OT Mercedes, esp, Diesel in general and the Happy Girl

[1happygirl]

Let me start by saying I know nothing about these. I know y'all are very knowledgeable about autos.

Please help prevent me from ruining my life by avoiding a fatal mistake.

I was hit (from behind) no less at 65 mph. Good news is I was going close to the same. Unfortunately, it has tanked the car.

I am sold on a diesel for the miles I drive and service/miles per gal but have googled and discovered some fatal flaws regarding emissions, egrs, nox sensors and such.

I cannot afford a mistake and of the magnitudes I am reading about on the 'Net.
thanks in advance for any info you can provide from making me able to enjoy my life out of a shop and bankruptcy lol

[jds108]

I have both a diesel Grand Cherokee and a diesel Promaster van, both bought this year. Since both are new, they both require urea refills for their exhaust systems. I haven't heard of any diesels that use urea in their exhaust that have any emission issues.

To oversimplify, I'd buy diesel again given the choice.

No specific knowledge on Mercedes as there isn't a dealer anywhere near me. Not sure what specifically you want to know, but perhaps Mercedes owners will be of more assistance.

[1happygirl]

thanks for the response.
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/fatal-flaw-mercedes-benz-sprinters-tom-robertson
reading a lot about a lot of repairs. Notice FedEx pretty much has pulled the Mercedes vans from the fleet. Some people have referenced the reason VW did what they did (which I know little about but feel for the owners)

Not so much Mercedes in general, but otoh, I see all diesels have been suspect.

Specifically looking at diesels with some miles but accordingly, diesel comments say a diesel engine is just new at 100,000 miles.

PS what does the urea refill entail?

Thanks again.

[JasonF]

My wife has an ML (suv) with the Bluetec diesel engine. It has been 100% problem-free for the 3 years and 50k miles we've owned it. She loves the diesel (gets about 6-700 miles per tank) and the thing just pulls. It gets very good reliability ratings from Consumer Reports, who also LOVE the 4-cylinder diesel offered in the E-Class. According to them, you don't give up much performance going with the 4-cylinder motor since it has loads of torque. Plus the range is on the order of 800 miles per tank.

When the VW/Audi scandal broke, Mercedes came out pretty quickly and adamantly stated that they were up to no shenanigans since they use urea to clean diesel emissions.

[jds108]

Urea - buy a 2 or 5 gallon jug at Walmart. There will be a cap that's usually right next to the gas cap and you just pour it in. Both of my vehicles have urea gauges, just like a gas gauge. Typical refill interval is every 10,000 miles so it's not a big deal. Just like motor oil, power steering fluid, radiator fluid, etc., you just check before purchase that what you're buying meets the manufacturer spec, but with urea I think most all companies have the same spec.

I think that most every vehicle that doesn't have the urea system is going to have a lot of emissions. I had a 2006 Ford and a 2002 Chevy diesel pickup and I recall that everything in my garage would eventually have a fine layer of brown soot on it - all from the exhaust. That no longer happens.

I don't know what all of the technologies are that the various manufacturers are using - there may be something other than urea right now that I'm just not aware of.

[JasonF]

PS what does the urea refill entail?

Thanks again.

There's a small urea tank opening by the gas cap (IIRC, I live in NJ where you don't self serve). My wife has the dealer refill the tank when the warning goes off. I don't think it happens very often (maybe once or twice in 3 years) and I'm pretty cheap and I don't remember the cost. In other words, it's not a big issue for us.

[rnhood]

It can be difficult to find qualified mechanics on Mercedes when you travel, since rural areas in particular don't see them often, and do not readily stock parts for them. In addition, when repair services are available they are typically very expensive. Its the reason some higher end RV companies like Pleasure Way and Leisure Way have stopped using the Mercedes Sprinter chassis, and moved to the Ford Transit or the GM chassis. I suspect Fedex is removing the vans for the same reason - repair cost and difficulty finding qualified repair shops in rural areas.

I understand the Mercedes SUV and 4 door sedan with BlueTec are good vehicles. But are the worth the expense in buying one.....I don't think so. But your milage may vary. Unless you are on the highway 90% of the time, in which case a diesel engine probably makes sense, I think a modern gasoline motor is a better option. Or a hybrid. They get decent milage, are easy to have worked on, and are good for the long haul too. My 1998 Sienna has 249K miles and I have not had any problems at all with the engine. It doesn't even burn any oil to speak of. It has been outstanding for my biking activities, and I don't see any imminent problem with it (knock on wood). I might trade it on a new one when I reach 300k miles, and then again I might not. It just a great van.

[shovelhd]

Mercedes diesel cars are outstanding vehicles, but when they break, they cost.

[Cicli]

The Urea is actually DEF or Diesel Exhaust Fluid. Dont store it for too long if you buy a jug. It can go bad. We use about 3-500 gallons a month per shop and even that can go bad is left in the sun for long periods of time.
DEL and the SCR system along with the DPF and DOC are the solution to diesel emissions. Clean diesel is the way things are going to go. Hybrid, not so much.

Good choices guys.

Now, when VW releases the diesel with SCR back to the US there will be some deals on excellent cars so they can get back in front of the consumer.
Cant wait.

[HenryA]

You place a lot of emphasis on cost and economy. So how much do you want to spend?

I would be wary of any high end, highly featured car as a long term driver if I was looking for low-cost of operation and ownership. For me, a long term driver would be a vehicle that I kept for 10 years or more and drove over a couple hundred thousand miles. That is typically a very cheap way to drive if you pick the right car.

I think the nightmare scenario is for you (or me) is to have an eight-year-old car that's otherwise fine that suddenly needs a $3500 repair. If that seems scary to you, spend a lot of time looking at typical repairs of high mileage versions of the cars you like. Of course it's difficult to be a fortuneteller but you can study up on the different cars and see how their maintenance track record holds up.

On the other hand, if you're looking at a two-year-old $50,000 Mercedes, ignore what I wrote while grabbing another in three years.

[froze]

Depending on what country you live in diesel may not be the best option. Here in America diesel cost about 25 cents per gallon more then gasoline plus now the cost of urea to make the diesel burn cleaner and thus the combine cost of both in effect negates any savings you get in fuel economy, in fact in most cases it actually cost more than gasoline to drive. Add on top of that there is more maintenance with a diesel engine and repairs cost more due to the more complex systems used, not to mention the added cost to get a diesel engine option. Add on top of that diesel engines don't have the power that gasoline engines have for performance. Even with pickup trucks the cost to maintain those are very high so again any fuel savings you might get is more than spent back, but if you tow a huge trailer than you might want a diesel.

You can read more about all of this below:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/matthewdepaula/2012/08/27/clean-diesel-cars-and-trucks-that-will-save-you-money/#6d6fe4af51dc

[1happygirl]

You place a lot of emphasis on cost and economy. Snip



I think the nightmare scenario is for you (or me) is to have an eight-year-old car that's otherwise fine that suddenly needs a $3500 repair.



Snip

Stop reading my thoughts!!!
Yes, exactly. Buying a new vehicle for me (even though it's used- its new to me)
And then spending several thousand right away plus STILL not having anything to drive is a no no
Thx for the reply
I'm in love with the vehicle but need to make a grown up decision (can't afford otherwise$)

[1happygirl]

It can be difficult to find qualified mechanics on Mercedes when you travel, since rural areas in particular don't see them often, and do not readily stock parts for them. In addition, when repair services are available they are typically very expensive. Its the reason some higher end RV companies like Pleasure Way and Leisure Way have stopped using the Mercedes Sprinter chassis, and moved to the Ford Transit or the GM chassis. I suspect Fedex is removing the vans for the same reason - repair cost and difficulty finding qualified repair shops in rural areas.



I understand the Mercedes SUV and 4 door sedan with BlueTec are good vehicles. But are the worth the expense in buying one.....I don't think so. But your milage may vary. Unless you are on the highway 90% of the time, in which case a diesel engine probably makes sense, I think a modern gasoline motor is a better option. Or a hybrid. They get decent milage, are easy to have worked on, and are good for the long haul too. My 1998 Sienna has 249K miles and I have not had any problems at all with the engine. It doesn't even burn any oil to speak of. It has been outstanding for my biking activities, and I don't see any imminent problem with it (knock on wood). I might trade it on a new one when I reach 300k miles, and then again I might not. It just a great van.



Thanks for reply speaking sense here . I wondered why seeing so many 105, 000 mile vehicles turned in

[AngryScientist]

if you're in the united states and looking for a car that has the lowest total cost of ownership; that is (initial cost) + (fuel over the lifetime of the car) + (cost of repairs over the lifetime of the car) - (resale value) - you're NOT going to do any better than a japanese econobox.

if you want a luxury car, that's great, if you want a good handling car, that's something else, but make no mistake - a luxury brand german car that happens to burn diesel and be reasonably fuel efficient is not going to come anywhere near a honda fit, for example when it comes down to the total cost of ownership. nowhere even close.

[1happygirl]

Mercedes diesel cars are outstanding vehicles, but when they break, they cost.



Insert sad emoticon
Yes I guess so. Back to the drawing board I suppose
I drove it and loved it. Perfectly what I was looking for but I can't afford to spend $$$ and then put more money into it.
Sigh

[Ralph]

A diesel engine vehicle is still a vehicle. Maybe the engine with urea injection is excellent, but it still has all the other things any car has that can go wrong. Sensors for everything, brakes, tires, fuel pumps, filters, AC compressor, electronics for braking and all the safety features, dash stuff, etc....all the engine accessories to go wrong. I really like MB automobiles....but if looking for comfortable low cost driving, would not pick one.

[1happygirl]

The Urea is actually DEF or Diesel Exhaust Fluid. Dont store it for too long if you buy a jug. It can go bad. .



Ahhhh
Def .
Thx
Yes, exactly the part(s) that they said go bad, emphasis on the E part.
The exhaust system and its components
I have learned a lot though looking.
Unfortunately, I still need a car and want one
that is very similar to the one I drove.
Back to the test drive


Ps Cicli how do u avoid buying at a rural wal mart that's not ineffective? That's good info. I have a feeling that may be part of it too.
My nightmare doing what's required and still malfunctions. Get an old jug at wal mart?
I guess what you guys are saying is too complicated, too many variables.

[rodcad]

Hard to beat a Camry if you want overall cheap to own. Even the 4 bangers will easily hit 100mph without breaking a sweat. Change the oil, tires and brakes and you're done.

[ripvanrando]

Anybody own a Mercedes that broke and cost them money?

Buying used Daimler Benz autos has saved me many tens of thousands of dollars over the decades. I did have one repair....cost me a grand. All machines do break and I run mine well north of 200,000 miles.

[regularguy412]

Hard to beat a Camry if you want overall cheap to own. Even the 4 bangers will easily hit 100mph without breaking a sweat. Change the oil, tires and brakes and you're done.

+1 on this. Since 1995 I've owned only Toyotas.

The main thing to 'watch' on any auto tranny Toy is mileage between transmission fluid changes. The transmissions are great but that's really about the only thing one could identify as a weak point in Toyotas (imo). I've run two different ones up into the high 190,000 miles area and my daughter drove one up to 167,000 as her 'first' car so you know how much of a beating those take.

Do the 'normal' maintenance, but also change the auto tran fluid at ~80,000 mile intervals.

I purchased hers used for $9,000. Camry with 45,000 miles on it. That was 2008 and it was a 1999 model. My current Solara has 147,000 on it and just replaced the starter this year.

My little 4-banger still gets 34 mpg highway and average 26.5 in town/out of town mpg.

OK enough of the rah rah.

Just my .02.

Mike in AR:beer:

[1happygirl]

if you're in the united states you're NOT going to do any better than a japanese econobox.



if you want a luxury car, that's great, if you want a good handling car, that's something else, but make no mistake - a luxury brand german car that happens to burn diesel and be reasonably fuel efficient is not going to come anywhere near a honda fit, for example when it comes down to the total cost of ownership. nowhere even close.

Yes , unfortunately I believe you are right. I wasn't clear but looking at large-er vehicles not just cars per say. Yes this may be what happens as the Scientific voice of reason
Had my heart set on something was perfect but sounds like a potential gamble with the def etc etc

Sorry the Deutschland let me down . As the article I read or something said, they had the market sewed up and fumbled (re Fedex etc)
Seeing transits around but very new. Always a bad sign. Got me a loaner 2017 Pacifica. 517 miles brand new mode year. Stranded me last week in middle of street. Electronic 9 speed transmission went out.
Sigh
Apparently I have bad car mojo at present. Need to not , as I said, fumble a vehicle purchase.
The Pacifica was just a trial run

Ps rip van glad you've (at least according to internet) been an outlier but then ppl who are happy don't write as many articles

[HenryA]

Where do you live? If you're in or near a big city it may not matter but if not it sure is nice to have a choice of multiple places to have your vehicle repaired. Buy something that has a lot of local shops supporting it.

My wife has a Subaru Outback - she loves it. Its her second one and she will probably buy a third one someday. Both were and have been cheap to maintain and operate.

First one was totaled in a hailstorm - it looked like hell but still drove just fine. Gave it to oldest son, and he eventually killed it just this side of 300,000 miles. A super cautious and meticulous owner might still be driving it.

[Gsinill]

I do second Angry's opinion even though I love (and have) German cars.
Getting most reliably from A to B, spending the least amount of money, you can't beat the Japans and Koreans.

If you are still interested in an MB, you might want to check out the pre BlueTec (read pre Urea tank) Mercedes E320 CDI.
I think the BlueTec replaced the regular CDI in 2006.
Apparently gets around 38mpg (highway) and has the older and bullet proof inline 6 engine.
Will be my next Diesel after my current '86 300SDL.

[Gsinill]

Anybody own a Mercedes that broke and cost them money?

Buying used Daimler Benz autos has saved me many tens of thousands of dollars over the decades. I did have one repair....cost me a grand. All machines do break and I run mine well north of 200,000 miles.

Same here, bought my '86 300SDL in 2007 for $4K, put another 50,000 miles on it; I could probably get $3,500 if I sold it today.
With the exception of brake rotors and pads, not a single repair.

Before that: '84 300SD with 450,000 miles on the clock when I bought it. Donated it after 4 years because the turbo went out.
Big mistake, should just have replaced the turbo.
Other than that, no repairs either...

But to be honest MB today is not what it was 20 years ago and those older diesels don't come close to the mileage of today's turbo diesels.

[biker72]

Reliability and economy for my money??? Honda, Toyota, Subaru or possibly some models of Kia.

I've never had any interest in diesel engines.

[oldpotatoe]

Let me start by saying I know nothing about these. I know y'all are very knowledgeable about autos.

Please help prevent me from ruining my life by avoiding a fatal mistake.

I was hit (from behind) no less at 65 mph. Good news is I was going close to the same. Unfortunately, it has tanked the car.

I am sold on a diesel for the miles I drive and service/miles per gal but have googled and discovered some fatal flaws regarding emissions, egrs, nox sensors and such.

I cannot afford a mistake and of the magnitudes I am reading about on the 'Net.
thanks in advance for any info you can provide from making me able to enjoy my life out of a shop and bankruptcy lol

Look for a modified, 2015/16 Jetta/Golf Sport Wagon TDI..My dealer has 15 on his lot, all new..and not very expensive.

[1happygirl]

Awww thanks folks.

I guess MB is out for now (or the 2013 I test drove at least)
for the ideas y'all bring out.

I wondered why a still awesome great vehicle was turned in.
They have a 2006 but think it's spoken for.

In my excitement/disappointment I have been utilizing the term car
interchangeably. I'm actually looking at large trucks/vans/SUV at least.

I seem to have bad car karma but always intend to keep the car/vehicle as
a long-term driver as a lot of y'all do here. Diesel was offering me
Long service intervals and high gas mileage equivalent with much smaller
vehicles was my rational. Long -time ago someone posted a study on the break even years for diesel for mpg. Just from memory I think it was 10 yrs?
Excellent as was a question/justification for it in my mind. The vehicle was perfect after driving it however the article I read that I posted was /is not somehhing $$$$$$ I can and want to entertain. Glad I asked.Thanks!

[oldpotatoe]

Awww thanks folks.

I guess MB is out for now (or the 2013 I test drove at least)
for the ideas y'all bring out.

I wondered why a still awesome great vehicle was turned in.
They have a 2006 but think it's spoken for.

In my excitement/disappointment I have been utilizing the term car
interchangeably. I'm actually looking at large trucks/vans/SUV at least.

I seem to have bad car karma but always intend to keep the car/vehicle as
a long-term driver as a lot of y'all do here. Diesel was offering me
Long service intervals and high gas mileage equivalent with much smaller
vehicles was my rational. Long -time ago someone posted a study on the break even years for diesel for mpg. Just from memory I think it was 10 yrs?
Excellent as was a question/justification for it in my mind. The vehicle was perfect after driving it however the article I read that I posted was /is not somehhing $$$$$$ I can and want to entertain. Glad I asked.Thanks!

What's your budget?

http://www.mbvans.com/sprinter/shopping-tools/build-and-equip#

[soulspinner]

Mercedes diesel cars are outstanding vehicles, but when they break, they cost.

This. If you buy a used one out of warranty. Call the nearest dealer and ask about typical maintenance and repair costs. I work at a Volvo store and the costs for a Benz of any kind over time can be prohibitive even if you have a mechanic you trust to work on it. There are many cars with great safety records that don't use a lot of fuel and are very safe passively. Not a good time for diesel resale at local auctions due to the VW debacle so choose wisely.

[Black Dog]

I buy vehicles with the intent to keep them for the duration. Have had 2 diesel VW's (still have one) and one had over 350,000km when sold and ran like a champ and the second has about the same and runs flawlessly. They were not expensive to maintain etc. Cost of ownership was low. As for a larger vehicle look at the dodge ram with the eco diesel. Fuel consumption is outstanding, better than any SUV and most sedans. Have three friends with them and they love them. The extra cost of the engine (like all diesels) requires 10 of thousands of km's in order to save enough in fuel to recoup the cost of the engine. After that you are saving and have an engine that should last for a very long time. If you stay on top of maintenance and keep rust away diesel vehicles can last a very very long time. The diesel loaner I get from my VW wrench has over 750,000km on it and it is not babied.

[commonguy001]

Ahhhh
Def .
Thx
Yes, exactly the part(s) that they said go bad, emphasis on the E part.
The exhaust system and its components



Ps Cicli how do u avoid buying at a rural wal mart that's not ineffective? That's good info. I have a feeling that may be part of it too.
My nightmare doing what's required and still malfunctions. Get an old jug at wal mart?

If you do go diesel don't buy your Def at Walmart if you have an option to pump it at truck stops. Truck stops have it at the pump and it's not only fresh but costs less. Cars also don't use a ton of Def so it's not like you need to fill it with every filll up. If you have a Pilot truck stop near you I'd use their pumps for your Def.

[Mikej]

Not sure if this matters, but what does an MB cost to insure? I do also have to include what others have said - it will still need tires brakes wiper blades etc. mb parts also seem to be expensive and labor is also a bit more since luxury cars have seemingly more intricate component systems- I would echo the Toyota Honda Subaru advice. We recently purchased an 2016 outback and it's really nice- I've been a Honda guy all of my life, I'm very familiar with thier engines so I generally perform all non-suspension work😉

[shovelhd]

Anybody own a Mercedes that broke and cost them money?

Buying used Daimler Benz autos has saved me many tens of thousands of dollars over the decades. I did have one repair....cost me a grand. All machines do break and I run mine well north of 200,000 miles.

Modern Benzes or older, non-EPA ones? Older diesel Benzes last forever, because they're not burdened with emission controls.

[shovelhd]

Look for a modified, 2015/16 Jetta/Golf Sport Wagon TDI..My dealer has 15 on his lot, all new..and not very expensive.

She won't be able to buy one until at least January when the fix is approved.

[oldpotatoe]

She won't be able to buy one until at least January when the fix is approved.

That's only 45 days....;)

[shovelhd]

If you are looking for a full sized SUV, take a look at the Toyota Highlander Hybrid. Three row seating, great gas mileage for a car that size. My wife bought hers new and had 185,000 trouble free miles until the engine started using oil. They hold their value well.

[carpediemracing]

Some thoughts.

I'm not really up on car stuff other than I can do minor repairs on my own and major ones with help.

What I did was try to use someone else's findings on what it takes to keep a car on the road, after regular maintenance (oil changes, filters, timing belts, whatever) and wear/tear (brakes/tires/etc). A good way to do this is to ask what an extended warranty would cost. CarMax is pretty easy - you can ask about extended warranties on many different kinds of cars with similar miles/year and get numbers right away. Pick an easy deductible, like $100, and get the longest warranty (5 years / 150k). Easy to compare at that point.

I don't remember Mercedes info specifically although I did call on one (C350?). But my finding is that a warranty on a VW or BMW is about 2-3x the same (or longer) warranty on a Mazda, Honda, Hyundai, Lexus. Generally speaking 5 years, 150k on odometer, $5-6k for VW/BMW, about $1800-2200 for the others. With VW they wouldn't go to 150k, only 125k, and with the Lexus it was old so only 3 years. I figure those companies spend way more time researching what people are spending to keep cars on the road. Remember, this is after maintenance and wear/tear, which are not covered. Only unexpected/unscheduled failures.

I wonder if production anomalies (I had a Honda that I sold at 286k miles and it was running fine, original head gasket/engine) are the cars that got the right combination of tolerances/etc and they're going to last longer than a sister car that had the wrong combination of tolerances, aka "a lemon".

[soulspinner]

Modern Benzes or older, non-EPA ones? Older diesel Benzes last forever, because they're not burdened with emission controls.

Or the plethora of electronics that go in all cars eventually.

[Climb01742]

I'm not necessarily advocating for the OP to buy a Benz, but I've owned 5 or 6 MB diesels of late-70s to mid-80s vintages. All were bought with 150,000 miles at least on them, and a two with 300,000+. They were bulletproof. I put less money into them all, in repairs, than I did into two far more recent BMWs. I grant you, that's just my small sample size, but I think MBs -- in particular older ones, say pre-1992 -- are super solid cars.

[1happygirl]

What's your budget?

http://www.mbvans.com/sprinter/shopping-tools/build-and-equip#

Ahh yes. Exactly. Perfect OP!!! Im in love, But this below scares me and esp the comments below the bottom article. The comments are frightening for me as we talked about can't afford a $5,000 repair right after I roll off the lot. I trust y'alls opinion over the nameless faceless peeps on the net. THANK EVERYONE SO MUCH. I have learned here and will follow.
I called several MB dealers and talked to service/sales. The mentioned this DEF thing as one thing that goes. After we got over what do I need to look for and they said they are great there's no one thing yada yada the dealers got real as I explained I don't have the money to mess up and want this/need transport. Def/emissions had to be put on in the States for emmisons? but maybe why no other countries have as many probs with diesel as US.

The reports make it seem frightening to me as I was under the impression diesel has purportedly more reliability and longevity.
Specifically:

The Fatal Flaw of Mercedes Benz Sprinters
Apr 24, 2015
This article is my personal opinion, based upon my experiences with Mercedes Benz Sprinter vans. Please understand that these vehicles are used in a commercial trucking application with annual average mileages exceeding 100,000 miles, and that I am not an automotive or diesel expert. The majority, but not all of the problems occurring with these vehicles occurred after the initial 100,000 miles. It is my belief that the problems I have experienced, will occur with a vast majority of every Sprinter as the mileage of each vehicle approaches 120,000 miles. Only 3 vehicles have reached 150,000 miles without serious charges for maintenance.to the EGR-DEF- exhaust system.

Over the past 7 years I have owned a total of 47 Sprinters. I own an expedited trucking company and keep detailed maintenance and repair records on every vehicle. These records are available to Mercedes Benz if desired. This article is being written to warn potential buyers of this vehicle of the fatal flaw hidden in each of these vehicles.

Prior to 2008, when the United States Government mandated diesel exhaust regulations, the Sprinter, manufactured by Mercedes Benz and sold as a Dodge was a real workhorse. These vehicles performed admirably, providing us with lifetime expected mileages of 500,000 and more. The cost for maintaining these vehicles while slightly higher than their American made counterparts made up for these differences with their reliability and long term service.

Since 2008 Mercedes Benz developed an extremely complex and expensive exhaust system to comply with our government regulations. Prior to entering the exhaust system the fumes from the engine pass through an EGR valve. The exhaust system is comprised of a CDI (control unit) which monitors and actuates the sensors and valves in the exhaust system; a DEF pump. A DEF tank, a DEF temp sensor, a DEF level sensor and an SCR control unit with actuators and sensors. These items a located under the hood. The actual exhaust system has three major components; the OXI-Cat and DPF section and two SCR Cat sections. The OXI-Cat section has an oxygen sensor an exhaust temperature sensor and a backpressure sensor. There is a N0x sensor and a dosing valve between the OXI-Cat section and the first SCR Cat section. In the first SCR Cat section there is another temperature sensor, and the last SCR section has one more N0x sensor. Once the exhausted fumes and particles have passed through this area they are passed through a particulate filter.

If any of these parts fails prepare to pay as little as $600 for a N0x sensor (there are two), or approximately $800-$1000 for an EGR valve, to a couple of thousand for a SCR catalytic converter (there are two) or a particulate filter (thankfully only one).

In addition to the complexity of the system, you now must deal with each dealership and their pricing for parts and services. Sprinters are serviced by Mercedes Benz dealerships across the country. An oil change can cost as little as $170 at one dealership to as much as $400 by many others. The repairs to your exhaust system can vary almost as much as their prices to perform a simple oil change.

Further complicating the problems with this vehicle is the lack of reliability to the repairs made by each dealership. We have had numerous “repairs” performed at various dealerships at costs of $2000, only to have the engine light appear again within a few hundred miles. Then when taken to another dealership the “problem” is diagnosed as another sensor or valve and once again we have been charged up to $2000. Mercedes Benz diagnoses of the check engine light are unreliable and many times we have been charged for repairs that do not resolve the problem.

If the system becomes completely clogged and the entire system needs replacement, prepare to pay approximately $6000. You read that correctly…$6000.

Mercedes Benz Sprinter fatal flaw is directly related to the components involved with their exhaust system. The cost in maintaining and repairing these vehicles is a staggering average of .10 cents per mile. Compare that figure to less than two cents a mile for that of their American counterparts made by Dodge Ram’s ProMaster and Ford’s Transit.

Another contributing factor to Mercedes Sprinter ownership woes, is that Mercedes Benz dealership’s treat the maintenance and repairs of a “commercial vehicle” no differently than their luxury vehicles. Mercedes Benz needs develop a dramatically less expensive exhaust system, or replace the diesel engine with an efficient 6 cylinder gas engine if they plan to continue to sell these vehicles as commercial trucks and compete effectively against Ford and Dodge.

If you plan to use your Sprinter as a true commercial vehicle, and plan to drive more than 50,000 miles a year, it would serve you well to look at the Ford Transit or Ram ProMaster. Consider nothing more than the differences in the costs of oil changes…Ford or Ram $30- $40…Mercedes Sprinter $170-$400. Now look at the cost for the first 100,000 miles $300-$400 for the others vs $1700-$4000 for the Sprinter. The differences in other routine maintenance items are relatively consistent with the differences seen for oil changes.

When you couple the excessive charges for routine maintenance with the astronomical charges for repairs to the items associated with the EGR-DEF- Exhaust System, the cost of ownership is an expense that can greatly affect your bottom line. Our expenses for a fleet of 28 Sprinter vans (2012’s & 2013’s) in 2014 was a staggering $270,000! That’s nearly $10,000 per van per year in maintenance and repairs. Can your business afford such an expense? I can assure you that mine cannot. With the odds at 6.4% of a Sprinter reaching 150,000 miles without very costly repairs, we are replacing these vehicles as quickly as we can get the ProMasters and Transits delivered.

While I am informed by my local dealership in Louisville that their sales have never been higher for the first quarter of previous years, it is my belief that when the truth of the fatal flaw is known, their sales will plummet.

Wake up Mercedes Benz! If you’re going to compete in the commercial truck market in the United States, lower your parts and service rates and give us a gas engine without the present diesel exhaust system- The fatal flaw of the Mercedes Benz Sprinter.

If it truly is this bad, as mentioned. Why (not unlike VW, no class action)?

[1happygirl]

This. If you buy a used one out of warranty. Call the nearest dealer and ask about typical maintenance and repair costs. I work at a Volvo store and the costs for a Benz of any kind over time can be prohibitive even if you have a mechanic you trust to work on it. There are many cars with great safety records that don't use a lot of fuel and are very safe passively. Not a good time for diesel resale at local auctions due to the VW debacle so choose wisely.

yeah. sad. it is postulated that the reason they put the ? stuff on was to avoid all the DEF probs MB has had with their EGR valves, emission system issues etc.

[1happygirl]

If you do go diesel don't buy your Def at Walmart if you have an option to pump it at truck stops. Truck stops have it at the pump and it's not only fresh but costs less. Cars also don't use a ton of Def so it's not like you need to fill it with every filll up. If you have a Pilot truck stop near you I'd use their pumps for your Def.

Interesting. THANKS!!! fascinating. As I said all this is new to me.

[1happygirl]

Not sure if this matters, but what does an MB cost to insure? I do also have to include what others have said - it will still need tires brakes wiper blades etc. mb parts also seem to be expensive and labor is also a bit more since luxury cars have seemingly more intricate component systems- I would echo the Toyota Honda Subaru advice. We recently purchased an 2016 outback and it's really nice- I've been a Honda guy all of my life, I'm very familiar with thier engines so I generally perform all non-suspension work😉

Good point about ins. Called and for the vehicle supposedly no more than a "regular" car but it usually takes me about 3-5 calls to really get someone that gives accurate info.

PS the MB extended warranty IS more expensive than on a used Honda/toyota etc at $4,200.

[1happygirl]

Modern Benzes or older, non-EPA ones? Older diesel Benzes last forever, because they're not burdened with emission controls.

Exactly the reason that some think VW put the equipment on to bypass.

I test drove the 2013 MB not the 2006 without def. that is spoken for. I was in love but wonder if the older one drives the same? I guess after y'alls opinions it is a moot point. Sorry for all the problems with the vehicles. And I really need to change course quickly as I have personally spent $$$ (Read upwards of $$$$$ on rental vehicles )
The problem is any competing vehicles that I have driven, to me, have not matched the handling, comfort, and practicality/function (minus cost of repairs etc) for my needs.

[rwsaunders]

http://www.edmunds.com/mercedes-benz/e-class/2013/diesel/cost-to-own/

TCO (true cost of ownership) is a good way of applying research to judge if a particular used or new vehicle makes sense for you, as it's hard to place a value on your emotional attraction. Ask me how I know.

[1happygirl]

http://www.edmunds.com/mercedes-benz/e-class/2013/diesel/cost-to-own/

TCO (true cost of ownership) is a good way of applying research to judge if a particular used or new vehicle makes sense for you, as it's hard to place a value on your emotional attraction. Ask me how I know.
very cool link
Very disheartening to me.

[rnhood]

http://www.edmunds.com/mercedes-benz/e-class/2013/diesel/cost-to-own/

TCO (true cost of ownership) is a good way of applying research to judge if a particular used or new vehicle makes sense for you, as it's hard to place a value on your emotional attraction. Ask me how I know.

Good link and thanks. Yes, in the end we have to decide how much its worth to be fashionable. Its really not much different with bikes and cycling goods....and about everything else in life that is a "want", and not a need.

[Gummee]

Anybody own a Mercedes that broke and cost them money?

Buying used Daimler Benz autos has saved me many tens of thousands of dollars over the decades. I did have one repair....cost me a grand. All machines do break and I run mine well north of 200,000 miles.

You're talking to one. ...but in the car's defense, it had sat for 3 years after Dad died before I got to it.

Alternator went out. Dealer: $625 Got it rebuilt it by a local guy for right at $220

Then the trans went south. THAT was going to be $3000 to fix a $2000 car.

I'm driving an X3 at the moment. Starter went out on that recently. WHOLEsale on that part was $200. They ain't called 'Bring More Wallet' for nuthin.

Dad always used to say 'anyone can afford to buy a (Mercedes/BMW/Audi), but not everyone can afford to maintain one. They're great cars. Drive nicely. Lots of road feel. Get pretty good mileage. etc etc etc

Next race vehicle is going to be a Transit. After today's race in 40+ mph gusts of wind and mid-40s temps. I want to be able to stand up, inside the vehicle out of the weather, and change clothing. I'm debating between the regular V6 or the Ecoboost

M

[1happygirl]

You're talking to one. ...but in the car's defense, it had sat for 3 years after Dad died before I got to it.



Alternator went out. Dealer: $625 Got it rebuilt it by a local guy for right at $220



Then the trans went south. THAT was going to be $3000 to fix a $2000 car.



I'm driving an X3 at the moment. Starter went out on that recently. WHOLEsale on that part was $200. They ain't called 'Bring More Wallet' for nuthin.
Snipped



Next race vehicle is going to be a Transit. After today's race in 40+ mph gusts of wind and mid-40s temps. I want to be able to stand up, inside the vehicle out of the weather, and change clothing. I'm debating between the regular V6 or the Ecoboost



M


Lol nice Gummee !!!!!!I'll use some of the abbreviations. BMW:-)
Just curious, no consideration of diesel engine?
Have you driven the Transit, yet?

[OtayBW]

1happygirl - I think you should keep your Forum tag line in mind when you get ready to purchase something. You can never be sure you'll make the 'right' decision. Balance the options, and then get what makes you happy! Love and kisses. OTBW. :cool:

[ceolwulf]

Mazda CX-5 will be available with a diesel next year. That should be a very low TCO option. And it's widely regarded the best to drive among small crossovers.

I'd buy a hybrid rather than a diesel every time though.

[HenryA]

Buy the newest, nicest, bestest minivan you can find for your price.
The one that has a good service record.

Seriously.

[froze]

Anybody own a Mercedes that broke and cost them money?

Buying used Daimler Benz autos has saved me many tens of thousands of dollars over the decades. I did have one repair....cost me a grand. All machines do break and I run mine well north of 200,000 miles.

MBZ have only average repair records; see these sites:

http://www.reliabilityindex.com/manufacturer
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/honda-tops-rankings-for-best-repair-record-among-all-auto-makers/
http://www.newsday.com/classifieds/cars/consumer-reports-best-and-worst-car-brands-in-2015-include-lexus-mazda-and-toyota-1.10387053
http://www.bankrate.com/finance/auto/most-reliable-car-companies-1.aspx
https://www.carmd.com/wp/vehicle-health-index-introduction/2015-carmd-manufacturer-vehicle-rankings/

while I'm not sure how those sites come up with the information as they do, but on none of those is MBZ listed in the top 10. In addition to that German parts cost more money than Japanese or American parts. And yes, I have known many people who at one time owned MBZ and most will never buy another, and some people are just die hard fans of whatever car suits them regardless of reliability. MBZ use to be really well made cars back before the 90's but since then they have deteriorated a lot.

[froze]

This. If you buy a used one out of warranty. Call the nearest dealer and ask about typical maintenance and repair costs. I work at a Volvo store and the costs for a Benz of any kind over time can be prohibitive even if you have a mechanic you trust to work on it. There are many cars with great safety records that don't use a lot of fuel and are very safe passively. Not a good time for diesel resale at local auctions due to the VW debacle so choose wisely.

Interesting you said that, I know a mechanic who bought a BMW Z4 and even he said he can't afford the parts to fix stuff and he gets a wholesale discount on parts!

[jds108]

Next race vehicle is going to be a Transit.

M

You might want to compare interior ceiling heights in the Transit and Promaster (PM) - that was a big reason for me to get the PM. It's fwd so the cargo floor is lower than the Transit with its rwd and thus a stand-up inside spec'd vehicle has a lower roof height

[paredown]

I'm not sure how handy you are, or if you want to do some of your own maintenance, but that is the way that a lot of folks of modest means keep cars like Merc diesels on the road...

There is a little less DIY info on the web for Mercs (I think the owners skew to non-DIY'ers), but these days, you can find good information on almost any car problem online.

The second way to save is to find a trustworthy independent, and get the service work done there. I know a good Merc shop that is local; we have one of the best VW independents (Edge Motors) 20 mins away, and I have a local garage that I would trust with our Volvo (one of the brothers rebuilds them in his spare time). Cost for repairs etc will be substantially cheaper than dealer pricing.

The third way is to order your simple parts online--just like the bike world, Cheaper prices, good shipping and if you are careful you can pick up OEM/OEM original supplier parts a heck of a lot cheaper than what the dealer will charge you.

Simple stuff, like cabin air filters, engine air filters, burned out bulbs can all be done DIY--look for the Youtube video, order the part (carefully) and have at it.

Out of necessity, I have been doing all of our car repairs since the "Great Recession"--and I have had guys on the internet talk me through some pretty complicated repairs--first timing belt change, first major suspension rebuild--but these are the kind of repairs that you have to do with old cars.

My personal feeling--buy the car that you love (assuming that you can afford the basic payment, insurance and gas), with Mercs you could buy the Prepaid Maintenance plan (or try to negotiate this as included in the price) and you would have 30,000 miles where you should not be out of pocket for anything. Aside from major design failures or actual lemons (which are probably just 'luck of the draw') most new cars are pretty good--light years ahead of the crap that we were buying back in the day.

Those TCO numbers seem wildly high to me...

[adrien]

New to the party.

I have a Mercedes Benz 2013 E350 wagon (yes!) 4Matic. It's a gasoline direct injection v6 that has a wee bit more than 300hp. It is by far the best vehicle I have ever owned, and we recently bought a warrantee through year 8 and 100k miles. And, in all fairness, I don't drive much. It currently has 49k miles.

I will say it is a superlative car. It's plenty fast (0-60 in about 6 seconds), amazing in the snow, and plenty roomy for 5 adults. It is also the most relaxing car to drive, and I will happily drive it for 10 hours at a a time. We got several driver aide thingies, including radar-based cruise which allows you to drive everywhere on cruise without fear of hitting the guy in front of you. Consistent 22 city and 30 highway. And, since this is a bike site, I can put my bikes in the trunk without wheels, or in the back with the seat down with the wheels on. My bikes are big -- 59.5 true TT.

In the time we have owned it, it has had exactly one warrantee "repair", which was a software flash. ITs oil changes are expensive, albeit mostly because it has a huge oil reservoir, and silly things at the dealer cost more than they should. You can fix a lot of that by treating them decently and like an LBS, rather than by being entitled and needy. It really works to be kind. But this is typically not a car owned by car people; as an example, there's always a long line up at the dealership when the time changes, because people drive them in to have them change the clock. :rolleyes:

It was, when I bought it, by far the most I'd ever spent on a car. Before this, we had an Audi we kept 10 years and sold for 20% of its purchase price. This, if anything, is holding up better. There is no question they are expensive things. They are also extraordinary. I run company and take calls from the car all the time. People don't believe I'm in a car.

It's also a very rare car, because people in the USA seem to thing there's a problem with being seen in a wagon. I'd buy another in a second, especially if they ever bring the diesel wagon here (which would be a market of about 5 :confused:).

No question this is an expensive and complex vehicle. But the notion that they are unreliable is a bit off. Keep in mind that like many brands, different models are built in different places and to different specs. MB E series are still German and their core product line. Many of the SUVs are built specifically for certain markets.

[froze]

^^ At only 49,000 miles my god I would hope you wouldn't have any issues, heck a Fiat will last that long without issues!

[Ralph]

I operate on the assumption that if you are asking about the cost of owning a used Mercedes, you can't afford it. It also depends on what you will do with it. Garage queen for when you want something nice to drive.....or commuter or work vehicle?

[froze]

A lot of these responses are so off the OP's question they are truly ridiculas and not even remotely helpful to the OP. Reread the very first post and any other post that HE and only HE wrote, and gear your responses to reflect his needs.

[Ken Robb]

You're talking to one. ...but in the car's defense, it had sat for 3 years after Dad died before I got to it.

Alternator went out. Dealer: $625 Got it rebuilt it by a local guy for right at $220

Then the trans went south. THAT was going to be $3000 to fix a $2000 car.

I'm driving an X3 at the moment. Starter went out on that recently. WHOLEsale on that part was $200. They ain't called 'Bring More Wallet' for nuthin.

Dad always used to say 'anyone can afford to buy a (Mercedes/BMW/Audi), but not everyone can afford to maintain one. They're great cars. Drive nicely. Lots of road feel. Get pretty good mileage. etc etc etc

Next race vehicle is going to be a Transit. After today's race in 40+ mph gusts of wind and mid-40s temps. I want to be able to stand up, inside the vehicle out of the weather, and change clothing. I'm debating between the regular V6 or the Ecoboost

M

I get the standing up comment but driving such a tall, boxy vehicle in 40mph winds may not be fun.

[Ken Robb]

I wrote a sarcastic response pointing out the "1HappyGirl" probably wasn't a "He" and other errors. If we were in person and having a drink we might have had a laugh but long distance, on-line it sounded insulting. Sorry.

[froze]

I get the standing up comment but driving such a tall, boxy vehicle in 40mph winds may not be fun.

I have a friend who has one of those Transits here in NE Indiana and he's driven it a lots of and claims it's no problem, he said the only time he felt nervous was when a wind gust of 60 mph were reported and a couple of those high speed ones hit his van, but he said the vehicle didn't feel as bad in those and lessor winds then the old Econoline he had. By the way, he has that van because he restores and shows Penny Farthings, which I refuse to try to ride one!

[weisan]

Please help prevent me from ruining my life by avoiding a fatal mistake.
....
thanks in advance for any info you can provide from making me able to enjoy my life out of a shop and bankruptcy lol

Happy pal, I know nuthin' about the subject matter you are asking but you sounded pretty dire there...I hope everything works out for you and you stay "happy". :D

:hello:

[ripvanrando]

Modern Benzes or older, non-EPA ones? Older diesel Benzes last forever, because they're not burdened with emission controls.

I would not buy any modern diesel car due the environmental regulations burdening the exhaust designs. The marginal reduction in fuel costs do not outweigh the exhaust system complexity and likely repair costs if the intent is longer term ownership of say beyond 100,000 miles. Diesel costs more than gas plus the added urea costs. A deleted 6.7 Powerstroke? Maybe.

My latest one is 2006 S500 with almost 200K on the clock with one repair, a pulley. Fast and comfortable. Is it modern? It has NAV, Phone, stability control, and a host of gadgets. We have had four Toyota and lexus vehicles over the years. Two required new A/C compressors. Timing belt changes every 90,000 miles cost an arm and a leg ($1200+ with water pump and pulleys). Brakes don't last long and warp frequently while the stuts wear out quickly too. The Toyota products have been no more durable and are a lot less comfortable.

I am considering another vehicle now and it might not be a Mercedes but it certainly won't be a diesel car. Too much financial downside risk.

[malcolm]

I did not read the whole thread and suspect this has been mentioned at least once, but if you are opting for diesel for overall cost savings I've never seen the math add up. When you look at the premium for the diesel buy in for most vehicles, buying urea and the cost of diesel in most places in the usa ( near or more than the cost of premium unleaded) it just doesn't save money until you are a decade or two in or multiple hundreds of thousands of miles.

After having said that I like diesels and have owned a couple. I like longer between gas stops even if it costs more and the torque makes them enjoyable to drive. Ultimately it's a car do what makes you happy. Very few cars are purchased strictly on the numbers.

[Ken Robb]

Some of diesels' reputation for longevity stems from the legendary durability of Mercedes cars from the 1970s and 1980s. Their engines were very under- stressed producing much less power than gasoline engines of similar size. If I remember correctly 1977 240D had 67 HP and 300D had 85 HP +/-. These engines had no emission controls and so, unlike gasoline engines of the time, could be tuned for maximum economy and durability. They were VERY popular for use as taxis in Germany.

GM wanted to cash in on the resulting demand for diesel cars and modified one of their 350ci gasoline engines for use as a diesel. Cadillac sold quite a few cars with these diesels with almost disastrous results. The lighter engine blocks and other components that were adequate in gasoline engines failed rather quickly under the more violent explosions caused by diesel combustion.

My take-away is that diesels are not ALWAYS more durable than gasoline engines. In the ensuing years I think the durability gap between diesel and gas engines has narrowed considerably. Gas engines have become more durable as means of controlling their emissions have gotten more sophisticated and diesels aren't as bullet-proof/long-lived as they were now that they are also required to control emissions and buyers are demanding more acceleration from them.

[Climb01742]

Some of diesels' reputation for longevity stems from the legendary durability of Mercedes cars from the 1970s and 1980s. Their engines were very under- stressed producing much less power than gasoline engines of similar size. If I remember correctly 1977 240D had 67 HP and 300D had 85 HP +/-.

Ken knows whereof he speaks. I owned both a 240D and 300D. Acceleration was timed with sundials. The 240 in particular justly garnered the nickname: 240Dog. The exception was the long-wheelbase S class diesel version. It was no rocket, for sure, but it cruised beautifully. All these cars in the mid-80s to early-90s could be had for a few thousand bucks with 200k miles. Then drive 50k and resell 'em for basically the same. There was just one requirement for driving them: patience.:D

[Gummee]

I get the standing up comment but driving such a tall, boxy vehicle in 40mph winds may not be fun.

I grew up driving a 73 Dodge van with a Mercedes camper top on it.

We camped all over W EUR in that thing when I was a kid

M