Enve Carbon track cracked

[R3awak3n]

Was out on a ride today and when braking the rear wheel was pulsating. Kept ridding because it happens on the front a lot but front is fine. Finally stopped and ran my fingers through the brake track and I can feel the fibers coming out, Its not a crazy crack but I am pretty sure they are toast.

Super bummed out as I got these for a good deal here in the forum about a year ago and put about 1500 miles on em.

What are my options here? I would love to send back to enve but not being the first owner I would not get 50% off and to be honest, even then I cannot really afford it. Thought about lacing them to some light bicycle wheels but as a big guy dont really trust them (specially the hubs are 24 and 20 so no option for more spokes).

As of right now I am thinking of just putting my H+Son archtypes (I will miss the enves, they are awesome, I really enjoyed ridding carbon wheels) on the bike and delacing the powertap and front hub and selling that. What would you do?

[11.4]

Call Enve. Jake and the others there are really good about supporting their product. They'd rather see people on Enve rims than not. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't give you the discount, and if they saw some photos and felt it was a manufacturing defect, they'd simple replace it. I like them for that.

[R3awak3n]

Call Enve. Jake and the others there are really good about supporting their product. They'd rather see people on Enve rims than not. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't give you the discount, and if they saw some photos and felt it was a manufacturing defect, they'd simple replace it. I like them for that.

will do that. I am not sure how old the wheels are before I got them, they seemed in great shape when I got them so I don't know. Worth talking to them about it thats for sure.

[maverick_1]

@R3awak3n

Mind sharing pics of the crack?

Thanks

[R3awak3n]

of course I can. Just took some with the phone, lighting sucks but can take better pictures soon (so I can send to enve). So I just spend a little time with the wheel (earlier I was so busy and pissed when i got home that I did not even look at it properly.

It seems like the brake track is delaminating , it seems like there are bubbles and when you press them I can almost feel the fibers.

Here are the pics
http://i68.tinypic.com/poprp.jpg

http://i67.tinypic.com/se50yp.jpg

[R3awak3n]

sorry for the YUGE pictures but otherwise its hard to see

[regularguy412]

My question would be: Does the crack change shape if you completely deflate the tire? Cuz it kinda looks to me like the outer edge of the rim is being 'bent over' the part closer to the center of the wheel - which is creating slack in the top layer of carbon.

Mike in AR:beer:

[11.4]

Does this happen all the way around the rim? If so, it looks like a manufacturing defect.

[R3awak3n]

My question would be: Does the crack change shape if you completely deflate the tire? Cuz it kinda looks to me like the outer edge of the rim is being 'bent over' the part closer to the center of the wheel - which is creating slack in the top layer of carbon.

Mike in AR:beer:

havent removed the tire, will do it tomorrow and update

[R3awak3n]

Does this happen all the way around the rim? If so, it looks like a manufacturing defect.

not around the whole tire but its delaminating in more than one place on the same brake surface

[kramnnim]

Are those 45 Classics?

[R3awak3n]

Are those 45 Classics?

they are indeed.

[maverick_1]

Sorry, but are those clinchers or tubulars?

[R3awak3n]

Clinchers

[R3awak3n]

emailed enve this morning, they told me they can't do anything because I did not buy the wheels from them. No hard feelings, totally understand and so is life. Won't be ridding enve wheels for a while because I just can't afford em (I would probably buy my next set through em and not second hand because it is nice to have a warranty on something like this)

[Dirtdiggler]

Any chance you could locate a nearby carbon repair shop to repair or purchase resin ?

[drewskey]

emailed enve this morning, they told me they can't do anything because I did not buy the wheels from them. No hard feelings, totally understand and so is life. Won't be ridding enve wheels for a while because I just can't afford em (I would probably buy my next set through em and not second hand because it is nice to have a warranty on something like this)


Why would you reward a company whose product failed and they refused to support?

[Hank Scorpio]

Those look like a delam from high heat. What pads were you running?

[tuscanyswe]

emailed enve this morning, they told me they can't do anything because I did not buy the wheels from them. No hard feelings, totally understand and so is life. Won't be ridding enve wheels for a while because I just can't afford em (I would probably buy my next set through em and not second hand because it is nice to have a warranty on something like this)

Thats response is a surprise to me tbh. I would have thought they would at least give you a discount of some kind towards a replacement rim.

Kinda poor imo but guess we are so used to companies having poor warranties so we just move on without thinking much about it i guess.

[Fatty]

All along the brake track or smaller spots.
Wonder, was a tire muscled on and the rim fatigued at the point where the tire iron bit down?

[DRZRM]

I understand the disappointment here, but when you buy stuff used it does not come with a warranty. Some companies bend over backwards to make you whole, some don't. While beyond the required service is awesome, and we should certainly share when it happens, IMHO no need to badmouth a company that lives by its warranty. One has to take that into account when you buy stuff used, there is a reason you are paying better than 50% off in many cases.

Why would you reward a company whose product failed and they refused to support?

[R3awak3n]

Comapnies are different, TRP for example sent me a new caliper when something was wrong, calipers were bought second hand and no questions asked. Enve does not operate the same way but it would be silly of me to be mad about it, they have a disclaimer and I was well aware that if aomething like this happened I would have no support. Would I be more excited about them had they helped me out? Sure I would sing them praises (like I just did for TRP) but what I will not do is blame em.


I am using black prince pads (apparently enve says if you dont use their pads it voids the warrenty as well, not that I even got to that question with them). I know there are other people out there using those pads and sincerely only reason I was using them is because they are much better than the enve pads. Could be delamination because of heat but it was 30 degrees outside and I rode for 20 minutes when I found that out.


Someone pmed me with a link to a carbon repair place they were happy with, I will shoot them some pictures and see what they say.

[Hank Scorpio]

I have seen Specialized carbon clinchers run with the same pads with similar bubbling. Are you sure it happened on this particular ride?

[mjf]

Comapnies are different, TRP for example sent me a new caliper when something was wrong, calipers were bought second hand and no questions asked. Enve does not operate the same way but it would be silly of me to be mad about it, they have a disclaimer and I was well aware that if aomething like this happened I would have no support. Would I be more excited about them had they helped me out? Sure I would sing them praises (like I just did for TRP) but what I will not do is blame em.


I am using black prince pads (apparently enve says if you dont use their pads it voids the warrenty as well, not that I even got to that question with them). I know there are other people out there using those pads and sincerely only reason I was using them is because they are much better than the enve pads. Could be delamination because of heat but it was 30 degrees outside and I rode for 20 minutes when I found that out.


Someone pmed me with a link to a carbon repair place they were happy with, I will shoot them some pictures and see what they say.

I'm curious though, generalities here, even if you didn't buy from them directly I'm surprised that they wouldn't want to at least see the wheels to determine the mode of failure.

There's a major issue with knock off's but if they can validate that they made them, it seems in their own interest to take care of the product (in some way, even minor at most)

[R3awak3n]

I have seen Specialized carbon clinchers run with the same pads with similar bubbling. Are you sure it happened on this particular ride?

Last time I rode this bike was a coule months ago and the issue was not there. It also was not there at the beggining of the ride so I am like 95% sure.

@mjf-I was surpised too, they pretty much said, we dont deal with non direct buyers, any other question?

I sent them pictures too but no comment on them.

[drewskey]

I understand the disappointment here, but when you buy stuff used it does not come with a warranty. Some companies bend over backwards to make you whole, some don't. While beyond the required service is awesome, and we should certainly share when it happens, IMHO no need to badmouth a company that lives by its warranty. One has to take that into account when you buy stuff used, there is a reason you are paying better than 50% off in many cases.

I didn't say anything about warranty, but rather, support. And from the rest of the thread, it sounds like they offered zero support.

Edit: Which sucks for OP.

[adrien]

How many miles are on the rims? It almost looks like the beginning of their being worn out, though it's odd it would start in the back.

Would be great to know what pads you're running, too.

[R3awak3n]

How many miles are on the rims? It almost looks like the beginning of their being worn out, though it's odd it would start in the back.

Would be great to know what pads you're running, too.

pads are swiss stop black prince and exactly, you would think the front would go before the back. I do not know how many miles are on the rim, I put about 1500, do not know how many miles the previous owner did but when I got them they looked to be in good condition and the rear track was in good shape, better than the front.

[R3awak3n]

good enves :bike: :butt:

http://i64.tinypic.com/jj1ret.jpg

on the bright side, I will have good braking again, the EE brakes do a good job but still broke poorly with the carbon. Gotta look at the positives I guess.

[El Chaba]

Why would you reward a company whose product failed and they refused to support?

Screw the warranty, the PRODUCT failed....If it was not the result of abuse, a wreck, or excessive wear it failed in normal use...for which there is no excuse....Move on and be thankful that you weren't injured as a result...

[pdmtong]

Screw the warranty, the PRODUCT failed....If it was not the result of abuse, a wreck, or excessive wear it failed in normal use...for which there is no excuse....Move on and be thankful that you weren't injured as a result...

products are not perfect and anything shipping in volume can and sometimes does fail. that's life.

I see no reason for a company to extend support beyond the original owner.

buy used, take your chances. I buy used and that is an assumed risk always.

[El Chaba]

products are not perfect and anything shipping in volume can and sometimes does fail. that's life.

I see no reason for a company to extend support beyond the original owner.

buy used, take your chances. I buy used and that is an assumed risk always.

I'm sort of "one and done" with cycling product failures...YMMV....

[adub]

products are not perfect and anything shipping in volume can and sometimes does fail. that's life.

I see no reason for a company to extend support beyond the original owner.

buy used, take your chances. I buy used and that is an assumed risk always.

Ya this could be said for average, mediocre companies that don't think beyond what they are legally bound to do.

I'd bet on a crash replacement discount they still make out OK and get a new set of their wheels out.. Speculation on my part but I do have an idea of their margins.

Bad move on Enve's part, IMO.

[happycampyer]

It's not clear to me that this wasn't caused by misuse--not necessarily by the OP, but by the previous owner. This is one of the problems with buying carbon wheels secondhand. Did the original owner use the correct brake pads? Switch between aluminum and carbon rims with the same pads? Expose the rims to excessive braking/heat buildup?

I'm surprised that Enve didn't want to see the rims to evaluate them. I have had rims replaced by Enve, and my customer service experience with Enve has been good. I worked through a dealer that does a ton of business with Enve, so perhaps that made a difference.

[pdmtong]

Ya this could be said for average, mediocre companies that don't think beyond what they are legally bound to do.

I'd bet on a crash replacement discount they still make out OK and get a new set of their wheels out.. Speculation on my part but I do have an idea of their margins.

Bad move on Enve's part, IMO.

i get that, and that they are not going to offer crash/damage replace en masse to everyone from primary to secondary buyers and instead keep it on a case-case basis to manage their exposure.

to the OPs misfortune, they passed on helping him. I think that is unfortunate but not a "bad move".

[R3awak3n]

I think there is no right or wrong. They are in the right to do nothing about it and that is why I am ok with it but yes, they would actually profit in the long run to have cared a bit more about the situation.

I would still buy a set of enve wheels, they are excellent but I would also look at other brands, I would not be set on enve at this point. Had them cared a bit more I would probably go with them and not look else where.

That said, right now I cannot afford $3000 wheels (I would buy the Eriksen frame that is on the classifieds before dropping anything close to that on wheels) but I may have the funds in the near future.

But again, I am ok with their decision and not mad at all about it.

I did just look at some light bicycle rims, will probably sell the power tap that is on the enves and get some rims to lace to some nice 32/28 hole hubs.

@happycampyer - I do not know what the last owner used or did with the wheels, they did come with enve pads so I believe that is what he used. The wheels looked to be in great shape when they got to me. Maybe it is my fault for using black prince pads instead of enve pads, could have been but man do the enve pads brake poorly.

[adub]

i get that, and that they are not going to offer crash/damage replace en masse to everyone from primary to secondary buyers and instead keep it on a case-case basis to manage their exposure.

to the OPs misfortune, they passed on helping him. I think that is unfortunate but not a "bad move".

I see it as a bad move.

Alas it is consistent with the life-cycle of many successful companies such as Enve.
Good idea (american made carbon rim) produce a good product, hard work and customer service driven
build a great brand, make alot of cake.
Sell to bigger company that has the same (somewhat background as enve) and make a bunch more cake
Now you've become an even bigger "sucky" company that the HR dept and Accounting dept run.
The new owners try to keep the integrity of the "niche" brand, but it's waaaay different as a spreadsheet producing accountant and your HR dept know how things should be done. (big company stuff you know)

How much do businesses's pay/invest with marketing/advertising companies for new strategy and how to mold public perception and keep the integrity of a brand?
The "thing" that advertising/branding firms sell to big companies is what the seller of the original company took with them along with the fat check.

If enve gives a discount on a new wheelset when a 2nd hand wheelset crapped out (whatever the reason) is worth a bunch because of discussions as this on the www, coffee shop chats amongst friends, club rides, again IMO.

Problem is the results of such stellar customer service is not quantifiable by an accountant through a spreadsheet- It only shows as a "top line cost" Which any good accountant wants to reduce. A customer service oriented employee that would offer a discount as outlined above would be weeded out by the HR dept.

[happycampyer]

I had forgotten that Enve was acquired by Amer Sports. It's interesting that "amer" means "bitter" in French. Perhaps that's their approach to customer service.

[R3awak3n]

I had forgotten that Enve was acquired by Amer Sports. It's interesting that "amer" means "bitter" in French. Perhaps that's their approach to customer service.


ah, that is actually pretty funny. I had completely forgotten that mavic acquired Enve.

[pdmtong]

I see it as a bad move.

Alas it is consistent with the life-cycle of many successful companies such as Enve.
Good idea (american made carbon rim) produce a good product, hard work and customer service driven
build a great brand, make alot of cake.
Sell to bigger company that has the same (somewhat background as enve) and make a bunch more cake
Now you've become an even bigger "sucky" company that the HR dept and Accounting dept run.
The new owners try to keep the integrity of the "niche" brand, but it's waaaay different as a spreadsheet producing accountant and your HR dept know how things should be done. (big company stuff you know)

How much do businesses's pay/invest with marketing/advertising companies for new strategy and how to mold public perception and keep the integrity of a brand?
The "thing" that advertising/branding firms sell to big companies is what the seller of the original company took with them along with the fat check.

If enve gives a discount on a new wheelset when a 2nd hand wheelset crapped out (whatever the reason) is worth a bunch because of discussions as this on the www, coffee shop chats amongst friends, club rides, again IMO.

Problem is the results of such stellar customer service is not quantifiable by an accountant through a spreadsheet- It only shows as a "top line cost" Which any good accountant wants to reduce. A customer service oriented employee that would offer a discount as outlined above would be weeded out by the HR dept.

looking at this with even more sterility, the low level guys play it by the books since they don't want to be found out as jeopardizing margin, so the "short term" safe approach is to deny a claim where as the market building approach is to do as you suggest. maybe they dont offer 50% but why not 35%? point is, they could get way more customers by handling one offs in a positive way and zero incremental by following the "rules".

[kramnnim]

I wonder if the black prince pads create too much heat. If they work better than Enve gray, it would be because of increased friction, which would mean more heat?

[R3awak3n]

I wonder if the black prince pads create too much heat. If they work better than Enve gray, it would be because of increased friction, which would mean more heat?

its possible but the wheels were fine all summer long in really hot temperatures, it was 30 degrees outside and I descended maybe 1 mile (it was pretty steep though).

I did just remove the pads and the pad with the bubbly side was half more worn than the other pad (I do think it was because I was braking on a busted surface but you never know)

[adub]

I missed the last step in the American companies successful evolution- Off-shore all production.
Paste a sticker on product that says "designed in USA"

This should fool most. Sad but mostly true.

[simonov]

I wonder if the black prince pads create too much heat. If they work better than Enve gray, it would be because of increased friction, which would mean more heat?

Enve has articles on their site stating that use of their black pads, which are designed for the new textured brake tracks, will void the warranty of their non-textured (older) rims. I wouldn't be surprised if the black prince pads are similar and could cause issues on older rims, particularly on the classics.

[hokoman]

its possible but the wheels were fine all summer long in really hot temperatures, it was 30 degrees outside and I descended maybe 1 mile (it was pretty steep though).

Just a shot in the dark, but maybe the very cold ambient temperature affected the carbon when it heated up really quickly in a short amount of time... bummer regardless.

[brockd15]

A new Enve wheelset may be out of the question, but can you get a replacement rear rim and lace that to the PT hub? No need to replace the whole shebang is there?

[R3awak3n]

A new Enve wheelset may be out of the question, but can you get a replacement rear rim and lace that to the PT hub? No need to replace the whole shebang is there?

I could but at 24 hole I think I want something a little more stout. Those enve wheels are pretty strong with no rider weight limit but I am not sure I would trust most rims with 24 hole under my fat ass.

[kam]

i just got a new set of ses 3.4 rims rebuilt to my cx-ray/king r45 hubs by enve composites.

my 2 year old 3.4 rear rim (bought/built by luxe wheelworks) developed a crack, and the brakes would pulsate when braking.

the rims back then (not sure about now days) were laid up in quarters. on my rear rim, the lay up was pretty thin where the joints were. combine the thin lay up and 100psi and just general use, and it was bound to fail.

enve warrantied/rebuilt the rear wheel at no cost to me. the new rim has a textured braking surface. they offered to replace the front rim and rebuild the wheel for $400 on "crash replacement" so i could have a matching set, and i was all for it. the front rim i bought off ebay and built it myself.

looking over the new 3.4 set i have. the lay up is way more uniform....no thin spots.

good luck!

[R3awak3n]

i just got a new set of ses 3.4 rims rebuilt to my cx-ray/king r45 hubs by enve composites.

my 2 year old 3.4 rear rim (bought/built by luxe wheelworks) developed a crack, and the brakes would pulsate when braking.

the rims back then (not sure about now days) were laid up in quarters. on my rear rim, the lay up was pretty thin where the joints were. combine the thin lay up and 100psi and just general use, and it was bound to fail.

enve warrantied/rebuilt the rear wheel at no cost to me. the new rim has a textured braking surface. they offered to replace the front rim and rebuild the wheel for $400 on "crash replacement" so i could have a matching set, and i was all for it. the front rim i bought off ebay and built it myself.

looking over the new 3.4 set i have. the lay up is way more uniform....no thin spots.

good luck!


thanks kam. No luck, already unlaced the wheels from the powertap. Going to sell the powertap and build myself a nice alloy wheelset :)