar's connection with obesity, diabetes, etc. The article cites your 1967 example.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/19/well/eat/a-food-industry-study-tries-to-discredit-advice-about-sugar.html?_r=0

[Mzilliox]

I believe that we, as a melting pot of ethnicities, cannot homogeneously adhere to one diet and be healthy because of that diet. For example, some folks are better off gluten free, I would want to shoot myself over that. I was vegetarian for about 7 years, I find I feel better if I eat a little meat now and then. Sweet, gooey desserts? I pay for that for 2-3 days though, so no bueno.

That being said, I don't understand how eating far from a food's origins can be healthy, for anyone, regardless if it's hormones, antibiotics, processing of corn, or any number of food alterations. We try to avoid anything that sounds like a chemical or that is a substitute for a natural ingredient, e.g. corn syrup or aspartame instead of sugar.

At the TR household we eat primarily organic, meat is often more of a "condiment" than anything, and certainly not every day. Maybe an 8oz steak sliced thin on a huge salad that feeds all 4 of us, or a little (1/2 lb or so) of hot Italian sausage in a pasta sauce that feeds 4 twice. Date Night is where we often "splurge" diet wise, commercial ingredients are at restaurants.

There is definitely a financial cost associated with eating this way, however, part of that can be mitigated by being very careful with the food and wasting nothing. For example, we buy organic chickens from a local farmer, 1 chicken will yield 2-3 meals + a carcass that is turned into organic chicken stock after several accumulate. This is then used to feed us several more times.

Makes sense to me:beer:

[Mzilliox]

There are some relatively healthy cultures that rely heavily on animal products -- Masai, Eskimos, etc. -- so I'm not sure animal fats/proteins are necessarily to blame for our Western culture's ridiculously unhealthy diet. On the other hand, many cultures have suffered higher rates of heart disease, diabetes, and auto-immune disorders as they have relied more and more on heavily processed foods.

By the way, Mzilliox, what's the deal with iodized salt? I haven't read much about that.

http://worldtruth.tv/why-sea-salt-is-good-for-you-and-table-salt-is-not/

esentially the form they sell as table salt has been heavily processed with anti caking agents added. it dehydrates your cells in the form t is in. mineral salt however is healthy and good for normal bodily functions.

in moderation of course. most everything in moderation.

[jtakeda]

I'm with tandem rider.

Although we don't really eat red meat. Mostly chicken and fish.

Also just an FYI, there's no proof that eating organic is healthier for you. It is healthier for the environment and the workers who work on the farms but the vitamins are still in the food.

[verticaldoug]

I think this was posted when it first came out a few years ago but a classic NYT article on junk food and manipulating our tastes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/24/magazine/the-extraordinary-science-of-junk-food.html

On the evening of April 8, 1999, a long line of Town Cars and taxis pulled up to the Minneapolis headquarters of Pillsbury and discharged 11 men who controlled America’s largest food companies. Nestlé was in attendance, as were Kraft and Nabisco, General Mills and Procter & Gamble, Coca-Cola and Mars. Rivals any other day, the C.E.O.’s and company presidents had come together for a rare, private meeting. On the agenda was one item: the emerging obesity epidemic and how to deal with it. While the atmosphere was cordial, the men assembled were hardly friends. Their stature was defined by their skill in fighting one another for what they called “stomach share” — the amount of digestive space that any one company’s brand can grab from the competition.

James Behnke, a 55-year-old executive at Pillsbury, greeted the men as they arrived. He was anxious but also hopeful about the plan that he and a few other food-company executives had devised to engage the C.E.O.’s on America’s growing weight problem. “We were very concerned, and rightfully so, that obesity was becoming a major issue,” Behnke recalled. “People were starting to talk about sugar taxes, and there was a lot of pressure on food companies.” Getting the company chiefs in the same room to talk about anything, much less a sensitive issue like this, was a tricky business, so Behnke and his fellow organizers had scripted the meeting carefully, honing the message to its barest essentials. “C.E.O.’s in the food industry are typically not technical guys, and they’re uncomfortable going to meetings where technical people talk in technical terms about technical things,” Behnke said. “They don’t want to be embarrassed. They don’t want to make commitments. They want to maintain their aloofness and autonomy.”

A chemist by training with a doctoral degree in food science, Behnke became Pillsbury’s chief technical officer in 1979 and was instrumental in creating a long line of hit products, including microwaveable popcorn. He deeply admired Pillsbury but in recent years had grown troubled by pictures of obese children suffering from diabetes and the earliest signs of hypertension and heart disease. In the months leading up to the C.E.O. meeting, he was engaged in conversation with a group of food-science experts who were painting an increasingly grim picture of the public’s ability to cope with the industry’s formulations — from the body’s fragile controls on overeating to the hidden power of some processed foods to make people feel hungrier still. It was time, he and a handful of others felt, to warn the C.E.O.’s that their companies may have gone too far in creating and marketing products that posed the greatest health concerns.

The discussion took place in Pillsbury’s auditorium. The first speaker was a vice president of Kraft named Michael Mudd. “I very much appreciate this opportunity to talk to you about childhood obesity and the growing challenge it presents for us all,” Mudd began. “Let me say right at the start, this is not an easy subject. There are no easy answers — for what the public health community must do to bring this problem under control or for what the industry should do as others seek to hold it accountable for what has happened. But this much is clear: For those of us who’ve looked hard at this issue, whether they’re public health professionals or staff specialists in your own companies, we feel sure that the one thing we shouldn’t do is nothing.”

........................ click link for rest of article

[Frankwurst]

My Grandfather smoked camel straights, ate venison, salmon, beef, eggs, butter, fried potatoes and drank whiskey every day and lived to be 82. Worked like a dog but pretty much lived his life to enjoy it the way he saw fit. I might not see 82 but I'm rolling the same dice. Don't smoke camel straights but eat what I want and drink what I want, whenever I want. As long as I feel good F**k it. :beer:

[stephenmarklay]

My Grandfather smoked camel straights, ate venison, salmon, beef, eggs, butter, fried potatoes and drank whiskey every day and lived to be 82. Worked like a dog but pretty much lived his life to enjoy it the way he saw fit. I might not see 82 but I'm rolling the same dice. Don't smoke camel straights but eat what I want and drink what I want, whenever I want. As long as I feel good F**k it. :beer:

I want to be able to do what I do now or better when I am 60 and 70. I know that I may fall short but I want to keep going this way. I don't think at 82 with that lifestyle I would be able to. Having said that I think that is better than an obsession to be perfect. We are all and I repeat all going to die and the best we can do is do that gracefully.

[Tandem Rider]

I'm with tandem rider.

Although we don't really eat red meat. Mostly chicken and fish.

Also just an FYI, there's no proof that eating organic is healthier for you. It is healthier for the environment and the workers who work on the farms but the vitamins are still in the food.

Not to pick a fight, but ...

A friend of mine who competed at the Beijing Olympics was cautioned to not eat any meat over there because he would fail the pee test. Smaller doses over a longer time is what we have here in the commercial meat industry. Not for my family, thanks but no thanks, we'll pass on accelerated tumor growth.

As far as pesticides, insecticides, and herbicides, we consume a small amount each time we eat a fruit or vegetable that contains it. Anyone who thinks it's harmless is welcome to swig a glass and let us know how that worked out, if you survive.

[adamhell]

My Grandfather smoked camel straights, ate venison, salmon, beef, eggs, butter, fried potatoes and drank whiskey every day and lived to be 82. Worked like a dog but pretty much lived his life to enjoy it the way he saw fit. I might not see 82 but I'm rolling the same dice. Don't smoke camel straights but eat what I want and drink what I want, whenever I want. As long as I feel good F**k it. :beer:

http://www.tgaw.com/images/SpeakEasy/ThreeStooges.JPG

[oldpotatoe]

I don't think I need a documentary to tell me that. Falls into Michael Pollan's trope, "Eat food. Mostly plants. Not too much."

"Eat better, eat less, drink(alcohol) less, ride lots"..

[verticaldoug]

Not to pick a fight, but ...

A friend of mine who competed at the Beijing Olympics was cautioned to not eat any meat over there because he would fail the pee test. Smaller doses over a longer time is what we have here in the commercial meat industry. Not for my family, thanks but no thanks, we'll pass on accelerated tumor growth.

As far as pesticides, insecticides, and herbicides, we consume a small amount each time we eat a fruit or vegetable that contains it. Anyone who thinks it's harmless is welcome to swig a glass and let us know how that worked out, if you survive.

Winter in China and the annual airpocalyspe has begun with smog.

Regarding chicken:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/trouble-with-chicken/

Obviously, these are not the chickens that ran around on our farm in the 70's.

[marciero]

...
Having, said all that, there is a big difference between science and governmental guidelines. We are just starting to understand how dietary cholesterol is not the demon we thought it was. And there is another good documentary on Netflix called Fed Up which goes into how the government recommendations for diet are influenced by the food industry.

There was considerable politics and egos involved how the whole heart-disease-cholesterol-fat hypothesis, for which the evidence contrasted with a hundred years of nutrition research, became dogma. Gary Taubes' Good Calories, Bad Colories gives a comprehensive accounting, with extensive review of the literature (well over 1000 publications)

Pretty sure I saw Fed Up. Taubes might have been one of the interviewees. His short-attention-span version of some of the science is Why We Get Fat .

[Mikej]

Hey, on the other hand- if you eat the perfect diet you will still be poisoned by your couch, mattress cabinets and carpet.

[jtakeda]

Not to pick a fight, but ...

A friend of mine who competed at the Beijing Olympics was cautioned to not eat any meat over there because he would fail the pee test. Smaller doses over a longer time is what we have here in the commercial meat industry. Not for my family, thanks but no thanks, we'll pass on accelerated tumor growth.

As far as pesticides, insecticides, and herbicides, we consume a small amount each time we eat a fruit or vegetable that contains it. Anyone who thinks it's harmless is welcome to swig a glass and let us know how that worked out, if you survive.

i think we both agree that eating pesticides, poisons, etc is bad for you. what I'm trying to say is a lot of foods that are organic aren't necessarily drenched in poison. Fruits and veggies with thick skin, fruits that are naturally pest resistant, those are all stamped "organic" and sold at a premium because the American public has been falsely led to believe that organic=better when it's not really the case 100% of the time.

Leafy greens definitely buy organic. But there are a lot of things that don't need to be organic to avoid the health risk.

My point was a lot of people think buying organic is a health choice but the main argument pro-organic is environmental and worker safety.

PS I do buy organic--

[Mzilliox]

i think we both agree that eating pesticides, poisons, etc is bad for you. what I'm trying to say is a lot of foods that are organic aren't necessarily drenched in poison. Fruits and veggies with thick skin, fruits that are naturally pest resistant, those are all stamped "organic" and sold at a premium because the American public has been falsely led to believe that organic=better when it's not really the case 100% of the time.

Leafy greens definitely buy organic. But there are a lot of things that don't need to be organic to avoid the health risk.

My point was a lot of people think buying organic is a health choice but the main argument pro-organic is environmental and worker safety.

PS I do buy organic--

I would disagree partially. not all veggies are equal in nutrition, it requires diverse conditions to get entire nutrition. a head of conventionally grown lettuce will not have nearly the available nutrients as one grown even commercial organic, its not just the pesticides we should be concerned with, its the nutrition value. Your non organic melon or whatever might be "safe" in that it doesn't have poison, but that doesn't make it equal in quality. the organic fertilizer has more nutrients available in a form more available to the plants. this produces a superior vegetable in terms of caloric value.

So perhaps organic in and of itself is not that much better on the surface, but when you have made the choice to remove yourself from the commercial, non-organic machine, you are already showing me, the buyer, that you care more than the other farmers. if you care more than the other guys, you are most likely gardening better. if you are gardening better, your food is healthier, if your food is healthier, your health care costs go down. if your health care costs go down, we all benefit as a society.

now "natural growing", that is even superior to organic, because it removes the need to use mined minerals, and instead focuses on the health of soil organisms. and when you grow your food like this, its even that much more diverse in its nutrition. ill take the pepsi challenge with anything you buy in the store vs my produce grown here on the farm with natural methods. ill blow the store away in every measurable category, including most importantly, taste.

so in conclusion, the health of your veggies is directly proportional to the health of the soil it as grown in. a diverse alive soil will always, always and again, always put more vitamins in your veggies than conventional fertilizer. always. its just how nature works

[AngryScientist]

mzilliox pal, what are you eating for lunch?

[pinkshogun]

Nick-Pal, might we be seeing less of this on the bbq if the Ramble happens this summer?

I suggest Bubba burgers...meatless, gluten-free and pretty darn tasty compared to Boca and Morningstar

http://www.askchefdennis.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Bubba-Veggie-Burger_edited-1.jpg

[Mzilliox]

mzilliox pal, what are you eating for lunch?

haha, i eat crap as well, im not perfect by any means, and i love ice cream, pizza, and hamburgers. a lot

today ill be eating red beans and rice with peppers, garlic, onion, celery and carrot cooked in. I may melt some cheese on top or have a dollop of sour cream. I may have a piece of toast with it or not, depending on how hard i work in the next 3 hours, haha.

For dinner it will be farro with black cod caught just off the coast. seasoned with lemon, lemon thyme, flakey maldon sea salt and pepper and crusted in chopped almonds. baked, because its cold and any excuse to turn on the oven is a good one.

[adamhell]

I hate Taubes. I have watched his speeches and understand what he is getting at but there are some serious holes in his arguments. The idea that sugar is what lets fat into cells and makes you fat is true only if there is fat in the bloodstream to be let into cells. He assumes the answer to his argument (that sugar is the devil) to reach its conclusion, a logical fallacy. What I want to see is if you reverse his argument (eat predominantly carbohydrates, and as little fat as possible) what happens? this is the premise of many doctors like Neal Barnard, John McDougall, Michael Greger who don't buy into the paleo hype. They are all very skinny, and seem to be healthy older guys.

I know processed sugar is bad for you, but the idea of ketosis (running on your body's stores of fat and protein alone, and denying it any kind of carb) is a state of physiological emergency that is considered to be a "hack" in the paleo world in order to lose weight. it has not traditionally been understood as being healthy, but now people are saying it is (just see how ubiquitous paleo diets are). what I am getting at is that no amount of weird diet manipulation will ever be as good as good ol' fruits and veggies, and lots of em! I eat tons of fruit and find that it helps me get skinnier rather than the other way around. I feel leaner and faster on the bike when I've had heavy helpings of fruits in the morning, and stuff like cooked rice, pasta, & potatoes a bit later in the day. why a lot of people fail eating vegan is they think eating a lot is always bad. I eat tons, and find that WHAT I eat affects my weight gain/loss more than how much of it i eat.

[Geeheeb]

those keto people might have epilepsy, adam :)

[Mzilliox]

I hate Taubes. I have watched his speeches and understand what he is getting at but there are some serious holes in his arguments. The idea that sugar is what lets fat into cells and makes you fat is true only if there is fat in the bloodstream to be let into cells. He assumes the answer to his argument (that sugar is the devil) to reach its conclusion, a logical fallacy. What I want to see is if you reverse his argument (eat predominantly carbohydrates, and as little fat as possible) what happens? this is the premise of many doctors like Neal Barnard, John McDougall, Michael Greger who don't buy into the paleo hype. They are all very skinny, and seem to be healthy older guys.

I know processed sugar is bad for you, but the idea of ketosis (running on your body's stores of fat and protein alone, and denying it any kind of carb) is a state of physiological emergency that is considered to be a "hack" in the paleo world in order to lose weight. it has not traditionally been understood as being healthy, but now people are saying it is (just see how ubiquitous paleo diets are). what I am getting at is that no amount of weird diet manipulation will ever be as good as good ol' fruits and veggies, and lots of em! I eat tons of fruit and find that it helps me get skinnier rather than the other way around. I feel leaner and faster on the bike when I've had heavy helpings of fruits in the morning, and stuff like cooked rice, pasta, & potatoes a bit later in the day. why a lot of people fail eating vegan is they think eating a lot is always bad. I eat tons, and find that WHAT I eat affects my weight gain/loss more than how much of it i eat.

You have it! you are paying attention for sure. yes, all those sugars in the fruits are good for you! its energy. I like your observations. when im training hard im always eating. and my body tells me when it needs sugar or protein or vitamins. i get severe cravings when i have not eaten meat or beans in a while. i get light in the head when my body needs sugar or water. i get a feel in my mouth when i need more salt. i get grumpy when i need calories in general.

i have always eaten a lot, and hang out around 150lbs now. when in HS, i had an abysmal diet and once shot up to 190lbs when i was injured for a summer. cut out soda and fast food in college at some point, and my weight dropped a bit, but i put on a lot more muscle. now ive dropped weight and added yet more muscle going into my 30s, and eating a bit better each year, working out a bit more intelligently each year.

at age 36 i feel as healthy as ever, i don't heal as fast, and i have to stretch more, but my body feels great and my energy levels are up.

I blame farming

[adamhell]

yes!

[Chris]

a head of conventionally grown lettuce will not have nearly the available nutrients as one grown even commercial organic, its not just the pesticides we should be concerned with, its the nutrition value. Your non organic melon or whatever might be "safe" in that it doesn't have poison, but that doesn't make it equal in quality. the organic fertilizer has more nutrients available in a form more available to the plants. this produces a superior vegetable in terms of caloric value.


This is opinion from the organic camp. I applaud your dedication to your mode of farming, but to suggest things like organic foods provide any type of superiority over commercially grown is simply contradictory to the known science on the matter. I'm not saying there may not be benefits, but one of them is not that the non organic food is in some way less nutritious.

[stephenmarklay]

This is opinion from the organic camp. I applaud your dedication to your mode of farming, but to suggest things like organic foods provide any type of superiority over commercially grown is simply contradictory to the known science on the matter. I'm not saying there may not be benefits, but one of them is not that the non organic food is in some way less nutritious.

I have seen this sway both ways. However, my choice to eat 95% organic is just not eating as much pesticides. I know this is not fool proof but I vote with my dollars.

[brockd15]

This is an interesting topic that I used to care about more than I do now. There's so much contradictory information out there that for me it became too time consuming to find the "right" answer. Everybody has a different experience and you can pretty much find a scientific article or study to back up anything you want.

Personally, I ate paleo for a while a few years ago and it was fine. I lost some weight but plateaued pretty quickly. Other than not feeling as bloated as when I ate breads, grains, or whatever, I couldn't tell much difference.

I started paleo again earlier this year and saw the same sort of progress as the first time around. When I was in college I did triathlons and ate oatmeal, breads, pasta, etc. and don't remember having that bloated feeling, so I was suspicious about the actual cause. Then I decided to track my calories and macros instead. Doing that I've lost almost 3x as much weight as I did with paleo and am now at a lower weight when I was doing those triathlons in my early 20s.

IMO, or at least IME, the weight loss from paleo actually comes from the naturally lower calorie content of the food, not that the food is "paleo," or whole, or raw, or whatever. All that said, what makes sense to me is to eat foods that don't have things that seem to be bad. So the groceries we buy are mostly organic, but not always. And I'll definitely kill a box of ice cream sandwiches or a quart of ice cream before you can blink, but not every day.

I'm not so afraid of processed food anymore and find it to sometimes be almost a necessity (almost). My base calorie number is ~1850, then I add to that about ~1200 a day from bike commuting and walking. Eating 3000 calories a day of fruits and veggies is a lot of fruits and veggies just to maintain (15 sweet potatoes a day!) my current weight and now wreck my metabolism. So I eat mostly healthy, almost always in moderation, almost never deny myself if I'm really craving something, and have pretty good self-discipline when it comes to food. That's working fine for me.

[Chris]

I have seen this sway both ways. However, my choice to eat 95% organic is just not eating as much pesticides. I know this is not fool proof but I vote with my dollars.

That was my point. If you eat organic because of pesticides or farming practice or hormones (which I think is a huge contributor to the earlier onset of puberty in children [but that's my speculation]), or whatever, then by all means have at it and those seem like very very valid reasons. Just don't make claims about a benefit that hasn't been shown yet to be there.

[marciero]

I hate Taubes. I have watched his speeches and understand what he is getting at but there are some serious holes in his arguments. The idea that sugar is what lets fat into cells and makes you fat is true only if there is fat in the bloodstream to be let into cells. ...

I know processed sugar is bad for you, but the idea of ketosis (running on your body's stores of fat and protein alone, and denying it any kind of carb) is a state of physiological emergency that is considered to be a "hack" in the paleo world in order to lose weight...

This is an oversimplification of very complex physiological processes, and taking things to the extreme. For one thing, fat is necessary for survival, so of course there will be fat in the bloodstream. Also, not sure about the speeches you refer to, but I dont recall Taubes advocating for any particular diet in the book I referenced, paleo or otherwise, and certainly not anything as extreme as elimination of all carbs, which are found in many vegetables.

[classtimesailer]

It has been a while since I watched the movie but I recall much of the story was about the effects of avoiding all animal proteins. Organic, sustainable, non-processed, humane, whatever .... was not the point. My wife went vegan years ago when "modern" medicine was no help on a number of issues and consequently my dinners are a little different. Our dogs eat grain free bison, salmon, venison kibble. It is not a peta thing. I've got a pork butt on the stove for tamales. Whatever dudes. This is funny: http://www.skipshowersforbeef.com/
Watch them all. They get lol funny.