OT: Wolves in Yellowstone. Watch the clip....turn on volume.

[Ralph]

Not about cycling....I know....but humor me.

http://weloveanimals.me/released-14-wolves-park-no-one-prepared-unbelievable-nature11/

[harlond]

Fascinating stuff, thanks.

[fa63]

The video is nicely done, but the premise is not entirely true:

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/10/opinion/is-the-wolf-a-real-american-hero.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0

[unterhausen]

that's really interesting. We could probably use some wolves around here to get rid of the deer. I guess people wouldn't like not being able to put a house in any old place they want though.

[Kirk007]

While this video oversimplifies the science - trophic cascades science is rapidly evolving, this premise is consistent with the theory. The academic debate revolves around mechanisms and to the extent correlation is causation. As a wise man once said, - Leopold or Odum (memory failing me this morning) : ecosystems are more complex than we will ever know and that's probably a good thing.

Anyway this is my professional life; happy to provide more info to anyone interested. And yes we could use some real live nittany lions back in Happy Valley and throughout the east. Wolves too.

[eippo1]

Yes, I remember seeing this a while ago. Interesting how things are supposed to work. We are now coexisting with a lot more coyotes in my area than in the past and it has made a big difference with deer and rabbits. Did have an interesting run in with one and my dog about a month ago, but I didn't really have any business being on that trail pre-dawn when I know they are active there.

My dog usually gets pretty excited for wildlife, but this time she dropped her tail (she usually keeps it up for most wildlife and other dogs to project confidence), dropped her head, raised hackles, growled and walked backwards instead of turning around. I don't think she saw him, but I was able to see where she was sniffing and had a decent view. He was standing up on a small ridge and really puffing himself up, but just watching us. I have her on a 20' lead so kept step when she backed up past me and we slowly made our way back out. I'm curious if it would have been different if I had a smaller dog -- ours is a 70lb shepherd mix that has a huge coat with a mane.

[Kirk007]

I'm curious if it would have been different if I had a smaller dog -- ours is a 70lb shepherd mix that has a huge coat with a mane.

Probably not. Unless it was unhealthy/diseased/rabid a coyote or wolf for that matter is probably going to go the other way from a human particularly one on one but two qualifiers - coyotes are getting more socialized living in close proximity to humans and that can change their behaivor and depending on where you are in the east you may have encountered a coy dog or hybrid with a mix of eastern timber wolf, coyote and dog genes. Interestingly its thought this its the dog genes that can make these animals unusually aggressive.

[cmbicycles]

Probably not. Unless it was unhealthy/diseased/rabid a coyote or wolf for that matter is probably going to go the other way from a human particularly one on one but two qualifiers - coyotes are getting more socialized living in close proximity to humans and that can change their behaivor and depending on where you are in the east you may have encountered a coy dog or hybrid with a mix of eastern timber wolf, coyote and dog genes. Interestingly its thought this its the dog genes that can make these animals unusually aggressive.

I'm curious where these hybrids are more prevalent. I'm just outside of Richmond, VA and have seen a couple hit on the side of the road near an industrial complex where they are currently clearing large areas of woods and building corporate centers. They looked unusually large for coyotes, but I haven't stopped to look closely.

[cmbicycles]

Probably not. Unless it was unhealthy/diseased/rabid a coyote or wolf for that matter is probably going to go the other way from a human particularly one on one but two qualifiers - coyotes are getting more socialized living in close proximity to humans and that can change their behaivor and depending on where you are in the east you may have encountered a coy dog or hybrid with a mix of eastern timber wolf, coyote and dog genes. Interestingly its thought this its the dog genes that can make these animals unusually aggressive.

I'm curious where these hybrids are more prevalent. I'm just outside of Richmond, VA and have seen a couple hit on the side of the road near an industrial complex where they are currently clearing large areas of woods and building corporate centers. They looked unusually large for coyotes, but I haven't stopped to look closely. I had read about the coyotes crossing with wolves before, but haven't read into it much yet.

[Kirk007]

I'm curious where these hybrids are more prevalent. I'm just outside of Richmond, VA and have seen a couple hit on the side of the road near an industrial complex where they are currently clearing large areas of woods and building corporate centers. They looked unusually large for coyotes, but I haven't stopped to look closely.

Hard to generalize but generally more to the north where there's probably higher proportion of wolf genes. But they're all dogs and all capable of reproducing with one another so .... And there is some evidence of coyotes and even red wolf/coyote hybrids in North Carolina getting bigger in general, starting to hunt in packs and taking down more deer, which other than fawns are a bit of a load for your average coyote.

[verticaldoug]

I'm curious where these hybrids are more prevalent. I'm just outside of Richmond, VA and have seen a couple hit on the side of the road near an industrial complex where they are currently clearing large areas of woods and building corporate centers. They looked unusually large for coyotes, but I haven't stopped to look closely. I had read about the coyotes crossing with wolves before, but haven't read into it much yet.

It is most likely driven by prey. If you have a large white-tail deer population, it is probably a coy wolf.

We have coyotes in Lower Westchester country just outside of NYC. We had one run in front of us mid-day on the hilltop in town. It must have been spooked by something getting too close to it's den. We have enough raccoon, rabbit, opossum and stuff to keep them well fed.

If you are interested in wolves, you can read up on the wolf packs on Isle Royale. This is the longest study of predator-prey relationships in a closed system with the wolves hunting the 1200 moose on the island. Problem is the wolf numbers were always below 100, so never a genetically viable population. With warmer winters, Lake Superior doesn't freeze as often, and the population can not replenish. Their are now only 2 inbred wolves left on the island. So if wolves are not reintroduced, the next study is a predatorless moose population which will over populate, eventually eating everything on the island and having it's own population crash.

[93legendti]

Yes, I remember seeing this a while ago. Interesting how things are supposed to work. We are now coexisting with a lot more coyotes in my area than in the past and it has made a big difference with deer and rabbits. Did have an interesting run in with one and my dog about a month ago, but I didn't really have any business being on that trail pre-dawn when I know they are active there.

My dog usually gets pretty excited for wildlife, but this time she dropped her tail (she usually keeps it up for most wildlife and other dogs to project confidence), dropped her head, raised hackles, growled and walked backwards instead of turning around. I don't think she saw him, but I was able to see where she was sniffing and had a decent view. He was standing up on a small ridge and really puffing himself up, but just watching us. I have her on a 20' lead so kept step when she backed up past me and we slowly made our way back out. I'm curious if it would have been different if I had a smaller dog -- ours is a 70lb shepherd mix that has a huge coat with a mane.

oops, sorry, thought you were talking about deer.

[93legendti]

Not about cycling....I know....but humor me.

http://weloveanimals.me/released-14-wolves-park-no-one-prepared-unbelievable-nature11/
Very cool.
I love wolves.

[eippo1]

oops, sorry, thought you were talking about deer.

Hah, nope talking about a coyote. She tries to charge down deer.

[bob heinatz]

Not about cycling....I know....but humor me.

http://weloveanimals.me/released-14-wolves-park-no-one-prepared-unbelievable-nature11/

Cool

[93legendti]

Hah, nope talking about a coyote. She tries to charge down deer.

Yeah, that would be interesting.

As I understand sheep dogs, they took dogs with a strong prey drive and altered the drive to have them herd sheep. So I am not surprised your dog might charge deer. I've lived in my house for 23 years and only after getting a sheep dog have I found dead animals in the back yard, such as birds and chipmunks.

[PJN]

First minute of video - talks about deer over grazing - shows footage of elk.

[Kirk007]

First minute of video - talks about deer over grazing - shows footage of elk.

Brit producer. Not up on his ungulates!

[bobswire]

Brit producer. Not up on his ungulates!

No foul no harm, unless he goes deer hunting. :)

[PJN]

Given that the video is speaking about biology it should get that right.

[tctyres]

Given that the video is speaking about biology it should get that right.

I agree, but fwiw, there are a ton of deer in Yellowstone that are faster and less photogenic than elk.

If you think about it, the timescale for an aspen forest is ~50 years, and an "equilibrium**" aspen forest is longer than that. Reintroducing wolves should have some effect on the ungulates leading to changes in vegetation. However, there's an initial transient in the system (hence the "trophic cascade" observation), and the following observation that it's different 30 years on (vis-a-vis NY Times article). In another 30 years, there will be further rearrangements of the ecosystem.

All that said, the typical fire suppression policy in the West is a greater problem for forest regeneration and health than wolves or ungulates.

**Some people have argued against the concept of an "equilibrium" forest.

[thunderworks]

First minute of video - talks about deer over grazing - shows footage of elk.

Brits always refer to elk as deer.

[BigDaddySmooth]

Years ago, my wife and I (along with about 50 other "wolf people") witnessed the famous Alpha #21 and his pack take down an elk calf. It was amazing to watch the wolves (6 on 3) and the elk running very fast on undulating terrain. 21 made the kill and naturally ate first.

[dgauthier]

(...) I'm curious if it would have been different if I had a smaller dog (...)

I think you'd be fine with a coyote. The Santa Monica mountains that bisect Los Angeles are full of both coyotes and suburban neighborhoods. If you're out and about at sunrise you see them crossing the streets on their way back up to higher elevations. I've come across many (even once in my own backyard) and never felt threatened. They want absolutely nothing to do with humans.

[verticaldoug]

First minute of video - talks about deer over grazing - shows footage of elk.

European Red Deer are very close to Elk. Besides, it is not an elk, it is a wapiti. Any Native American knows the difference.
A european elk is a moose.

In simple terms, they are just all deer. So in fact, the narrator is correct.

[gdw]

Interesting video, thanks for sharing.