Source of Ti tubes

[nmrt]

So, I have been shopping for a Ti frame and have been talking to a few dealers. I have been told that Moots sources their Ti tubes from the US while many other Ti builders source it from non US sources. I was wondering if there is a difference in quality (whatever "quality" might mean to you) between Ti tubes sourced from different places.

Should this be a valid concern? Should I be aiming for US sourced tubes for reasons other than "mined in the USA"?

Thanks for your insight in advance.

[JasonF]

Disclaimer: I love my Vamoots.

Those who use tubes sourced from only US suppliers will probably point to the fact that QC is top-notch and consistent, something lacking from foreign-sourced tubes. I remember reading an article about a Moots factory tour, where the Moots crew relayed as much.

Builders that use non-US tubes will probably assert that QC is very high, it's all aerospace-grade (which is marketing gobbledygook) and foreign-tubes are manufactured to withstand stresses far beyond what a bicycle demands.

In the end, it's all about the comfort level of the purchaser, the skill of the builder, and the truth may be somewhere in the middle.

[lookout2015]

You might find this essay by Rob Vandermark interesting. It's old (he wrote it when Merlin was just taking off) but it touches on Russian Ti, amongst lots of other things. The tl;dr is at least back then they just couldn't get consistent quality from non-US

http://web.archive.org/web/19970301131943/http://merlinbike.com/primer.html

[Louis]

Good Luck finding Made in USA Ti.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_titanium_production

[ptourkin]

Good Luck finding Made in USA Ti.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_titanium_production

That's not where the tubes are made. Unless you meant this as a joke.

[Louis]

That's not where the tubes are made. Unless you meant this as a joke.

I posted that because the OP asks "Should I be aiming for US sourced tubes for reasons other than "mined in the USA"?"

[eddief]

but the ti tubes on my Chinese frame somehow translated into my finest riding bike to date. I might have gotten more looks and wows and maybe even a better ride from US tubes, but I got what I got and I'm glad I got it. Hope it does not crack or break or corrode before my eyes or with me on top. Those old pipes from Russian jets are just right for recycling into bike frames.

[ptourkin]

I posted that because the OP asks "Should I be aiming for US sourced tubes for reasons other than "mined in the USA"?"

Gotcha.

[OtayBW]

I posted that because the OP asks "Should I be aiming for US sourced tubes for reasons other than "mined in the USA"?"
Titanium is titanium is titanium, whether it comes from ilmenite, rutile, anatase, leucoxene, or any other Ti-bearing phase. It is not so much the mining, but the metal beneficiation/processing, alloying, and tube manufacturing that I think is important.

[cadence90]

A slightly updated version of Rob Vandermark's Ti White Paper (http://www.sevencycles.com/buildingbike/techsupplement/ti.php) from the Seven website.

It is definitely worth a read.

[nmrt]

I did not mean only to say "mined in the USA" but also Ti tubes "drawn/processed/manufatured in the USA". I hope that clarifies things.

[Louis]

I'm all for buying "Made in USA" stuff, and do so myself whenever practical.

Personally, I think if you're going to trust a frame manufacturer to design and build a bike frame (either custom for you, or off-the-shelf production) then you should also be willing to trust his or her choice of supplier for the tubing.

YMMV

[nmrt]

Thanks for the link. It was a great read. I am going to quote a section from it:

"Titanium Quality
The quality and strength of titanium tubing varies just as it does for steel tubing, depending upon the source of the material. The key to tubing quality lies in processing, which plays a critical role in determining the structural integrity—and therefore the longevity—of the final product. During processing, three variables affect the final quality of a titanium tube: texture, also known as molecular grain orientation; interior and exterior surface finish; and the presence or lack of surface and chemical defects."

So, it does look like, according to Vandermark, the source of the Ti as well as the manufacturing process matters.

While I am not implying that US sourced and manufactured tubing is the best, I would really like to know which Ti framebuilders use US sourced/manufactured tubing. In just pure monetary terms, I am assuming that US sourced tubing must be expensive (how expensive -- two fold, three...?). So, anyone know which frame builders use US sourced Ti tubings?
Anyone know?



A slightly updated version of Rob Vandermark's Ti White Paper (http://www.sevencycles.com/buildingbike/techsupplement/ti.php) from the Seven website.

It is definitely worth a read.

[nmrt]

Louis -- Thanks for your response. Your're right: I will trust my builder to choose the right tubing. But this thread is not about trust. It is simply an academic pursuit to inquire/determine if there are justifiable differences between tubing sourced from different places that may not only be important structurally to how a bike performs but also to how much money is being spent/saved by choosing tubing from varying locations.

I'm all for buying "Made in USA" stuff, and do so myself whenever practical.

Personally, I think if you're going to trust a frame manufacturer to design and build a bike frame (either custom for you, or off-the-shelf production) then you should also be willing to trust his or her choice of supplier for the tubing.

YMMV

[OtayBW]

During processing, three variables affect the final quality of a titanium tube: texture, also known as molecular grain orientation;...

So, it does look like, according to Vandermark, the source of the Ti as well as the manufacturing process matters.
Some years ago, I worked for a company that was located just a few miles away from Seven and I called over there to see if they would supply me with a ~1 in length of some of their tubing to run a texture analysis (it's a type of an x-ray diffraction technique) as a teaching tool. They would not supply a sample. Good/bad, right/wrong - that's your call, but I never forgot that.....

[AngryScientist]

I'm all for buying "Made in USA" stuff, and do so myself whenever practical.

Personally, I think if you're going to trust a frame manufacturer to design and build a bike frame (either custom for you, or off-the-shelf production) then you should also be willing to trust his or her choice of supplier for the tubing.

YMMV

yes, i do agree with this. you should trust that a chosen builder (whether a single man shop or bigger operation like Seven) is going to stake their reputation on building the best frame they can, it is their job to pick the best raw materials.

i would love to hear some of the rockstars of titanium like carl strong, steve potts or TK chime in on this, but i think it is safe to say that those guys are going to be picking materials they know and trust to build their final product.

[seanile]

firefly sources from Titanium Joe (http://www.titaniumjoe.com/). where their raw material is from, or if they produce everything in-house and don't import some, i do not know. there are some tubes on their site that refer to "american made" though.

[nmrt]

Now this may not be relevant to cycling (make bike frames) at all but I really would like to see the molecular/textural differences (if any) via X-ray diffraction or any other technique performed on Ti tubing sourced/manufactured for different places.

I mean, if Vandermark is correct in his statement that source and manufacturing of ti tubes do matter, then how do frame builders choose a certain Ti tube source? I really would like to know simply because if Moots is touting they use US manufactured Ti tubes, I want to know why. And if other builders are not choosing US Ti tubes, I would like to know why.

I do understand, that I a novice rider, I will definitely not be able to tell the difference in ride/bike handling. But still, inquiring minds would like to know the difference if any in Ti tubes sourced/manufactured from different locations.



yes, i do agree with this. you should trust that a chosen builder (whether a single man shop or bigger operation like Seven) is going to stake their reputation on building the best frame they can, it is their job to pick the best raw materials.

i would love to hear some of the rockstars of titanium like carl strong, steve potts or TK chime in on this, but i think it is safe to say that those guys are going to be picking materials they know and trust to build their final product.

[sales guy]

As someone who deals with this daily since the company I work with makes Titanium frames, there is a difference and builders are partial to certain tubing manufacturers due to multiple reasons. It's the same as steel builders using certain tubing.

I have a few different ti frames. They are made with tubing from China, Sweden, Russia and the US. Sandvik being the US company and someone who has been doing this forever with fantastic results. They used to supply all or almost all the ti tubing to bike manufacturers. Merlin, Kona, GT and others. They were even making frames under their own brand and even offered tubing for a do it yourself kit that had lugs and tubing and you just bonded it yourself.

But yes, there are differences in the materials, the way they are processed and more. A perfect example of this is the SR-71 Blackbird. They had problems with many pieces of the plane due to poor manufacturing processes. The CIA even set up dumbie corps to buy the titanium in the USSR cause it was a strategic metal during the 60's and 70's. But read up on it. It's pretty interesting stuff.

[sales guy]

Now this may not be relevant to cycling (make bike frames) at all but I really would like to see the molecular/textural differences (if any) via X-ray diffraction or any other technique performed on Ti tubing sourced/manufactured for different places.

I mean, if Vandermark is correct in his statement that source and manufacturing of ti tubes do matter, then how do frame builders choose a certain Ti tube source? I really would like to know simply because if Moots is touting they use US manufactured Ti tubes, I want to know why. And if other builders are not choosing US Ti tubes, I would like to know why.

I do understand, that I a novice rider, I will definitely not be able to tell the difference in ride/bike handling. But still, inquiring minds would like to know the difference if any in Ti tubes sourced/manufactured from different locations.

One reason people aren't choosing US made tubing is cost and accessibility. It's the same reason my guys use who they use. They get stuff thru Sweden cause they can't get the British stuff at a reasonable cost. And they don't have a large enough supply.

Most people in the US using ti tubing is buying it from Sandvik. Who still makes incredibly good and reliable tubing. Very consistent too. But they are expensive.

[Ralph]

Wonder where Lynskey gets theirs?

[rwsaunders]

Titanium tubing is similar to steel tubing in that there is a grading system established as an industry standard. I.e. 3A1-2.5V tubing is 3AI-2.5V tubing regardless of where the seamless tube is drawn. If I recall, 3AI-2.5V tubing can be either annealed or cold worked. There are levels of testing (ASTM standards) certification but I'm not sure that frame fabricators focus on certification.

[smontanaro]

I'm just a vintage steel guy, but aren't there recognized brands of Ti tubing, just as Reynolds, Columbus, Tange and Ishiwata are/were known for their steel tubing?

[Aaron O]

You might find this essay by Rob Vandermark interesting. It's old (he wrote it when Merlin was just taking off) but it touches on Russian Ti, amongst lots of other things. The tl;dr is at least back then they just couldn't get consistent quality from non-US

http://web.archive.org/web/19970301131943/http://merlinbike.com/primer.html

This...

I'm not sure about if things changed, and I wonder if US sourced tubes means foreign raw material processed here. What I know is that Russian ti was far more attractive than the very limited US supply...the CIA had a shell corporation buy ti from the Russians for the old spy planes.

[GonaSovereign]

firefly sources from Titanium Joe (http://www.titaniumjoe.com/). where their raw material is from, or if they produce everything in-house and don't import some, i do not know. there are some tubes on their site that refer to "american made" though.

That's my new thing of the day. I've passed within a 1/2 mile of there at least 200 times, and had no idea. Guess I should be looking for more ti bikes in Kingston.

[rwsaunders]

In just pure monetary terms, I am assuming that US sourced tubing must be expensive (how expensive -- two fold, three...?). So, anyone know which frame builders use US sourced Ti tubings? Anyone know?

You can purchase US made Ti seamless tubing by the inch for anywhere from $1.60 to $3.60 depending upon the tube diameter. The real cost is of course, working the tube. I once read a story about Serotta where they talked about their tubes being shipped to several locations for various treatments and manipulation prior to being ready for fabrication in their shop.

[cadence90]

Thanks for the link. It was a great read.

So, it does look like, according to Vandermark, the source of the Ti as well as the manufacturing process matters.

While I am not implying that US sourced and manufactured tubing is the best, I would really like to know which Ti framebuilders use US sourced/manufactured tubing. In just pure monetary terms, I am assuming that US sourced tubing must be expensive (how expensive -- two fold, three...?). So, anyone know which frame builders use US sourced Ti tubings?
Anyone know?
Of course the source matters to any reputable ti builder! But I don't think RV meant "source" as in "where in the ground did it come from?" but more as in "who made/certified the tubing?".

I know for certain that Jim Kish would utilize, even in the same frame, ti tubing from Reynolds (UK), Sandvvik (Sweden), Ancotech (US). Columbus (Italy) made ti tubing for a very short time; True Temper (US) for a bit longer. Etc., etc.

As Louis previously stated, a quality builder is going to use quality, verified tubing...where it came from, or even who made it, are not really a concern as much as being certain that the tubes meet/surpass grading qualifications/certifications.

[Peter B]

Titanium can be classified as Grade 9-- 3AL/2V -- if it falls within a range of composition:


Chemical composition (nominal) %

Al: ≤3.5 - 2.5 V: ≤3.0 - 2.0 N: ≤0.02 H: ≤0.013 O: ≤0.12 Fe: 0.25 C: 0.10

So you will inevitably find some degree of variability in the ti alloy and also in the consistency of roundness, straightness and butting (if any) of the drawn tubing across the range of domestic and foreign sources. The experienced builders seem to vary somewhat in opinion as to what extent these affect fabrication and longevity, though US-sourced (i.e. alloyed and drawn) tubing seems universally accepted as top quality. I suspect each builder has preferences related to said quality, consistency, availability, cost, etc. Some specific tube diameters/gauges may be limited in availability, further influencing sourcing options.

Find a reputable builder you trust and trust their selections.

[lookout2015]

Wonder where Lynskey gets theirs?

The little bit I've seen them mention sources, the answer appears to be from all over as fits the specific build (similar to the description in this thread of tube sourcing for Kish)

They also seam weld their own tubes in house at least for their 6/4 tubes (and I'd guess for some of their more exotically shaped stuff also)

[soulspinner]

Kish would be a great person to call about this. I believe he did or does welding on U.S. military vessels.

[oldpotatoe]

So, I have been shopping for a Ti frame and have been talking to a few dealers. I have been told that Moots sources their Ti tubes from the US while many other Ti builders source it from non US sources. I was wondering if there is a difference in quality (whatever "quality" might mean to you) between Ti tubes sourced from different places.

Should this be a valid concern? Should I be aiming for US sourced tubes for reasons other than "mined in the USA"?

Thanks for your insight in advance.

This is anecdotal, but Moots sourced some 'off shore' titanium tubing and went ahead and welded it up. They found it wasn't consistent, welded poorly, that they chalked up to have impurities in it. NOT saying 'off shore' titanium is poor, but these not inexpensive, titanium tubes were a disappointment. So US ti.

BUT scroll down 8 posts..Butch at Moots..asked and answered..

[jemoryl]

Some years ago, I worked for a company that was located just a few miles away from Seven and I called over there to see if they would supply me with a ~1 in length of some of their tubing to run a texture analysis (it's a type of an x-ray diffraction technique) as a teaching tool. They would not supply a sample. Good/bad, right/wrong - that's your call, but I never forgot that.....

It is odd that they wouldn't supply a sample, given that Ti is not all that expensive compared to some materials. When I worked in an academic lab where we built some of our own instruments, there was often a minimum order for some materials. When we inquired about buying the small quantity that we needed (e.g. a machinable ceramic was one I remember), they would often send a free 'sample'.

[nmrt]

it makes sense to me that seven would not. if seven themselves have not performed an x-ray diffraction analysis on the tubes and are taking the word of the certifying agency (which they should, i think), who knows what might have come up on the analysis.

[OtayBW]

It is odd that they wouldn't supply a sample, given that Ti is not all that expensive compared to some materials. When I worked in an academic lab where we built some of our own instruments, there was often a minimum order for some materials. When we inquired about buying the small quantity that we needed (e.g. a machinable ceramic was one I remember), they would often send a free 'sample'.

Ironic, too, because I probably could have provided them some QC/QA intelligence to screen and optimize their materials and suppliers (if they wished). Like I said, I have never been a fan since that experience....

[notsew]

That might have just been a liability decision.

I mean what if you found something questionable, but not terrible, maybe it increases the chance of failure in some small amount. Now they have thousands of bikes out there with an issue they know about and have documentation on (not to mention an expert witness). If they base their information solely on the tube source, I imagine that liability can be shifted, but if they know differently, it certainly changes the game.

Seems like a risk with no reward from their perspective.

[fignon's barber]

One reason people aren't choosing US made tubing is cost and accessibility. It's the same reason my guys use who they use. They get stuff thru Sweden cause they can't get the British stuff at a reasonable cost. And they don't have a large enough supply.

Most people in the US using ti tubing is buying it from Sandvik. Who still makes incredibly good and reliable tubing. Very consistent too. But they are expensive.



I was a young North American Manager at Sandvik from 1986-1997 (unfortunately, I was in the Strip division, not the SpecialMetals div that the bike tubes came from).
I remember posting for the product manager's job when they started the sports products. I had a very good reputation within the company and I was a racing cyclist. I thought I was a logical choice for the position. But company politics being what they were, I wasn't considered because I came from one of the "other" business units.
After they sorted out their organization for the new division, I made a call to the new manager to offer advice. Their goal was to produce finished frames and even bikes, but they had no experience in the bike industry. I explained the need for a marque name, and remember advising them to contact a man in Belgium named Eddy Merckx. I said they will be able to sell millions with that name on the down tube. The response was "no thanks, we will do it our way". They then signed their big deal with Mongoose. Mongoose (sold in Toy's r Us). I think that business lasted 6 months!

[cadence90]

Kish would be a great person to call about this. I believe he did or does welding on U.S. military vessels.
Kish? :confused:

I mentioned Kish in post #22; it would greatly surprise me if he has even been near, let alone actually done any welding on, any U.S. military vessels! He likes to build frames, attend concerts, and play the banjo, a lot.

[soulspinner]

Kish? :confused:

I mentioned Kish in post #22; it would greatly surprise me if he has even been near, let alone actually done any welding on, any U.S. military vessels! He likes to build frames, attend concerts, and play the banjo, a lot.

Read it somewhere, ask him. He, as you know, can wield a torch.

[Butch]

A perspective
There are distinctive differences in 3/2.5 seamless tubing from various sources. As many know, here at Moots we purchase the vast majority of our tubing from Sandvik Special Metals. In my time building titanium frames starting in '92 through today I have worked with material from Sandvik, Ancotech, Haynes, Russia, and China. The US tubing is by far the best material to work with. It is also the most expensive.
In short the biggest differences we see are in the temper, strength, roundness, straightness and the consistency of wall thickness and diameter.
We primarily use tubing in a Cold Work Stress Relieved heat treatment. This is the strongest version of seamless 3/2.5 tubing. Each Lot of Sandvik tubing we buy is tested to meet the minimum 105,000 psi standard for yield strength and 120,000 for ultimate tensile while retaining a minimum elongation of 15%. By comparison annealed tubing has a yield of 75,000. They send certifications to us with each batch of material that tells us the melt source with composition down to a 1/100 of a %, which either comes from Sandvik Sweden or Teledyn Wah Chang in Albany, OR.
To hit the CWSR spec the mill must heat treat the tubing to a temperature with variation of less than 5 degrees in a vacuum oven over the entire length of the tube for a specific amount of time. This is a huge challenge and you get one shot at it. The sheet I am looking at for some chainstay material was cooked for 2 hours at 920 degrees.
The difference this makes is the temper of the material is consistent from piece to piece, foot to foot so that we have complete confidence in working the chainstay (or whatever piece) into the shape we want and need. Each stay comes out the same, no cracking, the bends are the same and the material is as strong as possible. This is important when you are using the thinnest material for the job. This is a big difference between the Chinese material and the US on the market and a main reason we can offer a lifetime warranty on all our bikes, we know exactly what we are working with. This is why Boeing uses US made material.
Having visited the mill in WA and working with the engineers they know our concerns and priorities for the quality and we understand their process to make the tubes, their testing and their challenges. I trust them and I am confident the material is what they say.
At this point there are few builders using US tubing as their primary source of thin walled material. The minimum orders are high as is the cost. Chinese tubing is cheap and plentiful with multiple sources and mills to choose from.
I'll avoid giving a sales pitch here, but all of the material sources we use are integral to the quality of the product we produce.
butch@moots

[OtayBW]

Interesting. Thanks for your perspective, Butch.

Do you ever run into this strain ratio (CSR) reported as an indicator of crystallite orientation/texture in any of the specifications that you see? More highly oriented/textured is supposed to be associated with greater tensile strength, and etc. Thx.

[Jeff N.]

I know about Sandvik and Haynes Ti tubing, and they're both outstanding. Haynes is probably a bit better known. Seven uses Haynes and so does Bill Holland (when it's available) as well as many others. Both are top notch, from what I gather.