View Full Version : How to prod a painter
Plum Hill
12-09-2016, 09:23 PM
After a few phone conversations with a well-respected painter, I sent a frame off to be refinished. Only instructions from me were to match what's there. Ballpark price quoted; no money exchanged hands.
That was early June. Since then, nothing.
We've exchanged numerous emails. Some have offered "reasons" for not moving on the job.
Five months in I was assured the frame would be shipped in a week. That was over a month ago.
Last week I emailed again. Returned email was short and curt; it could be viewed as positive or a blow-off, depending on how one reads it. One week later, nothing. Nada. Zip.
I'm running out of patience and time.
The guy is 1,000 miles away. I can't exactly hop in the truck and drive over.
Any constructive suggestions?
Jeff N.
12-09-2016, 09:27 PM
Keep calling. Painters get backed up, for whatever reasons, but I'd keep calling.
ultraman6970
12-09-2016, 09:34 PM
Who's the guy? just asking.
rallizes
12-09-2016, 09:43 PM
Who's the guy? just asking.
yes
Plum Hill
12-09-2016, 10:17 PM
Who's the guy? just asking.
I'm not saying.
purpurite
12-09-2016, 10:33 PM
As an artist and painter, we all get behind, and most work takes a lot longer than we will estimate. Honestly, there aren't many things you can do other than consistently, but politely, keep in contact with the artist. Don't get angry or aggressive, that just makes it less likely you will get what you want.
Keep trying.
John H.
12-09-2016, 10:45 PM
If his last name sounds like kitten you might be in trouble.
If his last name sounds like sailor you might be in double trouble.
cadence90
12-10-2016, 12:23 AM
As long as you are still hoping that this fellow will complete the work, I would suggest not calling him:
1) One never knows what mood, etc. someone is in when calling.
2) Calling may exacerbate the situation, if the fellow starts to feel hounded or aggrieved.
3) There is no real documentation of a phone call.
I would suggest keeping all correspondence in email form, for now, and of course retain all copies sent/received.
6 months have passed, so I completely disagree that "the artist" has any legitimate excuses at this point. He/she simply sounds just as unprofessional and discourteous as Mr. Litton did in the other thread. There is absolutely no excuse for this kind of conduct from a professional.
It may be time to ask for your frame back, and to then find someone more worthy of your (and all our) time and money.
stephenmarklay
12-10-2016, 06:49 AM
As long as you are still hoping that this fellow will complete the work, I would suggest not calling him:
1) One never knows what mood, etc. someone is in when calling.
2) Calling may exacerbate the situation, if the fellow starts to feel hounded or aggrieved.
3) There is no real documentation of a phone call.
I would suggest keeping all correspondence in email form, for now, and of course retain all copies sent/received.
6 months have passed, so I completely disagree that "the artist" has any legitimate excuses at this point. He/she simply sounds just as unprofessional and discourteous as Mr. Litton did in the other thread. There is absolutely no excuse for this kind of conduct from a professional.
It may be time to ask for your frame back, and to then find someone more worthy of your (and all our) time and money.
Not knowing what has been said during your conversations with him I agree with cadence90.
Your giving him to many excuses because he is “well-respected” for his work. What if he were just some guy you pulled out of a hat? Would you feel the same?
What happens when you get back your frame and it’s not right? Do you think he will be attentive to you then?
I say cut bait.
eddief
12-10-2016, 07:39 AM
then you could tell us who not to have paint our bikes. Maybe his last name sounds like "jerk off?" That's it! Joe Jerkoff.
William
12-10-2016, 08:17 AM
I would suggest keeping all correspondence in email form, for now, and of course retain all copies sent/received.
6 months have passed, so I completely disagree that "the artist" has any legitimate excuses at this point. He/she simply sounds just as unprofessional and discourteous as Mr. Litton did in the other thread. There is absolutely no excuse for this kind of conduct from a professional.
It may be time to ask for your frame back, and to then find someone more worthy of your (and all our) time and money.
I have to agree. Not all "artists" make good business people, but when you hang a shingle out as a business then the "artist" excuse really doesn't hold water. Sitting on your frame for Half a year with little to no communication shouldn't be acceptable. Short of family emergency or personal health problems there is zero excuse for this type of service (or lack there of). IMO, there are too many other painters in the biz who do great work, communicate, and have acceptable turn around times.
William
merckx
12-10-2016, 08:38 AM
This will not end well even if it does. I would ask to have the frameset returned.
Macadamia
12-10-2016, 08:51 AM
tell us where he is and have a forum member go check up on it. He will not escape the long arm of The Paceline(.net)!
no but honestly maybe just ask for the frame back? As others said, I can't think of any legitimate excuse, outside of hiding some terrible medical condition
54ny77
12-10-2016, 08:52 AM
In my retirement I think I'll become a bike painter.
Based on horror stories read here and experienced personally, I know I could pick up a few clients here & there.
Will offer a webcam of where your frame sits in the queue. Left to right, the left side is closest to being worked on. Doesn't get more real-time than that.
Book your orders now, no deposit required! :banana:
p.s. oh it might be several years before I get to that point, hope you're not in a rush......:p
ultraman6970
12-10-2016, 08:59 AM
The reason I was asking the name is to help the other guys, but well...
The other thing is... it is so simple to just send an email saying, "dude I'm backed up, I will try to get your stuff at the booth by whatever, sorry for the delay"... u get the guy off your neck even if not true but the dude will be quiet and won't think that bad off the other party. Give dates is putting a string around your neck but helps to the "hurry up" process...
I know there's good painters and the super good ones always get backed up, but if what you want is just single color and decals, u have a big backyard it is possible to accomplish all by your self and don't deal with this situations at all. The technique to paint a bike is complicated....in my case i been trying to get mr bell's quality for a while... I do not have the skills yet, maybe never will, but for simple stuff? is better deal with that yourself you know. U might even have a lot more talent than anybody for painting and you dont even know it :), U might learn a few things in the process trying to figure it out how to paint aswell.
At this point I would have asked my frame back aswell...or maybe even go to pick it up because i would not trust the guy anymore.
fuzzalow
12-10-2016, 09:26 AM
I am no shill for the builder & painter custom bike sub-industry. But as a client you have painted (!) yourself into a corner with expectations more akin to learned mass market consumerism than the ways of sole proprietorship.
Every one of these gripe threads all center on your dissatisfaction pertaining to turnaround time. Stop. You hanging around here should give you insight as to what to expect, even if it is not your first rodeo.
The thing to keep in mind is has this painter (or builder) ever failed on delivering a commission? Because if it is concerning delivery time, even with a 6-month variability, I am of the mind to simply not worry about it and let it run. Never take on a restore (which is what a repaint basically entails) project with time pressure already built in from day 1.
You might have other bikes to ride - consider this one on the shelf for however long it takes to get it back and rebuilt.
In fairness, some of these guys are not the best communicators and they will often cave to your nagging just to avoid conflict while digging a deeper hole in telling you what you wanted to hear. And in fairness to you, you were told things and given estimates that might have been very optimistic and through the mishegas of the painters own process makes for a delivery date that had no hope of being hit. But here in the custom bike sub-industry, you are less a customer and more a client - deal collaboratively with this guy and save your entitled consumerist for the corporate chain stores.
Jeff N.
12-10-2016, 09:41 AM
If his last name sounds like kitten you might be in trouble.
If his last name sounds like sailor you might be in double trouble.
...and if it sounds like hell, you should have no problem.
cadence90
12-10-2016, 02:09 PM
The reason I was asking the name is to help the other guys, but well...
I think that until the issue is resolved, it is better to keep identities private.
I am no shill for the builder & painter custom bike sub-industry. But as a client you have painted (!) yourself into a corner with expectations more akin to learned mass market consumerism than the ways of sole proprietorship.
I pretty much disagree with everything you wrote. See below for why.
...and if it sounds like hell, you should have no problem.
Yes, and why is that?
It is certainly NOT because JB is an "artist", or is extremely talented, or is beholden to some kind of magic dust in his workshop, which may or may not appear on any given day/week/month....:rolleyes:
It ironic, actually, because while most of these people are not JB, nor have his talent, what they truly lack is the simplest thing to learn and exercise, which is professional conduct, sole proprietor or not.
The desire/ability to correctly estimate the cost and duration of a project; the desire/ability to communicate promptly and clearly with a client; the desire/ability to deliver on said promises 9 times out of 10, because of professional pride and solid ethics if nothing else; the desire/ability to not be rude, to be honest, and to do one's absolute best as often as possible; etc.
All this other crap, non-communication, endless excuses, etc. is shameful, immature, "the dog ate my homework" complete bs 9 times out of 10.
There is no "magic" in proper conduct; it is simply part and parcel of being a professional. Non-pros (whether they purportedly paint bicycles, maintain yards, build buildings, sell via drones, or surgically repair hearts) can find something else to do, and stop wasting our time and our money, if they are unwilling to engage in the most basic professional behavior.
NHAero
12-10-2016, 02:49 PM
I think if I was in your position I would put out a call for a Paceline member to pick up your frame and send it back to you (or if you can find a more reliable painter, directly on to that shop.) As others have said, if the frame does finally show up and something isn't right, you've already proved to yourself that this person isn't responsive.
I had my Nagasawa re-painted by Circle A Cycles 2-1/2 years ago. They had some delays in getting decals, but the process took a bit over 2 months which I felt was fine. I didn't ask at the start for a delivery date but did ask that their schedule could accommodate the job.
fuzzalow
12-10-2016, 05:49 PM
I pretty much disagree with everything you wrote. See below for why.
Yes, and why is that?
It is certainly NOT because JB is an "artist", or is extremely talented, or is beholden to some kind of magic dust in his workshop, which may or may not appear on any given day/week/month....:rolleyes:
It ironic, actually, because while most of these people are not JB, nor have his talent, what they truly lack is the simplest thing to learn and exercise, which is professional conduct, sole proprietor or not.
The desire/ability to correctly estimate the cost and duration of a project; the desire/ability to communicate promptly and clearly with a client; the desire/ability to deliver on said promises 9 times out of 10, because of professional pride and solid ethics if nothing else; the desire/ability to not be rude, to be honest, and to do one's absolute best as often as possible; etc.
All this other crap, non-communication, endless excuses, etc. is shameful, immature, "the dog ate my homework" complete bs 9 times out of 10.
There is no "magic" in proper conduct; it is simply part and parcel of being a professional. Non-pros (whether they purportedly paint bicycles, maintain yards, build buildings, sell via drones, or surgically repair hearts) can find something else to do, and stop wasting our time and our money, if they are unwilling to engage in the most basic professional behavior.
I am certainly not an apologist for any proprietor in the custom bike sub-industry.
You or I were not privvy to the OP's conversations with the un-named painter under scrutiny. Neither of us know what was discussed, understood, agreed upon or promised between the two parties.
I am fine with your disagreement as you are responding to your own set of issues that you are holding against un-named painter: That his conduct and professionalism does not meet the standards you demand. And furthermore that this type of attitude and behaviour causes a bad customer experience.
My post makes no judgement on the un-named painter in either his/her performance as a painter or the manner in which clients are dealt with. What I did post concerned my recommended approach on how to deal with proprietors in the small custom bike sub-industry. It is not my concern to review & critique how un-named painter runs his business or communicates with clients - I would only be able to judge that through direct interaction which neither of us have had.
However, I can make professional judgements based how any proprietor has performed in what I have commissioned them to do. Does a painter, or any service, deliver to the quality, time frame and price understood and agreed upon. That's all I need concern myself with. What anyone else might want in addition is up to them.
I have only used two bike painters in my lifetime: Peter Weigle and Jeff D. through the wonderful operation run by he and Tom K. at The Barn. I told them what I wanted, got a price and them I left them alone to do their job so that whenever they were done, they contacted me.
I am fully aware that not everyone performs to the standard of the gentlemen named here. I can only say the leeway given such men may not be deserved or earned by others who claim to offer the same kind of services.
Funny story: Peter is such a perfectionist! He called me over a span of days in debating what shade of Bianchi Celeste to go for - he was more fussy than I was. I told him I liked anything celeste and to do what he liked best and in hanging up the phone I thought - that was that. He called me back anyway in a few days to discuss the dozen shaded paint swatches he dabbed on the inside of the Bianchi catalog I sent him. Peter settled on a beautiful pearlescent celeste. The guy was driven and unstoppable. Guys like Peter you just gotta let them do it their way, it will always turn out great.
buddybikes
12-10-2016, 06:08 PM
After all this you should ride the bike and get it dirty. Like dogs that what bike souls like...
Llewellyn
12-10-2016, 06:42 PM
I think Fuzz is correct when he says we don't know all the details of the conversations between the OP and the painter, but cadence90 is absolutely right in that when you set up in business your clients are entitled to certain expectations about how you will run that business. It sounds like the painter has failed in those expectations. If I were the OP I'd get the frame back, pay for any work that has been done and get someone else to do the job. There are plenty of good painters out there.
cadence90
12-10-2016, 07:01 PM
I think Fuzz is correct when he says we don't know all the details of the conversations between the OP and the painter, but cadence90 is absolutely right in that when you set up in business your clients are entitled to certain expectations about how you will run that business. It sounds like the painter has failed in those expectations. If I were the OP I'd get the frame back, pay for any work that has been done and get someone else to do the job. There are plenty of good painters out there.
I do think that my previous posts are generalizations regarding normal expectations of professional conduct among any/all parties in any business transaction, whereas some other posts are assumptions regarding private communications, which in fact may or may not be correct.
In any case, yes, I completely agree that if by now this painter cannot/will not deliver the completed work in very short order, then it would be time to retrieve the frame and move on.
93legendti
12-10-2016, 07:13 PM
After a few phone conversations with a well-respected painter, I sent a frame off to be refinished. Only instructions from me were to match what's there. Ballpark price quoted; no money exchanged hands.
That was early June. Since then, nothing.
We've exchanged numerous emails. Some have offered "reasons" for not moving on the job.
Five months in I was assured the frame would be shipped in a week. That was over a month ago.
Last week I emailed again. Returned email was short and curt; it could be viewed as positive or a blow-off, depending on how one reads it. One week later, nothing. Nada. Zip.
I'm running out of patience and time.
The guy is 1,000 miles away. I can't exactly hop in the truck and drive over.
Any constructive suggestions?
If no money has been exchanged, there is no reason not to get your frame back now and move on to another painter.
The "relationship" has soured and you likely won't be happy even if he/she somehow makes up the delay to you.
Personally, next time I would be more specific as to time expectations.
fuzzalow
12-10-2016, 09:18 PM
I am not belaboring a point with you, this is for fun...but we are not talkin' the same thing.
Just my opinion, your view here I disagree with because it lacks nuance.
I do think that my previous posts are generalizations regarding normal expectations of professional conduct among any/all parties in any business transaction, whereas some other posts are assumptions regarding private communications, which in fact may or may not be correct.
To me, there is a vast range of what the semantic of "professional" means so I find your overarching demand unwarranted. For example: investment banking or the law is a very different standard of "professional" conduct compared to what might be expected from a bike painter. Check your consumer entitlement.
In a nutshell, you go through life expecting people to perform and adhere to your amorphous, self-defined standard of perfection, you're gonna go through life disappointed. I prefer a more flexible approach where mutual respect grounds what I do with others and I'll extend myself to do whatever is necessary to achieve the desired result. I'll do more if needed to make up on teamwork, I can handle it.
In any case, yes, I completely agree that if by now this painter cannot/will not deliver the completed work in very short order, then it would be time to retrieve the frame and move on.
Short order? Try the cheap hotel buffet in Vegas. You want instant gratification, go to the mall.
Nice talkin' with you, see you at the next stop.
zmudshark
12-10-2016, 09:39 PM
I dropped a frame off to a guy in June 2016, he said it won't be touched until he slows down in the late Fall/Winter. I told him I'd like it by June 2017. He said 'no problem'. Sounded very reasonable to me. I'll let you know for sure in June 2017.
His name sounds like Orville Redenbacher, sort of.
Louis
12-10-2016, 10:14 PM
If you (the OP) can no longer trust the painter then I think you should request that he ship the frame back to you. If he can't / doesn't do that in a timely manner (say, by the second week in January) then I'd reach out to a forumite who lives nearby and ask if s/he can help you out by picking it up and shipping it to you.
buldogge
12-10-2016, 11:47 PM
Yeah...I think I would have just had it painted locally.
What is the frame?
How "special" is the paint job (super-detailed/special finishes/etc.)?
What is the ballpark cost, for this "artist"?
-Mark in St. Louis
Keith A
12-11-2016, 07:59 AM
Hey guys, let's stick to the topic at hand regarding the OP's request on how to handle this situation...and not squabble about someone's opinion on this topic.
oldpotatoe
12-11-2016, 08:11 AM
I do think that my previous posts are generalizations regarding normal expectations of professional conduct among any/all parties in any business transaction, whereas some other posts are assumptions regarding private communications, which in fact may or may not be correct.
In any case, yes, I completely agree that if by now this painter cannot/will not deliver the completed work in very short order, then it would be time to retrieve the frame and move on.
I agree on all counts. Good customer service isn't rocket science. Bike shops in the republic go outta biz because they commit suicide, it certainly isn't for lack of business. Good customer service-say what, when and how much..if a problem, communicate. Don't be rude or condescending.
A rather well known frame builder, who is now out of business, once complained hugely when the bike shop, where I was working, asked why the frame was so delayed. Lack of proper tube for down tube, was the rude answer(in other words, how dare you even ask, leave the 'artists' alone!). Why not put pressure on the tube maker or look elsewhere, it was asked. To not anger the tube maker was the answer..but it was OK to anger us, the customer.
The ultimate customer canceled the order and bought a Ti Merckx..delivered in 4 days.
Good customer service, not arrogance(very similar to frame alignment thread)..is easy.
fuzzalow
12-11-2016, 08:42 AM
Hey guys, let's stick to the topic at hand regarding the OP's request on how to handle this situation...and not squabble about someone's opinion on this topic.
The manner in which the OP got into and handled this transaction set the course on possible outcomes for the situation.
I do not seek to be disagreeable to anyone on this topic but I do endeavor to be fair. I saw this as somebody not being clear about what they wanted, starting a process that didn't meet expectations and then taking to the public forums to get advice to fix on how he was mistreated. But there are two sides to every story and culpability for all.
I'll be honest, I'm a little hypersensitive about people crybaby-ing on blaming others for things they had a hand in in screwing up. As much a reaction to the upcoming presidency as much as my fear it's example legitimizes a blameless society.
I'll exit this thread, see you at the next stop.
P.S. I hadda add this last comment in...
The alignment to sides in this discussion is amusing and illustrative of the influence of bias that runs through everyone's perceptions and behaviour. My argument & position in this thread is the lone wolf argument against all other comforts in the familiarity and righteousness of the consumer as king. It is not always pleasant to be on the opposite side of the crowd but that's OK because this is, after all, just conversation.
Remember this force of behavioural and perception bias the next time you are arguing against motorists for fair treatment and respect of bicyclists rights to share the road.
CampyorBust
12-11-2016, 08:48 AM
With a Painter Prod… duh…
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j49/PedalPusher33/PainterProd_zpstnuigwq3.jpg
“Quit yer bitchin’ and Gitrdun dammit”
All the right things have already been said. No excuse for bad customer service!
William
12-11-2016, 09:18 AM
I dropped a frame off to a guy in June 2016, he said it won't be touched until he slows down in the late Fall/Winter. I told him I'd like it by June 2017. He said 'no problem'. Sounded very reasonable to me. I'll let you know for sure in June 2017.
His name sounds like Orville Redenbacher, sort of.
Management 101: Set expectations. It doesn't matter if its a sole proprietor or a mid-level manager in a sea of cubes...set expectations. In the example above, it doesn't matter what the time frame is, painter said when he could get to it, customer agreed. No problem unless the painter drags it out well beyond that time frame.
The OP didn't state in the OP what the agreed to time frame was...if there was one? We don't know. He was later told it would be shipped in "a week" and a month later he still has nothing. I think that does say a lot about the way things are going.
William
Plum Hill
12-11-2016, 12:55 PM
The manner in which the OP got into and handled this transaction set the course on possible outcomes for the situation.
I do not seek to be disagreeable to anyone on this topic but I do endeavor to be fair. I saw this as somebody not being clear about what they wanted, starting a process that didn't meet expectations and then taking to the public forums to get advice to fix on how he was mistreated. But there are two sides to every story and culpability for all.
I'll be honest, I'm a little hypersensitive about people crybaby-ing on blaming others for things they had a hand in in screwing up. As much a reaction to the upcoming presidency as much as my fear it's example legitimizes a blameless society.
I'll exit this thread, see you at the next stop.
P.S. I hadda add this last comment in...
The alignment to sides in this discussion is amusing and illustrative of the influence of bias that runs through everyone's perceptions and behaviour. My argument & position in this thread is the lone wolf argument against all other comforts in the familiarity and righteousness of the consumer as king. It is not always pleasant to be on the opposite side of the crowd but that's OK because this is, after all, just conversation.
Remember this force of behavioural and perception bias the next time you are arguing against motorists for fair treatment and respect of bicyclists rights to share the road.
Way off base there, pal. You have no idea about how I got into this transaction, other than your baseless perceptions.
Initial contact was via email, then followed up with phone calls.
Request was to duplicate what was there: same color, same panels, same graphics. Pretty easy on that request, right? Painter agreed it was do-able.
Ballpark turnaround time was quoted, but a change in the person's life soon happened that served to push delivery time back. I understood.
Sooner or later, though, with no contact and unanswered emails, I began to get a bit concerned. Promises went unfulfilled; other issues arose on his end. I understood on one of those issues.
Sooner or later, unless one is physically unable, that person has to buck up and complete the job. Eventually, the most understanding customer loses patience.
I spent 35 years in the construction industry. I know all about building and manufacturing processes, along with small scale custom work on various fronts. And I'm fully aware of things that can go haywire in one's life.
I asked for constructive suggestions, knowing how some people can go off on this forum. And that seems to be what's happened.
There was a prior thread about the same issue with a California finisher.
I had personal conversations with Cadence before I posted here. He got the full lowdown except for the guy's name. I know you all want the businessman outed, but I don't want to do that.
People have suggested contacting other Paceliners.
I did that (via phone) some time ago with another customer. All I wanted to know was if the guy was alright. For all I know, he could have become incapacitated, injured, or passed away. I was told he was OK and active, and producing, and got nothing but praise for his work.
A number have suggested enlisting someone to go in and cowboy the frame away, but that has issues. If I don't know the background of the savior, how do I know that person is trustworthy? Do I send him a blank check to pay the other guy? If I was the businessman, would I relinquish an item to someone I didn't know? Sounds good on the surface, but.... And how to remunerate that person for his time and trouble?
I'm not sure what I expected out of this request. Ideas could have been along the lines of contacting the BBB, the Chamber of Commerce, the local state's attorney; sending pizza and beer; sending some speed.
All I had entering into this were Reasonable Expectations.
That's all any of us have when we solicit a custom built frame, a custom paint job, or anything along those lines. We normally fill out a form or make a personal request. That's usually followed up by sending a check (few take credit cards, thereby losing one avenue of retribution) and getting in the que. I know of no one signing a contract that specifically calls out a completion date or penalties incurred for untimely production.
I still have faith in the guy's work. I'm just running out of patience and time.
Doug Fattic
12-11-2016, 06:55 PM
The fastest way to get your job done with the least amount of hassle is to work with your present painter but reset the time line to a generous length (and not when you think it should be done because he is late now). If you take the frame to another good painter you will be at the back of his queue which most likely means months more of waiting. If you want to make the situation a win/win then work with him 1st in a non-confrontational way.
Avoid interrogative questions like “why haven’t you finished my frame yet when you promised you would?" They know perfectly well that you are not going to be satisfied by their answer and they don’t structure their lives in such a way they can give an honest answer exactly when it can be done. This is why they just avoid communication. Instead ask what a comfortable amount of time he can get it done without being rushed. Make a deal based on that information. Suggest you will check in at half that time to see if there are any problems with decals or questions about paint colors. Then whenever that agreed amount of total time is up (probably 6 to 8 weeks) say that by then you both agree too much time has finally elapsed and you will get the frame at whatever stage of finish it is in then. It is probable that this reset will allow him to get the job done within the new time line and this is greater motivation than fear of retaliation. If your approach is as an adversary your likely hood of a successful agreement goes way down.
In my church this year a guest preacher started his sermon by asking the question “have any of you ever dealt with an artist?” and that got a good laugh and had everyone’s attention. It was a set up for a us vs them illustration that everyone in the congregation understood. Paceliners should understand the difference too. Most bicycle painter/builders are artist types and customers of expensive bicycles are type A personalities. The possibilities for conflict and misunderstanding are endless. The values each retain as most important are not shared. Artist types are not ruled by the clock and calendar and don’t keep score with money. They chose a job where they don’t have a boss and don’t have to deal with people much. Ordinary pressures that work so effectively in other businesses do not work well on an artist. That doesn’t mean they are resistant to all pressures, just not the ones dominating personalities know and like to apply.
weisan
12-11-2016, 07:06 PM
Excellent advice, Doug pal!
soulspinner
12-12-2016, 05:35 AM
This is why my repaints have all been within driving distance. If I had to drive a couple hours to get it back, so be it. Never happened though and there are good painters everywhere in upstate NY..... YMMV.
unterhausen
12-12-2016, 06:34 AM
Always listen to Doug. I had to go back and re-read the initial post. It seems to me that the deal went sour when the painter said it would be done in a week. Before that, the delivery time was nebulous. That was his mistake, but I would offer him a chance to take it back and offer a reasonable timeline. Now he's defensive, feels bad about what has happened, and has gone radio silent as a result. There is probably a reason he couldn't get it done in a week, he just doesn't want to admit what it is.
sales guy
12-12-2016, 06:46 AM
Here is my point for the OP....is bike painting all the guy does?
If not, and he does cars or motorcycles as my painter does, then it's pretty common for them to push off a bicycle. I had my guy take almost a year once. And actually, I have a Ritchey BreakAway frame still in raw form waiting for a repaint. It's been bare steel for 7 years now!
For my guy, he does an amazing job and has so since I started using him. But he is also nuts. If he isn't happy with the finished product, he will literally scrap it and start over! That's nuts too me. But it's him and his process. And it works for him and has also gotten him work others would never ever get.
So there are multiple reasons why there could be delays. I know 1k seems like a big drive. Personally, me, if it were my frame and there had been a long delay and I wasn't getting answers, I would make the trip and go see him.
But again, maybe there are things that are delaying him that you're not aware of.
AngryScientist
12-12-2016, 06:49 AM
good advice from Doug on this, and a very reasonable approach to move forward.
unterhausen
12-12-2016, 08:00 PM
these threads always remind me how much I used to enjoy painting frames. But I'd probably have some sort of isocyanate induced pseudo-asthma, since I used to paint back before the dangers were fully understood. Or at least they weren't communicated to painters back then.
Plum Hill
12-13-2016, 07:36 AM
On Mr. Fattic's comment about working with an artist - when that artist turns his avocation into a vocation (i.e. Soliciting work for payment) in an attempt to feed himself and his family, he becomes a businessman. If he intends to put food on the table and be successful, he has to think in a different way.
Perhaps that's what they're known as "starving artists".
rallizes
12-13-2016, 07:57 AM
I'm curious what the 'reasons' were for not starting the job
rallizes
12-13-2016, 08:07 AM
And here's this other thing
If he's so backed up he is not getting back to you and not doing the job and not getting the frame back to you isn't this likely currently happening to other customers in the queue? Some unwitting customer is probably sending a frame to him today
At this point the painter should not be accepting orders until he gets a handle on existing orders if he can't be clear about delivery times
Just my opinion
William
12-13-2016, 01:20 PM
In my church this year a guest preacher started his sermon by asking the question “have any of you ever dealt with an artist?” and that got a good laugh and had everyone’s attention. It was a set up for a us vs them illustration that everyone in the congregation understood. Paceliners should understand the difference too. Most bicycle painter/builders are artist types and customers of expensive bicycles are type A personalities. The possibilities for conflict and misunderstanding are endless. The values each retain as most important are not shared. Artist types are not ruled by the clock and calendar and don’t keep score with money. They chose a job where they don’t have a boss and don’t have to deal with people much. Ordinary pressures that work so effectively in other businesses do not work well on an artist. That doesn’t mean they are resistant to all pressures, just not the ones dominating personalities know and like to apply.
On Mr. Fattic's comment about working with an artist - when that artist turns his avocation into a vocation (i.e. Soliciting work for payment) in an attempt to feed himself and his family, he becomes a businessman. If he intends to put food on the table and be successful, he has to think in a different way.
Perhaps that's what they're known as "starving artists".
While I understand what Doug Fattic is saying, in this case we have to take what PH commented to above. When one is running a business, the “artist” has to think of production on some level. In the case of a painter (I don’t have any info that he is also a builder), he is taking other people’s objects and painting them for a fee. An agreement as to what is an acceptable time frame for turnaround should be part of the transaction. In order for that to happen the painter needs to have a grasp on what he has in his shop at any given time when he accepts a job, the different processes involved for each job, and a general time frame for each process that they can use to estimate turnaround times. Just because one might consider themselves an “artist” doesn’t mean they don’t need to know or consider that. “I’ll get to it when I get it” doesn’t cut it for most potential customers.
I’m an artist schooled in the sciences. For many years back in Portland I managed a company where almost everything we created was by hand - custom with a side-line of semi-custom works. Fine art, architectural installations and signage, as well as custom awards working in glass and various metals. Etching, carving, masking, air brush, hand painting, spray painting, silver and gold leaf appliqué, bonding, bending, as well as photo processes. Almost everything we did was event based as well so there were hard deadlines for almost everything. You can’t tell Nationally and Internationally acclaimed artists, architects, and designers that you’ll get to it when you get to it. You can’t tell companies like Microsoft, Sony, MGM, Intel etc… that you’ll get to it when you can get to it. You won’t be in business long.
When you are talking about painting or even building frames, there is a process, and that process can be quantified into general time frames. We had many possible processes and work centers that a job could go through, but that was part of production scheduling…developing metrics for each process and being able to extrapolate that for size and quantity (plus a little padding for the unexpected). This was a must to have things run smoothly and in a timely fashion. When a customer says we have an event on “X” date, you better know whether you can hit that date with everything else you have going on in the shop because there is no “we’ll get it done the following week or month”.
Imo there is no reason why a one man/woman operation can’t do the same with painting or frame building. That’s not to say that there aren’t some doing that already, but from threads that pop up like this from time to time there are some that should be. If you are running a business, structure is a good thing.
Also…
Artist types are not ruled by the clock and calendar and don’t keep score with money.
Everyone who worked in production at our company were local artists or art students from local universities. At times it could be like herding cats, but as I said in another post, set the expectations, illicit feedback, and praise good work and they can do well in a structured custom production environment. Even creative people can work within schedules if they have the knowledge, training, and will to apply it.
William
cadence90
12-13-2016, 01:41 PM
Doug Fattic, Plum Hill, and William all make good points, but I really think that the typical "artist versus non-artist" behavioral definition is a clichè. Most artists (and certainly bicycle painters) are not Basquiat supported by Warhol, etc., and so cannot really afford to "act all crazy 'n stuff". Most actually have a very high degree of self-discipline in general, and certainly specifically when working/collaborating with others.
My father was a painter and art professor; my mother a silversmith; my brother an actor; I am an architect...so, all "artists". Put any of us, and the vast, vast majority of the artists I have known, in front of a clock, a calendar, and a paycheck, and see what happens then.
Those who respect deadlines and commitments, regardless of field, whether "artists" or not, are the ones that succeed.
93legendti
12-13-2016, 01:50 PM
Artist or not, if you take money for your services, you are a professional and running a business. You should act that way.
If you're going to operate as an artist (as opposed to a business), at least tell your clients up front that you can't be held to deadlines and you don't put up with impatience and disappointment re bad communication.
Similarly, if your business doesn't lend itself to deadlines, be upfront with the customer.
When my Dad designed a table with Nakashima and asked him to build it, Nakashima told him up front: "Look, I build all my furniture based upon pieces I find walking in the woods. It may be 6 months or it could be 5 years until I find the perfect piece of wood for this project. When I find the perfect piece of wood, I will let you know."
William
12-13-2016, 01:51 PM
Doug Fattic, Plum Hill, and William all make good points, but I really think that the typical "artist versus non-artist" behavioral definition is a clichè. Most artists (and certainly bicycle painters) are not Basquiat supported by Warhol, etc., and so cannot really afford to "act all crazy 'n stuff". Most actually have a very high degree of self-discipline in general, and certainly specifically when working/collaborating with others.
My father was a painter and art professor; my mother a silversmith; my brother an actor; I am an architect...so, all "artists". Put any of us, and the vast, vast majority of the artists I have known, in front of a clock, a calendar, and a paycheck, and see what happens then.
Those who respect deadlines and commitments, regardless of field, whether "artists" or not, are the ones that succeed.
Agreed. That was the basis of my last post. To me, the "artists excuse" holds little water.
William
William
12-13-2016, 01:53 PM
Artist or not, if you take money for your services, you are a professional and running a business. You should act that way.
If you're going to operate as an artist (as opposed to a business), at least tell your clients up front that you can't be held to deadlines and you don't put up with impatience and disappointment re bad communication.
Similarly, if your business doesn't lend itself to deadlines, be upfront with the customer.
When my Dad designed a table with Nakashima and asked him to build it, Nakashima told him up front: "Look, I build all my furniture based upon pieces I find walking in the woods. It may be 6 months or it could be 5 years until I find the perfect piece of wood for this project. When I find the perfect piece of wood, I will let you know."
And still, expectations were set.
William
93legendti
12-13-2016, 01:58 PM
And still, expectations were set.
William
Right, and the table was built within ~ 3 years. Because of the communication and my Dad going in with eyes wide open, he wasn't upset/over anxious and Nakashima didn't feel any additional stress.
The irony of this all is communication benefits the business. I read somewhere once that most legal malpractice cases arise out of a bad result AND bad communication by the attorney.
cadence90
12-13-2016, 02:03 PM
Artist or not, if you take money for your services, you are a professional and running a business. You should act that way.
If you're going to operate as an artist (as opposed to a business), at least tell your clients up front that you can't be held to deadlines and you don't put up with impatience and disappointment re bad communication.
Similarly, if your business doesn't lend itself to deadlines, be upfront with the customer.
When my Dad designed a table with Nakashima and asked him to build it, Nakashima told him up front: "Look, I build all my furniture based upon pieces I find walking in the woods. It may be 6 months or it could be 5 years until I find the perfect piece of wood for this project. When I find the perfect piece of wood, I will let you know."
Wow, what a special, special piece. Do your family/you still have the table?
Agreed. That was the basis of my last post. To me, the "artists excuse" holds little water.
William
And still, expectations were set.
William
Eggs-actly. :)
93legendti
12-13-2016, 02:17 PM
Wow, what a special, special piece. Do your family/you still have the table?
Eggs-actly. :)
My Mom does, as well as the drawing they both collaborated for the piece. I'll have to go over there and dig it out and post a pic, as well as one of the table. Nakashima was an architect, as was my Dad. My Dad had a way of not taking "no" for an answer and doing it very unassumingly. I guess when my Dad started sketching Nakashima's interest was piqued. My Dad passed a long time ago.
My Mom has 6-7 Nakashima pieces. The table, 2 chairs, a stool, a bench, a pencil holder...that's all I can think of off hand...the first chair I remember sitting on as a kid in the late '60's/early 70's.
I have one - a pencil holder my wife uses for makeup brushes.
cadence90
12-13-2016, 02:20 PM
My Mom does, as well as the drawing they both collaborated for the piece. I'll have to go over there and dig it out and post a pic, as well as one of the table. Nakashima was an architect, as was my Dad. My Dad had a way of not taking "no" for an answer and doing it very unassumingly. I guess when my Dad started sketching Nakashima's interest was piqued. My Dad passed a long time ago.
My Mom has 6-7 Nakashima pieces. The table, 2 chairs, a stool, a bench, a pencil holder...that's all I can think of off hand...the first chair I remember sitting on as a kid in the late '60's/early 70's.
I have one - a pencil holder my wife uses for makeup brushes.
Fantastic.
i hope that your family is able to always hold on to those pieces, and pass them down along with the stories.
But...a Nakashima pencil holder should hold one or more of your father's drafting pencils! ;)
93legendti
12-13-2016, 02:33 PM
Fantastic.
i hope that your family is able to always hold on to those pieces, and pass them down along with the stories.
But...a Nakashima pencil holder should hold one or more of your father's drafting pencils! ;)
We will hold onto them. They are all in fanatasic shape...
I agree...but you tell my wife...;)
http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab27/adambaker29/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-12/FACFE45A-2198-442F-AF3C-8F87D86C9157_zpsmeialvsv.jpg (http://s846.photobucket.com/user/adambaker29/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-12/FACFE45A-2198-442F-AF3C-8F87D86C9157_zpsmeialvsv.jpg.html)
cadence90
12-13-2016, 02:38 PM
We will hold onto them. They are all in fanatasic shape...
I agree...but you tell my wife...;)
Not a chance.
The only thing I would say to your wife is, "Mrs. 93legendti, I must say, you really have excellent taste in make-up brush holders." :D
That thing is beautiful.
93legendti
12-13-2016, 02:40 PM
Not a chance.
The only thing I would say to your wife is, "Mrs. 93legendti, I must say, you really have excellent taste in make-up brush holders." :D
That thing is beautiful.
That's better than the "Oh?" I said when she gave me the news...
seanile
12-13-2016, 04:33 PM
The irony of this all is communication benefits the business. I read somewhere once that most legal malpractice cases arise out of a bad result AND bad communication by the attorney.
and as with every thread that broaches this topic, communication is the key to a successful [business] relationship.
unterhausen
12-13-2016, 06:25 PM
there are very few painters that I would put in the same category as an artist. An artist comes up with an idea and attempts to realize it in the medium that they are skilled at. Sure there is craftsmanship, but the real art is in the idea. For the most part, frame painting is more of a skilled craft. I would generally avoid a painter that considered themselves an artist first. Similarly, that is also not my taste in frames. If I could find someone in either line of business that would admit to considering themselves a businessman first, that would be a real consideration. OTOH, if someone said they were building me a frame and they considered themselves an engineer first, that's also not to my taste, usually.
Would you go to a machinist that considers themselves an artist? I wouldn't. Same with painters. That probably means they are a frustrated artist.
William
12-14-2016, 07:55 AM
there are very few painters that I would put in the same category as an artist. An artist comes up with an idea and attempts to realize it in the medium that they are skilled at. Sure there is craftsmanship, but the real art is in the idea. For the most part, frame painting is more of a skilled craft. I would generally avoid a painter that considered themselves an artist first. Similarly, that is also not my taste in frames. If I could find someone in either line of business that would admit to considering themselves a businessman first, that would be a real consideration. OTOH, if someone said they were building me a frame and they considered themselves an engineer first, that's also not to my taste, usually.
Would you go to a machinist that considers themselves an artist? I wouldn't. Same with painters. That probably means they are a frustrated artist.
I agree. How many bike painters do you see doing intricate airbrushed murals on tubes on a regular basis? It doesn't mean they can't apply paint and mask it well, but it's more about being good with the process than creativity. Dario (as mentioned earlier) skirts the "artist" term with some of his work. One might argue that John Slawta with some of his almost impressionistic paint jobs skirting artistry as well.
William
malcolm
12-14-2016, 09:03 AM
The fastest way to get your job done with the least amount of hassle is to work with your present painter but reset the time line to a generous length (and not when you think it should be done because he is late now). If you take the frame to another good painter you will be at the back of his queue which most likely means months more of waiting. If you want to make the situation a win/win then work with him 1st in a non-confrontational way.
Avoid interrogative questions like “why haven’t you finished my frame yet when you promised you would?" They know perfectly well that you are not going to be satisfied by their answer and they don’t structure their lives in such a way they can give an honest answer exactly when it can be done. This is why they just avoid communication. Instead ask what a comfortable amount of time he can get it done without being rushed. Make a deal based on that information. Suggest you will check in at half that time to see if there are any problems with decals or questions about paint colors. Then whenever that agreed amount of total time is up (probably 6 to 8 weeks) say that by then you both agree too much time has finally elapsed and you will get the frame at whatever stage of finish it is in then. It is probable that this reset will allow him to get the job done within the new time line and this is greater motivation than fear of retaliation. If your approach is as an adversary your likely hood of a successful agreement goes way down.
In my church this year a guest preacher started his sermon by asking the question “have any of you ever dealt with an artist?” and that got a good laugh and had everyone’s attention. It was a set up for a us vs them illustration that everyone in the congregation understood. Paceliners should understand the difference too. Most bicycle painter/builders are artist types and customers of expensive bicycles are type A personalities. The possibilities for conflict and misunderstanding are endless. The values each retain as most important are not shared. Artist types are not ruled by the clock and calendar and don’t keep score with money. They chose a job where they don’t have a boss and don’t have to deal with people much. Ordinary pressures that work so effectively in other businesses do not work well on an artist. That doesn’t mean they are resistant to all pressures, just not the ones dominating personalities know and like to apply.
To me this is so beyond ridiculous as to be absurd.
It's a bike painter for god's sake. If you present yourself as a business you should be able to perform as one. You're painting bikes for money. Set a deadline and deliver a product, just like the other 90% of the business world.
unterhausen
12-14-2016, 09:13 AM
To me this is so beyond ridiculous as to be absurd.
It's a bike painter for god's sake. If you present yourself as a business you should be able to perform as one. You're painting bikes for money. Set a deadline and deliver a product, just like the other 90% of the business world.
if you know any construction or landscaping businesses in my area that follow this model, please let me know, because the one's I've had dealings with do not.
But yeah, I don't really understand the scheduling problems that painters have. It seems like the materials are readily available, it's not like framebuilding where you might have to wait for the castings to show up. So where are the months-long delays in the process?
Just because you are a great baker has no bearing on you running a successful bakery. :beer:
Macadamia
12-14-2016, 11:25 AM
if you know any construction or landscaping businesses in my area that follow this model, please let me know, because the one's I've had dealings with do not.
When I first clicked on this thread I was thinking it was going to be about house painting. I used to regularly be the last one in a rental or remodel cleanup, cleaning the carpet or tile, and it was always the painter saying "whoops we need 2 more days or a week", after we'd got there and seen paint cans and plastic littering the house.
Bob Ross
12-14-2016, 12:07 PM
Just because you are a great baker has no bearing on you running a successful bakery.
+1. I believe I've mentioned this here before, courtesy of Ira Friedman:
"Our industry is littered with the carcasses of brilliant inventors who suffered an entrepenurial seizure."
harlond
12-14-2016, 01:59 PM
My Mom does, as well as the drawing they both collaborated for the piece. I'll have to go over there and dig it out and post a pic, as well as one of the table. Nakashima was an architect, as was my Dad. My Dad had a way of not taking "no" for an answer and doing it very unassumingly. I guess when my Dad started sketching Nakashima's interest was piqued. My Dad passed a long time ago.
My Mom has 6-7 Nakashima pieces. The table, 2 chairs, a stool, a bench, a pencil holder...that's all I can think of off hand...the first chair I remember sitting on as a kid in the late '60's/early 70's.
I have one - a pencil holder my wife uses for makeup brushes.Since the OP's question has been answered thoroughly, this is why I'm checking back in this thread.:)
cadence90
12-14-2016, 02:14 PM
since the op's question has been answered thoroughly, this is why i'm checking back in this thread.:)
+1!
93legendti
12-14-2016, 02:39 PM
Since the OP's question has been answered thoroughly, this is why I'm checking back in this thread.:)
Ok. I'll have to go over to my Mom's and take some pics. She is out of town, but no problem.
livingminimal
12-14-2016, 02:48 PM
Ok. I'll have to go over to my Mom's and take some pics. She is out of town, but no problem.
Start a new OT thread. Call it "artisan furniture" or something. just get us those pics!
paredown
12-14-2016, 03:29 PM
Start a new OT thread. Call it "artisan furniture" or something. just get us those pics!
I'm in as well. I'm a fan of Nakashima.
William
12-14-2016, 03:35 PM
Start a new OT thread. Call it "artisan furniture" or something. just get us those pics!
https://the-fringe.com/images/smilies/popnana.gif
William
Plum Hill
12-19-2016, 11:51 AM
I leave tomorrow to head out of the country.
Imagine my surprise when I came home this morning and found a large box on my front porch.
Now imagine how surprised I was when I opened that box and found a beautifully painted frame and fork.
That isn't mine.
seanile
12-19-2016, 11:55 AM
oh my god
https://media4.giphy.com/media/1PIGU0cftC2pG/200_s.gif
Bob Ross
12-19-2016, 11:56 AM
I leave tomorrow to head out of the country.
Imagine my surprise when I came home this morning and found a large box on my front porch.
Now imagine how surprised I was when I opened that box and found a beautifully painted frame and fork.
That isn't mine.
This thread just got really good.
:banana:
CampyorBust
12-19-2016, 11:57 AM
^ LOL I almost snarfed. Sorry.
Man I really hope you get YOUR frame and the paint job is out of this world awesome. Is the frame your size? Maybe this is just a little something something to tie you over untill your frame comes.
AngryScientist
12-19-2016, 11:59 AM
you can't even make this stuff up!
well - what did you get, there's probably some percentage >18% that it belongs to a member here!
druptight
12-19-2016, 12:21 PM
:crap::crap::crap::crap::crap::crap:
fuzzalow
12-19-2016, 12:22 PM
you can't even make this stuff up!
I dunno, could be made up, couldn't it? I mean, parting shots from our departing contestants, and all?
I don't mean to disbelieve but sometimes people come in with an agenda and they just gotta be proved right as a way to dispel that they had an agenda all along. 'Cos nobody tries to build-up suspense to a public outing just 'cos they DIDN'T want something, right?
I don't mind being wrong if I am indeed wrong but something here just isn't right.
"All virtue is summed up in dealing justly" which I think is a quote from Aristotle.
seanile
12-19-2016, 12:50 PM
that's pretty paranoid of you.
parris
12-19-2016, 12:52 PM
How lousy this deal has to be not only for the op but also the other customer who owns the frame that the op now has! :eek:
CampyorBust
12-19-2016, 12:59 PM
that's pretty paranoid of you.
There is an agenda.;)
cmbicycles
12-19-2016, 01:24 PM
I leave tomorrow to head out of the country.
Imagine my surprise when I came home this morning and found a large box on my front porch.
Now imagine how surprised I was when I opened that box and found a beautifully painted frame and fork.
That isn't mine.
Is it at least painted in the colors you chose? ;)
CampyorBust
12-19-2016, 02:47 PM
Is it at least painted in the colors you chose? ;)
Ha I had that happen, as I was told by the painter you will learn to live with it. Still learning...
soulspinner
12-19-2016, 04:16 PM
I dunno, could be made up, couldn't it? I mean, parting shots from our departing contestants, and all?
I don't mean to disbelieve but sometimes people come in with an agenda and they just gotta be proved right as a way to dispel that they had an agenda all along. 'Cos nobody tries to build-up suspense to a public outing just 'cos they DIDN'T want something, right?
I don't mind being wrong if I am indeed wrong but something here just isn't right.
"All virtue is summed up in dealing justly" which I think is a quote from Aristotle.
Really? Have a lot of respect for some of your posts but not this one......
cadence90
12-19-2016, 04:39 PM
I leave tomorrow to head out of the country.
Imagine my surprise when I came home this morning and found a large box on my front porch.
Now imagine how surprised I was when I opened that box and found a beautifully painted frame and fork.
That isn't mine.
This is insane. What a total f*+#-up....
I dunno, could be made up, couldn't it? I mean, parting shots from our departing contestants, and all?
I don't mean to disbelieve but sometimes people come in with an agenda and they just gotta be proved right as a way to dispel that they had an agenda all along. 'Cos nobody tries to build-up suspense to a public outing just 'cos they DIDN'T want something, right?
I don't mind being wrong if I am indeed wrong but something here just isn't right.
"All virtue is summed up in dealing justly" which I think is a quote from Aristotle.
Why would you even think, let alone post, all that? :confused: :rolleyes:
Really? Have a lot of respect for some of your posts but not this one......
No kidding. Bizarre, and cruel.
Mzilliox
12-19-2016, 05:02 PM
I leave tomorrow to head out of the country.
Imagine my surprise when I came home this morning and found a large box on my front porch.
Now imagine how surprised I was when I opened that box and found a beautifully painted frame and fork.
That isn't mine.
this is awesome, when do we get to find out whos who in this game?
CNY rider
12-19-2016, 05:33 PM
Is it at least painted in the colors you chose? ;)
Yeah don't keep us hanging.
Is it the paint job you requested, but on the wrong bicycle?
Or something unconnected to you that randomly went out in a box with your name on it?
stephenmarklay
12-19-2016, 05:39 PM
Not knowing what has been said during your conversations with him I agree with cadence90.
Your giving him to many excuses because he is “well-respected” for his work. What if he were just some guy you pulled out of a hat? Would you feel the same?
What happens when you get back your frame and it’s not right? Do you think he will be attentive to you then?
I say cut bait.
I could be an ass and say I predicted it but I would rather say I am sorry for your frustration and I hope it all ends soon in a positive way.
oldpotatoe
12-19-2016, 06:10 PM
I leave tomorrow to head out of the country.
Imagine my surprise when I came home this morning and found a large box on my front porch.
Now imagine how surprised I was when I opened that box and found a beautifully painted frame and fork.
That isn't mine.
Could this be a F__KU from the painter? Maybe another customer was screwed and complained so 2 birds with one FedEx account.:p
rallizes
12-19-2016, 06:56 PM
Sounds like a real pro.
I can't imagine his next customer will fare well.
Mzilliox
12-19-2016, 06:58 PM
I leave tomorrow to head out of the country.
Imagine my surprise when I came home this morning and found a large box on my front porch.
Now imagine how surprised I was when I opened that box and found a beautifully painted frame and fork.
That isn't mine.
dude, pics of the beautiful frame please! we all love a pretty bike:beer:
crankles
12-19-2016, 07:07 PM
I'll exit this thread, see you at the next stop.
I dunno, could be made up, couldn't it? I mean, parting shots from our departing contestants, and all?
I don't mean to disbelieve but sometimes people come in with an agenda and they just gotta be proved right as a way to dispel that they had an agenda all along. 'Cos nobody tries to build-up suspense to a public outing just 'cos they DIDN'T want something, right?
I don't mind being wrong if I am indeed wrong but something here just isn't right.
"All virtue is summed up in dealing justly" which I think is a quote from Aristotle.
And here I'd thought you'd left the bar....but no, you had to pop in for one last drink. Seriously, what could possibly prompt you to direct such an accusation at the OP?
stephenmarklay
12-19-2016, 07:10 PM
dude, pics of the beautiful frame please! we all love a pretty bike:beer:
Yeah and if its nicer than the one you sent your styling :hello:
Cicli
12-19-2016, 07:11 PM
Yeah and if its nicer than the one you sent your styling :hello:
Providing its the same size.
eddief
12-19-2016, 08:51 PM
I know it's Putin.
soulspinner
12-20-2016, 04:36 AM
I know it's Putin.
:p:p
bobswire
12-20-2016, 07:37 AM
I think this has been a very constructive thread as well as a fun read for the most part. A how to on the do's and don'ts regarding expectations,communication and setting a time line on work for both the consumer and the craftsman doing the work.
Oh, and when all else fails.
http://i68.tinypic.com/2ci78ft.jpg
CampyorBust
12-20-2016, 09:49 AM
then you could tell us who not to have paint our bikes. Maybe his last name sounds like "jerk off?" That's it! Joe Jerkoff.
I know it's Putin.
Братан ты че ваще? Нельзя людей обижать! А пестик его видал?
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j49/PedalPusher33/Pewpewputin_zpsbvtphsud.jpg
2 hoppers at once like a pro! This man can prime, basecoat and clear all at once...While on a bear shark, bareback, shirtless mid air guiding a gander of geese south for the winter and painting frames all at the same time.Just dont ask how:eek::D
CampyorBust
12-20-2016, 09:51 AM
http://i68.tinypic.com/2ci78ft.jpg
Ugh your game is weak...
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j49/PedalPusher33/PainterProd_zpstnuigwq3.jpg
Plum Hill
12-21-2016, 07:03 PM
I dunno, could be made up, couldn't it? I mean, parting shots from our departing contestants, and all?
I don't mean to disbelieve but sometimes people come in with an agenda and they just gotta be proved right as a way to dispel that they had an agenda all along. 'Cos nobody tries to build-up suspense to a public outing just 'cos they DIDN'T want something, right?
I don't mind being wrong if I am indeed wrong but something here just isn't right.
"All virtue is summed up in dealing justly" which I think is a quote from Aristotle.
Geezus, bud, are you the CEO of Cynics 'r' Us?
I wonder what your reaction would be if the shoe was on your foot (to coin a phrase). Would you be as patient as I've been? I bet not.
I have no agenda other than getting my frame back.
Nothing made up here. I don't think a good comedy writer could come up with anything better. Alfred Hitchcock, perhaps.
As for the frameset I received, it's my brand but not my model or color. The work does look good. It is currently sitting at a local shipping business awaiting a pre-paid shipping label. I figure that guy might like to get his frameset back. It would have made a helluva nice Christmas present.
rustychisel
12-21-2016, 07:32 PM
dude, pics of the beautiful frame please! we all love a pretty bike:beer:
Nah, you can't do that (especially without outing the painter concerned). Also, waaay too much chance of a member here recognising their frame [!!!!]
Mzilliox
12-21-2016, 09:28 PM
Nah, you can't do that (especially without outing the painter concerned). Also, waaay too much chance of a member here recognising their frame [!!!!]
shhhh:rolleyes:
Plum Hill
12-22-2016, 04:25 PM
A mint green S....
AngryScientist
12-22-2016, 04:41 PM
I can't say I understand where we are at with this thread.
Are we not a community here, who help each other out? If there is indeed a frame painter who is as bad as described here, why is the identity of said painter not disclosed so the rest of us can exercise due diligence with regard to painting our own frames?
No rules have technically been broken here, so I have no reason to close this thread, but it has just turned into an account and discussion of what appears to be ridiculously bad customer service, of an unidentified vendor.
given that there are at least two sides to every one of these stories and usually three, it would be nice to give the painter an opportunity to chime in with his side of the story.
anyway, it's only my opinion, and it's worth about what any of you are paying for it - but i do not like these type of threads that go on for pages bitching about someone or something that is undisclosed. to me, it serves zero purpose and adds zero value here.
rallizes
12-22-2016, 05:48 PM
I don't understand the code of silence here either.
I pity the guy next in line in this painter's queue.
mcteague
12-22-2016, 05:56 PM
I don't understand the code of silence here either.
I pity the guy next in line in this painter's queue.
Right. Name the painter and maybe that would prod the person to provide their side of this woeful tale.
Tim
Something isn't right, starting to feel fuzzalow.
earlfoss
12-22-2016, 06:13 PM
These threads are always awesome! By not naming the painter, you virtually guarantee that your thread will stay at the top of the heap for a long time. If you're lucky, we'll get this out to 40-50 pages!
SoCalSteve
12-22-2016, 06:21 PM
Until I have MY frame back in hand, I wouldn't out the painter either. That is a sure way to never get your frame back.
I had a very similar situation happen to me earlier this year. I eventually got my frame back and have been warning people about this company ever since.
But, I waited to out them until I had my frame back. They were also about a 1000 miles away and I really had no recourse.
I would hope that once the OP has his frame back, painted or not, that he would fill us in on this very bad businessman or woman.
Until then I'd keep my mouth shut!
Good luck to the OP. Hope it all works out for you!
stephenmarklay
12-22-2016, 06:33 PM
I can't say I understand where we are at with this thread.
Are we not a community here, who help each other out? If there is indeed a frame painter who is as bad as described here, why is the identity of said painter not disclosed so the rest of us can exercise due diligence with regard to painting our own frames?
No rules have technically been broken here, so I have no reason to close this thread, but it has just turned into an account and discussion of what appears to be ridiculously bad customer service, of an unidentified vendor.
given that there are at least two sides to every one of these stories and usually three, it would be nice to give the painter an opportunity to chime in with his side of the story.
anyway, it's only my opinion, and it's worth about what any of you are paying for it - but i do not like these type of threads that go on for pages bitching about someone or something that is undisclosed. to me, it serves zero purpose and adds zero value here.
I am guessing the OP does not want to drag his name (the painter) through the mud nor make his own situation worse since he still does not have his bike back. I respect that. At some point howe
Plum Hill
12-23-2016, 01:24 AM
Until I have MY frame back in hand, I wouldn't out the painter either. That is a sure way to never get your frame back.
I had a very similar situation happen to me earlier this year. I eventually got my frame back and have been warning people about this company ever since.
But, I waited to out them until I had my frame back. They were also about a 1000 miles away and I really had no recourse.
I would hope that once the OP has his frame back, painted or not, that he would fill us in on this very bad businessman or woman.
Until then I'd keep my mouth shut!
Good luck to the OP. Hope it all works out for you!
Bingo!
cadence90
12-23-2016, 02:13 AM
Until I have MY frame back in hand, I wouldn't out the painter either. That is a sure way to never get your frame back.
I had a very similar situation happen to me earlier this year. I eventually got my frame back and have been warning people about this company ever since.
Completely agree.
Was the painter Ruckus, or was that a different job?
William
12-23-2016, 06:28 AM
Sounds like this painter has a bad motivator (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hbp41_vlX0). :)
William
Lots of drama queens here
rallizes
12-23-2016, 04:32 PM
Until I have MY frame back in hand, I wouldn't out the painter either. That is a sure way to never get your frame back.
I had a very similar situation happen to me earlier this year. I eventually got my frame back and have been warning people about this company ever since.
But, I waited to out them until I had my frame back. They were also about a 1000 miles away and I really had no recourse.
I would hope that once the OP has his frame back, painted or not, that he would fill us in on this very bad businessman or woman.
Until then I'd keep my mouth shut!
Good luck to the OP. Hope it all works out for you!
who is the company?
SoCalSteve
12-23-2016, 04:51 PM
Completely agree.
Was the painter Ruckus, or was that a different job?
Nope, was Ruckus. Wasn't paint...but putting my Ottrott back together again after I broke it in two. Lots of issues, lots of phone calls, lots of broken promises. Not a good company to do business with.
Not sure if dealing with them was more emotional than me standing over my beloved frame after crashing it and seeing it broken in half. No one should have to go through with what I dealt with. Yeah, yeah...it's a bike frame, I know. But lots of great memories were made riding that bike.
It's not perfect aesthetically, but it rides as good as new. Maybe if it wasn't irreplaceable it would have been a different story. But, I've said over and over again, nothing rides as well as an Otttrott, nothing.
cadence90
12-23-2016, 06:51 PM
Nope, was Ruckus. Wasn't paint...but putting my Ottrott back together again after I broke it in two. Lots of issues, lots of phone calls, lots of broken promises. Not a good company to do business with.
It's not perfect aesthetically, but it rides as good as new.
So, it was repaired, well, by someone else?
Who did the good work?
54ny77
12-23-2016, 06:58 PM
i like turtles. ;)
SoCalSteve
12-23-2016, 07:01 PM
So, it was repaired, well, by someone else?
Who did the good work?
They eventually sort of got it right. But not before it went to Mike Lopez in San Diego, back to them, to me, back to them and finally to me for the last time. The frame went up and down the west coast numerous times. Each time was a promise it would be only a few days more, lots of broken promises.
It rides fine, they messed up pretty badly on the aesthetics's. And, the way they handled the whole affair was totally unprofessional.
Just happy to have gotten it back. There was a time when I felt that I wasn't going to ( just a feeling ).
I'm not the only person on this forum who has had issues with them. Had I read the horror stories sooner, I would have never sent my frame to them.
cadence90
12-23-2016, 07:14 PM
I see. What a hassle. Thanks for the clarification.
earlfoss
12-23-2016, 10:44 PM
I like turtles too. Green ones tend to get my attention more than the brown ones.
Plum Hill
01-11-2017, 10:11 PM
After the wrong frame debacle, I requested pre-paid UPS return address label and picture of my frame as proof of it's existence.
Nothing.
Contacted again on 12-26.
Received picture of frame with masking tape on it, indicating to me it wasn't finished.
After two weeks and before my return to the US, I emailed (1-3-17) with my promise: upon my return, other bike would be shipped back; that cost would be deducted from payment; check would be sent less return costs; and I would contact the local authorities with regards to legal action.
Frame was on my porch on 1-6-17.
Cost reduced to $150 plus what I spent (around $40) to send the other frameset to the shop that should have gotten it (that last saw it over a year ago).
Happy with it?
No.
It looks like he sprayed over the original paint, as there are spots where a different shade of the same color is visible.
Another shop added S&S couplings (which necessitated repaint; they originally told me they could match the finished, did the work, then said...oops, can't match it - that's a story in itself). Spots of their primer still visible, and primer overspray on couplings from conversion still there.
I will live with it.
This frameset was purchased off the Forum.
It's the same geometry of a carbon HSG I have. That geometry in that size is the only off-the-rack bike I've found that fits me.
It was my choice to have it converted to a travel bike.
I realize there is a 100% chance the bike will receive it's fair amount of scratches in it's intended use. The finished bike will be, for lack of a better term, a tool. It will not be a dream bike. That's why I will live with what it is.
Regardless, there was absolutely no reason for the person to conduct business in this manner.
I'm still torn on whether or not to out the guy.
There have been requests to do it. Others have contacted me saying not to do it.
And insinuations that I've made the whole thing up.
I've received a number of stories of the same type of treatment by other "names" in the bicycling industry.
This isn't my first rodeo. I've had five custom bikes over the last 20 years. The people gave me a timeline, stuck to it, and communicated with me.
As I said in an earlier post, when people solicit this type of work, it's not art - it's a business. You better damn well treat your clients as a valued customer and not as some non-descript name-with-no-face on a ledger.
I contacted other people (vendors on this site) that this person does work for. Opinions have been very mixed. Had I have heard these before I sent my business to him, I would have insisted on: a contract, a firm delivery date, and some type of arbitration process for voiding the first two items.
There is a thread on this forum extolling his work. Needless to say, I did not have the same positive experience.
The person in question is the person that originally painted the frame at the factory.
Take it from there.
nesteel
01-11-2017, 10:24 PM
As for outing the offending painter, ask yourself: How bad are you going to feel when someone else goes through the same song and dance from the same painter?
William
01-11-2017, 10:32 PM
After the wrong frame debacle, I requested pre-paid UPS return address label and picture of my frame as proof of it's existence.
Nothing.
Contacted again on 12-26.
Received picture of frame with masking tape on it, indicating to me it wasn't finished.
After two weeks and before my return to the US, I emailed (1-3-17) with my promise: upon my return, other bike would be shipped back; that cost would be deducted from payment; check would be sent less return costs; and I would contact the local authorities with regards to legal action.
Frame was on my porch on 1-6-17.
Cost reduced to $150 plus what I spent (around $40) to send the other frameset to the shop that should have gotten it (that last saw it over a year ago).
Happy with it?
No.
It looks like he sprayed over the original paint, as there are spots where a different shade of the same color is visible.
Another shop added S&S couplings (which necessitated repaint; they originally told me they could match the finished, did the work, then said...oops, can't match it - that's a story in itself). Spots of their primer still visible, and primer overspray on couplings from conversion still there.
I will live with it.
This frameset was purchased off the Forum.
It's the same geometry of a carbon HSG I have. That geometry in that size is the only off-the-rack bike I've found that fits me.
It was my choice to have it converted to a travel bike.
I realize there is a 100% chance the bike will receive it's fair amount of scratches in it's intended use. The finished bike will be, for lack of a better term, a tool. It will not be a dream bike. That's why I will live with what it is.
Regardless, there was absolutely no reason for the person to conduct business in this manner.
I'm still torn on whether or not to out the guy.
There have been requests to do it. Others have contacted me saying not to do it.
And insinuations that I've made the whole thing up.
I've received a number of stories of the same type of treatment by other "names" in the bicycling industry.
This isn't my first rodeo. I've had five custom bikes over the last 20 years. The people gave me a timeline, stuck to it, and communicated with me.
As I said in an earlier post, when people solicit this type of work, it's not art - it's a business. You better damn well treat your clients as a valued customer and not as some non-descript name-with-no-face on a ledger.
I contacted other people (vendors on this site) that this person does work for. Opinions have been very mixed. Had I have heard these before I sent my business to him, I would have insisted on: a contract, a firm delivery date, and some type of arbitration process for voiding the first two items.
There is a thread on this forum extolling his work. Needless to say, I did not have the same positive experience.
The person in question is the person that originally painted the frame at the factory.
Take it from there.
With your last sentence I think I know who you are talking about with about 98% certainty. Since I am not 100% though and it's not my transaction I will leave it at that.
William
GParkes
01-12-2017, 05:24 AM
Not necessarily an apples to apples comparison, but: About 15 years ago I had my wife's custom Nova Special (she was fit at the Middle Grove location for it in 1989 after having our first child, so sentimental value) l had the bike repainted. A local painter I know was doing the work and he was using a new paint from PPG at the time. He did the work and my wife loved it, I was pleased, all good. When I was building it up, the paint was flaking off edges around BB shell. I told him about it and HE WAS DISAPPOINTED. He asked for the frame back, repainted it no cost. To this day, the bike is the only highlighter pink Serotta in Capital District of NY. Maybe in the world. Paint isn't easy, but being a good person is.
soulspinner
01-12-2017, 05:50 AM
After the wrong frame debacle, I requested pre-paid UPS return address label and picture of my frame as proof of it's existence.
Nothing.
Contacted again on 12-26.
Received picture of frame with masking tape on it, indicating to me it wasn't finished.
After two weeks and before my return to the US, I emailed (1-3-17) with my promise: upon my return, other bike would be shipped back; that cost would be deducted from payment; check would be sent less return costs; and I would contact the local authorities with regards to legal action.
Frame was on my porch on 1-6-17.
Cost reduced to $150 plus what I spent (around $40) to send the other frameset to the shop that should have gotten it (that last saw it over a year ago).
Happy with it?
No.
It looks like he sprayed over the original paint, as there are spots where a different shade of the same color is visible.
Another shop added S&S couplings (which necessitated repaint; they originally told me they could match the finished, did the work, then said...oops, can't match it - that's a story in itself). Spots of their primer still visible, and primer overspray on couplings from conversion still there.
I will live with it.
This frameset was purchased off the Forum.
It's the same geometry of a carbon HSG I have. That geometry in that size is the only off-the-rack bike I've found that fits me.
It was my choice to have it converted to a travel bike.
I realize there is a 100% chance the bike will receive it's fair amount of scratches in it's intended use. The finished bike will be, for lack of a better term, a tool. It will not be a dream bike. That's why I will live with what it is.
Regardless, there was absolutely no reason for the person to conduct business in this manner.
I'm still torn on whether or not to out the guy.
There have been requests to do it. Others have contacted me saying not to do it.
And insinuations that I've made the whole thing up.
I've received a number of stories of the same type of treatment by other "names" in the bicycling industry.
This isn't my first rodeo. I've had five custom bikes over the last 20 years. The people gave me a timeline, stuck to it, and communicated with me.
As I said in an earlier post, when people solicit this type of work, it's not art - it's a business. You better damn well treat your clients as a valued customer and not as some non-descript name-with-no-face on a ledger.
I contacted other people (vendors on this site) that this person does work for. Opinions have been very mixed. Had I have heard these before I sent my business to him, I would have insisted on: a contract, a firm delivery date, and some type of arbitration process for voiding the first two items.
There is a thread on this forum extolling his work. Needless to say, I did not have the same positive experience.
The person in question is the person that originally painted the frame at the factory.
Take it from there.
I guess at this point when it came back less than good its time to out him although having exchanged PMs with you I knew who he was then. He sure can paint when he wants to as I have seen work of his I thought was fantastic.Thats what does it for me. After all this he sends a frame that is unsatisfactory.
Mr. Squirrel
01-12-2017, 06:02 AM
http://www.vibrakeys.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/DanglingCarrot.gif
nom nom nom!
mr. squirrel
tuscanyswe
01-12-2017, 06:08 AM
I guess a lot of ppl can now guess who this person is including myself but what if its not him, then you have casted a shadow on someone who dident deserve it in any way. Perhaps not the best way to go about it imo. No info no clues or tell who it is, think that would be best and most fair to everyone.
AngryScientist
01-12-2017, 06:15 AM
first off, i'm so glad you got the frame back. seriously - short of a perfect paint job, this is the best outcome. you have the bike in hand.
i wish we knew what forum the guy whose bike was sent to Plum incorrectly is posting on!
Rusty Luggs
01-12-2017, 06:32 AM
Telling a story like that without identifying the painter makes it likely folks are drawing their own conclusions about who the guy is, which might be totally off base. Does every painter who might match some of the clues you gave deserve to have their business impacted?
slidey
01-12-2017, 07:20 AM
Yo, OP: Glad you got your bike back, but seriously, enough with the drama.
You might think it is a very noble gesture on your part, but in my view you're just that person in a group ride who never calls out debris/obstructions on the road.
cmbicycles
01-12-2017, 08:10 AM
130+ posts, more than a month long saga... glad you got the bike back sort of painted. I understand not wanting to jeopardize anything while a situation is still unfolding, and I understand that we value those in the bike industry as we have a connection to their products, and want to continue to enjoy them. That said...
OP wants the business person to behave like a business, so why not just set the facts out and move on, "This was my experience with soandso, ymmv." Businesses get reviews in real life. Dropping "hints" as to the painter is just more pandering about and potentially harmful to others. Just state the facts and be done. I'm looking at maybe having a frame refinished if some macro touch up doesn't suit my liking so I will be looking through threads for advice on who to send my business towards.
We are all adults, or at least play one at work, so state the facts and be done. All this tall over not wanting to "out" someone helps no one. Not you, not the painter, not potential customers of un-said painter. If the painter was to respond great, if not they write it off as a learning opportunity and work to do better.
rallizes
01-12-2017, 08:17 AM
Good on the OP for protecting the painter
It would be a shame if he got less work
Nooch
01-12-2017, 08:54 AM
Good on the OP for protecting the painter
It would be a shame if he got less work
:D:D:D
It's amazing how many well regarded folks in this industry are complete and total eff-ups when it comes to handling their own business.
But that's it -- that's why these guys were successful -- because they had a boss and didn't have to worry about the business end. They could work their 'craft' and not have to worry about the pitfalls of being self-employed, like 'oh, it looks like a nice day to go fishing, I'm going to do that...'
oldpotatoe
01-12-2017, 08:58 AM
Good on the OP for protecting the painter
It would be a shame if he got,__________, (less work)
or
'a chance to do more crappy work':eek:
54ny77
01-12-2017, 09:14 AM
the kvetching runs strong in this thread.
and yet, we're no more informed of who does the crap work.
William
01-12-2017, 09:57 AM
If the service was as bad as described, now that you have the fame back a PSA would be helpful so others can evaluate whether this is a road they want to try to navigate. At this point most people don't know where that road lies...
https://media.giphy.com/media/5wWf7H0qoWaNnkZBucU/giphy.gif
:)
William
soulspinner
01-12-2017, 10:01 AM
if the service was as bad as described, now that you have the fame back a psa would be helpful so others can evaluate whether this is a road they want to try to navigate. At this point most people don't know where that road lies...
https://media.giphy.com/media/5wwf7h0qowannkzbucu/giphy.gif
:)
william
+1
Mzilliox
01-12-2017, 10:04 AM
the kvetching runs strong in this thread.
and yet, we're no more informed of who does the crap work.
right? i guess some people now "know" but the rest of us are just hoping that our next painter isn't this person.
notsew
01-12-2017, 10:15 AM
Yo, OP: Glad you got your bike back, but seriously, enough with the drama.
You might think it is a very noble gesture on your part, but in my view you're just that person in a group ride who never calls out debris/obstructions on the road.
Best response. I feel like I'm in groundhog day. A thread like this happens every six months. I don't get it.
seanile
01-12-2017, 10:58 AM
would one of you people who does know who the painter is please speak up?
i sure as hell don't want to go through this saga when i decide on a repaint all because OP decided to be noble for god knows what reason...very misguided to not share this information. especially now that the painter didn't take any steps to make good on their end of the transaction.:help: :crap:
edit: you want him to act like a business, well, act like the mistreated customer that you are and warn your peers.
54ny77
01-12-2017, 11:54 AM
on any variety of social media, people crap all over a restaurant, hotel, retail store, service provider (auto repair, etc.), consumer product (clothing) and name names like there's no tomorrow.
but those bike painters....oh such reverence! thou shalt not be named! who's the painter, voldemort?
well, my personal i'd-use-a-spray-can-of-krylon-in-my-backyard-before-using-these-guys list includes:
ira ryan
assenmacher
cycle therapy / element 6
ed litton / classic rendezvous
earlfoss
01-12-2017, 12:41 PM
Let's get this out to 50 pages. Perhaps that is the required number of pages required to out the painter?
DRAMA!
These threads are always terrible.
93legendti
01-12-2017, 12:58 PM
Please name names.
If he/she is bad enough to seek advice from us, he/she is bad enough to be outed.
572cv
01-12-2017, 01:12 PM
I'm still torn on whether or not to out the guy.
There have been requests to do it. Others have contacted me saying not to do it.
The person in question is the person that originally painted the frame at the factory.
Take it from there.
PlumHill, the OP, has shown considerable reluctance to get further into this. Others have been cajoling for the name, but I say it is his decision. I've been there, not with a bike paint job, but similar purchase of services which didn't work out. I wanted it to go away. It wasn't my responsibility or my desired risk to extend the controversy. I never did business with the provider again, nor would I tolerate my family doing so. If someone contacts me to ask my thoughts on the provider, I tell them exactly what I think. But not in the public discourse is the matter fodder for discussion, at least not by me.
I have considered a repaint of a Mevici, and if I settle on some options, I will contact Plum-pal and ask if he has any opinions about the painters I am considering. This might be a path anyone looking for paint might consider. Otherwise, with no direct interest in the matter, it is just more negative informational energy that no one needs in this world today.
I appreciate the sharing of this story, though. I hope that the encouragement and solidarity of this place was somehow helpful to the OP.
Mzilliox
01-12-2017, 01:24 PM
hahaha, this thread exemplifies one of the odd issues creeping into our society today. this political correctness in a place that deserves no such treatment. who are you protecting at this point? its certainly isn't us, your peers. you are only protecting the person who deserves no such treatment at all. so why is that?
just tell the story like it is, and let adults be adults about it, as this has become foolish at this point. its like warning your neighbors you know one of the people on the street is a serial killer, but im not naming names...
seanile
01-12-2017, 01:24 PM
edit: im repeating myself. to sum, making a stink about this whole thing, and then leaving everyone just as uninformed as they were coming into it all is a disservice to us all...
m_sasso
01-12-2017, 01:36 PM
Seems a bit selfish to me coming on the forum asking for advise about how to deal with problem however unwilling to share his knowledge about the questionable service.
CampyorBust
01-12-2017, 02:11 PM
If I may just play Keanu (huh?) for a bit…
I can understand Plum not wanting to out the guy. You never know if there may be repercussions for outing him (some shady unscrupulous two faced slick pricks out there), the guy does have his address and obviously everything is not honky or dory. The painter’s behavior thus far has shown an immature approach to dealing with customers and their belongings. Frankly no excuse for this none at all.
People talk and seagulls squawk. So its understandable he does not want to risk falling victim to further inconveniences or worse. Stalking, harassment and outright thinly veiled nastiness seems to be prevalent as we regresses further, respect for privacy is damn near non existent, the cycling world is no exception. As for starting a public discussion on the matter, that seems to have gotten the desired result, so mission successful? Plum has his frame back, though badly painted and a whole lot of heartache to show for it. Which makes me wonder why did this guy treat him so? Seems to be self defeating. :confused:
Now to play Keanu in reverse, could be a hit piece on the painter, who knows? Personally I think it was Miss Scarlet in the Lounge with the candlestick, bitch is lethal with that candle stick.
It is understandable that forumites may all want to know who the offending painter is for our own righteously selfish reasons. I would be curious as well, but not going to cast stones over it. Perhaps a game of clue is in order? I am pretty clueless so please make em easy. If Plum wants to share fine, if not I ain’t trippin’. It looks like a few people already know who the offending party is, word will get out. I would however like to see the frame though, sounds like a right awful minger. :eek:
Black Dog
01-12-2017, 02:19 PM
Telling a story like that without identifying the painter makes it likely folks are drawing their own conclusions about who the guy is, which might be totally off base. Does every painter who might match some of the clues you gave deserve to have their business impacted?
This is my concern about the last post form the OP. Give no hints or give a name. Anything in between can have real consequences for some painters that have done nothing wrong.
rallizes
01-12-2017, 02:21 PM
If I may just play Keanu (huh?) for a bit…
I can understand Plum not wanting to out the guy. You never know if there may be repercussions for outing him (some shady unscrupulous two faced slick pricks out there), the guy does have his address and obviously everything is not honky or dory. The painter’s behavior thus far has shown an immature approach to dealing with customers and their belongings. Frankly no excuse for this none at all.
People talk and seagulls squawk. So its understandable he does not want to risk falling victim to further inconveniences or worse. Stalking, harassment and outright thinly veiled nastiness seems to be prevalent as we regresses further, respect for privacy is damn near non existent, the cycling world is no exception. As for starting a public discussion on the matter, that seems to have gotten the desired result, so mission successful? Plum has his frame back, though badly painted and a whole lot of heartache to show for it. Which makes me wonder why did this guy treat him so? Seems to be self defeating. :confused:
Now to play Keanu in reverse, could be a hit piece on the painter, who knows? Personally I think it was Miss Scarlet in the Lounge with the candlestick, bitch is lethal with that candle stick.
It is understandable that forumites may all want to know who the offending painter is for our own righteously selfish reasons. I would be curious as well, but not going to cast stones over it. Perhaps a game of clue is in order? I am pretty clueless so please make em easy. If Plum wants to share fine, if not I ain’t trippin’. It looks like a few people already know who the offending party is, word will get out. I would however like to see the frame though, sounds like a right awful minger. :eek:
by not naming the painter all painters are 'suspect'
that's why these threads are really no good
they don't help fellow paceliners avoid a bad painter and they don't help painters that do good work
CampyorBust
01-12-2017, 02:34 PM
Anything in between can have real consequences for some painters that have done nothing wrong.
by not naming the painter all painters are 'suspect'
that's why these threads are really no good
they don't help fellow paceliners avoid a bad painter and they don't help painters that do good work
True dat!
After the wrong frame debacle, I requested pre-paid UPS return address label and picture of my frame as proof of it's existence.
Nothing.
Contacted again on 12-26.
Received picture of frame with masking tape on it, indicating to me it wasn't finished.
After two weeks and before my return to the US, I emailed (1-3-17) with my promise: upon my return, other bike would be shipped back; that cost would be deducted from payment; check would be sent less return costs; and I would contact the local authorities with regards to legal action.
Frame was on my porch on 1-6-17.
Cost reduced to $150 plus what I spent (around $40) to send the other frameset to the shop that should have gotten it (that last saw it over a year ago).
Happy with it?
No.
It looks like he sprayed over the original paint, as there are spots where a different shade of the same color is visible.
Another shop added S&S couplings (which necessitated repaint; they originally told me they could match the finished, did the work, then said...oops, can't match it - that's a story in itself). Spots of their primer still visible, and primer overspray on couplings from conversion still there.
I will live with it.
This frameset was purchased off the Forum.
It's the same geometry of a carbon HSG I have. That geometry in that size is the only off-the-rack bike I've found that fits me.
It was my choice to have it converted to a travel bike.
I realize there is a 100% chance the bike will receive it's fair amount of scratches in it's intended use. The finished bike will be, for lack of a better term, a tool. It will not be a dream bike. That's why I will live with what it is.
Regardless, there was absolutely no reason for the person to conduct business in this manner.
I'm still torn on whether or not to out the guy.
There have been requests to do it. Others have contacted me saying not to do it.
And insinuations that I've made the whole thing up.
I've received a number of stories of the same type of treatment by other "names" in the bicycling industry.
This isn't my first rodeo. I've had five custom bikes over the last 20 years. The people gave me a timeline, stuck to it, and communicated with me.
As I said in an earlier post, when people solicit this type of work, it's not art - it's a business. You better damn well treat your clients as a valued customer and not as some non-descript name-with-no-face on a ledger.
I contacted other people (vendors on this site) that this person does work for. Opinions have been very mixed. Had I have heard these before I sent my business to him, I would have insisted on: a contract, a firm delivery date, and some type of arbitration process for voiding the first two items.
There is a thread on this forum extolling his work. Needless to say, I did not have the same positive experience.
The person in question is the person that originally painted the frame at the factory.
Take it from there.
If you only paid $150, it sort of sounds like you got you "got what you paid for," so to speak.
Plum Hill
01-12-2017, 02:42 PM
Geezus H Christ.
There's a search feature on these pages.
Smart people figured it out.
Others used that PM feature.
The guy claimed to have been having personal issues, so if the out results in his going off the deep end, it's on your shoulders.
Bill McDonald.
Like most of you hadn't figured that out.
Trust me, had I have seen any recommendation for him on this forum, I would have contacted all parties via PM to warn them.
The bike I received was out of Fifty West Cycling in Cincinnati, Ohio.
It was a repaint for a customer. Said customer has had numerous surgeries in the last year, so wasn't in a hurry for the product. Plus, it wasn't his only bike.
Bike can be seen at: https://vibbi.com/bmacspaintworks . I believe it's the one in the upper left corner. Sad, the post was made two months ago. That would mean at least ten months after he received it.
So, there you go.
You have your bleeding hunk of meat served up on a platter.
You can now dance on his soul.
earlfoss
01-12-2017, 03:01 PM
Meh, no need to dance on the guy's soul. I just won't send him any business!
William
01-12-2017, 03:17 PM
Geezus H Christ.
There's a search feature on these pages.
Smart people figured it out.
Others used that PM feature.
The guy claimed to have been having personal issues, so if the out results in his going off the deep end, it's on your shoulders.
Bill McDonald.
Like most of you hadn't figured that out.
Trust me, had I have seen any recommendation for him on this forum, I would have contacted all parties via PM to warn them.
The bike I received was out of Fifty West Cycling in Cincinnati, Ohio.
It was a repaint for a customer. Said customer has had numerous surgeries in the last year, so wasn't in a hurry for the product. Plus, it wasn't his only bike.
Bike can be seen at: https://vibbi.com/bmacspaintworks . I believe it's the one in the upper left corner. Sad, the post was made two months ago. That would mean at least ten months after he received it.
So, there you go.
You have your bleeding hunk of meat served up on a platter.
You can now dance on his soul.
I don't think anyone is looking to run the guy down, people just want to be able to know what a vendor's track record is when looking to spend their hard earned cash. The members of this forum tend to like to look out for each other. You started this thread because you had a problem, it's only natural that everyone who offered advice would like to know how it was resolved and who the vendor in question was.
I'm going to lock this up since it has run its course. If the OP wants me to re-open it he can contact me. If any more pertinent information comes to light we can re-visit it.
William
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