Another Help-Me-Choose-a-Custom-Builder Thread

[pncguy]

I apologize if this subject is tired. I've searched and not found what I am looking at. Here goes:

I am considering a Ti bike and I've narrowed my list of builders to Eriksen, Strong, Mosaic, Seven, Moots, Lynskey, and 333Fab. Of these, Mosaic is local to me - I could go over on lunch break to talk to them - but also the newest to the scene.

Does anyone have any experience buying a bike from Mosaic? Their location puts them at the top of my list, but their relative newness gives me pause. Or how about comments on any of these?

Thanks!

[d_douglas]

I would do Mosaic. The opportunity to KNOW the builder is too good to pass up. plus, they may be new, but they are making some pretty amazing bikes these days - I don't think you have anything to fear.

If you choose not to use them, check out Desalvo. He made my ti CX bike and it is very nicely made :)

[veloduffer]

I would also consider Jim Kish and Carl Strong. I've had many a Ti frame and they are also top builders. I currently own a Kish cross and Eriksen road.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dustyrider]

I've never gotten custom work done without dealing face to face. I feel like a lot of the custom-builder issues result from a lack of direct contact. I can't really say for certain when it comes to bikes because there hasn't been an off the rack bike that doesn't fit me, so I've never considered a custom bike. I feel for folks that don't fit the "norms" of bike sizing. Not only is it costly to get a custom bike but time intensive. I can walk into a bike shop right now and buy a bike that fits and turn around and ride that same day!

I like what mosiac is doing even without seeing one in person! I vote keep it local.

[joosttx]

I bought a mosaic xt-1 little over a year ago. The turn around was like 3 weeks which is not typical. I think where they excel is in their butting of tubes and turn around. BTW the bike is very nice. No issues with it or the process.


You are not going to go wrong with Mosaic, 7, or Eriksen

[RedRider]

We are a Mosaic dealer because of their quality. Moots too and if you want to stay somewhat local Alchemy in Denver does a great titanium frame.
It's easy to add to your list of great builders; harder to remove a name.

[adamhell]

what about Black Sheep? they are somewhat local in Fort Collins, and do pretty unique titanium stuff, it seems.

that said, just do the Mosaic... quality looks top notch and your proximity to them will be appreciated.

[93legendti]

I had a Strong Ti bike and it was exceptional. Very reasonable prices, short delivery times. Dave Kirk speaks very highly about Carl Strong. I think that's as good of an "endorsement" as there is. If I didn't get a Strong, I'd get a Spectrum. Great bike.

[Tony T]

I am considering a Ti bike and I've narrowed my list of builders to Eriksen, Strong, Mosaic, Seven, Moots, Lynskey, and 333Fab.

Only narrowed down to seven?
Add Firefly for an even 8.

(Seriously though, I have a Ti from Firefly — Great guys, great bike :))

[uber]

I have nothing but great things to say about Kent Eriksen (even though I am selling the frame). I love the idea of dealing with someone local. It would be hard for me not to take a really hard look at Mosaic if I were in your position.

[nmrt]

I am also local (2 miles form them) to Mosaic and I am also in the same boat as you are -- I am also thinking about a new Ti road bike frame. My list was: Moots, Mosaic, No22, and Eriksen.

I quickly removed Mosaic from the list because the local dealers are charging $5500 for a frameset (rt-1)! That is way too expensive for my blood. It is more expensive that a Vamoots RSL. The RSL may or may not be a better bike than the Mosaic, but Moots as a company have been in the scene for a longer time.

[Lund]

+1 for local. Person to person transaction, no shipping, possible tour of the shop or behind-the-scenes-action (if you're into machinery). For me, the experience is better having a discussion/ transaction in the flesh, instead of exchanging emails/ phone calls about the project.

No experience with Mosaic personally from me (IMO they look super radical) but I think buying local is the way to go.

[Kirk007]

If the builder really knows design then the ability to meet is a big advantage. Local is nice but expertise is better. Tom Kellogg (Spectrum) always seems to be left off these ti lists to my amazement. He's been designing ti bikes since the early Merlin days. Special sources his tubes that are shaped and swagged beyond the ability of many custom builders. Fabricated by one or two hand selected welders at Seven and has been fitting bikes of all types for over 30 years. Don't overlook the potential value of a trip to Trexlertown.

[p nut]

There is great value in going local. So I agree with those that voted Mosaic (although I have no experience with that company). When I got my custom frame, it was nice to be able to meet the builder in person, take measurements there, pick it up in person (waiting for UPS sucks), etc. Plus, if there are any issues with the frame, it's just a drive over instead of days/weeks of waiting for shipping both ways.

[Pastashop]

Not first-hand experience, but over the years I heard only exceptionally positive things about Tom Kellogg's bikes and - most importantly - fitting riders to a bike. Fast guys on the team who were riding Merlin back-in-the-day also raved about those bikes. Bonus: if you go to Trexlertown, PA during the Swap Meet, you can get some goodies for good prices. :-) (The riding around that area is pretty good, too.)

[gdw]

What type of frame are you planning to buy.....road, gravel, mountain, etc?

[buddybikes]

$5,500 yikes - FF is 4,200, 3,300 for Erikson - guess difference is dealer markup.

[FlashUNC]

If you're buying local, take into account sales tax in your budget for the frame purchase.

[nmrt]

Absolutely -- in 2013 the RT1 was $3200. And you would order direct from Mosaic. Now, they do not take orders directly, hence, the markup.
At this price, I could get a Firefly or a Spectrum Super!



$5,500 yikes - FF is 4,200, 3,300 for Erikson - guess difference is dealer markup.

[charliedid]

I'll echo RR and say to go talk to the fine folks at Alchemy as well.

[fiamme red]

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2016/12/13/the-lure-of-titanium-bikes/

The Firefly impressed me so much during our ride over the 4000 m-high Paso de Cortés in Mexico (above) that I bought the test bike! It’s designed as a racing bike with ultra-wide (54 mm) 26″ tires. Riding the bike all over the place, I found that it really has delivered on the promise of combining the best of a racing bike with the go-anywhere ability of wide tires.

[joosttx]

$5,500 yikes - FF is 4,200, 3,300 for Erikson - guess difference is dealer markup.

Maybe also butting the tubes. Around $3500 is what you for straight gauge tubes. Please check that.

[cmbicycles]

Not first-hand experience, but over the years I heard only exceptionally positive things about Tom Kellogg's bikes and - most importantly - fitting riders to a bike. Fast guys on the team who were riding Merlin back-in-the-day also raved about those bikes. Bonus: if you go to Trexlertown, PA during the Swap Meet, you can get some goodies for good prices. :-) (The riding around that area is pretty good, too.)
If I was in the market for a custom ti bike, Tom/Spectrum would be the only stop. Nothing against anyone else, there are so many good choices, but having interacted with him for customer frame repairs/refinishes and working with Merlin back in the day, plus being from eastern PA and loving the Lehigh Valley, and the barn looks like a cool old building... well, I digress. Every one of his bikes Ive seen are fabulous, his fitting is top notch, and he was always willing to share a wealth of knowledge.

Of course I'm not in the market for a custom ti bike... but just because you are on a diet doesn't mean you can't look at the menu. ;)

[weisan]

If I was in the market for a custom ti bike, Tom/Spectrum would be the only stop.

my personal choice as well, and no offense to other very capable builders.

[crankles]

Plug for Erik Rolf of Alliance In Hailey, ID. Erik spent a few years with Carl before hanging out his own shingle in 2009?. I'm on Frame #4 from him, the latest a Ti disc CX bike. I think Ti is really where he shines. Pics. https://www.flickr.com/photos/68717261@N00/albums/72157676458751540

He's good with communication and accurate with delivery times.
Double butted Reynolds Ti starts at $3150.

[d_douglas]

If Mosaics are going for $5500, I'd question how they command over $100 more than Firefly, arguably the grand wizards of titanium bikes these days.

Back to desalvo, his build quality is equal and prices are 40% lower.

[Ken Robb]

All I can say is that My Hampsten Strada Bianca by MOOTS is wonderful. While I guess that Hampsten is still designing wonderful bikes they are no longer built by MOOTS whose YBB rear end is something I love. You probably can't miss with a Hampsten or a MOOTS.

[pdmtong]

Moots is viable as long as you can ride one of their stock sizes.

Their pricing does not favor those who want/need any changes

[CSKeller]

The ones you listed are great but check out Rich Gangl.

Rich is local...Golden, CO. He builds some of the sweetest ti bikes.

Check him out. the wait is most likely a year but worth it. I bought one from him in 2001...amazing bike!

http://ganglcustomcycles.com/

He had a big booth at NAHBS when it was in Denver.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLWNc9FtjBo

[Duende]

They aren't cheap. I struggled with the prices too, especially because they just went up.

But the Mosiaic build had everything I was looking for in terms of design and parts/materials.

Now that I have GT-1 I'm consistently blown away by how well it handles both on and off road. It was the 100% right decision for me.

I think that being that you live so close, you have to go check out their shop. Consider it a research exercise whether you buy a Mosaic or not.

[tigoat]

Geez the guy did his research and narrowed down his list of buying choices but you guys still mention something else, go figure. Plus, how can you recommend something without any firsthand experience with the subject? It seems like a post like this one always bring the fantasyland out of everyone.

Back to the subject matter, Aaron has been building frames for more than a decade so Mosaic is far from being new in the industry. Aaron’s Ti welds come close to Brad Bingham’s, which I would consider one of the best in the industry. CO is a hotbed of bicycle production so I don’t think there is a good reason to go anywhere else to acquire one since you live there. Out of that hit list, if I wanted a custom Ti frame today I would talk to Kent Eriksen or even Moots tomorrow, nothing else will matter.

[oldpotatoe]

I apologize if this subject is tired. I've searched and not found what I am looking at. Here goes:

I am considering a Ti bike and I've narrowed my list of builders to Eriksen, Strong, Mosaic, Seven, Moots, Lynskey, and 333Fab. Of these, Mosaic is local to me - I could go over on lunch break to talk to them - but also the newest to the scene.

Does anyone have any experience buying a bike from Mosaic? Their location puts them at the top of my list, but their relative newness gives me pause. Or how about comments on any of these?

Thanks!

Sold a couple, very versatile, no real 'stock' bike. Small buy he knows his stuff.
You can look at a few at ProPeloton in Boulder.

While there, go talk Jim at Vecchio's-one of the largest Moots dealers in the country. Test drive rigs..you won't be disappointed. Not sure you will find any test ride bikes. Jim will let you take for an afternoon-type test ride

303-440-3535

For right above..yes, 3 great Colorado based Ti builders. I personally would opt for Moots.

[oldpotatoe]

$5,500 yikes - FF is 4,200, 3,300 for Erikson - guess difference is dealer markup.

Not really. No real 'dealer' for Eriksen, so margin comparisons tough. Same for FF. Mosaic does have a few dealers around, one in Boulder. Direct to customer makers essentially double their margin. BUT sometimes hard for a small builder to have any economy of scale.

[Steve K]

Alchemy sells direct and through dealers. They are a good team - committed to building a sustainable business. Stop in they'll (maybe Cody or Ryan) take you through the shop (it is impressive). You can see/ride most models they use for demos.

I have one of their carbon bikes; while those prices have jump'd a up quickly (ouch level); their Ti frames are a bit reasonable. I worked directly with them; all went well, they did a retul fit that was included and it doesn't hurt to ask if they can work on the price somehow. Let them say why not or how about this. Even after a couple years of owning one I can stop in with the bike; they'll ask how it is and check it out. Good customer service.

One thing on their Ti frames that might be different than others is the rear drop outs and you can have different finishes including paint which they do right there.

Have fun!

[mcteague]

If I was in the market for a custom ti bike, Tom/Spectrum would be the only stop. Nothing against anyone else, there are so many good choices, but having interacted with him for customer frame repairs/refinishes and working with Merlin back in the day, plus being from eastern PA and loving the Lehigh Valley, and the barn looks like a cool old building... well, I digress. Every one of his bikes Ive seen are fabulous, his fitting is top notch, and he was always willing to share a wealth of knowledge.

Of course I'm not in the market for a custom ti bike... but just because you are on a diet doesn't mean you can't look at the menu. ;)

Rob Vandermark worked closely with Tom back in the Merlin days. Now, Seven builds all the Spectrum Ti frames, however, Tom does the design and Tom & Jeff do the final finish work.

tim

[CSKeller]

I would choose Mosaic, Eriksen or Strong.

Tigoat, the reason I brought up Rich Gangl is because many avid cyclists, even in CO, do not know about him. Rich have been building frames since 1979. Plenty of experience AND he is very local to the OP's location. It would be easy for him to check out.

I'm sure the OP did a lot of research...I know, I've been there. But when I was looking and someone mentioned another builder that I never knew about and the builder was local, it gave me another option.

I knew right away after I met Rich Gangl that he was going to build my frame. He spent 3+ hours talking with me. It was not an appointment, I walked in off the street.

It's the OPs choice to check him out or not....i merely provided a suggestion based on my actual experience of buying a custom frame.

[cmbicycles]

Rob Vandermark worked closely with Tom back in the Merlin days. Now, Seven builds all the Spectrum Ti frames, however, Tom does the design and Tom & Jeff do the final finish work.

tim
Rob's name used to appear on the chain stays of many Merlin frames until he started up Seven. Seven makes fine bikes too, no doubt. Seven miters tubes and welds the frames, but the patented welding process, tube selection, and overall design are all by Spectrum. Buying a Spectrum isn't the same as buying a Seven... though both are excellent bikes.

[Kirk007]

Geez the guy did his research and narrowed down his list of buying choices but you guys still mention something else, go figure. Plus, how can you recommend something without any firsthand experience with the subject? It seems like a post like this one always bring the fantasyland out of everyone.


From the original Q: "Or how about comments on any of these?"

First I think the OP is obviously still looking and seeking suggestions so why take folks to task for commenting or even expanding on folks perhaps overlooked particularly ones they have personal experience with? For me, I've had a Serotta Legend, a Lynskey and now 2 Spectrums (used) and just got fitted at the barn for a third.

What I've learned in these experiences, which has included my own research of others as well such as discussions with Firefly, Seven, Tom K, Lunshey dealers, Max at 333Fab (who makes really nice bikes btw, and who worked at Seven and welded the Spectrum bikes when he was there), Bill Davidson, etc. is that lots of builders can make a nice looking and great riding ti bike but that there are lots of nuances that differentiate and are not easily discerned on first blush. What extent these nuances make in the ride is hard to tell I suspect unless someone has the coin to order a custom set and try to figure it out (exs: butted vs straight guage, differences in swagging, diameter of chainstays etc (what's available to them from their suppliers - they many not be drawing from the same well of tubes and then of course design philosophy - compact vs level top tube based on ride criteria, and aesthetics from design elements to finish work.

If I was about to plunk down almost 1k (or over) for a Mosaic than what I would pay for a Spectrum or Firefly or 333Fab I would want to know what the value add was. If I was looking at a Moots with stock geometry I'd want to talk to some builders or have a fitting to fully understand if stock geometry would give me the ride I would want that I could get with custom.

So yeah, go figure. Guys who have been down this road a few times are trying to help the OP out. What part of that is engaging in their own personal Fantasy land

[mcteague]

Rob's name used to appear on the chain stays of many Merlin frames until he started up Seven. Seven makes fine bikes too, no doubt. Seven miters tubes and welds the frames, but the patented welding process, tube selection, and overall design are all by Spectrum. Buying a Spectrum isn't the same as buying a Seven... though both are excellent bikes.

Isn't that pretty much what I wrote? :D

Tim

[Bob Ross]

I have no idea whether "buying local" really offers any advantages, though I certainly get why folks are strongly encouraging that. I don't know because I've never ordered a custom frame from a local builder.

I have however ordered two custom frames from two different builders, neither of whom were local and neither of whom I have ever even met. Didn't seem to negatively impact the designing/ordering process, and certainly didn't seem to negatively impact the final product. Well, I guess there were a couple healthy shipping fees that could have been avoided if I'd bought local...but local sales tax would've made that a wash, so nevermind.

But, since one of those frames was by a guy on OP's short list, I will say that based on my experience with Carl Strong, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend him. Highly. The bike he built for me is stunningly badass in every way, fits like a glove, performs like a sports car, looks gorgeous... but the process of doing business with Carl is quite possibly one of the most satisfying exercises in commerce I've ever engaged in. The guy is a professional in every sense of the word.

[Mikej]

Maybe also butting the tubes. Around $3500 is what you for straight gauge tubes. Please check that.

2k to butt tubes is outrageous- nice bikes though. Me, I can't wait so I'd go Eriksen or seven-if it were in the cards tho- firefly if I could wait -
I currently own 2 built for me Eriksens- I would say to be sure you are fitted up prior to contacting Kent- they are great peeps!

[joosttx]

2k to butt tubes is outrageous- nice bikes though. Me, I can't wait so I'd go Eriksen or seven-if it were in the cards tho- firefly if I could wait.

Mosaic does offer a straight gauge tube bike for cheaper. The comparison is not apples to apples is my point.

When I bought my mosaic a year or so ago, I did price most of these brands that are being talked about on this thread- FF, Strong, Mosaic, Seven to be exact. I wanted butted tubes, disc, thru-axle, internal routing. What I recall was that the bikes frames were all about the same price with those features regardless of builder. Things could of changed since August 2015 but I imagine not that much. Depending on features the OP wants on his bike will reflect the price. Some builders give you options at a set base price while others up charge.

[nmrt]

Mosaic RT-1 (butted): 5500 (frameset)
Strong (Butted): 3600 (frame)
Eriksen (does not offer butting): 3500 (frame)
Moots RSL (butted): 5069 (frameset)
Firefly (butted): 4200 (frameset)
Spectrum (butted): 4400 (frameset)
No 22 (Great Divide -- butted): 3300 (frameset)
No 22 (Reactor -- butted): 4700 (frameset) -- but this has a carbon seat tube
Indy Fab (Crown Jewel -- butted (?)): 4095 (frameset)
Seven Axiom Sl (butted): 3700 (frameset)

The Mosaic is the most expensive frameset that I have come across. Aaron is a great bike builder (from what I have heard). I have no reason to doubt this. But why is a Mosaic frameset so much more expensive than the others?

My question is absolutely a valid one as I am in the same boat as the OP. I removed Mosaic from my list because of the cost. Or did I miss anything about Mosaic and I should put it back. Is it worth the extra cost?

Mosaic does offer a straight gauge tube bike for cheaper. The comparison is not apples to apples is my point.

When I bought my mosaic a year or so ago, I did price most of these brands that are being talked about on this thread- FF, Strong, Mosaic, Seven to be exact. I wanted butted tubes, disc, thru-axle, internal routing. What I recall was that the bikes frames were all about the same price with those features regardless of builder. Things could of changed since August 2015 but I imagine not that much. Depending on features the OP wants on his bike will reflect the price. Some builders give you options at a set base price while others up charge.

[nmrt]

I think I may have answered my own question. Mosaic is expensive because of dealer costs...? Please correct me if I am incorrect.
All of the other builders in the above list (except Moots), are direct.

[ColonelJLloyd]

I think I may have answered my own question. Mosaic is expensive because of dealer costs...? Please correct me if I am incorrect.
All of the other builders in the above list (except Moots), are direct.

You quoted joosttx, but didn't acknowledge his point about options. Are you factoring this?

[572cv]

Geez the guy did his research and narrowed down his list of buying choices but you guys still mention something else, go figure. Plus, how can you recommend something without any firsthand experience with the subject? It seems like a post like this one always bring the fantasyland out of everyone.

Back to the subject matter, Aaron has been building frames for more than a decade so Mosaic is far from being new in the industry. Aaron’s Ti welds come close to Brad Bingham’s, which I would consider one of the best in the industry. CO is a hotbed of bicycle production so I don’t think there is a good reason to go anywhere else to acquire one since you live there. Out of that hit list, if I wanted a custom Ti frame today I would talk to Kent Eriksen or even Moots tomorrow, nothing else will matter.

There are wonderful builders out there, properly cited in this thread. I can only offer recent first hand experience. I don't really have a local builder doing the type of bike I wanted. So I went with a builder who does make that bike, and whose frames I have consistently admired. I had a great interactive experience, and the bike is exactly what I wanted, and beautiful as well. I worked with Kent Eriksen.

[FlashUNC]

I think I may have answered my own question. Mosaic is expensive because of dealer costs...? Please correct me if I am incorrect.
All of the other builders in the above list (except Moots), are direct.

Wut?

Seven has dealers. No 22 has dealers. Indy Fab has dealers.

[ltwtsculler91]

Wut?

Seven has dealers. No 22 has dealers. Indy Fab has dealers.

No22 is a screaming deal in this situation if you're looking for a Ti bike.

Great Divide is 3299 frameset, 6299 with Ultegra/Carbon build kit, if you need custom geo or discs add 500 per. This is for a butted tubed bike that rides incredibly well, and the detailing is amazing

[John H.]

I was going to say this.
If you want local, personal, custom to the nth degree, etc.- Gangl would be the choice for your area.

The ones you listed are great but check out Rich Gangl.

Rich is local...Golden, CO. He builds some of the sweetest ti bikes.

Check him out. the wait is most likely a year but worth it. I bought one from him in 2001...amazing bike!

http://ganglcustomcycles.com/

He had a big booth at NAHBS when it was in Denver.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLWNc9FtjBo

[nmrt]

I stand corrected.
Thanks -- flashunc

Wut?

Seven has dealers. No 22 has dealers. Indy Fab has dealers.

[nmrt]

I understood the point joosttx was trying to make. But to make a price comparison across different bike builder keeping prices for different bike building options (disc brakes, paint, Di2, couplers etc) in mind would have become very complicated. It could be that if you want a lot of add on options, then perhaps Mosaic would be in the same price as everyone else? For me, since I did not want any of these options, Mosaic was the most expensive.

Also, I am not sure if for the Mosaic for 5500 you can add any options for this price. Anyone know?

You quoted joosttx, but didn't acknowledge his point about options. Are you factoring this?

[559Rando]

I don't want to pile on...a lot of good stuff's been said, mainly don't underestimate the value of the local builder.

I do have to ask 2 questions, though:
1) Why are you going custom? I certainly don't poo-poo custom...I've done this twice now, since the Bicycle Quarterly recipe isn't available off the shelf.
2) Why Titanium? I've never had titanium, but is it is really that much lighter than light steel? I should search...but I'm not sure that it is.

[nmrt]

at least for me a Ti ride is very diffrent from a steel bike. It is not about the weight or else I would be on a carbon frame.:)

I don't want to pile on...a lot of good stuff's been said, mainly don't underestimate the value of the local builder.

I do have to ask 2 questions, though:
1) Why are you going custom? I certainly don't poo-poo custom...I've done this twice now, since the Bicycle Quarterly recipe isn't available off the shelf.
2) Why Titanium? I've never had titanium, but is it is really that much lighter than light steel? I should search...but I'm not sure that it is.

[joosttx]

I understood the point joosttx was trying to make. But to make a price comparison across different bike builder keeping prices for different bike building options (disc brakes, paint, Di2, couplers etc) in mind would have become very complicated. It could be that if you want a lot of add on options, then perhaps Mosaic would be in the same price as everyone else? For me, since I did not want any of these options, Mosaic was the most expensive.

Also, I am not sure if for the Mosaic for 5500 you can add any options for this price. Anyone know?

I did a quick look at the price of my mosaic frame it was $5400 and the Firefly equivalent is $5100. I don't know what the pice for a 7 but comparable frame by 7 would be the Evergreen SLX. Regarding the Strong I am pretty sure that the price is for straight gauge tubes. I could be wrong but I thought the Strong was a super great deal but once I priced it out to what I wanted it was in the $5k range.

The customer service from Mosaic and Above Category (the bike shop) was excellent and frankly the best experience buying a bike. They delivered on budget and sooner than promised. And the product is exceptional.

[ColonelJLloyd]

Also, I am not sure if for the Mosaic for 5500 you can add any options for this price. Anyone know?

http://www.mosaiccycles.com/rt-1-features

The owner of a shop down the street from my main LBS had a custom Firefly that was for sale last time I was in. He is now a Mosaic dealer, FWIW.

[joosttx]

I don't want to pile on...a lot of good stuff's been said, mainly don't underestimate the value of the local builder.

I do have to ask 2 questions, though:
1) Why are you going custom? I certainly don't poo-poo custom...I've done this twice now, since the Bicycle Quarterly recipe isn't available off the shelf.
2) Why Titanium? I've never had titanium, but is it is really that much lighter than light steel? I should search...but I'm not sure that it is.

I like TI because I am use to it. It also can take a lot of abuse and doesn't rust. Its also lighter than steel. I realize carbon can do the same but I am more use to Ti.

[559Rando]

Stainless (like Reynolds 953) can hang with Ti, it seems:

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7/k4drd/Bicycles/ReynoldsMaterialsComparisonChartxsm.jpg

[svelocity]

Apologies if I missed someone mentioning this before but Holland Cycles of San Diego have been doing Ti for ages. Forum member ptourkin has been riding one of the Exogrids for a few years now and logs insane miles with nothing but good things to say.

http://hollandcycles.com/

[ColonelJLloyd]

Stainless (like Reynolds 953) can hang with Ti, it seems:

But won't be as light, right? Regardless, it seems the OP knows that he/she wants Ti.

[nmrt]

The Strong double butted frame is $3600. So, I guess $4000 for the frameset.
It still is $1400 cheaper than the Mosaic. It may have made fiscal sense for you because of the options you added and I can understand how the Strong would not seem like the bargain. But for me, I do not need any options, just a double butted frame for rim brakes. So, $1400 is a big difference to me.

I did a quick look at the price of my mosaic frame it was $5400 and the Firefly equivalent is $5100. I don't know what the pice for a 7 but comparable frame by 7 would be the Evergreen SLX. Regarding the Strong I am pretty sure that the price is for straight gauge tubes. I could be wrong but I thought the Strong was a super great deal but once I priced it out to what I wanted it was in the $5k range.

The customer service from Mosaic and Above Category (the bike shop) was excellent and frankly the best experience buying a bike. They delivered on budget and sooner than promised. And the product is exceptional.

[joosttx]

The Strong double butted frame is $3600. So, I guess $4000 for the frameset.
It still is $1400 cheaper than the Mosaic. It may have made fiscal sense for you because of the options you added and I can understand how the Strong would not seem like the bargain. But for me, I do not need any options, just a double butted frame for rim brakes. So, $1400 is a big difference to me.

Does that $3600 come with the option called a fork?

When you add it up apples to apples a Mosaic is about $500 more expensive.

[ThasFACE]

my personal choice as well, and no offense to other very capable builders.

Another vote for Spectrum (with no offense meant to others mentioned). Superb bikes, great guys, and the process is a lot of fun. My experiences with TK and Jeff have been so consistently positive that I'm always toying with the idea of getting another.

[pncguy]

Wow, thanks for all the replies! I got virtually none where I posted before, so I am happy to have the info.

Let me answer some questions first.

- I'm looking for a road frame built for long rides and climbing around Colorado. It doesn't have to be the lightest because I'm not going to race and I do want it sturdy for when the pavement turns to dirt. I won't be looking for gravel to ride on, but I'll take it when it comes.

- I don't want carbon because it is more fragile and I actually don't really like the ride. There's something dull about it - almost harsh, but in a totally different way than aluminum. (I don't like carbon in my skis either!) I also want to keep it forever, so that leads me to steel or Ti. And, Carl Strong says "Steel is the best balance of cost weight and durability. If you want a lighter frame, with great durability, titanium is the choice for you but you will pay a premium. Carbon fiber is perfect for the customer who wants the lightest, stiffest frame, isn’t as concerned with durability, and is willing to pay the price. Aluminum is cheap, light and stiff, but when built to be light, suffers from low durability."

- custom, because I can. But one option is the insane deal Lynskey is offering on the R150 right now. If I'm honest with myself, that's probably all the bike I need. But who wants just the bike they need?

Thank you for all the other suggestions. I had Spectrum, Firefly, Black Sheep, and Alchemy on my list, but they're mostly more expensive. Working with Tom Kellogg looks like it would be a dream, but you also pay for that privilege. There is a lot that goes into Spectrum bikes that makes them wonderful, but I don't think there is value in that for me. I had never heard of Gangl, but his prices are high, too.

It is looking like - if I go custom - it is down to Strong, Eriksen, and Mosaic, but Mosaic isn't selling direct any more, so that may lead to higher prices and a less personal build, despite their proximity to me. I think in this case, Eriksen is local enough. I do love all the information Strong has put out. I have read elsewhere that at this point there isn't a wrong answer. All three of those builders (heck, ALL of the ones we've discussed) build a great product.

For the curious, I'll post when I decide!

[pncguy]

And then I just read this as how to "flip the coin:"

"My advice is the same as before, relative to your original question. I'd get on the phone with both guys and see who you click with. Because in every custom project, the working relationship is the most important element once you determine your price range."

[nmrt]

Read what I said in my post -- $4000 for the frame set (this includes something called a fork). A Mosaic (as I said my my post) is $1400 more expensive.
Does that $3600 come with the option called a fork?

When you add it up apples to apples a Mosaic is about $500 more expensive.

[nmrt]

your apples and my apples are different. read what I said in my post.
i want a double butted frameset for rim brakes. Nothing more nothing less. Strong is $4000 (frameset). Mosaic is $5400 or $5500 (frameset).
Strong in $1400 cheaper for me.
.

Does that $3600 come with the option called a fork?

When you add it up apples to apples a Mosaic is about $500 more expensive.

[David Kirk]

If I were spending my own money I'd be thinking Strong or Holland.

dave

[pncguy]

If I were spending my own money I'd be thinking Strong or Holland.

dave

I think if I lived in Bozeman or Steamboat the choice would be easy!

[Andy sti]

For the curious, I'll post when I decide!

You better, that's the fun of all this.

[choke]

Out of your list my choice would easily be Max at 333Fab. He's a really nice guy, has been building bikes for a long time and I loved the work he did for Hampsten.

[joosttx]

your apples and my apples are different <snip>
.

Cannot argue with that.

[cadence90]

.... ..

[djg]

Wow, thanks for all the replies! I got virtually none where I posted before, so I am happy to have the info.

Let me answer some questions first.

- I'm looking for a road frame built for long rides and climbing around Colorado. It doesn't have to be the lightest because I'm not going to race and I do want it sturdy for when the pavement turns to dirt. I won't be looking for gravel to ride on, but I'll take it when it comes.

- I don't want carbon because it is more fragile and I actually don't really like the ride. There's something dull about it - almost harsh, but in a totally different way than aluminum. (I don't like carbon in my skis either!) I also want to keep it forever, so that leads me to steel or Ti. And, Carl Strong says "Steel is the best balance of cost weight and durability. If you want a lighter frame, with great durability, titanium is the choice for you but you will pay a premium. Carbon fiber is perfect for the customer who wants the lightest, stiffest frame, isn’t as concerned with durability, and is willing to pay the price. Aluminum is cheap, light and stiff, but when built to be light, suffers from low durability."

- custom, because I can. But one option is the insane deal Lynskey is offering on the R150 right now. If I'm honest with myself, that's probably all the bike I need. But who wants just the bike they need?

Thank you for all the other suggestions. I had Spectrum, Firefly, Black Sheep, and Alchemy on my list, but they're mostly more expensive. Working with Tom Kellogg looks like it would be a dream, but you also pay for that privilege. There is a lot that goes into Spectrum bikes that makes them wonderful, but I don't think there is value in that for me. I had never heard of Gangl, but his prices are high, too.

It is looking like - if I go custom - it is down to Strong, Eriksen, and Mosaic, but Mosaic isn't selling direct any more, so that may lead to higher prices and a less personal build, despite their proximity to me. I think in this case, Eriksen is local enough. I do love all the information Strong has put out. I have read elsewhere that at this point there isn't a wrong answer. All three of those builders (heck, ALL of the ones we've discussed) build a great product.

For the curious, I'll post when I decide!

I'm out -- several Ti bikes over the years, including a couple of very good stock Serottas (still have one, lost the other to a thief) but the only Ti frame I've had custom built is a Spectrum. Tom nailed it and he's a prince of a fellow.

So ends my first-hand knowledge -- heard good things about Strong, and Eriksen, from your list, and I've seen a few of Carl Strong's bikes, but that doesn't tell me much -- probably of no value to you at all. I'll just wish you luck -- the custom frame option is not inexpensive, but it's pretty darn cool when it goes well.

[Andy sti]

I have a custom Serotta Ti from 12 years ago - that's currently for sale as my fit and riding style have changed. If I was doing it again I would go with the single person builder vs bike brand. People like Kish, DeSalvo, Strong, etc vs the Moots, Mosaic, Seven, Firefly brands. That just appeals to me more nowadays. This is what I plan on doing for a new steel frame, once I sell off some others.

[buddybikes]

Of course few more factors:
1. Time - Firefly - what is wait time now, over year?
2. Artistic - do you want a blasted, brushed or polished finis, custom anodizing?

re: single builder = FF is nothing like Seven or Ind Fab - you know who is doing the cutting, brazing and fitting.

[binouye]

I'm late to the party (by 5 pages), but will chime in anyway. I've got a Strong Ti road frame and love it. I put more miles on it than the other bikes I ride, have had it 5 years and don't plan to ever sell it. I recommend Carl.
I also had a Strong steel touring frame a for a couple years, bought it here used and sold it here. It was a nice bike too, but I wasn't touring on it and passed it along.
My other Ti frame experience is with Moots, a stock mtn frame. My only ride on a Moots road frame was a short demo. From that limited experience I'd say that a Moots would make you happy too. The others on the list have great reputations, but I don't have experience with them.

[buddybikes]

Of course few more factors:
1. Time - Firefly - what is wait time now, over year?
2. Artistic - do you want a blasted, brushed or polished finis, custom anodizing?

[choke]

And then I just read this as how to "flip the coin:"

"My advice is the same as before, relative to your original question. I'd get on the phone with both guys and see who you click with. Because in every custom project, the working relationship is the most important element once you determine your price range."Quoted for truth.

A few years ago I was interested in a custom frame and had narrowed it down to 3 builders.......all of whom are highly regarded and nearly universally praised for their customer service. 2 of the 3 were attending NAHBS, which was close to me, so I made the trip to the show. One of them was everything I'd read and more - gracious, friendly and always had time to talk to me, not only about bikes but just life in general. The other individual I only talked to for a short time - he came across as if he didn't really want to talk to me and his answers to my questions were almost curt. Perhaps I caught him at a bad time but that experience meant that he will never build a frame for me.

[jmeloy]

If the builder really knows design then the ability to meet is a big advantage. Local is nice but expertise is better. Tom Kellogg (Spectrum) always seems to be left off these ti lists to my amazement. He's been designing ti bikes since the early Merlin days. Special sources his tubes that are shaped and swagged beyond the ability of many custom builders. Fabricated by one or two hand selected welders at Seven and has been fitting bikes of all types for over 30 years. Don't overlook the potential value of a trip to Trexlertown.



Got my Ti bike from Tom and the bike and the experience were remarkable.


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[Duende]

I think one has to recognize their own priorities in choosing a builder. Price vs turnaround time vs geometry & build materials.

I'm turning 50 here soon so I figure after 46 years of riding, I'm going for what I want. Price was not the priority. Geometry and build components was. Didn't care how long it took, I just wanted it to be right.

From there it was just a matter researching various builders and confirming why they chose these certain drop outs... why they fashioned their chainstays in this manner.. and so on

When the philosophical approach matched my own, the decision was made.

[homagesilkhope]

Out of your list my choice would easily be Max at 333Fab. He's a really nice guy, has been building bikes for a long time and I loved the work he did for Hampsten.

Yep. NMRT's very good list somehow omitted 333fab and Max seems to have fallen away from the discussion since. I note that Max's rim-brake, butted ti road frame is priced at $3150, which puts it second (in NMRT's list) only to No. 22's Great Divide in terms of affordability.

As another data point and - as others have said - without disrespect to any other builder in this thread, I've owned the Brunk/Ryun/DoomRides Hampsten GP Ti fixed roadie (built by Max) for a couple of years now, and it is one extremely beautiful, awesome ride.

[oldpotatoe]

I don't want to pile on...a lot of good stuff's been said, mainly don't underestimate the value of the local builder.

I do have to ask 2 questions, though:
1) Why are you going custom? I certainly don't poo-poo custom...I've done this twice now, since the Bicycle Quarterly recipe isn't available off the shelf.
2) Why Titanium? I've never had titanium, but is it is really that much lighter than light steel? I should search...but I'm not sure that it is.

I have titanium(Moots-actually have 2) and steel(Merckx MXL, daily driver and Corsa and a Ciocc). The Moots isn't that much lighter but I like the 'withstand the next nuke holocaust' qualities of it. yes, steel can be too, but can also rust(and if you look at Stainless, it still can a bit but the $ is the same or more than Ti).

When it's wet, I ride the Moots. I think if ya gotta have one frame that will last forever and never degrade in any way..ti is a great choice. IMHO.

BTW-I buy and use/ride nothing based on weight.

And for right below, "I can't say the frames are 'better' but they do mean more to me."..That's it in a nutshell, IMHO..'mean more to me'...for me too.

'Means a lot', means you ride it a lot..and that's the idea, isn't it? To 'ride lots'..with thanks to Eddy.

[Climb01742]

There's the frame. Then there's the experience of getting to the frame. Part of the lure of going custom is the journey you go on with the builder. It's so personal what each part of the equation (frame+experience) is worth.

A big part of why my Pegoretti's and my Kirk have extra value to me is that I've met each builder, went back and forth with each, and as a result, the end result has more meaning to me.

I can't say the frames are 'better' but they do mean more to me. Just part of the equation.

[fuzzalow]

Any of the bikes listed in your OP are more than fine. Pick one, don't agonize over the choice, don't overthink it, don't look back. Decide and go.

There are so many unknowns here based on what you know and how you would approach (there's that word again) dealing with the whole experience on working through a custom bike - there's no way I, or anyone, can say anything that's pertinent and useful to you.

There's variables chasing variables here. You will be OK if you have a go doing it with your head on straight. But even what I just said there is meaningless with me knowing what you know to offer up anything other than platitude.

Good luck.

[Tim Porter]

Any of the bikes listed in your OP are more than fine. Pick one, don't agonize over the choice, don't overthink it, don't look back. Decide and go.

There are so many unknowns here based on what you know and how you would approach (there's that word again) dealing with the whole experience on working through a custom bike - there's no way I, or anyone, can say anything that's pertinent and useful to you.

There's variables chasing variables here. You will be OK if you have a go doing it with your head on straight. But even what I just said there is meaningless with me knowing what you know to offer up anything other than platitude.

Good luck.

Fuzz, in the last sentence of the last full paragraph, don't you mean to say "withOUT me knowing . . . ."? See, people read what you write! Tim

[veloduffer]

Do you know the geometry that you want? If not, you may want to choose a more local builder to get fitted.

I got fitted by Richard Sachs when I got bike. I have also got custom by phone and email by Jim Kish. But I knew basically what I wanted in a bike. It is fun to meet the builder. But a good business man communicates well - Jim was great asking questions on prhe small particulars. And Richard was always keeping me abreast of the queue and when he started my bike.

From some previous posts, I will note a few things:
Carbon- not all carbon is dead feeling. Having owned carbon since it came out in the 90s, some frames arent dead feeling like Parlee.

Titanium weight- if you get oversized tubes, it can be light as carbon. My Ericksen weighs within a couple of ounces of my Parlee (56cm) at 15 lbs.


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[soulspinner]

i have no idea whether "buying local" really offers any advantages, though i certainly get why folks are strongly encouraging that. I don't know because i've never ordered a custom frame from a local builder.

I have however ordered two custom frames from two different builders, neither of whom were local and neither of whom i have ever even met. Didn't seem to negatively impact the designing/ordering process, and certainly didn't seem to negatively impact the final product. Well, i guess there were a couple healthy shipping fees that could have been avoided if i'd bought local...but local sales tax would've made that a wash, so nevermind.

But, since one of those frames was by a guy on op's short list, i will say that based on my experience with carl strong, i wouldn't hesitate to recommend him. highly. The bike he built for me is stunningly badass in every way, fits like a glove, performs like a sports car, looks gorgeous... But the process of doing business with carl is quite possibly one of the most satisfying exercises in commerce i've ever engaged in. The guy is a professional in every sense of the word.

+1

[pncguy]

I hadn't even thought about sales tax. Suppose I'm in for a $6k bike. My local sales tax is about 8.5%. That's $510!!!

Of course, we all know that everyone in these forums pays their sales tax even when they buy something from out of state, right? Otherwise, Colorado would have forced Amazon to start collecting sales tax for them.

[bob heinatz]

I hadn't even thought about sales tax. Suppose I'm in for a $6k bike. My local sales tax is about 8.5%. That's $510!!!

Of course, we all know that everyone in these forums pays their sales tax even when they buy something from out of state, right? Otherwise, Colorado would have forced Amazon to start collecting sales tax for them.

You can also add Kelly Bedford to this list. Master with all tubing.

[soulspinner]

If I were spending my own money I'd be thinking Strong or Holland.

dave

If my steel Strong is any indication, he will knock it out of the park. Impressed by Holland as well. The dropouts, head tube internally turned and tt cable routing has a ti insert for ease of use. These are practical solutions to things that give some of us ham fisted mechanics fits............

[pncguy]

I've been doing more talking, reading, thinking, and hand-wringing. I've now narrowed it down to two: Strong and Eriksen. At this point, I think I'm looking at shades of gray. Either will be excellent and for basically the same price.

Does anyone have comments on just Strong or Eriksen?

[Tony T]

Buy 2 frames :)

But seriously, if you haven't yet, contact them both and get an estimate of the lead time (this may help you make your decision)

[pncguy]

Buy 2 frames :)

But seriously, if you haven't yet, contact them both and get an estimate of the lead time (this may help you make your decision)

And write up the buying experiences for a popular magazine and get the second one paid for, right? Ah, that would be nice.

This question is sort of like asking who's the better cyclist, Merckx or Hinault...

[cnighbor1]

go with the new larger bottom bracket
Davidson cycles in seattle builds great Ti frames

[David Kirk]

Call them both and see who you feel most comfortable with and then pull the trigger. You can't go wrong.

dave

[pncguy]

Call them both and see who you feel most comfortable with and then pull the trigger. You can't go wrong.

dave

Thanks, Dave. Coming from you, this is more helpful than you know!

Steve (the OP)

[Tony T]

96 posts….

We will require pictures when the build is complete! :)

[nmrt]

Great choices -- Strong or Eriksen. The same as mine as I am deciding between the two too. And this is something because I live only a few walking minutes from Mosaic.

Be sure to call Eriksen and be prepared for a surprise news.

[572cv]

Great choices -- Strong or Eriksen. The same as mine as I am deciding between the two too. And this is something because I live only a few walking minutes from Mosaic.

Be sure to call Eriksen and be prepared for a surprise news.

The calling up and talking part is actually pretty useful. People make connections from reading/learning, seeing, and hearing. You want to know that you were heard with the build. You want to connect with the builder, and he/she wants to connect with you, to do the best job.

With regard to the surprise news, it shouldn't be a surprise to this forum. Velotel noted at the beginning of last summer that Kent was going to transition his business to his team, i.e. retire. I don't know how quickly this will happen, but I expect that a deliberate process has been underway for a while now. When I heard that last summer, I ordered my bike. During our conversations, Kent said that he would still be in the background for a good while, making sure that the process he used was the foundation for client interaction and proper sizing, but that Brad was going to become the lead at Kent Eriksen Cycles. Kent and Katie are going to ride more! Cool. My feeling is that as long as it says Eriksen on the head tube, it will be an Eriksen. Which is good, because these are just wonderful, wonderful bikes.

[Clancy]

Currently have two custom bikes, one SS and the other Ti, both bikes are simply great, I love them. The SS was made by Dave Anderson, the Ti by Lauren Trout, Saila Bikes. Both experiences were great.

With that said, I cannot imagine going through a dealer to get a custom bike made. Seems once a builder becomes big enough to have a network of dealers that so much of the experience is lost. Plus you're paying the dealer mark-up. Why?

And, I know people rant and rave over Moots but sorry, not me. They're great bikes, but there are so many builders that are doing every bit as good of work and you don't have to pay the Moots premium. Overvalued. Yes I said it, overvalued. Great bikes, yes, but better than a Strong or Eriksen? No way. But cost more? Why? Name?

[Clancy]

go with the new larger bottom bracket
Davidson cycles in seattle builds great Ti frames

Why larger BB

So many things right with the good ol' standard 68

[oldpotatoe]

I've been doing more talking, reading, thinking, and hand-wringing. I've now narrowed it down to two: Strong and Eriksen. At this point, I think I'm looking at shades of gray. Either will be excellent and for basically the same price.

Does anyone have comments on just Strong or Eriksen?

Haven't waded thru 90 some posys but have you talked to Jim at Vecchio's? Not Strong or Eriksen but he has bikes you can actually ride, demo..'may' help you decide.

BTW-Merckx.

[pncguy]

I would also consider Jim Kish and Carl Strong. I've had many a Ti frame and they are also top builders. I currently own a Kish cross and Eriksen road.


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I just was browsing your "my bikes" page. That's quite a collection. You don't own a Strong, so what pushes you to him?

[pncguy]

Haven't waded thru 90 some posys but have you talked to Jim at Vecchio's? Not Strong or Eriksen but he has bikes you can actually ride, demo..'may' help you decide.

BTW-Merckx.

I went into Vecchio's a while back and talked to them a bit about steel, specifically Gunnar or Waterford. I haven't been back because I'm leaning toward the working-with-the-builder vibe. A Moots from Vecchio's would probably be just fine if not a bit more expensive and the LBS support would be nice, but that direction isn't "speaking to me." A Gunnar or Waterford would obviously be a lower cost option. We'll see.

[joosttx]

I would go with an Eriksen if those are your two choices. Those bikes are dialed.

[oldpotatoe]

I went into Vecchio's a while back and talked to them a bit about steel, specifically Gunnar or Waterford. I haven't been back because I'm leaning toward the working-with-the-builder vibe. A Moots from Vecchio's would probably be just fine if not a bit more expensive and the LBS support would be nice, but that direction isn't "speaking to me." A Gunnar or Waterford would obviously be a lower cost option. We'll see.

Except for the 9 feet of snow they have there..go up to Steamboat and yak with Butch..and get a tour of the Moots factory. :D

[weisan]

David Kirk's advice is still good. Talk to the frame builders you are interested in, go with your gut feeling.

The truth is, there are many, many happy customers with the different reputable frame builders out there... occasionally there are oops and uh-ohs, that comes with the territory for any handmade stuff, we are not machines. But the difference is, when bad things do happen, how was it dealt with. Again, that can vary too.

There's the craftsman side of things and there's the business side of things. Some do better than others depending on background, training and personality.

We look for the best and the perfect always when there's no such thing.

Again, pick one that resonates with you personally. And once you commit, take the personal responsibility of your decision and choice, embrace the risk, manage your own expectations.

[Tony T]

The deciding factor for me would be the lead-time. If Builder A could deliver by April, and Builder B by October, then the decision foe me would be A, but if there were a difference of 2 months or less between the two, then lead-time would not be a factor for me.

[tigoat]

Geez what else are you looking for from us? Toss a coin to see if you can make a decision from that. Life is too short to waste more time agonizing over something that is supposed to be fun. If for whatever reason one custom frame does not work out well then buy another one. With that said, whoever will build your titanium bike, make sure those water bottle mounts are TIG welded and not pop riveted regardless, as those rivnuts are cheap and cheesy and not acceptable for a high dollar custom frame.

On a different subject since you mentioned steel frames, if you are looking for a fast and responsive bike for road riding and racing, I would stay away from titanium altogether. You probably wouldn’t believe how many custom titanium bikes I have had over years, and I even lost count myself, and I can tell you from experience that titanium bikes are super boring, as they feel slow and unresponsive regardless of geometry and builders secretive building skills despite being butter smooth. Titanium bikes would be great for touring and off-road gravel grinding. If I want a fast and responsive road bike, then I would get a well-designed stainless bike instead, especially with one that is brazed instead of welded. My stainless bikes are obviously heavier than my titanium bikes but I can tell you that my stainless bikes feel lighter and most importantly feel more responsive and alive when I climb hard. There is a big difference of an actual weight versus perceived weight of a bike out of the road. You really need to own both and ride them back and forth for many miles in order to appreciate one over another.

[happycampyer]

<snip>

And, I know people rant and rave over Moots but sorry, not me. They're great bikes, but there are so many builders that are doing every bit as good of work and you don't have to pay the Moots premium. Overvalued. Yes I said it, overvalued. Great bikes, yes, but better than a Strong or Eriksen? No way. But cost more? Why? Name?The reason why Moots is able to charge what they do is simple: they make an extremely high quality product, and one that holds its value (see the dozens of threads on the topic in the archives).

Why is this relevant? Because a Moots will hold its value better than an Eriksen, and far better than a Strong. Is this "fair" given that those are "every bit as good"? Not sure there's an answer for that, but it's the reality. See how some people struggle to sell their used custom bikes in the classifieds and on ebay.

And this is coming from someone with a number of custom ti bikes, including an Eriksen-built Hampsten.

[oldpotatoe]

Currently have two custom bikes, one SS and the other Ti, both bikes are simply great, I love them. The SS was made by Dave Anderson, the Ti by Lauren Trout, Saila Bikes. Both experiences were great.

With that said, I cannot imagine going through a dealer to get a custom bike made. Seems once a builder becomes big enough to have a network of dealers that so much of the experience is lost. Plus you're paying the dealer mark-up. Why?

And, I know people rant and rave over Moots but sorry, not me. They're great bikes, but there are so many builders that are doing every bit as good of work and you don't have to pay the Moots premium. Overvalued. Yes I said it, overvalued. Great bikes, yes, but better than a Strong or Eriksen? No way. But cost more? Why? Name?

A dealer network sells bikes. Demo bikes, people who are knowledgeable in the shop. You 'may' be able to talk to a builder, but if he's busy, maybe not. Will you be able to ride a demo Eriksen or Strong? Unlikely.

Add most if not all Moots dealers have an in store fit service, Like Joe at Vecchio's. Even if you came in with a fit sheet, I'd want Joe to confirm it. Because if the brought in one wasn't right, and we had the bike made, and you didn't like it for whatever reason, we would eat it. A builder direct guy..not.

A LOT of the frames mentioned here are builder direct. Double margin is what they are getting, so the price is lower. No additional dealer markup. What do you get for that? A demo bike, a place to talk to with any problem, etc.

PLUS most of the builders mentioned are in the 50-100 frames per year. It's a different structure. Mid size frame builder VS small, one or 2 person builder.

If anything, I think a Eriksen is over priced, considering his factory set up and dealer direct system. Say it costs any maker $1200 to make a frame..40 point margin..$2000 to the dealer, who sells it for $3300 or $2000 to the consumer. BUT small, direct makers are getting a 60 point+ margin. $1200 cost-sell for $3300 or so. Plus it doesn't cost them any more to do custom. Everything is made to order. For Moots, it does. Different 'structures', systems.

BTW-Kent no longer slings the torch there..Brad runs the show, he may have actually bought the place..I donno. I'll add Strong too.. $3200 for a ti frame. Moots is like $3400 for a Vamoots(not sure, been out of the shop)..

AND I'll add, Eriksen and Strongs as well as many mentioned(Mosaic, FireFly, Seven, etc)are all very nice frames.

IMHO, of course.

[gomango]

A dealer network sells bikes. Demo bikes, people who are knowledgeable in the shop. You 'may' be able to talk to a builder, but if he's busy, maybe not. Will you be able to ride a demo Eriksen or Strong? Unlikely.

Add most if not all Moots dealers have an in store fit service, Like Joe at Vecchio's. Even if you came in with a fit sheet, I'd want Joe to confirm it. Because if the brought in one wasn't right, and we had the bike made, and you didn't like it for whatever reason, we would eat it. A builder direct guy..not.

A LOT of the frames mentioned here are builder direct. Double margin is what they are getting, so the price is lower. No additional dealer markup. What do you get for that? A demo bike, a place to talk to with any problem, etc.

PLUS most of the builders mentioned are in the 50-100 frames per year. It's a different structure. Mid size frame builder VS small, one or 2 person builder.

If anything, I think a Eriksen is over priced, considering his factory set up and dealer direct system. Say it costs any maker $1200 to make a frame..40 point margin..$2000 to the dealer, who sells it for $3300 or $2000 to the consumer. BUT small, direct makers are getting a 60 point+ margin. $1200 cost-sell for $3300 or so. Plus it doesn't cost them any more to do custom. Everything is made to order. For Moots, it does. Different 'structures', systems.

BTW-Kent no longer slings the torch there..Brad runs the show, he may have actually bought the place..I donno. I'll add Strong too.. $3200 for a ti frame. Moots is like $3400 for a Vamoots(not sure, been out of the shop)..

AND I'll add, Eriksen and Strongs as well as many mentioned(Mosaic, FireFly, Seven, etc)are all very nice frames.

IMHO, of course.

All good points.

It's easy for me to make a decision about a Moots. The time will come after we get our boys through college.

I live two minutes away from a Moots dealer in St. Paul. The owner is an expert fitter and their mechanics are superb. After the frameset arrives I know they will do an exceptional job with the build.

Might it cost more?

Likely, but the whole shop experience is worth it to me. If I have a problem, they'll make it right.

[roguedog]

@op. I get the Moots thing but my prob is their geo doesn't work for me and it kinda rubs me wrong that I pay even more $$ to get the geo I want/need than if I just went with a builder. And I kinda lose out on the builder experience. The former is more important to me than the latter but the latter is kinda cool.

@happycamper - wow that's a really interesting perspective since I know you've ridden lots of really really nice bikes. Were you just mentioning stanles to get the same kinda non-maintenance quality as TI or is there something diff about stainless over other steel?

(sorry if this takes this thread off topic)

[Kirk007]

I can tell you from experience that titanium bikes are super boring, as they feel slow and unresponsive regardless of geometry and builders secretive building skills despite being butter smooth.

This week I road my relatively new to me Spectrum super ti back to back with my Pegoretti Marcelo. Both Campy 11 Chorus, both Shamal tubulars, contact points identical to the millimeter and my experience is quite different than yours. Blindfolded I wouldn't be able to tell them apart, and I don't think I've ever heard anyone accuse a Peg Marcelo of being super boring, slow and unresponsive.

Not blindfolded my perception is the Peg is a tiny, tiny bit stiffer and the Spectrum smoother. Both feel equally "quick" in handling, if anything the Spectrum is a bit faster in this respect. The Peg seems a tiny, tiny bit more instant in its jump but again, if blindfolded - I wouldn't perceive this so some on this forum would tell me its all in my head.

I had a Lynskey ti 29er and a Cielo steel 29er - the Lynskey felt really stiff, the Cielo is butter smooth. Both were very responsive and neither boring. I still have the Cielo as for me its a nice, more compliant ride.

My conclusion is that material matters yes, but so does the builder and their choices of geometry and tubing. And for that matter so does the rider.

[oldpotatoe]

Geez what else are you looking for from us? Toss a coin to see if you can make a decision from that. Life is too short to waste more time agonizing over something that is supposed to be fun. If for whatever reason one custom frame does not work out well then buy another one. With that said, whoever will build your titanium bike, make sure those water bottle mounts are TIG welded and not pop riveted regardless, as those rivnuts are cheap and cheesy and not acceptable for a high dollar custom frame.

On a different subject since you mentioned steel frames, if you are looking for a fast and responsive bike for road riding and racing, I would stay away from titanium altogether. You probably wouldn’t believe how many custom titanium bikes I have had over years, and I even lost count myself, and I can tell you from experience that titanium bikes are super boring, as they feel slow and unresponsive regardless of geometry and builders secretive building skills despite being butter smooth. Titanium bikes would be great for touring and off-road gravel grinding. If I want a fast and responsive road bike, then I would get a well-designed stainless bike instead, especially with one that is brazed instead of welded. My stainless bikes are obviously heavier than my titanium bikes but I can tell you that my stainless bikes feel lighter and most importantly feel more responsive and alive when I climb hard. There is a big difference of an actual weight versus perceived weight of a bike out of the road. You really need to own both and ride them back and forth for many miles in order to appreciate one over another.


You forgot either YMMV or IMHO or ATMO...:cool:

My experience with a brazed Waterford Stainless R-33 and my Moots Vamoots is exactly the opposite.

IMHO, of course.

[Black Dog]

You forgot either YMMV or IMHO or ATMO...:cool:

My experience with a brazed Waterford Stainless R-33 and my Moots Vamoots is exactly the opposite.

IMHO, of course.

Yup, I agree with this. A boring bike can be made with any material as can an exciting bike however these things are defined.

[572cv]

The reason why Moots is able to charge what they do is simple: they make an extremely high quality product, and one that holds its value (see the dozens of threads on the topic in the archives).

Why is this relevant? Because a Moots will hold its value better than an Eriksen, and far better than a Strong. Is this "fair" given that those are "every bit as good"? Not sure there's an answer for that, but it's the reality. See how some people struggle to sell their used custom bikes in the classifieds and on ebay.

And this is coming from someone with a number of custom ti bikes, including an Eriksen-built Hampsten.

It is a very good point on value retention. If the intent is to have a really high end ti bike to ride and then possibly re-sell, Moots or its ilk, would be the direction to take, no question. They make great bikes. The frame will be better known generally, and at a given size point, will fit more potential buyers. It's like a Porsche.

An Eriksen or Strong or .... is made for one cyclist. It is made to have certain ride characteristics, for example. It is, in a sense, an indulgence for that rider. But in its particular focus, it achieves, at it's best, a fine responsiveness to the rider. And the buyer of such a bike is of course aware that selling it will not be as easy! There is going to be a smaller universe of compatible buyers, let alone interested buyers, if nothing else.

We all have different physical expressions of homo sapiens, but a goal we might all share is to bring joy to the act of cycling. To that end, the custom frame is going to be the right choice for some cyclists at a certain point in life.

[jr59]

This week I road my relatively new to me Spectrum super ti back to back with my Pegoretti Marcelo. Both Campy 11 Chorus, both Shamal tubulars, contact points identical to the millimeter and my experience is quite different than yours. Blindfolded I wouldn't be able to tell them apart, and I don't think I've ever heard anyone accuse a Peg Marcelo of being super boring, slow and unresponsive.

Not blindfolded my perception is the Peg is a tiny, tiny bit stiffer and the Spectrum smoother. Both feel equally "quick" in handling, if anything the Spectrum is a bit faster in this respect. The Peg seems a tiny, tiny bit more instant in its jump but again, if blindfolded - I wouldn't perceive this so some on this forum would tell me its all in my head.

I had a Lynskey ti 29er and a Cielo steel 29er - the Lynskey felt really stiff, the Cielo is butter smooth. Both were very responsive and neither boring. I still have the Cielo as for me its a nice, more compliant ride.

My conclusion is that material matters yes, but so does the builder and their choices of geometry and tubing. And for that matter so does the rider.

I guess this means you like it?

[happycampyer]

It is a very good point on value retention. If the intent is to have a really high end ti bike to ride and then possibly re-sell, Moots or its ilk, would be the direction to take, no question. They make great bikes. The frame will be better known generally, and at a given size point, will fit more potential buyers. It's like a Porsche.

An Eriksen or Strong or .... is made for one cyclist. It is made to have certain ride characteristics, for example. It is, in a sense, an indulgence for that rider. But in its particular focus, it achieves, at it's best, a fine responsiveness to the rider. And the buyer of such a bike is of course aware that selling it will not be as easy! There is going to be a smaller universe of compatible buyers, let alone interested buyers, if nothing else.

We all have different physical expressions of homo sapiens, but a goal we might all share is to bring joy to the act of cycling. To that end, the custom frame is going to be the right choice for some cyclists at a certain point in life.I agree very much with these sentiments. For me, my custom ti bikes have struck a balance in terms of fit, ride quality, handling etc. that my various Moots couldn't/didn't. But in many ways I feel I needed to own those frames in order to understand what I wanted done differently. And not every custom is a success. One reads fairly often how XYZ builder overbuilt a frame, but I wonder whether, more often than not, it was due to the input of the customer—i.e., would that customer have bought an RSL intead of a Vamoots, only to realize later he should've gotten the Vamoots? I myself went down a similar path.

[Iansir]

Lead time weighed heavily into my custom decision, so went with Seven. Frame was done in 2 weeks (mid Nov)! Looked hard at Moots but the Seven was more easily customizable.

[Jimbo251]

But, since one of those frames was by a guy on OP's short list, I will say that based on my experience with Carl Strong, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend him. Highly. The bike he built for me is stunningly badass in every way, fits like a glove, performs like a sports car, looks gorgeous... but the process of doing business with Carl is quite possibly one of the most satisfying exercises in commerce I've ever engaged in. The guy is a professional in every sense of the word.

This ^.
Carl Strong is the best of the best. Couldn't have said it better myself.

[soulspinner]

this ^.
Carl strong is the best of the best. Couldn't have said it better myself.

+1000

[Mikej]

Stainless (like Reynolds 953) can hang with Ti, it seems:

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7/k4drd/Bicycles/ReynoldsMaterialsComparisonChartxsm.jpg

I'm not sure if anybody posted on this, but every time I see a chart comparing the stiffness or cycles to failure of tube sets such as this, I always wonder what the specifics are. They never list the diameters or wall thicknesses-examples would be smaller Tim tube diameters would most likely be more flesh? However- I know my Erikesen mtb has a 1-3/4" downtube- pretty sure that there is no equivalent 963 tube to compare that to-just wondering if I'm missing something???

[Kirk007]

I guess this means you like it?

I do indeed. Took awhile to sort out the drop and reach - different bar and stem. Now the weather just needs to cooperate so I can get some longer rides in. Although I was able to fit some Portland Bike Works road fenders on yesterday with 23s, ( the vittoria corsa 25s were a hair too tall) so that will help wit getting her on the road more.

Relevance to the OP's Discussion: talk to your builder about even the smallest details, like provisions for fenders if you ride in the wet.

[fa63]

I'm not sure if anybody posted on this, but every time I see a chart comparing the stiffness or cycles to failure of tube sets such as this, I always wonder what the specifics are. They never list the diameters or wall thicknesses-examples would be smaller Tim tube diameters would most likely be more flesh? However- I know my Erikesen mtb has a 1-3/4" downtube- pretty sure that there is no equivalent 963 tube to compare that to-just wondering if I'm missing something???



Stiffness (i.e., elastic modulus, or E) as shown in that chart is a material property.

Bending stiffness is given by the product of E with the tube's moment of inertia, or I, which is a function of tube size and wall thickness.

[pncguy]

Geez what else are you looking for from us?
Actually, I was hoping for exactly what I got!
If for whatever reason one custom frame does not work out well then buy another one.
… a Moots will hold its value better than an Eriksen, and far better than a Strong.
Perhaps I’m unusual, but I don’t have the resources to buy another frame if the first one doesn’t work out. My intention is to buy one bike and ride it for the next 20 years, so a redo isn't an option, and resale isn't important to me.
A dealer network sells bikes. Demo bikes, people who are knowledgeable in the shop. You 'may' be able to talk to a builder, but if he's busy, maybe not. Will you be able to ride a demo Eriksen or Strong? Unlikely.
Add most if not all Moots dealers have an in store fit service, Like Joe at Vecchio's. Even if you came in with a fit sheet, I'd want Joe to confirm it. Because if the brought in one wasn't right, and we had the bike made, and you didn't like it for whatever reason, we would eat it. A builder direct guy..not.
A LOT of the frames mentioned here are builder direct. Double margin is what they are getting, so the price is lower. No additional dealer markup. What do you get for that? A demo bike, a place to talk to with any problem, etc.
I am weighing the benefits of ordering through a LBS seriously. This is pretty important for someone who might want support during and later.
BTW-Kent no longer slings the torch there..Brad runs the show, he may have actually bought the place..I donno.
I was under the impression that Kent hadn’t been welding for a long time and Brad is the best welder in the business, so Kent got him to do the welding. I have also heard the “surprise” that people have mentioned above - although not explicitly - and yes, it seems like Brad’s shop now, for better or worse. I never spoke to Kent, so I can’t compare.

In the end, I think Dave Kirk’s advice has been the most valuable. And, by the way, after talking to HIM, if I definitely wanted steel in a fillet braze or lugged, I would have already put my deposit down. Dave is a great guy, very personable on the phone, happy to talk, and we got distracted for about 15 minutes talking about skiing 58” of new snow at Bridger. THAT made me smile.

Thanks for all the feedback and PMs. Most have been very helpful.

I am now sleeping on my decision to make sure it feels right, and rechecking all my facts and impressions, and going back to check all the stock bikes that I've rejected to make sure they won't be what I want. After I do put my deposit down, I'll let you know.

And keep an eye out for a photo of the finished product. In the end, that's the most fun, isn't it?

[malcolm]

I am biased, but we all are.

Jim has vast experience in ti; builds exclusively in ti for the last few (or more) years; has taught many ti builders; does all the work himself; is fast and professional; and is a very nice person, very easy to work with.

Kish Fabrication (http://www.kishbike.com/bikes/road/)

Titanium Frame (Straight Gauge Titanium Tubing): $2,950
Titanium SL Frame (Reynolds 3/2.5 Butted Titanium Tubing): $3,300
Enve 2.0 Fork: $400.00

I am not posting these prices to indicate that Kish is "bargain basement" in any way (he most definitely is not), but rather to seriously wonder what, if anything, an additional $1,000 to $2,000 :eek: (for db ti + ENVE 2.0) actually provides....

Or, put another way, a Kish db frame, an ENVE 2.0 fork, and $1K-$2K wheels. :)

I'm late to the game, but I'll second Kish. I've got a 27.5 mtn bike from him and it's flawless. He teaches TIG at one of the frame building classes.

I've owned several custom frames and honestly only had positive experiences, Kirk, Zanc, Kellogg. Kish was also very good. He'll communicate when he says he will and will deliver what you expect on time. An all round decent guy.

[veloduffer]

I just was browsing your "my bikes" page. That's quite a collection. You don't own a Strong, so what pushes you to him?

I've seen his work and through the years I have consistently heard many good things. He's been around for quite a while and was really known for his steel frames years ago. Like Kish, Strong is not as famous as others but has stayed in business through word-of-mouth/reputation.

Kish and Strong prices are reasonably priced too, i.e. you can a custom titanium frame from them for the price of a stock Moots.

[pncguy]

For anyone in the market, I should mention that Max Kullaway, who has built frames for Merlin, Seven, Hampsten, and Davidson, has his own company 333Fab (www.333fab.com), and his lead time as of yesterday is about a month.

It looks to me as if his pricing and quality are right up there with all the better builders we've been talking about, although he hasn't won Best TIG Welds at NAHBS three years in a row like Brad Bingham has at Eriksen.

I'm the OP on this thread and have no relationship with Max beyond my shopping for a frame builder, so please don't view this as some sort of ad. It is really just a PSA for a quick delivery time.

Here's a nice article on Max from two years ago: http://www.bikehugger.com/posts/now-open-davidson-kullaway-custom-bicycles/, and an older one: http://www.thebicyclestory.com/2012/10/max-kullaway/