View Full Version : WADA Thinking of Banning Altitude Tents
Louis
07-25-2006, 10:32 PM
From the NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/26/sports/othersports/26altitude.html?hp&ex=1153886400&en=37985d6063c51880&ei=5094&partner=homepage) web site.
July 26, 2006
Tents Simulating High Altitude Could Be Grounded
By GINA KOLATA
Three of the top United States cyclists in this year’s Tour de France use a special method to enhance their performance, and it is legal. They sleep in altitude tents or altitude rooms that simulate the low-oxygen conditions of high altitude. This prompts the body to make more oxygen-carrying red blood cells and can lead to improved endurance.
The cyclists — Dave Zabriskie, George Hincapie and Levi Leipheimer — are among the athletes featured on the Web site for Colorado Altitude Training, which makes the tents, known as hypoxic devices. Runners, triathletes, skiers, rowers and the Philadelphia Flyers are among the elite athletes who espouse the virtues of the company’s altitude simulation products on the site.
But soon, the altitude tents and rooms may be banned by the World Anti-Doping Agency, or WADA. The agency’s ethics panel recently determined that the tents and rooms violated “the spirit of sport.”
The agency said it would reach a decision in September about whether to include altitude tents and rooms on its List of Prohibited Substances and Methods for 2007. In the meantime, it is eliciting comments from its constituents, which it describes as the Olympic movement, including the International Olympic Committee and “governments of the world.”
The ramifications of banning these hypoxic devices, athletes and trainers say, would be far-reaching, and many are upset that the antidoping agency would even consider such a move. It would mean that for the first time, the question of performance enhancement moves from the use of drugs, like anabolic steroids and human growth hormone, and methods, like blood doping, to something much more nebulous.
“It sets a precedent,” said Doriane Lambelet Coleman, a law professor at Duke and a former elite-level middle-distance runner. “This is the first opinion of this governing body that purports to describe the spirit of sport. If it stands, it will inevitably be used again.”
Because its discussions about the hypoxic devices are still going on, the antidoping agency declined to have its officials interviewed; it referred questions about the “spirit of sport” concept to its ethics advisory panel chairman, Dr. Thomas Murray. He is president of the Hastings Center, a bioethics research institute in Garrison, N.Y. The panel recently issued a report about “artificially induced hypoxic conditions to modify performance.”
“Speaking personally, it was a difficult call,” Murray said of the altitude tents and rooms. “We have already made a decision that not all technologies are acceptable. So where do we draw the line? That is the debate that WADA is trying to sponsor.”
Not everyone agrees about how effective altitude training really is, but many athletes and trainers are firm believers. Athletes who can afford it, and whose schedules permit it, often sleep at altitude in the mountains and travel to lower altitudes during the day to train. Others use the modern method; they sleep in altitude tents, which start at about $5,000 at Colorado Altitude Training, a major supplier. Or they convert a bedroom, spending about $25,000. Some have even spent millions of dollars to convert an entire building.
“Ninety-five percent of the medals that have been won at Olympic Games have been won by people who train at or live at altitude,” said Joe Vigil, who coaches Deena Kastor. She holds the United States women’s record in the marathon. Kastor lives in Mammoth Lakes, Calif., at an altitude of 7,800 feet, and often trains at sea level.
The decision on whether to ban hypoxic devices has taken many athletes and exercise physiologists by surprise, but the antidoping agency has quietly spent the past few years considering the issue, said Dr. Bengt Saltin, director of the Copenhagen Muscle Research Center. Saltin was a member of the agency’s health medicine and research committee until two years ago.
“We have discussed the issue a lot,” he said.
In Saltin’s opinion, the altitude tents and rooms are no different from going to “a suitable mountain area,” only cheaper. Banning the altitude tents or rooms, he said, “should not be on the WADA or International Olympic Committee’s priority list.”
That is also the view of the 76 scientists and bioethicists who recently signed a letter to the World Anti-Doping Agency expressing “grave concern” over the proposal to ban the tents and rooms.
The letter’s lead author was Dr. Benjamin D. Levine, director of the Institute for Exercise and Environmental Medicine at Presbyterian Hospital and a professor at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical School, both in Dallas. He said the antidoping agency was starting down a perilous path.
“This is a pretty slippery slope,” he said. “WADA is going to lose their credibility with the scientific community, upon whom they depend to further their mission, by pursuing this. And how to enforce it is a whole different question.”
In addition to Levine’s letter, the Center for Sports Law and Policy at the Duke University School of Law recently issued a position paper opposing the notion of banning the altitude tents and rooms.
The key question for Murray, of the Hastings Center, and the WADA ethics advisory panel in preparing their report was how to define what it meant to violate the spirit of sport. They decided that a violation would be a purely passive activity that nonetheless enhanced performance.
“When we think about great performances, we think about athletes who train very hard and are disciplined on top of their natural talents,” Murray said. And most of the legal performance-enhancing equipment, like fiberglass poles for the pole vault, “requires the active engagement of the athlete in learning to use it.”
Others, like Levine, take issue with the notion that being passive is a key distinction. The biological response to training, Levine says, occurs during rest and recovery, and athletes plan those periods as carefully as they do their active training. “It is a very serious error to look at an athlete lying quietly and assume they are ‘passive,’ ” he said.
Levine added that he thought it was problematic to point to altitude tents or rooms when there are other legal and passive measures that athletes use to enhance performance — sitting in a sauna to acclimate to heat and humidity, or wearing a cooling vest or sitting in cold water to cool their bodies before a race in hot weather. Why not ban those practices, too, Levine said.
“The fact that we can think of cases that are difficult does not mean we can’t draw lines,” Murray said.
Murray acknowledged that athletes who go to the mountains can get the same effect as sleeping in an altitude tent. But, he said, in his opinion that was not a compelling reason to say that altitude tents were within the spirit of sport.
“There are some people who are in a sense geographically fortunate,” Murray said.
Alberto Salazar, a former champion marathoner who coaches elite distance runners for Nike, said that if the World Anti-Doping Agency were to ban altitude tents and rooms, the effect on United States distance runners would be devastating. Nike has outfitted the bedrooms of its athletes to make them altitude chambers, Salazar said, adding that about 40 percent of the athletes increase their red-blood-cell count as a result.
“Altitude training is absolutely essential,” Salazar said. “Any athlete who wants to be competitive in the world scene would have to move to altitude or cheat by using an altitude room or taking illegal drugs.”
Moving to a high altitude is not feasible for many who have jobs and families elsewhere, Salazar said. Of course, he added, runners from Kenya do not have that problem because many of them live at high altitudes.
“How many Americans or Western Europeans do we have that are competitive with the best athletes in the world? Very few,” Salazar said. “We’ve got such small numbers, do we need another handicap? Do we need to tell them that the second they graduate from college they have to move to altitude?”
Murray said he knew the issue was fraught, and he welcomed debate.
“Lines can be very difficult to draw, there is no question about it,” he said. But if there are no lines, he added, “whatever you like about the sport will disappear.”
He added, “This is a healthy conversation to be having.”
Samster
07-25-2006, 10:42 PM
i think d1ck pound just needs to go. i find his logic atypically baffling.
inGobwetrust
07-25-2006, 10:51 PM
I thought the whole idea of WADA was to level the playing field? Altitude tents "level" the field in a literal sense and take away the advantage of those living at higher elevations. Samster is right, **** has to go.
David Kirk
07-25-2006, 11:43 PM
Word on the street is that they are going to ban excessive training next. 100 miles a week max because more than that might be bad for you.
Dave
swoop
07-25-2006, 11:58 PM
Water bottles are the new dope. Ban them. Hey, are those tires on your bike? Rubber, banned.
toaster
07-26-2006, 12:01 AM
D_ick Pound wants to ban cows because they produce an out of this world wonder tonic.
Espresso is soon to be put on notice as well.
shinomaster
07-26-2006, 02:13 AM
How is an altitude tent more honest than EPO? Really, what is the difference?
From the NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/26/sports/othersports/26altitude.html?hp&ex=1153886400&en=37985d6063c51880&ei=5094&partner=homepage) web site.
July 26, 2006
Tents Simulating High Altitude Could Be Grounded
By GINA KOLATA
<text snipped>
this won't affect me; i live at attitude atmo.
William
07-26-2006, 05:55 AM
The time is NOW to invest in high altitude real-estate.
Just saying....
**** is a ****.
William
How is an altitude tent more honest than EPO? Really, what is the difference?
BINGO! This is the point that I always get hung up on in the whole doping debate. Where does ethical end and 'cheating' begin? Living at altitude, sleeping in an altitute tent, and taking EPO all have very similar effects. Does the spectrum from most difficult to an expensive pain in butt to really convenient change the ethics involved? Is recovery different from performance enhancements. Yada yada yada. It's all so friggin much grey area. At some point, it isn't cheating if everyone's doing it and it creates a level playing field. Every elite endurance athlete is seeking to create more red blood cells than they would have both living and training at sea level. I, for one, don't give a rat's behind how they get there.
-Ray
Too Tall
07-26-2006, 06:40 AM
So more athletes will use DOPE because of this and it becomes yet again even more elite, difficult and exclusive to train in west nowhereville. Yeah, that's really using your noggin WADAbunchacarp. Think about it....will entail random inspection of athletes training quarters intraining and competition. Realitly check time...who here thinks there are enough "inspectioneers" to make this even handed?
This is ballshat. It is a non invasive and useful method that won't make anyone have two headed puppies or go blind.
GOSH hope WADA doesn't ban weight lifting too...horrors.
Grant McLean
07-26-2006, 07:10 AM
How is an altitude tent more honest than EPO? Really, what is the difference?
Really? You don't see the difference? Come on now, be honest with yourself,
I think you know.
g
flydhest
07-26-2006, 07:20 AM
Kirkissimo has it.
As I said before, all roads lead to Harrison Bergeron.
You reckon they should ban rehydration by IV? That's introducing a chemical substance (it's usually a saline or similar solution) directly into your bloodstream.
Too Tall
07-26-2006, 07:22 AM
My gosh...did everyone know that way off in commieland they use external pressure devices to strengthen athletes hearts? Savage I tell you....the list goes on.
Why does this hack me off so?
nick0137
07-26-2006, 07:25 AM
Instead of banning "geographically fortunate" riders can WADA please ban "genetically fortunate" riders? I don't know about you, but I could do 250 miles a week (hell, in winter that is what I do) and I'll still get my *** handed to me by some skinny guy as soon as the road goes uphill. Ban anyone better than me - that should be the gold standard applied by WADA.
flydhest
07-26-2006, 07:29 AM
Nick,
That's the beauty of where we're heading. We won't have to ban skinny guys, we'll just add weight to them. Guys with huge VO2 max? They'll have to have part of their lung removed. People with intense focus? We'll force them to listen to ABBA over and over again--Dancing Queen ****s anybody's concentration.
Don't stop there . . . think about it, we'll mar the features of beauty queens so they are just as ugly as TooTall (ouch, that wasn't nice), NBA stars will have sections of bone removed so they are no taller thant 5'9", the possibilities are endless.
nick0137
07-26-2006, 07:36 AM
Aw, "Dancin Queen" is what I do a lot of my 250 winter miles listening to. You can't give evryone else that advantage. They should get some nice n easy listenin - Perry Como maybe. (BTW, did he come from Como? No? Thought not.....).
And how about banning riders that come from cycling friendly parts of the world where there are nice roads and polite drivers? Make everyone train in London, on a fixed wheel. With no brakes.
Too Tall
07-26-2006, 07:50 AM
I'm going to start a daily handicap sheet...this will be sweet. Little lead weights duct taped all over their bikes....nono A Giles Berthoud designed carrier yeah that's it. DOH, this really is NASCAR.
Fly is still p'd I sold his bike for a bottle of scotch and a round of Corsican Goat cheese. Bmr' dewd. You would have done the same.
Russell
07-26-2006, 08:02 AM
How is an altitude tent more honest than EPO? Really, what is the difference?
You don't risk a massive heart attack from sleeping in a tent.
WADA should be about protecting the riders. What is the "spirit of the sport"? Riding without any support with spare tires wrap around you? Only water in water bottles? That may be easy to say for all us weekend warriors, but I think DP is full of BS.
I hope they don't ban altitude itself. Colorado would be uninhabitable! ;)
there's a fine line between clever and stupid atmo.
classic1
07-26-2006, 08:17 AM
http://photo.sing365.com/music/picture.nsf/Spinal-Tap-photo/BD7D31E6E4D4704E48256DCE0030FB6A/$file/Spinal+Tap.jpg
http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/img/28/0,1886,2367132,00.jpg
OldDog
07-26-2006, 08:30 AM
I think they sould ban racing altogether. Form the United States Touring Federation. No tents, no drugs, except for doobies. No training. Everyone eats bannanas, rides a French fit frame. No tires under 28c. Baggins bags are mandatory. A mandatory wine region ride once a month. There's still hope for a perfect world.
Samster
07-26-2006, 08:44 AM
How is an altitude tent more honest than EPO? Really, what is the difference?
how is epo any less honest than living at altitude? really, what is the difference?
Samster
07-26-2006, 08:46 AM
I hope they don't ban altitude itself. Colorado would be uninhabitable! ;)
i had a comment here... but was beaten to the punch atmo. the comment was basically what Bud said... <deleted>
Well. . . so much for attempts to be "clever." Bear with me- it's early and I need more coffee. . .I'll see if I can operationally define a clever post by looking to some exemplars on this forum. :)
In all seriousness, then: what do we do about those who are "geographically fortunate" as the article states? What about the "unfortunate?"
Too Tall
07-26-2006, 08:57 AM
I get this image of full on drunk WADA officials sitting around a smokey table. Stuck in 1050something land they "hear" about these things and make a bunch of grunting sounds than issue dopey proclaimations....than it's time for the cheese course followed by espressos and smoke.
William
07-26-2006, 09:25 AM
What about the inequality in team budgets? Some team have a heck of a lot more dough to play with then others. We need to level that playing field as well!!
BAN IT ALL!!!
From here on out....
All bikes in competition are exactly the same size, same color, same gruppos, same bar tape etc....
All kits are exactly alike except color..unless it's found that one color weighs less then another.
Lead weights will be added to all bikes to match the weight of the largest rider in the peloton.
No support cars or team mechanics (some are better and faster then others).
If a spectator pushes a rider briefly up the hill, that spectator must push all riders up the hill.
All food given to riders in the feedzones must be exactly the same...in musette bags of the same color and density.
All competitors must stay in a communal hostel in one room full of bunk beds. No O2 tents allowed.
All competitors must use the same latrine, hand soap, shower, and towel.
All competitors must eat the same breakfast, lunch, and dinner. No exceptions.
The word "IROC" will be placed at the beginning of the title of each and every competition:
The "IROC" Tour De France
The "IROC" Giro
The "IROC" Paris/Roubaix
The "IROC" Tour De Qatar
Etc....
William :rolleyes:
Altitude tents were banned in Italy during the last winter olympics. XC Ski federations have been dealing with this issue already.
Anyhow, here's one editor's take on this. http://www.xcskiworld.com/news/Editor/editor_hotels.htm
67-59
07-26-2006, 09:34 AM
Lead weights will be added to all bikes to match the weight of the largest rider in the peloton.William :rolleyes:
And they'll have to adjust the weights daily on stage races to account for weight changes during the race. Maybe even more often than that. Someone takes a nature break? Time to recalibrate the weights....
Too Tall
07-26-2006, 09:49 AM
Zapper - how was that enforced?
catulle
07-26-2006, 09:55 AM
Welcome to the jungle...
Italy?
Possible police raids.
http://cbs.sportsline.com/olympics/story/9105989
catulle
07-26-2006, 10:00 AM
New Colnago Nepal...
Wayne77
07-26-2006, 10:16 AM
I get this image of full on drunk WADA officials sitting around a smokey table. Stuck in 1050something land they "hear" about these things and make a bunch of grunting sounds than issue dopey proclaimations....than it's time for the cheese course followed by espressos and smoke.
Hey I saw that movie too!
http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/walt_disney/the_hitchhiker_s_guide_to_the_galaxy/vogons2.jpg
shinomaster
07-26-2006, 01:29 PM
Really? You don't see the difference? Come on now, be honest with yourself,
I think you know.
g
No I fail to see a difference. If you take the time to travel, and rent a house in the high mountains to train at altitude as racers have been doing for years, then you reap the rewards, in what seems to me a natural human process. It is a response to one's environment.
If you just buy a tent and sleep in it in New Jersey or Boston or wherever, then you are taking an easy and artificial shortcut. These tents were developed for mountain climbers, who more than anyone need to be able to breath at the top of as mountain, like K2, or perish.
Avispa
07-26-2006, 01:36 PM
this won't affect me; i live at attitude atmo.
But isn't this the game?: Train at sea level, rest at altitude? I actually have found a way to beat this WADA suggestion!
I have a Hot Air Balloon that I inflate every night and sleep at altitude! The only problem with me is that when there are hurricanes in the area I end up in another State!!! :D :D
Originally Posted by atmo
this won't affect me; i live at attitude atmo.
But isn't this the game?: Train at sea level, rest at altitude? I actually have found a way to beat this WADA suggestion!
I have a Hot Air ballon that I inflate every night and sleep at altitude! The only problem with me is that when there are hurricanes in the are I end up in another State!!! :D :D
hellllllllllllllllllooooooooooooooooooooooooo...
Dekonick
07-26-2006, 01:57 PM
So more athletes will use DOPE because of this and it becomes yet again even more elite, difficult and exclusive to train in west nowhereville. Yeah, that's really using your noggin WADAbunchacarp. Think about it....will entail random inspection of athletes training quarters intraining and competition. Realitly check time...who here thinks there are enough "inspectioneers" to make this even handed?
This is ballshat. It is a non invasive and useful method that won't make anyone have two headed puppies or go blind.
GOSH hope WADA doesn't ban weight lifting too...horrors.
Lets ban endless pools!
Lets ban synthetic materials
Lets ban.....
Sheesh! I suppose man made snow will be on the list soon... :crap:
Unsafe drugs I can deal with...but 'cmon guys! I really don't care anymore - I just want to watch my races with the athletes I care about. I missed Jan this year. (glad that Landis won...but missed Jan)
flydhest
07-26-2006, 02:15 PM
You don't risk a massive heart attack from sleeping in a tent.
WADA should be about protecting the riders. What is the "spirit of the sport"? Riding without any support with spare tires wrap around you? Only water in water bottles? That may be easy to say for all us weekend warriors, but I think DP is full of BS.
I think I agree with your sentiment about protecting the riders, but only to a limited degree. Should the riders be restricted from how fast they can descend? That would save lives. Perhaps the amount of emotional stress they put on themselves that leads to depression needs to be regulated--everyone gets to win one race a year for self-esteem. OK, so the second one is silly, but sports are dangerous and protecting the athletes is a nebulous concept for me that leads to the same logic as Mr. Pound's.
Russell
07-26-2006, 02:37 PM
I think I agree with your sentiment about protecting the riders, but only to a limited degree. Should the riders be restricted from how fast they can descend? That would save lives. Perhaps the amount of emotional stress they put on themselves that leads to depression needs to be regulated--everyone gets to win one race a year for self-esteem. OK, so the second one is silly, but sports are dangerous and protecting the athletes is a nebulous concept for me that leads to the same logic as Mr. Pound's.
I agree. What I was trying to say (not too well) was to "protect" riders from doing drugs that could "f" them up (in contrast to the tent ban). Still, riders are now required to wear helmets, which I think is good.
inGobwetrust
07-26-2006, 02:53 PM
Lets ban endless pools!
Lets ban synthetic materials
Lets ban.....
Sheesh! I suppose man made snow will be on the list soon... :crap:
Unsafe drugs I can deal with...but 'cmon guys! I really don't care anymore - I just want to watch my races with the athletes I care about. I missed Jan this year. (glad that Landis won...but missed Jan)
+1
PaulE
07-26-2006, 03:08 PM
Increase your red blood cell count the natural way:
http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/velogear_1904_69460636
Lung capacity may be decreased though, so maybe smoking will also be banned!
Fixed
07-26-2006, 03:10 PM
I read all things carbon are next. and no tans
Serpico
07-26-2006, 03:19 PM
avispa, please train at aptitude before reading this thread again
catulle
07-26-2006, 03:23 PM
And wait until Benedict XVI is elected head of the UCI, atmo. It will get really tight, then.
And wait until Benedict XVI is elected head of the UCI, atmo. It will get really tight, then.
not if he's a descendant of Benedict IV atmo?
catulle
07-26-2006, 03:36 PM
not if he's a descendant of Benedict IV atmo?
Was he the one who brought wine to the church? If he was, then all is cool, atmo. Nothing to worry about. Back then them dudes not only had a wife, they were like the guys in Provo. Oh, the good old days.
shinomaster
07-26-2006, 03:37 PM
http://www.wayward.com/WAYWARD-FOOD.jpg
These should be banned..imho.
catulle
07-26-2006, 03:38 PM
http://www.wayward.com/WAYWARD-FOOD.jpg
These should be banned..imho.
Oh, you're mean and cruel.
shinomaster
07-26-2006, 03:39 PM
eggs make me ill..
vaxn8r
07-26-2006, 03:57 PM
Altitude tents were banned in Italy during the last winter olympics. XC Ski federations have been dealing with this issue already.
Anyhow, here's one editor's take on this. http://www.xcskiworld.com/news/Editor/editor_hotels.htm
Zap, great article. That's a very well thought out position.
I also have a problem with athlete development. The "have's" get richer and the "wannabe's" get further behind...unless they're also rich. I don't see how you can monitor altitude training or tent use so it's probably silly to regulate it. But in my prefect world they'd be illegal. So what if Austrians or Kenyans have an advantage in certain sports? That's part of the idea of international competition. Show what you're good at, genetically and geographically. Wanna move? Then move. ATMO...
Fat Robert
07-26-2006, 04:10 PM
i'm not a pro
after today's 4 hour grovel the only thing i know is that i suck
so
i could care less what the wada says about anything
not part of my world dude
flydhest
07-26-2006, 04:29 PM
Zap, great article. That's a very well thought out position.
I also have a problem with athlete development. The "have's" get richer and the "wannabe's" get further behind...unless they're also rich. I don't see how you can monitor altitude training or tent use so it's probably silly to regulate it. But in my prefect world they'd be illegal. So what if Austrians or Kenyans have an advantage in certain sports? That's part of the idea of international competition. Show what you're good at, genetically and geographically. Wanna move? Then move. ATMO...
. . . but the have's and wannabe's . . . isn't the same true about gear? The bigger the budget, the better stuff people have. In the perfect world is it also illegal to have better gear than others? Wind tunnel training? Not everyone can afford the best, so that should be banned? "Wanna move? Then move." Errr, then how about if I move several times a year. If you've got the budget, you don't need a tent, just get flown to altitude to sleep. Talk about a way to ensure that only teams with big budgets get the beneficial effects. Tents provide a cheaper solution, leveling the playing field.
shinomaster
07-26-2006, 05:16 PM
"God bless us, everyone!"*
*Tiny Tim
vaxn8r
07-26-2006, 06:54 PM
. . . but the have's and wannabe's . . . isn't the same true about gear? The bigger the budget, the better stuff people have. In the perfect world is it also illegal to have better gear than others? Wind tunnel training? Not everyone can afford the best, so that should be banned? "Wanna move? Then move." Errr, then how about if I move several times a year. If you've got the budget, you don't need a tent, just get flown to altitude to sleep. Talk about a way to ensure that only teams with big budgets get the beneficial effects. Tents provide a cheaper solution, leveling the playing field.
Again, I don't think you can regulate it so it's a mute point. But....per your argument if you carry it to an extreme, then make steroids, HCG, EPO gene therapy, make it all OK and hire doctors to monitor the athletes. It'd be a lot cheaper and safer if everyone did the same and it was monitored. Where do you personally draw the line? I'd guess we all have a "line" and I get to choose where I draw mine. Too bad I don't get a vote.
The UCI already set a precedent with bike weight, in an aim for fairness. This is along the same intent, though again, no way to assure compliance. But is that any reason to not deem it illegal? We can't test for HCG, designer steroids either...but those are banned.
Dekonick
07-26-2006, 08:04 PM
http://www.wayward.com/WAYWARD-FOOD.jpg
These should be banned..imho.
Oh - hell no!
Before they ban them ya gotta try em at the Wildcat Cafe in Snowmass. Not the best, but the view in the morning is awesome. :banana: AND you get altitude training to boot! :D
Avispa
07-26-2006, 08:07 PM
Originally Posted by atmo
this won't affect me; i live at attitude atmo.
hellllllllllllllllllooooooooooooooooooooooooo...
Opppsss! My hematocrit was too high, it got into my retina!
avispa, please train at aptitude before reading this thread again
No problem smart arse... Perhaps you can teach me some tricks on the way!
JohnS
07-26-2006, 09:04 PM
Again, I don't think you can regulate it so it's a mute point. But....per your argument if you carry it to an extreme, then make steroids, HCG, EPO gene therapy, make it all OK and hire doctors to monitor the athletes. It'd be a lot cheaper and safer if everyone did the same and it was monitored. Where do you personally draw the line? I'd guess we all have a "line" and I get to choose where I draw mine. Too bad I don't get a vote.
The UCI already set a precedent with bike weight, in an aim for fairness. This is along the same intent, though again, no way to assure compliance. But is that any reason to not deem it illegal? We can't test for HCG, designer steroids either...but those are banned.
So what kind of point are you making? If it's a "moot" point, it's not worth talking about and if it's a "mute" point, you're unable to talk about it. Either way, you spent two full paragraphs talking about it.
Moot...the new Obtuse! :)
Samster
07-26-2006, 11:32 PM
not if he's a descendant of Benedict IV atmo?sorry... all IV's are also banned.
vaxn8r
07-27-2006, 12:24 AM
So what kind of point are you making? If it's a "moot" point, it's not worth talking about and if it's a "mute" point, you're unable to talk about it. Either way, you spent two full paragraphs talking about it.
Moot...the new Obtuse! :)
Whatever. Thanks for trying to be obtuse...though there's only one obtuse so quit being a jerk.
oracle
07-27-2006, 12:43 AM
Kirkissimo has it.
As I said before, all roads lead to Harrison Bergeron.
You reckon they should ban rehydration by IV? That's introducing a chemical substance (it's usually a saline or similar solution) directly into your bloodstream.
more harrison b. for the fans.. (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=4306&postcount=13)
i love that little story...
swoop
07-27-2006, 12:56 AM
in order to keep the tour pure we must ban the riders themselves. this next year we can just line the bikes up at the start and see which bike wins.
if we do include actual people.. they all have to eat the same thing, train the same schedule, live in the same climate and altitude, sleep at the same time, and take the same dope.
the problem with boundaries is that a line has to be drawn somewhere. the clever boundary maker draws the line so far afield from the actual issue that the issue itself doesn't have to be seen.
don't even look at it.
oracle
07-27-2006, 12:59 AM
in order to keep the tour pure we must ban the riders themselves. this next year we can just line the bikes up at the start and see which bike wins.
if we do include actual people.. they all have to eat the same thing, train the same schedule, live in the same climate and altitude, sleep at the same time, and take the same dope.
cool... sounds like it could be _the clone wars_ meet the tdf.
flydhest
07-27-2006, 07:53 AM
Whatever. Thanks for trying to be obtuse...though there's only one obtuse so quit being a jerk.
Far from being obtuse, I thought John had acute insight, though calling for him to be mute may be moot as he has apparently made up his mind on the subject.
There's a lot of very easy sarcasm on this thread, and only a little insight. Either institutions of sport try to regulate the playing field, and control doping, or they don't. If they do (and I think they should), then they have to consider altitude tents, since they are clearly a grey area. It's not at all obvious to me that they are harmless and innocent training devices.
So what are the pros and cons? And would you use one?
Pro:
I like the argument that they can help to level the playing field; I hadn't thought of it that way.
One could think of them as being like rollers: they allow you to do something indoors that one could do outdoors.
They don't involve injections or pills!
Con:
Are they really harmless? That is, have studies been done to prove that their effects on the body are only positive. (The Times article implied, btw, that even their positive benefits have not clearly been proven.) It may be ignorance on my part, but I'd certainly be hesitant about using one regularly simply out of anxiety that mucking around with the air one breathes, and the nature of one's blood.
Are their benefits artificial? Do we think of it as a kind of trick, a short-cut to improved conditioning? This seems to be what WADA is considering, that athletes get something for nothing. Athletes are passive, inert, when receiving the benefit. I think this does get to the heart of the conceptual issue. Supporters of the tent say that there's no such thing as passive benefit, that rest is a crucial part of training, and that altitude tents offer a way of optimizing rest, like massage, or a really comfortable mattress. I understand the logic of this, but I also see a crucial difference. Rest allows one's body to heal and recover, to return to a state maximum potential produced by the training itself. Altitude tents offer a benefit clearly beyond this.
I guess I lean towards banning them. On the other hand, actual dope is so much more clearly a problem that one wishes they'd just stick to that issue and get it figured out before distracting folks with a problem that clearly is not doping!
flydhest
07-27-2006, 08:50 AM
Onno,
I disagree that they are particularly grey. I don't see how they are different from altitude except in ease of use and lower cost. I assert, with no sarcasm at all, that if one considers hypoxic/hypobaric tents of dubious ethical status, then rehydrating via IV has got to be at least as "grey."
Fly, I check my own thinking about issues like this with the question would I be comfortable using or doing X. I think routine rehydration by IV (as opposed to emergency rehydration) is also a grey area, actually. I can't imagine doing this, and it does strike me as highly artificial.
The flaw with my method is that I'm an amateur. Presumably professionals can get comfortable with new methods and equipment pretty quickly if they deliver results.
Completely apart from perhaps overly complicated questions about what is natural and what is not, I guess I tend to support the idea that restricting athletes and their coaches from break-neck competition off the field in pursuit of hyper fitness is a good thing. In general these restrictions level the playing field, protect the athlete, and help to focus attention on the sport itself.
vaxn8r
07-27-2006, 11:42 AM
Far from being obtuse, I thought John had acute insight, though calling for him to be mute may be moot as he has apparently made up his mind on the subject.
I hate to see honest debate turn into ridicule regarding spelling errors. If your best comeback is "you spelled it wrong hah ha!" well, that's real mature. I sometimes post in a hurry between patients or procedures. I think you can get the meaning of the original post without too much difficulty.
And for the record John, a moot point is not defined as "not worth discussing". It means it's a more theoretical issue or has limited application. Kinda like banning oxygen tents. I still have a right to an opinion even on moot or mute points.
JohnS
07-27-2006, 11:57 AM
I hate to see honest debate turn into ridicule regarding spelling errors. If your best comeback is "you spelled it wrong hah ha!" well, that's real mature. I sometimes post in a hurry between patients or procedures. I think you can get the meaning of the original post without too much difficulty.
And for the record John, a moot point is not defined as "not worth discussing". It means it's a more theoretical issue or has limited application. Kinda like banning oxygen tents. I still have a right to an opinion even on moot or mute points.
They'res a big diffrance between spelling airers and using the wrong word entirely. :)
New joke---Q. Why do doctors write illegibly? A. So you don't know that they can't spell. :beer:
flydhest
07-27-2006, 12:17 PM
I hate to see honest debate turn into ridicule regarding spelling errors. If your best comeback is "you spelled it wrong hah ha!" well, that's real mature. I sometimes post in a hurry between patients or procedures. I think you can get the meaning of the original post without too much difficulty.
And for the record John, a moot point is not defined as "not worth discussing". It means it's a more theoretical issue or has limited application. Kinda like banning oxygen tents. I still have a right to an opinion even on moot or mute points.
My best "comeback" is not to point out a spelling error. Indeed, as John pointed out, it's not a spelling error it's a misapprehension of the meaning of the words. The reason I didn't continue was the because of the flawed logic in the previous post you made; I didn't see a point in continuing.
Moot actually means a point that is no longer relevant, but may be interesting as an academic excercise. The "no longer" part is the important one. In legal circles, the two concepts of "moot" and "not ripe" are related. The first implies the issue no longer needs to be decided, and the second means that the issue does not need to be decided yet.
Lincoln
07-27-2006, 12:37 PM
Vax,
I knew what you were trying to say. :beer:
Louis
09-16-2006, 09:16 PM
Follow-up on this subject, more news from our buddy D!ck Pound:
September 16, 2006
WADA Stops Short of Banning Hypoxic Tents
By REUTERS
Filed at 9:50 p.m. ET
MONTREAL (Reuters) - The World Anti-Doping Agency stopped short of banning the use of hypoxic tents on Saturday but cautioned that their use could pose health risks.
The use of hypoxic tents, which simulate high altitude conditions, has become commonplace among the world's high performance and professional athletes.can increase the natural production of erythropoetin (EPO), stimulating the growth of oxygen-carrying red blood.
``In response to our stakeholders who requested that there be full consideration of hypoxic conditions in the context of the Prohibited List, WADA performed a scientific and ethical review of the matter, and engaged in a thorough consultation with experts and stakeholders,'' WADA president **** Pound said in a statement.
``While we do not deem this method appropriate for inclusion on the list at this time, we still wish to express the concern that, in addition to the results varying individually from case to case, use of this method may pose health risks if not properly implemented and under medical supervision.''
WADA's scientific committees and ethical issues review panel carried out a thorough examination of the scientific literature and opinions from experts on the use of artificially produced hypoxic conditions.
The committees found that the method was performance enhancing and contrary to the spirit of sport but was inconclusive about the method's threat to athletes' health.
Committee members suggested that the International Olympic Committee (IOC) medical commission look into the impact of artificially-induced hypoxic conditions on athletes' health.
The WADA executive committee also approved the list of prohibited substances and methods for 2007 at its meeting on Saturday.
The list was clarified to state that all stimulants are prohibited and to incorporate benzylpiperazine in the list of stimulant examples.
inGobwetrust
09-16-2006, 11:01 PM
Man, I hate those guys!
Marcusaurelius
09-17-2006, 09:32 AM
How is an altitude tent more honest than EPO? Really, what is the difference?
I think you are being a little obtuse if you can't see the difference between taking a banned substance and sitting in an altitude tent which is no different than training in the mountains. I suppose next hyperbaric chamber will be banned because it lets athletes heal quickly from injuries.
Grant McLean
09-17-2006, 09:39 AM
from cyclingnews.com
"Pound also said that WADA's next executive committee meeting, scheduled on Saturday, would address the question of banning hypoxic tents, which simulate high altitude and boost red blood cells. The agency found that the chambers have an effect on performance, and are "against the spirit of sport", making them eligible for be prohibited.
"The moral question is simple," Pound said. "It is one thing if you are prepared to go physically endure the rigours of training at altitude. But to be at sea level and climb into a tent and go to sleep pretending you're at altitude, and getting the same result, is artificial." He added that the decision-making would not be easy: "It's an issue that probably attracts more heat than light in the discussions. There are entrenched positions on both sides."
Pretending??????
g
Birddog
09-17-2006, 10:15 AM
WADA is a bureaucracy with a power mad goofus in charge, would you expect anything less? I said it once before, the enforcers/rulemakers in this mess are just as bad as the cheaters.
Birddog
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