Less gears but still STI?

[Dead Man]

Hola gentlemen.

How could one go about reducing the number of gears on a modern STI bike?

Surely nobody makes STI shifters indexed for 3x or 4x rear shifting... Is there someway you could modify existing stuff to do this? Ideal gearing would be something like 15, 20, 27.. or 15, 20, 24, 28.. ish. What would happen if you tore a cassette apart and tried to just shift between these gears? Issues with the shift ramps? This is an area I've done no considering, prior to this wacky idea I'm having. Maybe limit der range by bringing in the stops from both ends (do the stops offer enough limitation to reduce a 10 or 11 speed cassette to 3 or 4 gears?).. you might end up with sticky shifters if you tried to shift past the 3rd or 4th gear, but nothing a corrective click wouldn't fix maybe?

Would, perhaps, this be easier to do with some 7-speed RSX shifters? Or is the biggest hurtle just getting past the spacing (not indexing)?

Is my brain working right on this, sitting here at my desk, rain falling heavily out my office window, bikes all hung up in the garage at home, or am I missing some fatal problem that makes this an attempt at the impossible?

Anyone ever do something like this? Other obscure products out there maybe?

Would be 1x up front

Any insight or links to products appreciated

-B

[FlashUNC]

How about just the leave 10-11 speed on there, and only shift through 4 gears?

Is there some desire to have it be terrible shifting with wide gaps? Do you hate yourself?

[John H.]

You could use additional cassette spacers instead of cogs and limit the derailleur travel- but why would you?

[eBAUMANN]

why not get a 3spd IGH or something?

[SoCalSteve]

Hola gentlemen.

How could one go about reducing the number of gears on a modern STI bike?

Surely nobody makes STI shifters indexed for 3x or 4x rear shifting... Is there someway you could modify existing stuff to do this? Ideal gearing would be something like 15, 20, 27.. or 15, 20, 24, 28.. ish. What would happen if you tore a cassette apart and tried to just shift between these gears? Issues with the shift ramps? This is an area I've done no considering, prior to this wacky idea I'm having. Maybe limit der range by bringing in the stops from both ends (do the stops offer enough limitation to reduce a 10 or 11 speed cassette to 3 or 4 gears?).. you might end up with sticky shifters if you tried to shift past the 3rd or 4th gear, but nothing a corrective click wouldn't fix maybe?

Would, perhaps, this be easier to do with some 7-speed RSX shifters? Or is the biggest hurtle just getting past the spacing (not indexing)?

Is my brain working right on this, sitting here at my desk, rain falling heavily out my office window, bikes all hung up in the garage at home, or am I missing some fatal problem that makes this an attempt at the impossible?

Anyone ever do something like this? Other obscure products out there maybe?

Would be 1x up front

Any insight or links to products appreciated

-B

I guess in Los Angeles we don't think about these things ( cuz it never rains )...:eek:

[Dead Man]

why not get a 3spd IGH or something?

Is there a way to get that to work with drop bars? I've never looked at these things before today... am actively reading about it, but looks like they're pretty much all setup for flat/otherwise non-drop-bar road bikes... cruisers, MTBs, etc.

I'm also not finding much about what kind of gearing you can get from them, but so far have read that they usually don't have a very wide spread (still reading tho)

[Dead Man]

I guess in Los Angeles we don't think about these things ( cuz it never rains )...:eek:

And I envy you for that. Oh how I'd love to move to San Diego... wife refuses.

But.. this isn't just idle musing. I really want to build this. Bad.

[notsew]

My buddy has an alfine hub with the twist shifter attached to the end of the drops. Works well for him, like bar ends. Not sure how he put it together, but could probably get some pics if interested.

I also keep telling my wife we need to move to san diego. She does not agree.

[bikinchris]

Sturmey Archer does make a barcon shifter for their wide ratio 3 and 5 speed hubs.

[echelon_john]

If you really want to get project-y, you could make a custom cassette based on 8sp spacing with the 4 cogs you want centered on chainline, then either use a friction DT or Barend shifter, or for extra credit you could pick up a set of Gripshift CX-DT barrel shifters (that go on the drops) and use 3-d printing to recreate the plastic 'stepped' piece based on x4 shifting instead of x8; relatively simple since it would be doubling the width of the notches.

Edit: I take that back; you wouldn't even have to fab a new stepped piece, because the 4 cogs would just be using 8sp spacing. You'd just use the limit screws on the derailleur to stay on those 4 cogs, and use whatever part of the range on the shifter that you like. You could even do the same with X speed and X speed STI if you want! The shifting will suck because of the large gaps, but it's worth a try! ; )

Go nuts!

[AngryScientist]

this is easy, no?

get some 9-sp shifters, and a single speed spacer kit, and a loose cog cassette. insert your desired 4 cogs on hub and fill in with spacers. use RD limit screws to lockout the RD travel to those 4 cogs.

it should be that simple, i think.

[dton]

Does it need to be indexed...? http://gevenalle.com/product/audax/

http://gevenalle.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/EURAUDAX-Shifter-400x400.jpg

I love these guys' shifters :hello:

[bicycletricycle]

yes, this is possible. shifting will suffer some as the gaps between cogs gets bigger, also depends on the cogs you use. a few options are available. The hardest thing in some ways is getting the proper hub. if you use a regular hub with just some spacers behind the cogs than why bother, you have not gained very much. On the other hand, if you use a hub with a shortened freehub body than it is a good plan IMHO (mostly the benefit is a stronger back wheel with less dish, possible lighter weight depending on the hub you end up using)

parts you need-

hope single speed or chris king single speed hub, also the gran bois 5/6 speed 120mm spaced rear hub can be used if you can get someone to machine you a new axle spacer on the non drive side. The hope hub is spaced 135 but can be pretty easily modified to be 130mm with a lathe.

(I can help with basic machine work if needed)

individual cogs can be gotten from a cut apart lower end cassette that is made of riveted together cogs.

I think the hope hub can take 4 speeds, king 3 or 4 and the gran bois 5 or 6.

Jeff Jones of Jones bicycles does this a lot mostly on king hubs.

[Geeheeb]

I have Versa VRS-8 which is an 8 speed STI alfine shifter. It was a bit finicky to setup, but worked great once it was tweaked.

[Ken Robb]

And I envy you for that. Oh how I'd love to move to San Diego... wife refuses.

But.. this isn't just idle musing. I really want to build this. Bad.

If you and/or your wife want to talk to a guy who came to SD on a corporate transfer in 1970 and refused to leave call me. I'm in the book. Or send me a PM here and I'll call you. It's not the paradise it was 40 years ago but it's still pretty darn good. I understand that Portland isn't as lovely now as it was 20 years ago either.

I was a Realtor for 36 years and counseled many people about relocating over those years. I've been retired for 9 years so I have no axe to grind here. :beer:

[Dead Man]

this is easy, no?

get some 9-sp shifters, and a single speed spacer kit, and a loose cog cassette. insert your desired 4 cogs on hub and fill in with spacers. use RD limit screws to lockout the RD travel to those 4 cogs.

it should be that simple, i think.

This is pretty much exactly what I'm hoping for.

Any specific reason for the 9 speed, though? I've got 7900 on the bike I want to do this.. only issue I know I might have is the freehub - I think it might be 7800/7801... which obviously isn't going to take regular SS conversion spacers. I'll have to look when I get home

Easy enough to fix with different wheels, though.. and if this setup works, and is as rad as I think it might me, then it'll be small price to pay

[oldpotatoe]

Hola gentlemen.

How could one go about reducing the number of gears on a modern STI bike?

Surely nobody makes STI shifters indexed for 3x or 4x rear shifting... Is there someway you could modify existing stuff to do this? Ideal gearing would be something like 15, 20, 27.. or 15, 20, 24, 28.. ish. What would happen if you tore a cassette apart and tried to just shift between these gears? Issues with the shift ramps? This is an area I've done no considering, prior to this wacky idea I'm having. Maybe limit der range by bringing in the stops from both ends (do the stops offer enough limitation to reduce a 10 or 11 speed cassette to 3 or 4 gears?).. you might end up with sticky shifters if you tried to shift past the 3rd or 4th gear, but nothing a corrective click wouldn't fix maybe?

Would, perhaps, this be easier to do with some 7-speed RSX shifters? Or is the biggest hurtle just getting past the spacing (not indexing)?

Is my brain working right on this, sitting here at my desk, rain falling heavily out my office window, bikes all hung up in the garage at home, or am I missing some fatal problem that makes this an attempt at the impossible?

Anyone ever do something like this? Other obscure products out there maybe?

Would be 1x up front

Any insight or links to products appreciated

-B

Rear wheel...spacer, spacer, spacer, selected cog, spacer, selected cog, spacer, selected cog...spacer, spacer..you get the idea. Limit screws(probably LONG ones, to get rear der on first cog and then the other to make sure it doesn't go any further)..But why would you do this?

Cannot modify a shifter to shift bigger spacing or anything like that.

[Dead Man]

Rear wheel...spacer, spacer, spacer, selected cog, spacer, selected cog, spacer, selected cog...spacer, spacer..you get the idea. Limit screws(probably LONG ones, to get rear der on first cog and then the other to make sure it doesn't go any further)..But why would you do this?

Cannot modify a shifter to shift bigger spacing or anything like that.

Is there anything about this likely to make shifting slow or glitchy? I know the ramps are generally lined up in some kind of organized fashion on a regular cassette, but I don't know if that's to improve shifting quality or maybe "just because." Given that jumps of as much as 4 are pretty common on the larger cassettes at the lower ends, I am hoping this would still be snappy shifting (and needs to be to be worth it)

[Hindmost]

...But why would you do this?..

My question too.

I like to follow threads about "how-to" and fixing broken things and I usually understand why someone is attempting to do stuff including the things that I may not chose to do myself. But this one has me stumped.

[oldpotatoe]

Is there anything about this likely to make shifting slow or glitchy? I know the ramps are generally lined up in some kind of organized fashion on a regular cassette, but I don't know if that's to improve shifting quality or maybe "just because." Given that jumps of as much as 4 are pretty common on the larger cassettes at the lower ends, I am hoping this would still be snappy shifting (and needs to be to be worth it)

Those big jumps, 15 to 20, it will be slow as the chain 'waits' for the shift ramp. Since sti doesn't over shift then center.

[bikinchris]

Another point is that if your stops aren't perfectly adjusted, you will jam the STI shifter and until you unbolt the anchor, you won't be able to get the shifter to work.
Shimano is terrible for that.

Also, Sun XCD makes a hub that only has room for 6 cogs. It is a well made freehub.

http://sunxcd.net/hubs/

[shovelhd]

If you intend to race it, don't forget about neutral support.

[Dead Man]

Those big jumps, 15 to 20, it will be slow as the chain 'waits' for the shift ramp. Since sti doesn't over shift then center.

Would no more than 4 teeth between each work better? If I did 1x4 instead of 1x3, I could probably settle on cogs no more than 4 apart fairly easily. 3 would be more in the spirit of what I'm trying to accomplish, but shifting definitely needs to be smooth... or at least fast (if those two things can be mutually exclusive)

If you intend to race it, don't forget about neutral support.

Indeed- it is to race. But only for CX, so generally no neutral support. If I didn't put a wheel in the pit, there's none waiting for me there anyway.. but that's a good thing to point out. I'll need to build at least two of these.

[shovelhd]

At least half of the CX races around here have neutral support.

[oldpotatoe]

Would no more than 4 teeth between each work better? If I did 1x4 instead of 1x3, I could probably settle on cogs no more than 4 apart fairly easily. 3 would be more in the spirit of what I'm trying to accomplish, but shifting definitely needs to be smooth... or at least fast (if those two things can be mutually exclusive)

Indeed- it is to race. But only for CX, so generally no neutral support. If I didn't put a wheel in the pit, there's none waiting for me there anyway.. but that's a good thing to point out. I'll need to build at least two of these.

Not really sure. It'll shift, I suspect, but not as well as 'matched' cogs that have fewer teeth differences. Think some of the 'mega' freewheels with 20-24-30 type jumps.

[93legendti]

Triple crankset and don't shift the rear der., leaving it in the same cog?

[jr59]

Triple crankset and don't shift the rear der., leaving it in the same cog?



That is the best idea in this thread.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dead Man]

All front shifting in CX? Seems like you'd be cross ringing and dropping the chain 5 times a lap.. Plus, none of the best front shifting groups even come in triple. In shimano, at least.. What I use

[oldpotatoe]

All front shifting in CX? Seems like you'd be cross ringing and dropping the chain 5 times a lap.. Plus, none of the best front shifting groups even come in triple. In shimano, at least.. What I use

10s, 6703, triple. 7803...

[Dead Man]

Hah.. Never knew 7800 came in triple.

Still though - just don't see that working for CX.

[93legendti]

Sorry, just throwing it out there..

[oliver1850]

And done.

I removed the rivets from a 4600 12-28 cassette and used the 28,23,19, and 15. The 4 yellow spacers are from a Mavic C9 conversion cassette and are .119" thick (.476" (12 mm) total). The 15 is followed by 3 spacers from the 4600 cassette and the 12 cog to hold the lock ring tight. The 7700 RD needed longer limit screws, provided by a Veloce 9 RD. They are just long enough, maybe a half turn from full insertion on both ends. The R700 shifter shifts reasonably well in both directions, with really only a slight clunkiness going into the 28. I think an RD designed for larger cogs such as the 4601 might shift a bit smoother.

I may be able to road test it in the next couple of days.

[Dead Man]

And done.

I removed the rivets from a 4600 12-28 cassette and used the 28,23,19, and 15. The 4 yellow spacers are from a Mavic C9 conversion cassette and are .119" thick (.476" (12 mm) total). The 15 is followed by 3 spacers from the 4600 cassette and the 12 cog to hold the lock ring tight. The 7700 RD needed longer limit screws, provided by a Veloce 9 RD. They are just long enough, maybe a half turn from full insertion on both ends. The R700 shifter shifts reasonably well in both directions, with really only a slight clunkiness going into the 28. I think an RD designed for larger cogs such as the 4601 might shift a bit smoother.

I may be able to road test it in the next couple of days.

Nice! I also intended to mock something up today, but the wife just keeps dumping precelebratory tasks on me. Glad to see it seems to work. SEEMS like it should, in my mind

[Ti Designs]

If you're looking for the most durability and chain wear, start with 1/8" chain and gears. It's not going to have the lateral flex, so you'll need to keep a straight chain line. Given say 3 or 4 gears on an 11-speed spline, if you move the gears instead of the chain and reduce the derailleur down to a chain tensioner, you'll have reduced friction to a minimum with a drive train that will last for thousands of miles.

[oldpotatoe]

If you're looking for the most durability and chain wear, start with 1/8" chain and gears. It's not going to have the lateral flex, so you'll need to keep a straight chain line. Given say 3 or 4 gears on an 11-speed spline, if you move the gears instead of the chain and reduce the derailleur down to a chain tensioner, you'll have reduced friction to a minimum with a drive train that will last for thousands of miles.

I've always thought about building a 3 by 1..triple crank and front der, and one cog in back..with a tensioner..along the same lines as a fixie with the drive train on the left hand side..really!!

[oliver1850]

Had the bike and wheels in the car this morning, then discovered a seatpost issue. Needed to get on the road so didn't take the time to find another 27.0 post, took another bike.

[oliver1850]

Finally got a 14 mile ride on it today, starting right at sundown. It worked great, was nice to avoid multiple clicks when upshifting in rolling country. I couldn't tell that it shifted slower than a more closely matched cogset, but it was perhaps a bit noisier. I could see riding it a lot (as a 2 x 4) around here, but probably won't. I'd rather spread the wear on the cassette over as many cogs as possible.

[josephr]

Sturmey Archer does make a bacon shifter for their wide ratio 3 and 5 speed hubs.

fixed it for ya... :)

[Dead Man]

fixed it for ya... :)

Sturmey archer actually told me not to use their products.. Said they won't hold up to the demands of racing

[Dead Man]

Finally got a 14 mile ride on it today, starting right at sundown. It worked great, was nice to avoid multiple clicks when upshifting in rolling country. I couldn't tell that it shifted slower than a more closely matched cogset, but it was perhaps a bit noisier. I could see riding it a lot (as a 2 x 4) around here, but probably won't. I'd rather spread the wear on the cassette over as many cogs as possible.

Thanks for the report. Realized none of my cassettes will work, all being "road," with the pre mounted hub interface.. So need to pick up a Tiagra cassette to rip up

[559Rando]

Just use the 11s/10s/9s, etc stuff and turn the limit screws in :-)

[Dead Man]

Just use the 11s/10s/9s, etc stuff and turn the limit screws in :-)

Doesn't give the gear range needed to accomplish my goals

[559Rando]

You can assemble your own cassette.

[Dead Man]

Finally got a 14 mile ride on it today, starting right at sundown. It worked great, was nice to avoid multiple clicks when upshifting in rolling country. I couldn't tell that it shifted slower than a more closely matched cogset, but it was perhaps a bit noisier. I could see riding it a lot (as a 2 x 4) around here, but probably won't. I'd rather spread the wear on the cassette over as many cogs as possible.

No issues jumping from 23 to 28? Fast and snappy? That's the only big jump.

Looking through the Tiagra gear options, I'd either need to do exactly what you did - 15, 19, 23, 28 with a 28t cassette, or could keep it at 4 cog jumps by buying a 12-30 also for it's 27. But if the 23 to 28 works fine, that'd be unnecesary. Plus the 28 is more betterer for the "granny" gear than 27 anyway.

Fortunately, the 28 is the least used, and you're generally shifting up onto it as you coast up to the climb anyway, so if any gear jump can be slightly laggy, that's the one.

[oliver1850]

I didn't notice any hesitation shifting from the 23 to the 28.