Replenishing Glygogen During Long Rides

[Splash]

Hello All.

For double century rides, what is the best way to replenish glycogen levels?

What forms of glycogen intake are suggested?

What frequency should this be taken at?

What signs emerge to signify gloycogen levels are too low?


Splash

[jr59]

You need to experiment with many different forms of nutrition to find out what works best for you. No one size fits all. From all of the shots, blocks, bars and drinks out there it's hard to tell what works best for your system. Nothing worse than being about 45 miles into a ride and finding out that did not help, or even worse , that made my bowels weak!

I like real food. PB&J, fig newtons, even some granola bars. When things start to go bad, a small coke and a snickers bar help. Good Luck in the search


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[oldpotatoe]

You need to experiment with many different forms of nutrition to find out what works best for you. No one size fits all. From all of the shots, blocks, bars and drinks out there it's hard to tell what works best for your system. Nothing worse than being about 45 miles into a ride and finding out that did not help, or even worse , that made my bowels weak!

I like real food. PB&J, fig newtons, even some granola bars. When things start to go bad, a small coke and a snickers bar help. Good Luck in the search


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Kidding, sort of..:D

[ripvanrando]

Low osmolality solutions. I make my own. For really long rides, I'll start the day with 4 egg mcmuffins and lots of coffee with cream and sugar. Two quarter pounders and a large shake seems to burn well too once the fur acne gets going. I do have some favorite off the shelf drinks but that stuff is expensive.

[OtayBW]

Hello All.

For double century rides, what is the best way to replenish glycogen levels?

What forms of glycogen intake are suggested?

What frequency should this be taken at?

What signs emerge to signify gloycogen levels are too low?


Splash
Replenish glycogen levels during long rides? As far as I know, you're not gonna replenish glycogen during the ride once it is ~depleted. You need to fuel the ride by blood sugar levels. Or are you asking about replenishing glycogen after the ride?

[Tickdoc]

I like skittles and payday bars, but that is just me.

[unterhausen]

yes, you don't want to deplete glycogen. I have had trouble eating on some long distance rides. It usually has to do with my fitness, the more fit I am the more easily I can eat. I use a 6 part carb to 1/2 part protein powder concoction in my water bottle. I used to try to use a high concentration, but weaker seems better. This works for me to get to the magical 100 mile point, when I usually can eat with no problems. You don't really need to eat that much to make it 200 miles. There is a big psychological component in this, I just try to take in some calories. Our bodies will shut down if that doesn't happen, but it takes very little in the way of calories to keep this from happening. Oftentimes on a 400k, I will not eat for a period of 30-40 miles during the halfway stretch with no issues.

If I am really having trouble eating, fries work really well for me. I often forget how good bananas are for rides, which is funny given that was our food of choice back in the '70s. I can only eat so many though, 4 seems to be my limit for 250 miles.

It's funny how this has changed for me. I once made it almost all the way across North Carolina on chocolate milk and reese's cups, with the occasional soda thrown in. I usually just eat what appeals to me. But never pizza, unless I have a little time to digest it.

[regularguy412]

yes, you don't want to deplete glycogen. I have had trouble eating on some long distance rides. It usually has to do with my fitness, the more fit I am the more easily I can eat. I use a 6 part carb to 1/2 part protein powder concoction in my water bottle. I used to try to use a high concentration, but weaker seems better. This works for me to get to the magical 100 mile point, when I usually can eat with no problems. You don't really need to eat that much to make it 200 miles. There is a big psychological component in this, I just try to take in some calories. Our bodies will shut down if that doesn't happen, but it takes very little in the way of calories to keep this from happening. Oftentimes on a 400k, I will not eat for a period of 30-40 miles during the halfway stretch with no issues.

If I am really having trouble eating, fries work really well for me. I often forget how good bananas are for rides, which is funny given that was our food of choice back in the '70s. I can only eat so many though, 4 seems to be my limit for 250 miles.

It's funny how this has changed for me. I once made it almost all the way across North Carolina on chocolate milk and reese's cups, with the occasional soda thrown in. I usually just eat what appeals to me. But never pizza, unless I have a little time to digest it.

I do something akin to the bolded portion above^^

My thinking is that I want to slow-feed my body with the stuff it's using up as I go along. If I'm doing short-ish (35-45 mile) really hard efforts with a group, I'll start some hydration ahead of time with just an amino acid or BCAA drink (no carbs) then work in the amino acid/Skratch drink mixture when the riding starts. The liquid protein in a drink by itself seems to help with reducing muscle soreness. On really long and not quite as intense rides, I'll use some real food like fig bars, small apple pies, or even glucose tablets. For me, it's usually best to wait until I'm completely finished with the ride or very near the end before trying to consume any harder to digest stuff like chicken or burgers. I'll often slug down some BCAAs in water within 5-10 minutes after I've finished riding, too.

Mike in AR:beer:

[bigbill]

I've done several doubles including 4 one day STP's. On STP, I'd eat two cinnamon rolls with coffee an hour before the ride. I'd carry 5-6 gels in my jersey pocket for the longer stretches between stops. Gels are a stop gap measure on a long effort, you need solid food. You also need calories in your water bottle but that is harder to manage than food. In the 97 STP I bonked at 100 miles but ten minutes off the bike to have a heat lamp cheeseburger and a coke at a Circle K fixed that. For me, the wall is around 120-130 miles, once I make it past that the ride feels the same all the way to 200. The wall usually means I'll stop for a coke and something sugary. For me, a cold coke fixes a lot of what ails me, especially cramping.

You can go into a double with grand ideas of nutrition, but the bottom line is your body wants calories and isn't really that choosy what kind it gets.

[unterhausen]

one thing about my home mix, I used to do 6 to 1 ratio. I would get nauseous after about 100 miles on that. The protein is just in there to make it so it can be digested, and too much is bad. 12 to 1 still might have too much protein, but I haven't really been riding much long distance since June, and so I don't have current experience.

[steamer]

Most people need to keep their intake between 200 and 400 cal per hour, depending on personal tolerance, weather, intensity, and what is being consumed. Eating too much is about as bad as eating too little.

[Splash]

Replenish glycogen levels during long rides? As far as I know, you're not gonna replenish glycogen during the ride once it is ~depleted. You need to fuel the ride by blood sugar levels. Or are you asking about replenishing glycogen after the ride?

Thanks. I am referring to during the ride not before or after the ride.

I am keen to know what is required so that my glocogen levels do not become depleted during the ride.

Splash

[Mikej]

Replenish glycogen levels during long rides? As far as I know, you're not gonna replenish glycogen during the ride once it is ~depleted. You need to fuel the ride by blood sugar levels. Or are you asking about replenishing glycogen after the ride?

Pretty certain this is the case-you may be thinking of "how not to bonk"
And they will become depleted, best advice is to ride a couple of couple hundies to see what you're in for...

[unterhausen]

I am keen to know what is required so that my glocogen levels do not become depleted during the ride.
I'm sure they get replenished during a ride if you eat right. My experience on the 1200k's I have done is that I feel fine the third and 4th days, even if I push myself pretty hard. And the most sleep I've gotten on one of those rides is 11 hours total over the 90 hours. Least sleep being 6 hours of sleep over 94 hours. After 400 km the first day, the second day is always tough for me until about dinner time. Must be some adaptation that takes place. But I think this means that glycogen is constantly being replaced, because you obviously are using it along the way.

[Joxster]

A bottle of coffee, honey and brandy, we used to have these given to us with about 60km to go during races. The alcohol is a quick source of energy and the caffeine gets it into your system while the honey helps replenish the glycogen in your liver. Make yourself some flapjack to take with you, oats, dates, apricots, butter and honey.

[muz]

Stored glycogen is the proverbial "matches"; burn them too early and you will suffer at the end. On double centuries and longer rides, you need to avoid going anaerobic as much as possible. You can take in about 300 cal/hr, and rely on fat burning for the rest.

Occasionally you may have to go extra hard to stay with a group, for example if there is a short steep hill followed by a long flat section, you don't want to be dropped and lose the draft advantage. That's where stored glycogen comes handy.

I do long rides (up to 1200K) on fixed gear, and you need to go very hard in short bursts to be able to over steep bumps. So you learn to save the glycogen, don't exceed 90% of aerobic threshold if you can help it.

[Splash]

A bottle of coffee, honey and brandy, we used to have these given to us with about 60km to go during races. The alcohol is a quick source of energy and the caffeine gets it into your system while the honey helps replenish the glycogen in your liver. Make yourself some flapjack to take with you, oats, dates, apricots, butter and honey.

Great stuff!

I didn't realise the liver was such an important part of this process.


Splash

[11.4]

Splash, there's actually a very active dynamic going on here. Your body takes mostly sugars and stores the energy as glycogen and does this in particular in the liver. However, the processes of transferring energy to glycogen and then out again are not the fastest.

In an athlete who is carefully managing energy levels, when you're sleeping or resting you are replenishing glycogen levels, but when you're actively riding, you mostly consume the sugars that enter the bloodstream and transform them directly to energy. If you're managing it well, it's not that you are replenishing glycogen at a rate equal to consumption, but rather that you aren't consuming that glycogen. Radioisotopic tracing shows that very little glycogen gets cycled as long as you don't become energy-deficient. At that point you start depleting glycogen and then your body tends to divert part of the sugar in your blood to rebuild glycogen, leaving you with marginally less to consume on the spot.

All this is complicated by your carbohydrate regulatory system, controlled by a number of hormones including, in particular, insulin. If your body tries to regulate to a sugar level inconsistent with the net amount produced by what you eat, what you use, and what gets tied up in glycogen, it can force you into either a hyperglycemic state where you can't perform well, or a hypoglycemic one which is equally bad. Your body basically messes up its own regulatory system because it doesn't quite understand what you're doing and can't predict how you're trying to balance your sugar levels.

I'm putting this rather simplistically, but the point is that you not only need to eat nonstop, but you also need to have a good idea of how much you need to consume to be stable. It's really beneficial to have ridden distances and intensities like this before and learned how to manage your energy levels.

When you eat during a ride, you really don't want to trigger insulin-related responses. Now most carbohydrates are going to be metabolized down to the same sugars anyway, but through a pathway whose regulation helps manage blood insulin levels. Rather than eating sugar (as in sugared sodas), eat food that keeps your regulatory systems in neutral mode. I'd suggest you check out Allen Lim's "Feedzone Portables", which gives a bunch of recipes for snacks designed for cycling. If you don't want to get that involved, I'd at least stick to foods you've found have worked for you. Organic fig newtons work well for me, but not for others. Don't plan on electrolyte drinks to provide the energy -- they should only have enough to make them less disruptive on your stomach, and are there principally to supply water and then some inorganic salts. I also find that chocolate milk works well, on the borderline of too much simple sugar, but also little dishes of rice pudding. I like to make hardened rice puddings (enough solidity so I can hold a wedge in my fingers and eat it easily). Make all kinds of flavors with all kinds of fruit and other fillings. This is really my reinterpretation of Allen Lim's ideas for my own stomach. Try the same and see what you can do.

[YesNdeed]

Kidding, sort of..:D

Actually, I have found, for me, that a combination of carbs (mono and poly saccharides), and a good portion of slow digesting protein is imperative during endurance rides. Maybe not McDonalds, but that was the kidding part, I know ;) My last 220 miler could have used more water though. And more salt.

[Splash]

Thanks 11.4 -

Wow - you guys know your stuff!

The liquids and solids stated by Joxter in Post #15 sounds interesting.

Would these particular solids and liquids be the type that would keep the regulatory systems in neutral mode?


Splash

[joosttx]

Perpetuem . Is my staple for long rides.

[OtayBW]

All this is good information, and everyone finds their way regarding what works best for him/her - but to the OP's point, it takes many hours to replace glycogen reserves once the activity has ended. I don't know that glycogen is replenished during the activity, particularly during a double.

[oldpotatoe]

Actually, I have found, for me, that a combination of carbs (mono and poly saccharides), and a good portion of slow digesting protein is imperative during endurance rides. Maybe not McDonalds, but that was the kidding part, I know ;) My last 220 miler could have used more water though. And more salt.

That wasn't a MIckeyD's burger. BUT I don't get all sweated up eating there once in a while. All things in moderation, even moderation.

BUT about 70 miles into a 115 miler in CA..got a burger and coke...and it made the remaining 45 miles more better. :D

[cdn_bacon]

try this product.

it's a pure carbohydrate. mixes well with other drinks, not cheap. WADA certified and I found that a half dose 35grams works well enough for me. Varies on the person. They have single serve packs at most nutrition stores.

http://www.vitargo.com

Designed by a University. Calmed my legs right down.

[Mikej]

Try all and everything prior to an event- I personally have to ingest all supplements in the first hour of racing, after that my stomachs blood supply loses out to my body's high temperature and my brains demand to cool off before processing anything in the stomach-I'd love to find the answer (other than slowing down) to overcome this on the fly, but even water will cause nausea during his time-mtb racing by the way-

[marciero]

Another consideration is that the body can access one or more of several different energy "pathways". The extent to which any of these is accessed when you are riding varies from rider to rider-is probably determined to some extent by genetics but it can also be affected through training, diet, etc, and also depends on intensity. If you are fueling your body mostly with fat and protein you will not need to eat as frequently, for example.

[Ed-B]

Another consideration is that the body can access one or more of several different energy "pathways". The extent to which any of these is accessed when you are riding varies from rider to rider-is probably determined to some extent by genetics but it can also be affected through training, diet, etc, and also depends on intensity. If you are fueling your body mostly with fat and protein you will not need to eat as frequently, for example.

I thought of this story earlier in the thread, and now with your post I think it's appropriate to share the link. Here's a guy who changed his diet, became fat-adapted, and trained for a 300Km ride:

http://road.cc/content/feature/196523-mighty-corinthian

[Ti Designs]

I'm putting this rather simplistically, but the point is that you not only need to eat nonstop, but you also need to have a good idea of how much you need to consume to be stable. It's really beneficial to have ridden distances and intensities like this before and learned how to manage your energy levels.

This is the advice I always give my riders, they hear the words, they see my lips moving, but somehow it doesn't register. We have a few months of base mileage (hours in zone 3) where they need to learn how to fuel the body for a long road race. My rule is 250 - 300 calories an hour, simple sugars need to be taken in smaller amounts more frequently, but I would like to see them feeding themselves every half hour. We've gotten 2 hours into a ride, I'll ask one of my riders how much they've eaten so far, and they give me a confused look - eat???

So here's the thing: nobody is going to be able to tell you what's going to work for your body, that's one of those things you learn in training. I can tell you that 300 calories/hour is a lot of food. I use Sunbelt bars, they average about 150 cal/bar, so on a 4 hour base mileage ride I'm leaving home with 8 bars - that's a lot of food. If you do the same ride a lot, base your eating points on places or landmarks, not time. Time sometimes flies by, I find myself thinking "I'll eat in 10 minutes", but I never do. Landmarks work a lot better, especially with group rides.

[ojingoh]

I thought of this story earlier in the thread, and now with your post I think it's appropriate to share the link. Here's a guy who changed his diet, became fat-adapted, and trained for a 300Km ride:

http://road.cc/content/feature/196523-mighty-corinthian

Fat-adapted is the grail of endurance riders. Sky is known to be hugely motivated to this goal for their riders.

I've been thinking of this a lot: If glycogen is stored in the liver, spleen and muscle tissue, does it make sense to add more muscle fiber, even though more muscle is more weight? For the flats, it might make some sense. For endurance climbing any extra mass is a hindrance, and perhaps that's why the focus from pro teams on relatively low glycogen store athletes.