Tour Down Under to replace podium girls with junior riders

[weisan]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tour-down-under-to-replace-podium-girls-with-junior-riders/

[stephenmarklay]

The kissing he cheek thing is just going to get weird now.

[AllanVarcoe]

Ugh, this is the world we live in now! Haha!

[Dead Man]

Yea.. I don't know what the crap it's gonna look like, but I do know the world is gonna look a LOT different for my kids than it did for me.

Whatever... I'm nostalgic for the world I grew up in, but the only thing that stays the same is that everything changes. Resistance is futile. Other cliches.

It won't even be anti-objectification for our kids, it'll just be non-objectification.

[AllanVarcoe]

Yea.. I don't know what the crap it's gonna look like, but I do know the world is gonna look a LOT different for my kids than it did for me.

Whatever... I'm nostalgic for the world I grew up in, but the only thing that stays the same is that everything changes. Resistance is futile. Other cliches.

It won't even be anti-objectification for our kids, it'll just be non-objectification.

As long as my son gets to at least SEE riders on a podium and not this "Everyone Gets a Medal" bull $#!T!

[ultraman6970]

PC is the thing lately, sucks.

[FlashUNC]

PC is the thing lately, sucks.

Plenty of places on the Internet to get your T&A.

Well done TDU. About time someone joined the 21st century.

[ultraman6970]

Odd you mean? Always been podium girls... is going to look odd. Is not that the president is giving you a medal, in which case is not odd but a dude in the podium, and that dude is a junior will be even more odd, even if is a junior girl, in which case might be even worse because will spark even more comments.

I totally see now the girl from the boxing match swapped for a dude in jeans and a shirt just because is PC :) Welcome to the 21st century :)

This reminds me all the PC episodes from south park, is correct for a girl this and that but when a dude does x or y... the complains starts :) I know im getting older but in events there must be a podium girl. Podium dude is just plain odd :D

[acoffin]

I'm a straight as an arrow middle aged male and I have always thought podium girls were odd, maybe even a little creepy. I mean, why are they there? Guess I'm in the minority here, but it's progress in my book.

[Neil]

Plenty of places on the Internet to get your T&A.

Well done TDU. About time someone joined the 21st century.

I approve of this post.

[Llewellyn]

Great idea by TDU, podium girls belong in the past :hello:

[numbskull]

I'm a straight as an arrow middle aged male and I have always thought podium girls were odd, maybe even a little creepy. I mean, why are they there? Guess I'm in the minority here, but it's progress in my book.

This

[Tony T]

Would be better to just have the stage winner come to the podium and take questions from reporters
(and not in his racing kit, as this may promote body issues :)).

Replacing the girls with junior riders to put a jersey on the winner and present him with flowers (or a trophy) is just silly.

.

[CampyorBust]

Oh come on Shelly, its not like the podium girls are in G strings tongue kissing the winners. A harmless peck on the cheek by two beautiful women oh the horror! I guess all the uglies and Trunchbulls in the audience are feeling insecure, or worse…

[1centaur]

If they must put the jersey on in a podium ceremony, have somebody from the winner's team do it (soigneur, teammate or manager) to symbolize the team's victory. After all, that's what would happen if the jersey was put on BEFORE walking out on the stage.

"Podium girls" seems like somebody's whim, not like a well thought-out plan to increase revenues by glamorizing a sport that could use some to attract new viewers. Tradition never justified anything. If it does not make sense, don't do it.

[bobswire]

PC my arse,PC paranoia got Trump elected though I don't know what all those frightened "make America great again" folk have to worry about they own the vast majority of guns. :help:

[dzxc]

The title made me happy. Some of the responses made me lose a little faith in the world and realize this forum is likely mostly pro Trump. To be clear: Women aren't just objects and shouldn't be seen as such. Podium girls were always a little creepy.

[Aaron O]

Plenty of places on the Internet to get your T&A.

Well done TDU. About time someone joined the 21st century.

+1...

And everyone hates "PC", until it's their oxe getting gored.

[fuzzalow]

Getting rid of podium girls is the right thing to do. I don't see it as some form of PC gone amok but as a normal reflection of society at large in how women contribute equally to society. As such, women cannot be viewed through a prism of podium ceremony that exposes beauty while ignores brains.

Podium traditions are imageries too simple of women that live in the complexity of modern times. I don't see podium girls as neccesarily exploitative but certainly behind the times.

PC is easily derided because it is a blunt force object often used to advance progressive liberal agendas - although there's nothin' wrong with having an agenda. It is all about where and how it is used. And sometimes the agenda is ludicrously bleeding edge but no one can be faulted for trying. That's why I view riddance of podium girls as not even PC - it isn't PC because society has already gone way past this kinda sexist simplicity and PC is off chasing the next big fish to fry in crafting somebody's idea of utopia.

[AngryScientist]

i think whoever hands out the awards on the podium should be a person of significance somehow. perhaps the race director, someone from the racing sanctioning body, the city mayor, or maybe a previous stage winner or cycling champion.

junior racers? i dont get that.

[bobswire]

Getting rid of podium girls is the right thing to do. I don't see it as some form of PC gone amok but as a normal reflection of society at large in how women contribute equally to society. As such, women cannot be viewed through a prism of podium ceremony that exposes beauty while ignores brains.

Podium traditions are imageries too simple of women that live in the complexity of modern times. I don't see podium girls as neccesarily exploitative but certainly behind the times.

PC is easily derided because it is a blunt force object often used to advance progressive liberal agendas - although there's nothin' wrong with having an agenda. It is all about where and how it is used. And sometimes the agenda is ludicrously bleeding edge but no one can be faulted for trying. That's why I view riddance of podium girls as not even PC - it isn't PC because society has already gone way past this kinda sexist simplicity and PC is off chasing the next big fish to fry in crafting somebody's idea of utopia.

That's what I said in less words. :D PC my arse,PC paranoia got Trump elected though I don't know what all those frightened "make America great again" folk have to worry about they own the vast majority of guns. :help:

[fuzzalow]

That's what I said in less words. :D

Brilliant minds think alike.:beer:

[CampyorBust]

this forum is likely mostly pro Trump.

You can't be serious, the liberal pro establishment pro globalist bias of Paceline is so blatantly obvious. If you are looking for an even more protected liberal safe space, go visit road bike review. BTW thanks for bringing politics into it fellas, you start it and I will finish it…

A liberal government replacing a subtly sexualized position with children, say it aint so! Then again given the sexual fancies of the elite, not entirely surprising is it?

https://youtu.be/9jtybQS0eIA

Podium women fine! Podium Men ok! Assless chaps LOL! Thigh high leather boots Sweet! Shoot even pants suits I am ok with! But please lets keep the kids out of it.

[Tony]

That was a disturbing video, and the next one after it.

[FlashUNC]

i think whoever hands out the awards on the podium should be a person of significance somehow. perhaps the race director, someone from the racing sanctioning body, the city mayor, or maybe a previous stage winner or cycling champion.

junior racers? i dont get that.

No different than the EPL players walking out with local kids onto the pitch before a match. Meet your heroes and all that.

I do agree it's be more impactful to have, says, de Vlaeminck hand out the Roubaix cobble than have some podium girls.

[Aaron O]

PC my arse,PC paranoia got Trump elected though I don't know what all those frightened "make America great again" folk have to worry about they own the vast majority of guns. :help:

"They" also have disproportionate political power, more subsidies and over representation. When it's someone else saying don't call me bad words, it's PC and you're overly sensitive. When you insult something they care about, it's establishment elites persecuting their culture.

It seems like capitalist ideals only apply when it's someone else struggling. A cynic might suggest that they've failed to compete, adapt and have a seeming sense of entitlement encouraged by advantage/privilege.

[ultraman6970]

When the 1st pictures of a junior boy or girl shows up you guys will see that will be more odd than the usual girl kissing the rider.

[Louis]

Just because something is a "tradition" doesn't mean that it's right.

Men like to check out hot young women.
Men have power.
Therefore we have podium girls.

Had we been a matriarchal society stuff like that (and a lot worse) would never happen.

Good riddance.

[rzthomas]

This is fantastic news.

Can't wait to see the "tradition" go away.

[Dead Man]

Let me ask the stupid question .. What's wrong with podium girls?

[witcombusa]

They are models. They are being paid to look good. Is this some kind of mystery to people? SEX sells and promoters hire attractive (hopefully) girls/women to make the podium look better for both the spectators present and pictures for history. This is done almost everywhere. Don't look at them if it bothers you... :crap:

[Aaron O]

They are models. They are being paid to look good. Is this some kind of mystery to people? SEX sells and promoters hire attractive (hopefully) girls/women to make the podium look better for both the spectators present and pictures for history. This is done almost everywhere. Don't look at them if it bothers you... :crap:

Or ask the event to adapt and change to more respectful and diverse audiences. It's awfully easy to say "go screw off" when you're the one getting every benefit and being catered to. You have the luxury of not caring about how you're viewed.

If you don't like the change, and it bothers you - maybe you should found your own event :) Without expecting privilege, increased subsidy and out-sized leverage.

:crap:

[buddybikes]

My wife views the stage winner as an object... Ask your wife

[sitzmark]

My wife views the stage winner as an object... Ask your wife

Yup.

The sexuality/desirability on display is the winner. The alpha male(s). Observed in nature, females of any species seem to find dominant males attractive. Lanterne Rouge - good luck ... no kisses or attention for you.

It's silly and meaningless. Do away with it and be done. Cycling always finds a way to diminish it's appeal and remain an also ran sport. The dominant (professional and amateur) sports are good at the entertainment component. Football, basketball, baseball - it's about more than just what's going on in the field of play. Hockey less so, but still a "show". It's a choice. So take the fluff out of cycling, compete win/lose, be presented with your medal/trophy from a senior level person of the event governing body (as long as it isn't a woman in a dress) and go home. Done. The less cycling is a show, the more it keeps the corrupting money out of the sport. Of course it also means less payout money and less opportunity for making a living at the sport, but that's life.

vive la vie sans filles podiums!

[Dead Man]

My wife views the stage winner as an object... Ask your wife

She said she didn't really care.

So that didn't help

[CunegoFan]

Let me ask the stupid question .. What's wrong with podium girls?

SJWs are upset that empowered women seek out jobs that SJWs disapprove of so they do their best to to disempower those women by taking the opportunity away, and all the while crowing about how morally superior they are to everyone else.

[gdw]

Winter has definitely arrived at the Paceline.

[FlashUNC]

SJWs are upset that empowered women seek out jobs that SJWs disapprove of so they do they best to take that opportunity away.

Super empowering, none more empowering.

http://cdn.media.cyclingnews.com/2013/04/01/1/saganpinch_1_670.jpg

[Dead Man]

SJWs are upset that empowered women seek out jobs that SJWs disapprove of so they do they best to take that opportunity away.

SJWs? Lolz.. I'm a roofer, bro. Are we to the point of just assuming everyone has a social science degree from the University of Wikipedia?

Pretend I have no interest in social theory and rephrase the answer, if you would..

(Or would I just not be worth your time, at that point?)

[witcombusa]

Or ask the event to adapt and change to more respectful and diverse audiences. It's awfully easy to say "go screw off" when you're the one getting every benefit and being catered to. You have the luxury of not caring about how you're viewed.



No one watches cycling as it is... just (some) cycling geeks...

"getting every benefit and being catered to"... *the*???

[FlashUNC]

No one watches cycling as it is... just (some) cycling geeks...

"getting every benefit and being catered to"... *the*???

And maybe no one watches because of retrograde views on stuff?

I dunno, just spitballing here.

[Red Tornado]

The title made me happy. Some of the responses made me lose a little faith in the world and realize this forum is likely mostly pro Trump. To be clear: Women aren't just objects and shouldn't be seen as such. Podium girls were always a little creepy.
THIS forum mostly pro-Trump? I think not. I'd say a good 2/3+ is anti-Trump. Read any of the recent political threads & comments? Based on the cycling forums I'm on/read and discussions with my local fellow riders/friends, I'd venture to say the majority of the cycling community is left-leaning. Not saying that's good or bad, just a conclusion based on observation.
I do however agree wholeheartedly with your comment on women as objects. Even if they're willingly up there, the idea it conveys just doesn't resonate with me - or my wife.
Just my opinions.... Feel free to disagree.

[merlincustom1]

It's silly and meaningless. Do away with it and be done. Cycling always finds a way to diminish it's appeal and remain an also ran sport. The dominant (professional and amateur) sports are good at the entertainment component. Football, basketball, baseball - it's about more than just what's going on in the field of play. Hockey less so, but still a "show". It's a choice. So take the fluff out of cycling, compete win/lose, be presented with your medal/trophy from a senior level person of the event governing body (as long as it isn't a woman in a dress) and go home. Done. The less cycling is a show, the more it keeps the corrupting money out of the sport. Of course it also means less payout money and less opportunity for making a living at the sport, but that's life.

vive la vie sans filles podiums!

You purport to find podium girls meaningless but the rest of your post ascribes nothing but negative meaning to them. What is the corrupting money of which you speak, and what do podium girls have to do with it? Professional cycling, like all of professional sport, combines elite talent with various means of selling that product to the public. Take away the pizzaz, take away the viewership, take away the ad money, take away the sponsors, take away the rider's salary, is that it? Just go watch your local Cat 3 race then. And what say you if one day the senior level person of the event is a woman in a dress? Podium girls are professional models. This work is an easy gig for them. One day it's a phone call to work at a race, the next it's a photo shoot, or a runway, or a car show, or biting into a Wendy's hamburger. Sometimes a pretty girl in a dress is just a pretty girl in a dress.

[unterhausen]

I'm a straight as an arrow middle aged male and I have always thought podium girls were odd, maybe even a little creepy. I mean, why are they there? Guess I'm in the minority here, but it's progress in my book.In the tour de suisse, the only woman I appreciated was the one that showed up in the overalls every day. She seemed to be the only one that was genuinely having fun.
I expect that this will become a lot less common in the future. Just to expand on that a little, sponsors don't really want to be involved with displays like a podium girl. You can disagree if they are right, but I am thinking sports is one of the few places where most companies have to deal with a tradition like this. Established of any size companies almost never have a woman that is there just to look pretty in a dress in their promotional activities or advertising. They certainly use attractive women, but they have plausible deniability. We just aren't going back.

[Aaron O]

THIS forum mostly pro-Trump? I think not. I'd say a good 2/3+ is anti-Trump. Read any of the recent political threads & comments? Based on the cycling forums I'm on/read and discussions with my local fellow riders/friends, I'd venture to say the majority of the cycling community is left-leaning. Not saying that's good or bad, just a conclusion based on observation.
I do however agree wholeheartedly with your comment on women as objects. Even if they're willingly up there, the idea it conveys just doesn't resonate with me - or my wife.
Just my opinions.... Feel free to disagree.

I'm not arguing/disagreeing with you...just making an observation/comment because of what you said...

I don't think the words left/right conservative/liberal really have much meaning anymore...especially in relation to specific parties/politicians. I don't think Trump is conservative in many ways, and while I generally am called a liberal, I'm far more traditional capitalist/free markets than what Trump espouses. Of course what he espoused changed daily depending on who he was talking to. I'm very pro-status quo and reject radical change in general...which is an inherently conservative approach.

Each party is a large tent of varied interests that are supposed to compromise with one another in nominating a candidate. The radicalized environment, extreme gerrymandering and $$$s have skewed that internal compromise in both parties...and both sides have extremists who, increasingly, want multi parties (apparently under the delusion that would mean they get more of what they want).

While Trump/Clinton did become, MOSTLY, a traditional democrat/republican election...and while the impact of the "angry white blue collar middle class" has been exaggerated...I think that's due to the irrational behavior of voters who mostly vote the party their parents voted for without much thought to issues. There's some BS thrown out to justify the decision, but the BS isn't consistent. It's almost elections by figure head/proxy with platforms related to instinctive emotion.

[Schmed]

I can appreciate a beautiful woman just like I can appreciate art, can't I? Like the beauty of ballet or opera or a play.

Therefore, podium girls are like art to me, and I enjoy art.

(tongue in cheek, but better than my original thought which was... 'who cares? If a pretty girl wants to be a podium girl, so be it. It's her choice.')

[gasman]

I'm not arguing/disagreeing with you...just making an observation/comment because of what you said...

I don't think the words left/right conservative/liberal really have much meaning anymore...especially in relation to specific parties/politicians. I don't think Trump is conservative in many ways, and while I generally am called a liberal, I'm far more traditional capitalist/free markets than what Trump espouses. Of course what he espoused changed daily depending on who he was talking to. I'm very pro-status quo and reject radical change in general...which is an inherently conservative approach.

Each party is a large tent of varied interests that are supposed to compromise with one another in nominating a candidate. The radicalized environment, extreme gerrymandering and $$$s have skewed that internal compromise in both parties...and both sides have extremists who, increasingly, want multi parties (apparently under the delusion that would mean they get more of what they want).

While Trump/Clinton did become, MOSTLY, a traditional democrat/republican election...and while the impact of the "angry white blue collar middle class" has been exaggerated...I think that's due to the irrational behavior of voters who mostly vote the party their parents voted for without much thought to issues. There's some BS thrown out to justify the decision, but the BS isn't consistent. It's almost elections by figure head/proxy with platforms related to instinctive emotion.

Please, while you are very polite in what you are saying let's not go down the politics road.

OT- While i love looking at a beautiful woman I can't argue with what they want to do in the Tour Down Under. Sounds reasonable to me.
I guess the juniors could just give the winners a high five or a fist bump or who knows ?

[fuzzalow]

They are models. They are being paid to look good. Is this some kind of mystery to people? SEX sells and promoters hire attractive (hopefully) girls/women to make the podium look better for both the spectators present and pictures for history. This is done almost everywhere. Don't look at them if it bothers you... :crap:

That you carry, believe and behave in a manner consistent and reflective of the attitude given in your post is completely up to you. It is a free country and you have the right to do as you believe. Keep it legal and you are good to go! How receptive you could be to change these attitudes is likewise, also up to you.

But the way things were is hardly a reason for keeping thing the way they are. We are all products of the times we had come of age in. But life progresses. Anyone can choose to change. Or not.

Some outdated attitudes on gender might be inherited and ingrained as a generational legacy from a time preceding cultural change. For example the mores surrounding gender exhibited by men the age of Roger Ailes or Donald Trump: they might believe there is no reason to give up their gender privilege if they either don't want to or don't have to. But as we know, sometimes they will stubbornly behave in ways that is simply unacceptable by any standard. True even back then and even if they suffered no consequences.

But that they could get away with it then never made it right. In the modern world it just isn't done - look how fast Fox dumped Ailes. That Trump got more leeway for similar behaviour is IMO reflective to the priority in the desires of his voters for what they hope to get out of him.

Some of these attitudes may be induced to change because of things that happen & alter life. For example:
You become a husband and must now deal with having respect for your wife. This would be done in pure self-interest. Or not.
You become a father of daughters and cannot accept your offspring as capable of less potential and subject to debasement simply by virtue of their gender. This would be done in pure self-interest. Or not.

I don't know how old you are. I don't know what your life situation is. I am responding to what I perceive as indifference stated in your post and not as directly to, or about, you. But life progresses and life does not exist in a figurative vacuum - nothing stays the same.

And if you were to somehow believe otherwise then live accordingly too. It's your life.

[sitzmark]

You purport to find podium girls meaningless but the rest of your post ascribes nothing but negative meaning to them. What is the corrupting money of which you speak, and what do podium girls have to do with it? Professional cycling, like all of professional sport, combines elite talent with various means of selling that product to the public. Take away the pizzaz, take away the viewership, take away the ad money, take away the sponsors, take away the rider's salary, is that it? Just go watch your local Cat 3 race then. And what say you if one day the senior level person of the event is a woman in a dress? Podium girls are professional models. This work is an easy gig for them. One day it's a phone call to work at a race, the next it's a photo shoot, or a runway, or a car show, or biting into a Wendy's hamburger. Sometimes a pretty girl in a dress is just a pretty girl in a dress.

That's the way I see it too, but read the thread and a majority see a pretty girl in a dress looking pretty as a problem.

Never said the "podium girls" themselves are meaningless. The pageantry and the "show", of which they are a part, is meaningless if all one wants to focus on is competition. So if that's what the cycling community wants - get rid of the pageantry and yes all racing is like Cat 3 races - show up, do your race and go home. Competition period end. Anything beyond that is entertainment. With entertainment comes promotion and sponsorship and money and pressure to win and cheating to win and .... corrupting influence.

Senior level event person in a dress .. shouldn't happen. Should be rules against it because it is a slippery slope to hiring senior level talent for reintroducing beauty into the equation. That or very strict dress codes. In the same vein, no makeup on stage either - for men or women.

[gemship]

I can appreciate a beautiful woman just like I can appreciate art, can't I? Like the beauty of ballet or opera or a play.

Therefore, podium girls are like art to me, and I enjoy art.

(tongue in cheek, but better than my original thought which was... 'who cares? If a pretty girl wants to be a podium girl, so be it. It's her choice.')

Count me as one more in the "who cares" camp. Although I have to say and it's not indifference, I don't care if your a straight guy or whatever gal pretty women on the big stage are not only easy on the eyes and photogenic but they are also a safe bet. No one truly gets creeped out by pretty women, sorry but that is just BS. Take any news station across the country and they have a whole lotta pretty women giving the news.

[witcombusa]

Fuzz, "Some outdated attitudes on gender"??? He's what I've got, there are X's and Y's. Male and Female, and that's all the choices there will ever be.
Neither gets more or less respect than they earn.

And what any of that have to do with models earning a days pay because the promoter wants them there is beyond me.

[Steelman]

I'm a straight as an arrow middle aged male and I have always thought podium girls were odd, maybe even a little creepy. I mean, why are they there? Guess I'm in the minority here, but it's progress in my book.

They are there to attract attention to the sponsors of the race. Yes, kinda silly, like Hooters, but, nothing personal, just business.

Now, the times they are a changin, perhaps the corporate sponsors of the TDU requested the change.

[fuzzalow]

Fuzz, "Some outdated attitudes on gender"??? He's what I've got, there are X's and Y's. Male and Female, and that's all the choices there will ever be.
Neither gets more or less respect than they earn.

And what any of that have to do with models earning a days pay because the promoter wants them there is beyond me.

Yeah witcombusa, we can simply agree to disagree.

Pretty sure we have completely different ways of looking at the world and how we navigate through it. If we were hangin' out at the bar instead of typing words into a forum, I'd be interested to hear your views on a lotta things.

What a hoot to try to understand somebody else's bubble. What if my bubble was wrong? What if I could make my bubble better by understanding something about your bubble? HaHa! Life is a mystery and I'm always searching.

Be well, see you 'round campus.

[Dead Man]

Been sitting here in an empty office on this wet saturday eating cookies thinking about what exactly the problem is with podium girls. Totally open to the idea that there IS something wrong with it. I can't really come up with anything.

And I think the conflict is this: Many progressive-feminists find it annoying that that there are still women who would take the job, and that there are still men who would want to give the job.

And that's it. The existence of podium girls is a highly visible affront to the various intertwined, often contradictory, collective progressive feminist intellectual elite agenda.

Would probably be less of a problem if it wasn't for those conflicts within this lump collective of sub-agendas, perhaps it'd be easier for the rest of us to understand.

So anyway, my conclusion.... there isn't actually anything wrong with it, at least not in ANY kind of quantifiable way - couple guys have already made withdrawals from social theory to construct vague arguments... and seems that's really about the best anyone can do.

Is it exploitative? If both parties are consensual (generally enthusiastic, I am sure), and mutually benefited from the exchange of standing around looking pretty for cash, then there's no exploitation. Again - not in any kind of tangible way.. you can dig around in your women's studies textbook for all sorts of constructed ways and reasons it's somehow exploitative, if you want. I guess.

Is it somehow regressive? No... it's still (if barely) the status quo... so they're not taking any steps back. Just resisting a slowly expanding air of disdain by keeping them. Cycling has some held traditions, like any old sport.. don't expect everyone to immediately change because some people are annoyed. But that's just impatience on the part of those wanting the world to change. It's still happening.

I can't really come up with anything else.

What am I missing?

[Tony T]

"South Australian government withdrew its support of the use of models on the podium in a drive to improve body image."


Having a top fit cyclist in spandex receiving an award does not improve my body image!

I say do away with the award for every stage win (my body image can take it for just the overall win)

[acoffin]

Been sitting here in an empty office on this wet saturday eating cookies thinking about what exactly the problem is with podium girls. Totally open to the idea that there IS something wrong with it. I can't really come up with anything.

And I think the conflict is this: Many progressive-feminists find it annoying that that there are still women who would take the job, and that there are still men who would want to give the job.

And that's it. The existence of podium girls is a highly visible affront to the various intertwined, often contradictory, collective progressive feminist intellectual elite agenda.

Would probably be less of a problem if it wasn't for those conflicts within this lump collective of sub-agendas, perhaps it'd be easier for the rest of us to understand.

So anyway, my conclusion.... there isn't actually anything wrong with it, at least not in ANY kind of quantifiable way - couple guys have already made withdrawals from social theory to construct vague arguments... and seems that's really about the best anyone can do.

Is it exploitative? If both parties are consensual (generally enthusiastic, I am sure), and mutually benefited from the exchange of standing around looking pretty for cash, then there's no exploitation. Again - not in any kind of tangible way.. you can dig around in your women's studies textbook for all sorts of constructed ways and reasons it's somehow exploitative, if you want. I guess.

Is it somehow regressive? No... it's still (if barely) the status quo... so they're not taking any steps back. Just resisting a slowly expanding air of disdain by keeping them. Cycling has some held traditions, like any old sport.. don't expect everyone to immediately change because some people are annoyed. But that's just impatience on the part of those wanting the world to change. It's still happening.

I can't really come up with anything else.

What am I missing?

I think it's pretty simple really. It's an objectification of women. They have no other reason to be there than to act as objects to look at. I'm not saying that objectification is not all around us, but as a society were have been moving away from it for a while now, at least in the mainstream.

Why is objectification a bad thing? It all seems so harmless, right? Because if you view something as an object without recognizing it's merits, it makes it a lot easier to "cat call", pussy grab, and rape. It's a long jump to that end, but the line is straight and true.

If it's a feminist idea, then you can call me one. But wanting to protect half of our society from being groped and prodded is far from elitist. It's just good common sense.

[93legendti]

I am just glad to hear that, like the scene from "Taken", Albanian Mobsters are no longer taking tourist women/ladies/girls and forcing them at gun point to be life long Podium Girls.

[Tony T]

"South Australian government withdrew its support of the use of models on the podium in a drive to improve body image."


Having a top fit cyclist in spandex receiving an award does not improve my body image!

I say do away with the award for every stage win (my body image can take it for just the overall win)

And do something to make them ride slower!
The way the pro's ride is having a very negative effect on my cycling image!

:)

[Schmed]

I think there's something wrong with us MEN deciding what's right and wrong for women to do.

If a woman were to ask my opinion (a rarity) about it... I'd say - go for it. Nothing wrong with dressing up, being a part of a celebration of winners of a contest. Might be fun. Might be interesting. Neat way to meet a professional athlete. If you think it's objectification of women, then don't do it.

It's not like it's a wet t-shirt competition.

[Tony T]

I find it interesting that Cycling News found it necessary to post not one, but two pictures with Podium Girls.
Surely they could have ran the story without those pictures ("…and don't call me Shirley")


…..or perhaps they also see the positive effect of having beautiful women on their pages.


:banana::banana:

[Dead Man]

I think it's pretty simple really. It's an objectification of women. They have no other reason to be there than to act as objects to look at. I'm not saying that objectification is not all around us, but as a society were have been moving away from it for a while now, at least in the mainstream.

Why is objectification a bad thing? It all seems so harmless, right? Because if you view something as an object without recognizing it's merits, it makes it a lot easier to "cat call", pussy grab, and rape. It's a long jump to that end, but the line is straight and true.

If it's a feminist idea, then you can call me one. But wanting to protect half of our society from being groped and prodded is far from elitist. It's just good common sense.

I have to push back on your central argument though. What actually is the "objectification of women," and how does it cause grabbing of pussies and rape? Why do you accept that notion as given? You're making another withdrawal from social theory, and one that was pretty fringe not too long ago, at that.

Literally, podium girls are of course not "objectifying" women. It does not make them inhuman objects, not even in the minds of those looking. Nobody misconstrues their presence as the dehumanization of them and think "well hell, I can grab her pussy and rape her, because she was paid to stand there looking pretty for 15 minutes!" In reality- The real world- Not the theoretical world- It just puts money in those girls pockets, and gives people who are attracted to them (male and female here, folks..) a couple of minutes of pleasant slightly increased synaptic activity. Probably something on par with eating a pink Starburst.

I don't accept this constructed concept that looking at pretty girls = society-wide depreciation of the value of women's sovereignty over their own bodies (if I'm understanding the concept?). I'm gonna need something a little more physical than that.

[Schmed]

I support women's right to choose to be podium girls, be objectified, and do what they want. Wear makeup (or not), dress up (or not), get a tatoo (or not), etc. Who cares? It's their choice. I'm sure they are smart enough to make up their own mind about this without my meaningless opinion.

[Tony]

Hincapie has the best podium girls.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Hincapie+with+wife+and+baby+on+the+podium&espv=2&biw=1280&bih=894&tbm=isch&imgil=JWWC3ve4QMURxM%253A%253BvcY0JKihyDbodM%253Bh ttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fforum.cyclingnews.com%2525 2Fviewtopic.php%25253Ft%2525253D3430&source=iu&pf=m&fir=JWWC3ve4QMURxM%253A%252CvcY0JKihyDbodM%252C_&usg=__UnBJDIYOVzw4GrO-yujSRdCmlIY%3D&dpr=1&ved=0ahUKEwiB7JjNsdnQAhVrxVQKHbg3AcMQyjcIKw&ei=b3FDWMH4KOuK0wK474SYDA#imgrc=JWWC3ve4QMURxM%3A

Thinking it would be cool to have future generation of cyclists, kids instead sharing the stage with their idols?

[Dead Man]

Hincapie has the best podium girls.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Hincapie+with+wife+and+baby+on+the+podium&espv=2&biw=1280&bih=894&tbm=isch&imgil=JWWC3ve4QMURxM%253A%253BvcY0JKihyDbodM%253Bh ttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fforum.cyclingnews.com%2525 2Fviewtopic.php%25253Ft%2525253D3430&source=iu&pf=m&fir=JWWC3ve4QMURxM%253A%252CvcY0JKihyDbodM%252C_&usg=__UnBJDIYOVzw4GrO-yujSRdCmlIY%3D&dpr=1&ved=0ahUKEwiB7JjNsdnQAhVrxVQKHbg3AcMQyjcIKw&ei=b3FDWMH4KOuK0wK474SYDA#imgrc=JWWC3ve4QMURxM%3A

Thinking it would be cool to have future generation of cyclists, kids instead sharing the stage with their idols?

https://provelopassion.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/george-and-melanie2.jpg

She's pretty. Why's she even up there? To make him look good? Must be objectification.

I have no problem with juniors presenting awards to pros.. why's that have to be weird? They're not going to be KISSING them.

All of my podium awards have been handed to me by dudes, I think.. my 3rd place State award was put around my neck by a slightly overweight middle-aged woman... no kisses. No sexual tension either.

No podium girls in OBRAland.

[cadence90]

I think replacing podium girls with junior racers is a fine idea.


If nothing else, it will give Pez one less race to leer at, and that is certainly a very, very good thing.

[Stephen2014]

Did anyone ask the podium girls if they want to be kicked out of a job? A job where they are luckier than most of us in meeting champion sports riders?
What will western society be in 100 years, forced burkas on women?
Maybe the muslims are right then?

[Steelman]

I think replacing podium girls with junior racers is a fine idea.


If nothing else, it will give Pez one less race to leer at, and that is certainly a very, very good thing.

LOL.

Yes, what Pez, will not do, in its desperation for content and (male?) readership.

[Llewellyn]

Did anyone ask the podium girls if they want to be kicked out of a job? A job where they are luckier than most of us in meeting champion sports riders?
What will western society be in 100 years, forced burkas on women?
Maybe the muslims are right then?


FFS :help:

[merlincustom1]

That you carry, believe and behave in a manner consistent and reflective of the attitude given in your post is completely up to you. It is a free country and you have the right to do as you believe. Keep it legal and you are good to go! How receptive you could be to change these attitudes is likewise, also up to you.

But the way things were is hardly a reason for keeping thing the way they are. We are all products of the times we had come of age in. But life progresses. Anyone can choose to change. Or not.

Some outdated attitudes on gender might be inherited and ingrained as a generational legacy from a time preceding cultural change. For example the mores surrounding gender exhibited by men the age of Roger Ailes or Donald Trump: they might believe there is no reason to give up their gender privilege if they either don't want to or don't have to. But as we know, sometimes they will stubbornly behave in ways that is simply unacceptable by any standard. True even back then and even if they suffered no consequences.

But that they could get away with it then never made it right. In the modern world it just isn't done - look how fast Fox dumped Ailes. That Trump got more leeway for similar behaviour is IMO reflective to the priority in the desires of his voters for what they hope to get out of him.

Some of these attitudes may be induced to change because of things that happen & alter life. For example:
You become a husband and must now deal with having respect for your wife. This would be done in pure self-interest. Or not.
You become a father of daughters and cannot accept your offspring as capable of less potential and subject to debasement simply by virtue of their gender. This would be done in pure self-interest. Or not.

I don't know how old you are. I don't know what your life situation is. I am responding to what I perceive as indifference stated in your post and not as directly to, or about, you. But life progresses and life does not exist in a figurative vacuum - nothing stays the same.

And if you were to somehow believe otherwise then live accordingly too. It's your life.
You do realize we're talking about podium girls, right? Try running this spiel past Camille Paglia.

[earlfoss]

Triggered by podium girls?

Find a safe zone and get a hug!

[acoffin]

Is there a reason to continue the tradition? I'm not sure what the big deal is. Society is (slowly) becoming a more welcoming place for everyone who lives in it. To me that's pretty damn important. People can find plenty of opportunities to look at pretty ladies if that's what matters to them. No rights are being lost, no models would end up homeless if podium girls were no longer, and there's not even a good argument for loss of cultural relevance.

[Louis]

Some of the arguments in this thread supporting PGs sound a heck of a lot like the ones you hear in favor of prostitution - "The choice should be up to them!" or "Who are we to tell them they can't earn a buck as they see fit?"

Along these same lines, I can't stand restaurants like Hooters, Brick House, or Twin Peaks, and avoid them as much as possible.

[sonicCows]

What about women's cycling races. Should they also get podium women?

[Louis]

What about women's cycling races. Should they also get podium women?

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT4Zjs1elbExSR2GJwN6pYptgkXdjqoQ xCmFX9OGWz0iKtvU5P9pQ&reload=on

[acoffin]

I have to push back on your central argument though. What actually is the "objectification of women," and how does it cause grabbing of pussies and rape? Why do you accept that notion as given? You're making another withdrawal from social theory, and one that was pretty fringe not too long ago, at that.

Literally, podium girls are of course not "objectifying" women. It does not make them inhuman objects, not even in the minds of those looking. Nobody misconstrues their presence as the dehumanization of them and think "well hell, I can grab her pussy and rape her, because she was paid to stand there looking pretty for 15 minutes!" In reality- The real world- Not the theoretical world- It just puts money in those girls pockets, and gives people who are attracted to them (male and female here, folks..) a couple of minutes of pleasant slightly increased synaptic activity. Probably something on par with eating a pink Starburst.

I don't accept this constructed concept that looking at pretty girls = society-wide depreciation of the value of women's sovereignty over their own bodies (if I'm understanding the concept?). I'm gonna need something a little more physical than that.

Dead Man, you are setting the criteria for an answer that only allows the answer you want. It seems you think the only literal objectification of women would be a situation where a female was actually mistaken as an object and not real. This idea has nothing to do with the theory. Putting women on a podium dressed up like dolls is in fact as literal as objectification can get. You have to look no further than the article in the op for one example of evidence.

"In 2013, Peter Sagan got himself into hot water when he pinched the bottom of one of the podium girls after the Tour of Flanders"

Bottom pinching may be less socially reprehensible than pussy grabbing, but it's only slightly less disrespectful, and it's objectification any way you slice it.

[PeregrineA1]

Heaven forbid we act like the animals we are.

[Tony T]

Did anyone ask the podium girls if they want to be kicked out of a job?

They're "body shaming" young girls, so no.

"The Government's paying for grid girls at the same time we're putting money into mental health areas to help young women who have body image problems," said South Australia Sports Minister Leon Bignell, who, according to the ABC, has been the driving force behind the move.

[Tony T]

FFS :help:

OT: I didn't know what this was an acronym for, but I was a bit surprised to see that it's listed in Apple's Dictionary!

[fuzzalow]

You do realize we're talking about podium girls, right? Try running this spiel past Camille Paglia.

You do realize we're talkin' about issues surrounding the use of podium girls, right?

I don't know who Camille Paglia is and had to Google her - I'm finance and law, not social sciences.

If I ran this spiel past Camille Paglia I'd guess she'd think it shallow and unsophisticated. It wasn't writing as from an academic but thoughts given from a man, husband, father and professional.

Do you have a point to make then speak your mind. I'd like to hear it.

[Schmed]

https://cdn-cyclingtips.pressidium.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/20160327-144931kopie1-e1459266485533.jpg

[cadence90]

Craziest PLF thread ever?

[soulspinner]

Craziest PLF thread ever?

I was thinking the same thing.......

[bobswire]

Edited out.

[Dead Man]

Dead Man, you are setting the criteria for an answer that only allows the answer you want. It seems you think the only literal objectification of women would be a situation where a female was actually mistaken as an object and not real. This idea has nothing to do with the theory. Putting women on a podium dressed up like dolls is in fact as literal as objectification can get. You have to look no further than the article in the op for one example of evidence.

"In 2013, Peter Sagan got himself into hot water when he pinched the bottom of one of the podium girls after the Tour of Flanders"

Bottom pinching may be less socially reprehensible than pussy grabbing, but it's only slightly less disrespectful, and it's objectification any way you slice it.

So without theoretical "objectification" argument, there's no viable argument against podium girls?

Guess you're kind of making my argument for me, then.

[Dead Man]

I'll also point out that Sagan's ass pinch was just plain bad behavior, and not acceptable in any context. You're always going to have personality defects that think the rules don't apply to them- these people aren't any kind of cross section of society, they're an exception to society.

You can't even do that in strip clubs - "objectification?"

[rain dogs]

So without theoretical "objectification" argument, there's no viable argument against podium girls?


What's the viable argument for podium girls?

[witcombusa]

https://provelopassion.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/george-and-melanie2.jpg

She's pretty. Why's she even up there? To make him look good? Must be objectification.

I have no problem with juniors presenting awards to pros.. why's that have to be weird? They're not going to be KISSING them.

All of my podium awards have been handed to me by dudes, I think.. my 3rd place State award was put around my neck by a slightly overweight middle-aged woman... no kisses. No sexual tension either.

No podium girls in OBRAland.

I was used to seeing Melanie as a brunette...what a lovely lady.

[Dead Man]

What's the viable argument for podium girls?

Whatever the reasons the promoters that hire them have? I don't really have any- but I'm not the one on a crusade to make other people change their behaviors. I'm just challenging this "objectification" argument.

[witcombusa]

for those who have been drinking too much of the Cool-Aid...

[rain dogs]

Whatever the reasons the promoters that hire them have? I don't really have any... [snip]

So why can't junior riders fit these reasons? Why is this even a 6 page debate that we have every 5 months?

[ptourkin]

for those who have been drinking too much of the Cool-Aid...
And you're proud of this? Great.

[Dead Man]

So why can't junior riders fit these reasons? Why is this even a 6 page debate that we have every 5 months?

If you'll scroll up, you'll see that I (might be the only person so far in this thread who?) have no problem with junior racers handing out awards. I even think is cool idea.

So long as Sagan doesn't go for any ass pinching. What a ****.

[witcombusa]

And you're proud of this? Great.

YES!
Do you know where the term 'Politically Correct' was most famously applied?

"In the early-to-mid 20th century, the phrase "politically correct" was associated with the dogmatic application of Stalinist doctrine, debated between Communist Party members and American Socialists. This usage referred to the Communist party line, which provided "correct" positions on many political matters."

Nothing has changed, still politics in action following current agenda :butt:

[Aaron O]

And you're proud of this? Great.

Until it's his group/ideology being insulted. Then you're a cultural elitist, radical, agitator, etc.

You just don't understand the internal struggle that being sensitive to others, and empathetic, can be for some people. Stop being intolerant of intolerance!

[merlincustom1]

You do realize we're talkin' about issues surrounding the use of podium girls, right?

I don't know who Camille Paglia is and had to Google her - I'm finance and law, not social sciences.

If I ran this spiel past Camille Paglia I'd guess she'd think it shallow and unsophisticated. It wasn't writing as from an academic but thoughts given from a man, husband, father and professional.

Do you have a point to make then speak your mind. I'd like to hear it.

I was irked by the preachy condescension of your first two and last two paragraphs in your reply to someone whose position was different from yours, and the implication that yours is the more evolved view.

That our culture finds the female or for that matter male form aesthetically pleasing is in no way responsible for the loutish behavior of men like Ailes and Trump, whose shortcomings are clearly their own. I find a hint of paternalism in your post, that women are somehow in need of protection from men like Ailes and Trump, and that getting them out of their sexy clothing might be a good start. But perhaps I'm misreading.

You speak of attitudinal change due to changing life circumstance. Surely you didn't mean to say that you need to become a husband to understand that wives are deserving of respect? The Golden Rule takes care of that one- no changing circumstance is needed. You also don't need to become a father to understand that daughters, or any female, really, shouldn't be debased.

Since we're talking about issues surrounding the use of podium girls, I guess a fair question for you is whether you consider a woman's choice of a modeling career debasing?

[93legendti]

..


Since we're talking about issues surrounding the use of podium girls, I guess a fair question for you is whether you consider a woman's choice of a modeling career debasing?

Since we're talking about issues surrounding the use of podium girls, I guess a fair question for you is whether you consider a woman's choice of a modeling career debasing?[/QUOTE]

Good point.

From the article linked in the OP:

'A model agency director called the South Australia government decision sad, but SA Unions secretary Joe Szakacs said that it would not limit employment options for models.
"There's certainly no lack of opportunity for women to participate in modelling and fashion," he said

[1centaur]

Until it's his group/ideology being insulted. Then you're a cultural elitist, radical, agitator, etc.

You just don't understand the internal struggle that being sensitive to others, and empathetic, can be for some people. Stop being intolerant of intolerance!

From observation, it would seem it IS politically correct to insult white guys. No empathy is evident in that lane. And people who point that out are called whiners without getting disapproval from their peers. Politically correct is really not about being sensitive and empathetic, it's about having the "correct" social views in the opinion of people with great and loudly displayed dislike for large swaths of society. It is not about freedom, it's about suppression of freedom, particularly of speech. There are plenty of bad ideas in this world, but they are better out in the open being redebated until they wither and die than being suppressed before they emerge, and thereby allowed to fester and grow into bad behavior and unstoppable political movements.

[Tony T]

Since we're talking about issues surrounding the use of podium girls, I guess a fair question for you is whether you consider a woman's choice of a modeling career debasing?

Good point.

From the article linked in the OP:

'A model agency director called the South Australia government decision sad, but SA Unions secretary Joe Szakacs said that it would not limit employment options for models.
"There's certainly no lack of opportunity for women to participate in modelling and fashion," he said


This does not make a whole lot of sense.

"The Government's paying for grid girls at the same time we're putting money into mental health areas to help young women who have body image problems," said South Australia Sports Minister Leon Bignell, who, according to the ABC, has been the driving force behind the move.

Yet they're ok with the same models getting other work, which would mean what? fashion models, make-up models, magazine models?

So, tell me, where will young women with body image problems be more exposed? The TDU or fashion magazines?

.

[Aaron O]

From observation, it would seem it IS politically correct to insult white guys. No empathy is evident in that lane. And people who point that out are called whiners without getting disapproval from their peers. Politically correct is really not about being sensitive and empathetic, it's about having the "correct" social views in the opinion of people with great and loudly displayed dislike for large swaths of society. It is not about freedom, it's about suppression of freedom, particularly of speech. There are plenty of bad ideas in this world, but they are better out in the open being redebated until they wither and die than being suppressed before they emerge, and thereby allowed to fester and grow into bad behavior and unstoppable political movements.

https://www.yomyomf.com/silence-dealing-with-racism-in-the-workplace/

[93legendti]

This does not make a whole lot of sense.

"The Government's paying for grid girls at the same time we're putting money into mental health areas to help young women who have body image problems," said South Australia Sports Minister Leon Bignell, who, according to the ABC, has been the driving force behind the move.

Yet they're ok with the same models getting other work, which would mean what? fashion models, make-up models, magazine models?

So, tell me, where will young women with body image problems be more exposed? The TDU or fashion magazines?

.
I agree it doesn't make sense. The whole thing is stupid and will change nothing. Ban modeling, ban fashion magazines, ban bikinis, ban tight clothes, ban mirrors. Maybe burkas are the answer for body image problems.

[rain dogs]

Equating a podium girl to other modelling (or the like) employment seems disingenuous for two reasons:

1. It ignores context. Clothing (for ex.) is context. Clothing on humans looks more appealing to consumers than clothing alone. What is the context of the podium girl? Tough bike race, impressive W/kg, great sprint ...you get kisses from a random pretty girl? What's the value?

2. It ignores or dismisses any and all other talking points on womens employment with these other job types by reducing to lowest common standard of sex sells! That's BS. If it were gay male models in buttless chaps every last one of the "I'm pro podium girls" people arguing here would likely be outraged. That's sex. What, you're not buying? Exactly. Because it isn't the white bread, power imbalanced sex you've come to expect and demand from women at every turn. Where would your "Politically Correct crisis" strawman be when it comes to guy on guy ass-slapping?

Again, what is the argument for the podium girl as we know it most commonly? Any presenter can do the same without the "sex" after a bike race at no less value to the event. The contrary... likely more value oportunities!

[Aaron O]

I agree it doesn't make sense. The whole thing is stupid and will change nothing. Ban modeling, ban fashion magazines, ban bikinis, ban tight clothes, ban mirrors. Maybe burkas are the answer for body image problems.

Right...because not having half dressed women kissing victorious gladiators at public sporting events must mean society is moving towards a burka. It can't just be that an event decided that, within context, it wasn't appropriate anymore, and could be turning off some spectators and athletes. I would feel uncomfortable with some woman I didn't know kissing me as a trophy. How dare this event consider other perspectives!

RIP to nuance.

[Bradford]

We are not talking about cycling anymore, just politics. I'm closing this so we can move on.