OT: Classical guitars.

[Marz]

It seems like there's a lot of expertise here for non-bicycle related stuff.

I'm thinking of trying to learn the classical guitar again but this time I want to buy something beautiful, pricey and good.

I'm buying used after getting a quote from a well known Australian luthier who is asking, as he should, AUD$12,500 for a new spruce or cedar instrument with Indian rosewood back and sides. $2000 more for Brazilian rosewood which is protected.

Initially I thought I should get something like that as I'm a grown-up now and his guitars are works of art as most classical guitars are in my view. Now after considering this purchase more carefully, I've decided to be prudent.

I'm looking at a 1966 Masaru Kohno, No.5 for around $3000 but its soundboard has been repaired. I like what players are saying about Kohno's guitars and it's not crazy money. Spanish made instruments can be insane money.

As with my bikes, I love bespoke and a story and obviously something that doesn't get in the way of enjoying my pursuits. I hope to find this satisfaction with the guitar.

Can anyone help with advice?

[cmbicycles]

I don't know the Luthier scene in aus, but in general guitars (unlike say violins whose design peaked at stadavarius) are still evolving with designs and techniques... much like finely crafted bicycles. Lattice bracing comes to mind, and may perhaps be the luthier you first sought out (Smallman comes to mind) but I recall him being well known for lattice bracing on his guitars,. If you can play before buying that's always good with used instruments as some age better than others. Like bespoke bikes, there are a ton of skilled luthiers doing amazing work out there.

Repaired sound boards aren't necessarily a death knoll, especially on a 50 year old instrument, but I'd want to play and compare to others before plunking down any money.

[redir]

I've been building and repairing guitars for 25 years. I've built 10 classical guitars including a flamenco so... My advice based on that experience is, either play the vintage guitar first before buying or make sure they have a really good return policy. I love vintage guitars, I have a 60's Manuel Contreras guitar that still plays and sounds great. But Segovia used to say that he would 'wear out' a guitar in 10-15 years. I never really knew what he meant by that but I'm sure he knew what he was talking about.

Top repair if well done should have none or very limited affect on the original tone of the instrument. Believe it or not one can argue that the cleats used inside the guitar for repair can actually enhance the tone, that has been the case with violins.

I guess my point is you have to use care when buying a vintage guitar and definitely only buy from reputable dealers.

Fortunately for you we are in a sort of guitar making Renaissance and there are a lot of very talented guitar makers out there that can compete with some of those high prices Spanish guitars.

Have a look around at the following sites and you may learn more:

http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com
http://www.anzlf.com/

As for modern designs, I have experimented with lattice bracing and also have built one double top guitar but I have fallen back on the traditional Torres design. Experimentation is fun but it often times is wasted hours. Not that the double top sounds bad but it's just a very different sound from the traditional designs.

[dgauthier]

It seems like there's a lot of expertise here for non-bicycle related stuff.(. . .)

I've been building and repairing guitars for 25 years.(. . .)

I love this forum. I love this forum. I love this forum.

[Dr Luxurious]

Shop around. Take your time.
Play as many as you can find.
Ignore the price and the name.
Don't buy based on what someone else says you "should" have.
Find one that sounds and feels good TO YOU.

If you're gonna have one built then find a neck that you really like and take it to the builder so he can copy the shape.

[11.4]

There are superb luthiers all over the world these days, and as pointed out above, their product is getting better and better. Frankly, I'd also say that about a few violinmakers as well -- the skills that have developed are creating some amazing instruments. Like in frame building, it means you get a lot of newcomers who offer pretty product but not necessarily durable nor necessarily with the best acoustical quality. Check out the forums and websites and learn more about the instruments. For you, anzif.com is probably most pertinent, though I'm not as familiar with the better luthiers in your part of the world. The worldwide site is luthiersforum.com, and you'll quickly get a sense of who is good and what you want. There are also a number of luthier and guitar luthier sites on Facebook. Check out the Guild of American Luthiers (luth.org). It isn't a real guild, but like with frame building, you quickly figure out who is doing quality product.

All these sites also address instrument repair so you can both become more informed and also understand the idiosyncrasies of the various construction designs you may be dealing with. A major issue with repair is the quality of the restorer -- there are lots of nicer older guitars out there that weren't in good shape and have become practice restorations for people doing this casually or just learning the trade. Your problems with the instrument may not show themselves for a while, long after any ability to return the instrument has evaporated.

[Duende]

This store in SF is SUPER reputable and offers high end classical and parlor/concert guitars.

Good place to peep for pricing references if needed

https://www.gspguitar.com

[DarkStar]

I love this forum. I love this forum. I love this forum.
Myself as well. Long time player with more guitars than bikes.

[Marz]

I love this forum. I love this forum. I love this forum.

Me too. Me too. Me too.

[verbs4us]

Very good advice here. Five years ago I did the same thing, and took about a year of trying different instruments in various shop and owned by friends, to figure out what I liked and wanted. It's not about the bracing geometry or the tonewood or finish. It's about what sounds and feel right to you. For example, ladder bracing tends to lead to rapid decay, compared to fan or X-bracing, which encourages a longer sustain. Depends what you want.

One funny experience: I was at Mandolin Brothers once, trying various guitars and the salesman came by, asking how I was doing. "Terrible!" I said. "They all sound GREAT!" "Oh," he said, "everything sounds good in this room. Bring a few to that room over there..."

And he was right. Just walking 12 feet to another room produced an entirely different acoustical experience. Fast forward a few months and I went back to the "magic room" on a rainy day. A bunch of the guitars that previously sounded ethereal now sounded like they were stuffed with cotton gauze. Maybe it was because the strings had another 500 miles on them, or because the humidity ticked up 10 percent, or something else. Life lesson: there is no such thing as the perfect guitar. It's what this guitar sounds like on this day in this place. And that will change.

For some suggestions, maybe ring up Paul Duff (http://www.duffmandolins.com/contact.htm)(I think in Perth). He makes stunning mandolins and could recommend Australian luthiers to consider. Enjoy the ride!

[Marz]

Thanks for everyone's contributions.

Paceline is a one-stop shop.