View Full Version : Lance wins 8th Tour de France!
neverraced
07-24-2006, 04:10 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news;_ylt=Ap_bqoCemJK_wMmVQfvMLIp.grcF?slug=ap-tourdefrance&prov=ap&type=lgns
ya' can't make this shet up atmo.
Kirk Pacenti
07-24-2006, 04:14 PM
WOW! His hubris knows no bounds!
Johny
07-24-2006, 04:18 PM
Hail to the King Lance!
BumbleBeeDave
07-24-2006, 04:23 PM
Much as it pains me to admit it, I think Lance is right in this case. To me, Floyd did indeed display the kind of "I'll show YOU!" type of anger and focus that got Lance to the pddium as many times as he did.
Now if only I could get around the fingers-on-a-chalkboard feeling I get every time I have to read Lance again referring to himself in the collective(?) tense . . . ;)
BBD
____________________________________________
Landis well taught by Armstrong on art of winning
By JEROME PUGMIRE, AP Sports Writer
July 24, 2006
2006 Tour de Fr ance winner Floyd Landis of the US waves the US flag as he rides up the Champs-Elysee avenue in Paris following the final staghe of the 93rd Tour de France cycling race between Antony, south of Paris, and Paris, Sunday, July 23, 2006.
AP - Jul 23, 4:47 pm EDT
More Photos
PARIS (AP) -- Riding with Lance Armstrong taught Floyd Landis some key principles he used to win the Tour de France: Forget pain, overcome mishap, crush self doubt, and focus only on your victory.
"I'm glad that a guy who came through our program has won," Armstrong said Sunday. "We can take a small bit of credit for helping develop Floyd."
Landis now proudly owns a yellow jersey similar to the ones Armstrong won the previous seven years.
Landis sealed the most unpredictable race in years on Sunday. Earlier in the week, he seemingly threw away victory, and then regained it within 24 hours with one of the best rides in the race's 103-year history.
"I kept fighting, never stopped believing," Landis said, shortly after he received the yellow jersey on the podium.
ADVERTISEMENT
Armstrong says the U.S. Postal team, now called Discovery Channel, gambled on Landis when he joined from the Mercury team in 2001.
"He had a mountain of debt because they (Mercury) didn't pay him," Armstrong told The Associated Press in an interview from his room at the Crillon hotel in Paris. "We're the one who gave him the opportunity. For us, there's a bit of a moral victory there because you gave a guy a chance to ride for you, to learn from you."
Landis admits he learned well from his time spent at Postal, where he rode under race director Johan Bruyneel.
"It was an experience, spending 100 percent of time and energy believing it is possible to win," Landis said during a press conference on Saturday.
Holding his cap in his hand as the "The Star-Spangled Banner" played on the winners podium, Landis only allowed himself a smile once the anthem was over.
He plans soon to have replacement surgery on an arthritic right hip, but hopes to be back next year -- when Armstrong also hopes he'll be racing for Discovery.
"He's a damn good rider," Armstrong said. "We would take Floyd back."
Landis regained the lead from Oscar Pereiro of Spain with a strong performance in Saturday's time trial and ended up 57 seconds ahead of Pereiro in the overall standings.
Andreas Kloeden of Germany made it to the podium for the second time. He placed third, 1:29 behind Landis. In 2004, Kloeden was second behind Armstrong.
2006 Tour de France winner Floyd Landis of the US waves the US flag as he rides up the Champs-Elysees avenue in Paris following the final stage of the 93rd Tour de France cycling race between Antony, south of Paris, and Paris, Sunday, July 23, 2006.
AP - Jul 23, 4:46 pm EDT
More Photos
When Landis sweated for Armstrong between 2001-04, it was a total sacrifice. He got that commitment from his teammates this year.
"It's a risk placing everything on one person," Landis said Saturday. "It's the best way ... that's what I got (learned) from Armstrong."
Although they did not suffer the same types of pain, they both share an ability to overcome it.
"His strength was not his team," Armstrong said. "His strength was his mind and his will."
Armstrong overcame cancer to win his first Tour in 1999, and Landis has been racing with a hip so damaged it needs to be replaced. He delayed the operation to try for this Tour.
Turning humiliation into triumph also manifested itself in both riders.
When Armstrong suffered during the 2003 Tour, battered by dehydration and losing massive time to Jan Ullrich during a time trial, he appeared to be on the ropes.
Following that, he fell off his bike on a mountain climb up to Luz Ardiden -- when a spectator's bag had tangled itself up in his handlebars. Then, his pedal jammed, almost causing him to fall again, and he looked like he was about to lose the Tour.
Instead of reeling, he got angry, roared back up the mountain and destroyed his rivals in an astonishing display of mental strength.
Landis did a similar thing at this Tour.
On Wednesday, he suffered terribly in the Alps, losing huge time as he chugged upward slowly under a burning sun. The climbs -- the mammoth Col du Galibier and Croix-de-Fer -- took so much out of him that he ended up 8:08 behind Pereiro.
A few hours later, Landis said "my chances of winning the tour are very small at this point, but i will keep fighting."
2006 Tour de France winner Floyd Landis of the US waves the US flag as he rides down the Champs-Elysees avenue in Paris following the final stage of the 93rd Tour de France cycling race between Antony, south of Paris, and Paris, Sunday, July 23, 2006.
AP - Jul 23, 4:46 pm EDT
More Photos
The following day, he produced one of the great Tour rides, breaking out on a punishing mountain climb and riding alone for hours to pull to only 30 seconds behind Pereiro overall.
"It was something that will stay with me forever," Team CSC rider Stuart O'Grady said. "The biggest ride I've ever seen ... I was having a good day and he made me feel like an amateur."
Head straight, mouth closed, eyes fixed, legs moving with relentless conviction -- it could have been Armstrong himself.
Having learned the art of winning, Landis now has only one hurdle left to overcome -- his modesty.
Perhaps because of a conservative Mennonite upbringing, he recoils from the limelight and is as self-effacing as he is praiseworthy toward others.
But his sense for the dramatic, his panache -- mixed in with a never-say-die attitude -- have made Landis a darling of the French public the way Armstrong was not.
A French fan, Claude Camut, watching on the Champs-Elysees, said:
"Lance, you never saw him lose, or have a moment of weakness. You got the feeling it was easy for him."
While Armstrong dominated so clinically, Landis restored a dash of daring to cycling.
fiamme red
07-24-2006, 04:26 PM
Note the first person plural: "We're the one who gave him the opportunity. For us, there's a bit of a moral victory there because you gave a guy a chance to ride for you, to learn from you."
And what about this (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/cycling/tourdefrance/2006-07-23-landis-discovery_x.htm):
"We believe he's a good rider. We wouldn't be interested in taking him otherwise," Armstrong told The Associated Press. "He's balanced, and I think he's smarter tactically than people think. He knows tactics, and he knows the flow of the race."
"We believe he's a good rider"? Oh, please! He's just won the Tour! And "I think he's smarter tactically than people think": that's a back-handed sort of compliment, isn't it?
neverraced
07-24-2006, 04:29 PM
But you've got to admit that this kind of thing--supplying a different word in the quote to bolster your shaky premise-- is bad:
"It's a risk placing everything on one person," Landis said Saturday. "It's the best way ... that's what I got (learned) from Armstrong."
Big Dan
07-24-2006, 04:34 PM
Why take part of the credit? He deserves it all................... :eek:
SoCalSteve
07-24-2006, 04:35 PM
Why take part of the credit? He deserves it all................... :eek:
Quote of the day!
onekgguy
07-24-2006, 04:43 PM
Why take part of the credit? He deserves it all................... :eek:
I have to agree with you...sorry, Lance...maybe you just should've remained silent...this isn't about you.
Kevin
I have to agree with you...sorry, Lance...maybe you just should've remained silent...this isn't about you.
Kevin
agreed.
earth to lance -
as they might say, when sheep make love, the you is silent atmo.
hey, thanks for reading.
Big Dan
07-24-2006, 04:46 PM
When is the Wordin interview? He deserves credit too............. :p
SoCalSteve
07-24-2006, 04:57 PM
Sour Grapes! ATMO...
His team didnt do so well, so....why not take the credit for the winner?
It's funny, I have always been a strong supporter of LA, not sure anymore.
It's kind of sad, actually.
Steve
Sour Grapes! ATMO...
His team didnt do so well, so....why not take the credit for the winner?
It's funny, I have always been a strong supporter of LA, not sure anymore.
It's kind of sad, actually.
Steve
do what i do -
separate out the goodwill that comes/came from
his return from illness and the effect it had on
mainstream sufferers and their families.
what's left?
he won some races. he contributed to many fine
riders leaving the team bus for a myriad of reasons.
he became a meal ticket for a complete generation
of white collar cats who decided to take over at the
springs. atmo, it's a hollywood-like story that rivals
(as i have noted before) the boys from brazil, rollerball,
the skull and bones club, and all that a-type, holier-
than-thou crap that comes in stories like this. (http://outside.away.com/outside/features/200606/champions-club-1.html) for me,
it is all connected and he is at ground zero.
apologies for the drama, but i really believe it.
fiamme red
07-24-2006, 05:15 PM
stories like this. (http://outside.away.com/outside/features/200606/champions-club-1.html)Thanks for the link, atmo!
PanTerra
07-24-2006, 05:22 PM
Note the first person plural: "We're the one who gave him the opportunity. For us, there's a bit of a moral victory there because you gave a guy a chance to ride for you, to learn from you."
And what about this (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/cycling/tourdefrance/2006-07-23-landis-discovery_x.htm):
"We believe he's a good rider. We wouldn't be interested in taking him otherwise," Armstrong told The Associated Press. "He's balanced, and I think he's smarter tactically than people think. He knows tactics, and he knows the flow of the race."
"We believe he's a good rider"? Oh, please! He's just won the Tour! And "I think he's smarter tactically than people think": that's a back-handed sort of compliment, isn't it?
You think maybe when he says "we" he is speaking for his team? I ofter say we when referring to my company. Don't really see anything dubious in the "we" usage. But saying that he is a good rider is quite an understatement, especially when he follows it with, "We wouldn't be interested in taking him otherwise." Oh come on, "taking him?" He should have said, "we would be honored should Floyd want to ride for us, especally after our dismall performance."
Grant McLean
07-24-2006, 08:05 PM
I'm still trying to figure out what all the bike related technical advances the
special Trek-Armstrong partnership gave birth to.
Level top tubes?
Glued together frames?
Round bend handlebars?
Tubulars?
San Marco Concor saddles?
Look pedals?
Geeeze, Armstrong was one of the most conservative guys in the peleton,
and they sell it like he was Nikola Tesla.
g
Elefantino
07-24-2006, 08:13 PM
Didn't he help Trek get rid of that geezer Rolf?
onekgguy
07-24-2006, 08:48 PM
do what i do -
separate out the goodwill that comes/came from
his return from illness and the effect it had on
mainstream sufferers and their families.
I'm beginning to see your point of view however I do think he's done more good for the sport of cycling than bad...by far. You know, I think I first began to question his character after reading his first book. There was a woman in his life who stuck by him through all of his cancer treatments when there wasn't much good happening with him. He wrote quite a lot about her but then no more. There was suddenly a new woman in his life and who knows what became of the other...the one who saw him through his darkest days. Maybe I'm reading too much into the story.
I still wish him the best and thank him for all he's done for both cycling and cancer.
Kevin
William
07-24-2006, 09:01 PM
Having learned the art of winning, Landis now has only one hurdle left to overcome -- his modesty.
Perhaps because of a conservative Mennonite upbringing, he recoils from the limelight and is as self-effacing as he is praiseworthy toward others.
Modesty? That doesn't sound like much of a hurdle to me. I can think of a number of people in cycling, one in particular, who could use a wee bit of modesty.
William
Big Dan
07-24-2006, 09:06 PM
Landis proves you don't have to be a jacka$$ to win.......... :D
http://www.grahamwatson.com/2001/mercuryteam/image3.html
I'm beginning to see your point of view however I do think he's done more good for the sport of cycling than bad...by far. You know, I think I first began to question his character after reading his first book. There was a woman in his life who stuck by him through all of his cancer treatments when there wasn't much good happening with him. He wrote quite a lot about her but then no more. There was suddenly a new woman in his life and who knows what became of the other...the one who saw him through his darkest days. Maybe I'm reading too much into the story.
I still wish him the best and thank him for all he's done for both cycling and cancer.
Kevin
but what does that mean, "...he's done more good for the
sport of cycling than bad"?? it's a no brainer that his 1999
story was a ray of hope for illness victims and their families.
the money that funnelled into research is beyond great. but
what does "doing good for the sport..." entail? more sponsors?
better controls? better work environment for athletes? throw
me a bone. i can tell you one thing that i suspect has happened:
all of his peeps have decided to take over at the springs and
many, many good - i mean, great people left, or got fired because
lance, inc.'s support system and lifeline decided that they could
run things better than those who preceded them. that much, atmo,
is one bene of the lance era that is bad for the sport. rather than
develop riders and also keep racing vital at the regional level,
all these cats want to do is clone the program that gave them a
single champion after a decade of throwing money at it. that's
why i keep thinking of the boys from brazil when this subject
comes up. rant over.
BumbleBeeDave
07-24-2006, 10:14 PM
<<You think maybe when he says "we" he is speaking for his team?>>
Sometimes, maybe. But he just does it waaaay too much, and in too many interview situations that have nothing to do with the team. Beyond a certain point, it just comes across as arrogant.
BBD
Avispa
07-24-2006, 10:59 PM
"He's balanced, and I think he's smarter tactically than people think. He knows tactics, and he knows the flow of the race."
Man, had you not mention this was a quote from LA, I would have thought that this words came from W himself! :eek:
inGobwetrust
07-24-2006, 11:20 PM
You guys say what you want and keep bashing away if it makes you happy but as a cancer survivor myself I appreciate the good things Lance has done and the exposure he's brought to cycling. Sure, he can be abrasive but so can I and it seems like there have been more and more abrasive personailties around here as of late. It seems like Lance can do nothing any more without someone on this forum calling him a jackass. I don't agree with everything he says either but I also don't feel the need to pounce on his every word.
Floyd's win was one of the greatest triumphs in sports I've ever witnessed and it's being marred by, of all things, Lance bashing! Give it a rest.........please.
I come to this site because it's always been the most mature cycling forum I could find on the net but lately it's been a slugfest of politics or Lance bashing. Let's get back to arguing the merits of red meat versus vegetarianism, Campy vs Shimano, or clinchers vs tubulars.
Flame away.............
Archibald
07-24-2006, 11:34 PM
You guys say what you want and keep bashing away if it makes you happy but as a cancer survivor myself I appreciate the good things Lance has done and the exposure he's brought to cycling. Sure, he can be abrasive but so can I and it seems like there have been more and more abrasive personailties around here as of late. It seems like Lance can do nothing any more without someone on this forum calling him a jackass. I don't agree with everything he says either but I also don't feel the need to pounce on his every word.
Floyd's win was one of the greatest triumphs in sports I've ever witnessed and it's being marred by, of all things, Lance bashing! Give it a rest.........please.
I come to this site because it's always been the most mature cycling forum I could find on the net but lately it's been a slugfest of politics or Lance bashing. Let's get back to arguing the merits of red meat versus vegetarianism, Campy vs Shimano, or clinchers vs tubulars.
Flame away.............
Amen. I'll warn you though, you're dangerously close to being labeled a troll.
coylifut
07-24-2006, 11:52 PM
Amen. I'll warn you though, you're dangerously close to being labeled a troll.
it's all in the tone. it doesn't sound trollish at all.
Archibald
07-25-2006, 12:02 AM
it's all in the tone. it doesn't sound trollish at all.
In my kindest tone: Do you agree with him?
slowgoing
07-25-2006, 12:16 AM
I come to this site because it's always been the most mature cycling forum I could find on the net but lately it's been a slugfest of politics or Lance bashing. Let's get back to arguing the merits of red meat versus vegetarianism, Campy vs Shimano, or clinchers vs tubulars.
That reminds me.... Floyd rides Campy!
shaq-d
07-25-2006, 03:13 AM
Floyd's win was one of the greatest triumphs in sports I've ever witnessed and it's being marred by, of all things, Lance bashing! Give it a rest.........please.
totally agreed. flandis HIMSELF has given credit to lance for teaching him, probably by example, the art of anger and determination, and probably what it really means to work hard in cycling. in other words, lance is just saying what landis himself has said.
the lance bashing on this forum is as lame as the lack of respect for robbie mcewen, who is clearly our generation's greatest sprinter ;)
sd
William
07-25-2006, 08:27 AM
Amen. I'll warn you though, you're dangerously close to being labeled a troll.
Nope, not at all.
William
BumbleBeeDave
07-25-2006, 08:29 AM
It's not WHAT you say. It's HOW you say it . . .
BBD
Archibald
07-25-2006, 08:44 AM
Nope, not at all.
William
So you agree with him, then?
I'm really confused here. If I defend Armstrong against those saying far worse and meaner things about him than I have come even close to using in his defense, that makes me the troll. In every thread on this board about Landis, someone else finds a way to use it to demean or criticize Armstrong, and yet if I question that group think, or don't go along with it, I'm the troll.
Am I understanding this correctly? Set me straight here.
Big Dan
07-25-2006, 08:47 AM
You guys say what you want and keep bashing away if it makes you happy but as a cancer survivor myself I appreciate the good things Lance has done and the exposure he's brought to cycling. Sure, he can be abrasive but so can I and it seems like there have been more and more abrasive personailties around here as of late. It seems like Lance can do nothing any more without someone on this forum calling him a jackass. I don't agree with everything he says either but I also don't feel the need to pounce on his every word.
Floyd's win was one of the greatest triumphs in sports I've ever witnessed and it's being marred by, of all things, Lance bashing! Give it a rest.........please.
I come to this site because it's always been the most mature cycling forum I could find on the net but lately it's been a slugfest of politics or Lance bashing. Let's get back to arguing the merits of red meat versus vegetarianism, Campy vs Shimano, or clinchers vs tubulars.
Flame away.............
I called him a jacka$$ because he is a jacka$$. Sorry ah...... :D
Sandy
07-25-2006, 08:52 AM
That reminds me.... Floyd rides Campy!
That is a shame. I was starting to like him! :)
:banana: Slowgoing Shimano Serotta Sandy :banana:
William
07-25-2006, 09:03 AM
So you agree with him, then?
I'm really confused here. If I defend Armstrong against those saying far worse and meaner things about him than I have come even close to using in his defense, that makes me the troll. In every thread on this board about Landis, someone else finds a way to use it to demean or criticize Armstrong, and yet if I question that group think, or don't go along with it, I'm the troll.
Am I understanding this correctly? Set me straight here.
You guys say what you want and keep bashing away if it makes you happy but as a cancer survivor myself I appreciate the good things Lance has done and the exposure he's brought to cycling.
The man is entitled to his opinion. Just like everyone else here is as well. The whole "Lance" thing has been pretty salty around here as of late.
I can agree that there are good things that Lance has done. He also gives food to those who don't like him with some of his abrasive "me, me" statements. But, that's life in the spotlight.
William
You guys say what you want and keep bashing away if it makes you happy but as a cancer survivor myself I appreciate the good things Lance has done and the exposure he's brought to cycling. Sure, he can be abrasive but so can I and it seems like there have been more and more abrasive personailties around here as of late. It seems like Lance can do nothing any more without someone on this forum calling him a jackass. I don't agree with everything he says either but I also don't feel the need to pounce on his every word.
Flame away.............
anyone with half a pulse has to agree that lance's
contribution to those touched by illness, all illnesses
for that matter, is unrivalled. what an inspiration atmo.
but i do believe that the threads here discuss his bike
racing activities, both on and off the bike, and in no way
cross over to his off-season life as an uberfundraiser.
look - we're discussing racing, the tdf, and nothing else.
if he, or anyone, comports himself as he did since 1999,
eventually those who were stepped on or around are going
to be at the center of the issues we discuss here.
whether those issues center around jemison, livingston,
andreau, hamilton, landis, z-man, ferrari, simeoni, c.t.s.,
or any of the entitled-acting fat cats that he surrounds
himself with, he's a public figure and there is no real way
to deny that his actions (wrt the names above) get under
the skin of alot, ALOT, of people.
sorry - i just had to add that.
Grant McLean
07-25-2006, 09:10 AM
So you agree with him, then?
I'm really confused here. If I defend Armstrong against those saying far worse and meaner things about him than I have come even close to using in his defense, that makes me the troll. In every thread on this board about Landis, someone else finds a way to use it to demean or criticize Armstrong, and yet if I question that group think, or don't go along with it, I'm the troll.
Am I understanding this correctly? Set me straight here.
Your posts make the most common chat room logic miskates.
It's not a good idea to draw any conclusion from "group think".
Maybe i agree with everything you say, but missed the post, or was
away from my computer. Posts get responded to based on who is
there when you say it, it's not some conspiracy to jump on what you say
personally.
Making a parallel between what you say, and what others
say on the same subject is also a mistake, becuase members tend
to respond to posts from people they know, and you have so few posts,
and I haven't seen any introduction from you, so I don't really know
where you're coming from.
g
As a cancer survivor myself, he made one comment in an interview that resonated with me. He said that if his foundation could help make even a tiny gain toward helping people with the disease, all the race wins and all the cycling would mean nothing at all in comparison. I'll take that one at face value and for that comment Armstrong seems like a decent guy.
Another meaning of the comment is that cycling is a whole different side of him away from the cancer foundation side of him. I separate the two in my opinion of the guy. And when I really think about it, he's right. Cycling really means nothing in the scheme of things.
As a cancer survivor myself, he made one comment in an interview that resonated with me. He said that if his foundation could help make even a tiny gain toward helping people with the disease, all the race wins and all the cycling would mean nothing at all in comparison. I'll take that one at face value and for that comment Armstrong seems like a decent guy.
Another meaning of the comment is that cycling is a whole different side of him away from the cancer foundation side of him. I separate the two in my opinion of the guy. And when I really think about it, he's right. Cycling really means nothing in the scheme of things.
there's no quote preceding this, so who are you
replying to? fwiw, i agree with you. cycling means
nothing in the scheme of things, but how you treat
people does count. i wish i could see evidence of his
compassion during his daytime job as a (former) racer.
as it stands, i only see it sometimes in the laf stuff.
i am not sure one needs to have suffered in order to
take sides here. he had a way before 1999, and that
way has crept back into his public personna since then.
for a brief moment after the first tdf win, i was drawn
into the story. then, as the postal bus unravelled and all
the behind the scenes machinations became part of the
public's domain, i sensed that layers of sensitivity were
peeling away.
Lifelover
07-25-2006, 09:37 AM
[QUOTE=inGobwetrust]..I come to this site because it's always been the most mature cycling forum I could find on the net but lately it's been a slugfest of politics or Lance bashing. Let's get back to arguing the merits of red meat versus vegetarianism, Campy vs Shimano, or clinchers vs tubulars.
..QUOTE]
+1
I assume it's cyclical and will come around. It certianly is not what it was when started lurking. It has changed in a strange way.
BumbleBeeDave
07-25-2006, 09:42 AM
. . . he had a way before 1999, and that
way has crept back into his public personna since then.
for a brief moment after the first tdf win, i was drawn
into the story. then, as the postal bus unravelled and all
the behind the scenes machinations became part of the
public's domain, i sensed that layers of sensitivity were
peeling away.
I think atmo says it here way better than I ever could. His behavior and public comments just seem to be coming off as more and more arrogant and cocky. He's not jumping up on the table and throwing a fit or anything abrupt like that, but it's more like a slow but sure drift. I see mounting evidence that the "old" Lance is coming back, and it's extremely discouraging. Given that his extremely admirable fundraising efforts for cancer research are inextricably linked to his cycling achievments, I worry that those fundraising efforts are going to be hurt if he continues to behave in what comes across as a patronizing and arrogant manner . . .
BBD
PanTerra
07-25-2006, 09:44 AM
there's no quote preceding this, so who are you
replying to? fwiw, i agree with you. cycling means
nothing in the scheme of things, but how you treat
people does count. i wish i could see evidence of his
compassion during his daytime job as a (former) racer.
as it stands, i only see it sometimes in the laf stuff.
i am not sure one needs to have suffered in order to
take sides here. he had a way before 1999, and that
way has crept back into his public personna since then.
for a brief moment after the first tdf win, i was drawn
into the story. then, as the postal bus unravelled and all
the behind the scenes machinations became part of the
public's domain, i sensed that layers of sensitivity were
peeling away.
By looking at Tom's post topic, it looks like he is answering Archibald's post #33 gitmo.
fiamme red
07-25-2006, 09:46 AM
I'll probably be flamed for saying this, but there's a certain commercialism surrounding the LAF that's distasteful to me. For example, Nike's 10//2 (http://niketown.nike.com/niketown/catalog/category.jsp?categoryId=308202) line of overpriced t-shirts and cycling clothes. $1 of each purchase goes to the LAF, but Nike and LANCE are making a nice profit here. (10/2/96 was the day he was diagnosed with cancer.) It's somewhat exploitative, as a for-profit 9/11 line of clothing would be, even if $1 of each purchase went to the families of the victims.
BumbleBeeDave
07-25-2006, 09:56 AM
I had not even considered this. It would be interesting to find out exactly who does make a profit from this merchandise. As expensive as this stuff is, there's got to be considerably more profit in it than just the $1 they donate.
BBD
there's no quote preceding this, so who are you
replying to? fwiw, i agree with you. cycling means
nothing in the scheme of things, but how you treat
people does count....
Eh, a general reply to above. FWIW, I agree with you as well but I'm not expressing the point very well. What I'm saying in a very oblique way is that the cancer support work is very good. The rest of it, I don't take as bright a view of it. I reserve some judgement because I read excerpted quotes of his comments outside their context and without seeing his expression as he says these things so I can't say I know everything about his meaning. But stitched together in a fabric, in my opinion, they reveal a personality I'd find a little off-putting to be around. So I do the Greenland Eskimo thing. I determine that I can ignore the guy and go on. I have the luxury of being in that position. If cycling was my business, my life or my passion in a different sense than it is I sure couldn't do that.
I agree, mileage out of the suffering thing is a little unseemly but in this case I use it to point out that I do have a slight insight into at least one facet of the discussion. I sure as hell can't lean on any kind of greater intellectual prowess or abstract thought, I have to squeeze what I can out of what experience I do have. Excusing behavior because of compensatory good works doesn't work, in my opinion. I don't believe that you can excuse somebody for pouring chemicals in the river just because they save puppies in their spare time.
Sheesh. I'm celebrating my own personal National Incoherent Gibberish Day. I just read what I wrote here and it makes no sense to me. If you can make heads or tails of it, tell me what I meant.
Archibald
07-25-2006, 10:06 AM
Your posts make the most common chat room logic miskates.
It's not a good idea to draw any conclusion from "group think". Maybe i agree with everything you say, but missed the post, or was
away from my computer. Posts get responded to based on who is
there when you say it, it's not some conspiracy to jump on what you say
personally.
Thank you, Grant.
I'm aware the entire membership of this forum does not contribute to the bash Lance threads. I would think that many avoid them regardless of how they feel. They may agree with one side or another and I would have no inkling, how could I? I can only know that which I've read. Granted, I could have selected a better phrase than "group think" to describe what I feel I've observed. What I have seen here over the last year is a certain "cult of personality" that surrounds a handful of individuals like is found on any forum. While you may object to that comment, there is undeniably a strong and vocal group of anti-lance types whose stature influences others. This became obvious to me in the other thread. If one of these members were questioned on their position, the response from others would, "you have no idea who you're talking to." These members may well be cycling luminaries, but in my opinion, they are guilty of the same type of behavior they accuse Armstrong of displaying. To make it worse, Armstrong is not here to defend himself or his position as they are. That is what I truly don't understand.
To make it worse, Armstrong is not here to defend himself or his position as they are. That is what I truly don't understand.
MAN IN LINE
Wait a minute, why can't I give my opinion?
It's a free country!
ALVY
I mean, d- He can give you- Do you hafta
give it so loud? I mean, aren't you ashamed
to pontificate like that? And-and the funny
part of it is, M-Marshall McLuhan, you don't
know anything about Marshall McLuhan's...work!
MAN IN LINE
(Overlapping)
Wait a minute! Really? Really? I happen to
teach a class at Columbia called "TV Media
and Culture"! So I think that my insights
into Mr. McLuhan-well, have a great deal of
validity.
ALVY
Oh, do yuh?
MAN IN LINE
Yes.
ALVY
Well, that's funny, because I happen to
have Mr. McLuhan right here. So ... so,
here, just let me-I mean, all right. Come
over here ... a second.
Alvy gestures to the camera which follows him and the man in line to the back
of the crowded lobby. He moves over to a large stand-up movie poster and
pulls Marshall McLuhan from behind the poster.
MAN IN LINE
Oh.
ALVY
(To McLuhan)
Tell him.
MCLUHAN
(To the man in line)
I hear-I heard what you were saying.
You-you know nothing of my work. You
mean my whole fallacy is wrong. How you
ever got to teach a course in anything is
totally amazing.
ALVY
(To the camera)
Boy, if life were only like this!
Archibald
07-25-2006, 10:18 AM
Eh, a general reply to above. FWIW, I agree with you as well but I'm not expressing the point very well. What I'm saying in a very oblique way is that the cancer support work is very good. The rest of it, I don't take as bright a view of it. I reserve some judgement because I read excerpted quotes of his comments outside their context and without seeing his expression as he says these things so I can't say I know everything about his meaning. But stitched together in a fabric, in my opinion, they reveal a personality I'd find a little off-putting to be around. So I do the Greenland Eskimo thing. I determine that I can ignore the guy and go on. I have the luxury of being in that position. If cycling was my business, my life or my passion in a different sense than it is I sure couldn't do that.
I agree, mileage out of the suffering thing is a little unseemly but in this case I use it to point out that I do have a slight insight into at least one facet of the discussion. I sure as hell can't lean on any kind of greater intellectual prowess or abstract thought, I have to squeeze what I can out of what experience I do have. Excusing behavior because of compensatory good works doesn't work, in my opinion. I don't believe that you can excuse somebody for pouring chemicals in the river just because they save puppies in their spare time.
Sheesh. I'm celebrating my own personal National Incoherent Gibberish Day. I just read what I wrote here and it makes no sense to me. If you can make heads or tails of it, tell me what I meant.
I think you've done a fine and honorable job of communicating your feelings. :)
edited to take out redundancy.
Archibald
07-25-2006, 10:25 AM
anyone with half a pulse has to agree that lance's
contribution to those touched by illness, all illnesses
for that matter, is unrivalled. what an inspiration atmo.
but i do believe that the threads here discuss his bike
racing activities, both on and off the bike, and in no way
cross over to his off-season life as an uberfundraiser.
look - we're discussing racing, the tdf, and nothing else.
if he, or anyone, comports himself as he did since 1999,
eventually those who were stepped on or around are going
to be at the center of the issues we discuss here.
whether those issues center around jemison, livingston,
andreau, hamilton, landis, z-man, ferrari, simeoni, c.t.s.,
or any of the entitled-acting fat cats that he surrounds
himself with, he's a public figure and there is no real way
to deny that his actions (wrt the names above) get under
the skin of alot, ALOT, of people.
sorry - i just had to add that.Too often we put athletes on pedestals and then try to knock them down for not living up to our own ideals. In my opinion, Armstrong is not a heroic figure because he is a bike racer and won seven Tours. He is a heroic figure because he used his story, his influence, and his success to better the lives of countless others. No other cyclist has ever achieved that. To me you can't seperate the different aspects of the man, the cocky racer from the caring philanthropist, he is what he is and in my opinion he is still worth defending. It is not my mission in life, I am not part of the Livestrong foundation, I am not on his payroll, and I have no direct connection to the man other than cycling and being a survivor myself.
scrooge
07-25-2006, 10:39 AM
stories like this. (http://outside.away.com/outside/features/200606/champions-club-1.html) .
Hmm.. I learned a new verb:
The retired Armstrong and his former teammates Bode Millered late into the night
Too often we put athletes on pedestals and then try to knock them down for not living up to our own ideals.
who has placed him on a pedestal?
It is not my mission in life, I am not part of the Livestrong foundation, I am not on his payroll, and I have no direct connection to the man other than cycling and being a survivor myself.
i am glad you are with us.
some of us are just sports fans.
BumbleBeeDave
07-25-2006, 10:43 AM
I also think Tom expressed himself pretty well.
My dislike for Lance lately--and it's only lately that it's really gotten to be active dislike--is based more on his personal behavior, pretty much separate from any of the doping accusations or his cancer support work.
I saw a great deal of humility and modesty in his public statements and behavior after his first win. He clearly came across as someone who has been through a life-changing experience in literally fighting off the Grim Reaper as he was being dragged through Death's Door. Can I cite specific examples or give you a list of exact statements? Well, no. But I'm sure many people--including you--have had the same experience of forming an opnion of someone over time, built on a body of small incidents that all go together to give you a personal opinion of their character.
To me, the tenor of those little incidents I observe with Lance has changed markedly over the past several years. He comes through as less modest, less likeable, more arrogant, at times coming across as having this patronizing manner and sense of entitlement that really turn me off. Again, can I give you a list of specific incidents? For the most part, no. But that remark in the interview where he says "We would take him" about Floyd, rather than something like "We be happy to work with him" kind of shows what I mean. It just rubs me the wrong way personally. And I think atmo is right that it rubs a lot of other people the wrong way, too.
This is troubling because Lance does have the power to be an incredible role model and does some great work fundraising for cancer research. But ultimately for me personally, my opinion of him and my likelihood of donating to his cause is closely linked to his likeability as a person. But lately he just has not been coming across as a very likeable person--and it seems to be getting worse. It's not so much what he says and does but the WAY in which he says and does it.
And some of it is not-so-little incidents . . . chasing down Simeoni like some cheap neighborhood bully in the Tour was very revealing to me of his character. So is the habit he has shown of suing any "little people" who say anything critical about him, but not being willing to take on Greg Lemond in court for the same thing. Another incident that told me a lot was the Sports Illustrated(?) article I read about him that described him "Making his own parking place" for his Cadillac Escalade when he arrived late at a cross race. It painted a vivid picture for me of the fit guy who parks his Mercedes in the handicapped zone because it's closer to the door, he's in a hurry, and he apparently thinks he can get away with it. And Lance has shown a habit of accumulating former friends and teammates who may not openly criticize him, but their diplomatically chosen words or outright silence when asked about him all go together to speak volumes to me.
Again, can I give you an itemized list of every little thing that has helped shape my opinion of him? And again, the answer is no. But I don't think I'm much different from anyone else in that all those little incidents and impressions put together help shape my opinions about other people, and the ones I have of Lance make me glad I don't work with or for him and don't have to be around him on a constant basis.
BBD
BumbleBeeDave
07-25-2006, 10:47 AM
<<<Too often we put athletes on pedestals and then try to knock them down for not living up to our own ideals. In my opinion, Armstrong is not a heroic figure because he is a bike racer and won seven Tours. He is a heroic figure because he used his story, his influence, and his success to better the lives of countless others. No other cyclist has ever achieved that. To me you can't seperate the different aspects of the man, the cocky racer from the caring philanthropist, he is what he is and in my opinion he is still worth defending. It is not my mission in life, I am not part of the Livestrong foundation, I am not on his payroll, and I have no direct connection to the man other than cycling and being a survivor myself.>>>
Well said.
BBD
Big Dan
07-25-2006, 10:47 AM
lovin', is what i got, i said remember that.
lovin', is what i got, and remember that.
lovin', is what i got, i said remember that.
lovin', is what i got, i got, i got
why i don't cry when my dog runs away. i don't get angry at the bills i have to pay. i don't get angry when my mom smokes pot, hits that bottle and goes right to the rock. ****in and fighting, it's all the same. to live with louie dog's the only way to stay sane. let the lovin', let the lovin' come back to me
:p
catulle
07-25-2006, 11:04 AM
Talking about undoing with your head what you've done with your feet. Talking about undoing with your tongue what you've done with your legs. Talking about about digging a deeper ditch by emulating the person you're trying to defend. Arrogance, hypocrisy, and contempt for others are never a virtue. Insults never advance a worthy cause. Get it? Get it Archibold cum Lance? Anything else is something else.
Many people here feel about LA very differently than Atmo, but they have never pretended to insult anyone. And, in turn, they've always been respected. I really don't care what you think or how you feel, but it bothers me that you throw little spit-balls of insults and innuendo to a group of people who are mostly extremely respectful, kind, and friendly. I'm very grateful for the warm reception I have received in this forum and I appreciate the camarederie and playful banter that gives this forum personality and a life of its own; thus, I don't care much for your sneer remarks. You don't have the right to insult anyone just because some people here are not LA sycophants like you are, or are paid by LA like you seem to be.
Erik.Lazdins
07-25-2006, 11:06 AM
<<You think maybe when he says "we" he is speaking for his team?>>
Sometimes, maybe. But he just does it waaaay too much, and in too many interview situations that have nothing to do with the team. Beyond a certain point, it just comes across as arrogant.
BBD
BBD - Agreed "waaaay too much"
Megalomania has set in.
Why in hell are we all spending som much time discussing, dissing Lance? He's a human: like all of us complicated, contradictory, likeable one moment and dislikeable another. What can not be taken away from him is his tangible success. But it seems obvious that that is the only simple part of him.
What I cannot fathom is why he matters so much to so many -- don't we have better things to consider than the various public strings of his personality?
And on a final note, consider this: how many of us could experience the incredible change of circumstances Lance has undergone (not just cancer but 7 victories in the most prestigious bike race on the planet, incredible fame, wealth, adulation, opportunity) and remain the same kind of person we were at the beginning? Life experience has a way of molding lives and personalities -- and not always to everyone else's liking.
What I cannot fathom is why he matters so much to so many -- don't we have better things to consider than the various public strings of his personality?
maybe this (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=172674&postcount=14) atmo?
fiamme red
07-25-2006, 11:15 AM
maybe this (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=172674&postcount=14) atmo?You... you... revisionist!!! :eek: :no: :beer:
“Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people”
Eleanor Roosevelt
Archibald
07-25-2006, 11:21 AM
Talking about undoing with your head what you've done with your feet. Talking about undoing with your tongue what you've done with your legs. Talking about about digging a deeper ditch by emulating the person you're trying to defend. Arrogance, hypocrisy, and contempt for others are never a virtue. Insults never advance a worthy cause. Get it? Get it Archibold cum Lance? Anything else is something else.
Many people here feel about LA very differently than Atmo, but they have never pretended to insult anyone. And, in turn, they've always been respected. I really don't care what you think or how you feel, but it bothers me that you throw little spit-balls of insults and innuendo to a group of people who are mostly extremely respectful, kind, and friendly. I'm very grateful for the warm reception I have received in this forum and I appreciate the camarederie and playful banter that gives this forum personality and a life of its own; thus, I don't care much for your sneer remarks. You don't have the right to insult anyone just because some people here are not LA sycophants like you are, or are paid by LA like you seem to be.
What am I to learn from your ad hominem post?
“Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people”
Eleanor Roosevelt
throw me a bone!
how can we pick ourselves up from the discussing people
grid and morphe into a more enlightened state? racers are
people. and we're discussing an event that just ended.
Big Dan
07-25-2006, 11:29 AM
If the shoe fits.............. :cool:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
throw me a bone!
how can we pick ourselves up from the discussing people
grid and morphe into a more enlightened state? ...
"Does the use of artificial joints (Floyd's soon-to-be-new hip) create a new category of performance-enhancing modifications to the human body?" Discuss.
...love ya, atmo!
Archibald
07-25-2006, 11:36 AM
I think it is important to remember that he's been in the spotlight constantly since '99. He's had to defend himself against all manner of attacks. He doesn't have the benefit of hindsight and the intense "man on the sidewalk" analysis when the microphone is thrust in his face. What I see out of him now is very guarded and he's still torn apart for what he did or didn't say. If you read his books and learn about his early life, I would say that he has unresolved abandonment issues (my contribution to internet psychoanalysis). He will never be gracious about any perceived disloyalty and that will always cut him the deepest.
I also think Tom expressed himself pretty well.
My dislike for Lance lately--and it's only lately that it's really gotten to be active dislike--is based more on his personal behavior, pretty much separate from any of the doping accusations or his cancer support work.
I saw a great deal of humility and modesty in his public statements and behavior after his first win. He clearly came across as someone who has been through a life-changing experience in literally fighting off the Grim Reaper as he was being dragged through Death's Door. Can I cite specific examples or give you a list of exact statements? Well, no. But I'm sure many people--including you--have had the same experience of forming an opnion of someone over time, built on a body of small incidents that all go together to give you a personal opinion of their character.
To me, the tenor of those little incidents I observe with Lance has changed markedly over the past several years. He comes through as less modest, less likeable, more arrogant, at times coming across as having this patronizing manner and sense of entitlement that really turn me off. Again, can I give you a list of specific incidents? For the most part, no. But that remark in the interview where he says "We would take him" about Floyd, rather than something like "We be happy to work with him" kind of shows what I mean. It just rubs me the wrong way personally. And I think atmo is right that it rubs a lot of other people the wrong way, too.
This is troubling because Lance does have the power to be an incredible role model and does some great work fundraising for cancer research. But ultimately for me personally, my opinion of him and my likelihood of donating to his cause is closely linked to his likeability as a person. But lately he just has not been coming across as a very likeable person--and it seems to be getting worse. It's not so much what he says and does but the WAY in which he says and does it.
And some of it is not-so-little incidents . . . chasing down Simeoni like some cheap neighborhood bully in the Tour was very revealing to me of his character. So is the habit he has shown of suing any "little people" who say anything critical about him, but not being willing to take on Greg Lemond in court for the same thing. Another incident that told me a lot was the Sports Illustrated(?) article I read about him that described him "Making his own parking place" for his Cadillac Escalade when he arrived late at a cross race. It painted a vivid picture for me of the fit guy who parks his Mercedes in the handicapped zone because it's closer to the door, he's in a hurry, and he apparently thinks he can get away with it. And Lance has shown a habit of accumulating former friends and teammates who may not openly criticize him, but their diplomatically chosen words or outright silence when asked about him all go together to speak volumes to me.
Again, can I give you an itemized list of every little thing that has helped shape my opinion of him? And again, the answer is no. But I don't think I'm much different from anyone else in that all those little incidents and impressions put together help shape my opinions about other people, and the ones I have of Lance make me glad I don't work with or for him and don't have to be around him on a constant basis.
BBD
"Does the use of artificial joints (Floyd's soon-to-be-new hip) create a new category of performance-enhancing modifications to the human body?" Discuss.
...love ya, atmo!
HUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=230025&postcount=4)
If you read his books and learn about his early life, I would say that he has unresolved abandonment issues (my contribution to internet psychoanalysis). He will never be gracious about any perceived disloyalty and that will always cut him the deepest.
now this is a post i can get behind.
Big Dan
07-25-2006, 11:51 AM
Always remember "The First Cut is the Deepest"................... :hello:
thank you Cat.....
Serpico
07-25-2006, 12:00 PM
wow, no matter how much anyone claims the 'Lance era' is over, it seems everyone is completely obsessed with this topic--even here (which is better than any other cycling board bar none).
I usually try to separate Lance: 1) cyclist 2) cancer survivor 3) intense personality, sometimes jerk
I'm only interested in the first two, but I'll admit the 3rd aspect bugs me a bit (he's clearly got some kind of Orson Wells/Citizen Kane thing goin' on--how would you like to face life, at the young age of 32[?] and know you've already done your best work--no matter how small cycling is in the US, 7 tour wins in a row is HUGE.).
He's a badass on the bike, and he's overcome some pretty significant odds.
I think folks 'in the biz', like Atmo, likely have a different perspective due to their knowledge of 'behind the scenes' machinations, whether it's from the biz angle or the racing angle. I can't say I necessarily agree or disagree--I simply don't have the knowledge (they/he have) to make an informed judgement. Who knows, maybe people in the survivorship community or philanthropic groups have a perspective I don't/can't understand?
My perspective is simply that more people in the US are riding bikes now, and cancer survivors have a narrative for hope--it's really that simple for me. I feel these two things likely outweigh his personality, which still rubs me the wrong way occassionally. And yes, the Lance fanboys are annoying--but they exist in every sport, and because cycling is so small in the US many aren't familiar enough with the sport to have other cycling "heroes".
But yeah, megalomania and all that--it's getting old, I'd like to see Lance mature into an ambassador for the sport, I wish he had more gravitas with the int'l crowd, etc. Unfortunately many of the character traits that we abhor are likely the same traits that made him a winner--people with similar success stories (business people, like those alpha dudes from the 'power peloton' in Outside magazine) aren't always pleasant.
And who knows who Landis is..? Let's give it 5 years when all the books and articles have been written, when his teammates have gone on record, etc. Comparing Landis and Lance today and saying "Landis isn't a punk--see, you don't have to be a **** like Armstrong" is really premature. We know nothing about Landis, aside except for the "churn butter twice a day" upbringing (which will become his narrative once he starts doing press junkets in the US this week).
BumbleBeeDave
07-25-2006, 12:01 PM
<<If you read his books and learn about his early life, I would say that he has unresolved abandonment issues (my contribution to internet psychoanalysis). He will never be gracious about any perceived disloyalty and that will always cut him the deepest.>>
I agree with you 100% on this part. This is part of why I find him fascinating. His upbringing seems to have become both his biggest asset and his biggest liability. I wonder if he has, in fact, sought out any therapy to deal with those issues?
BBD
Archibald
07-25-2006, 12:08 PM
I wonder if he has, in fact, sought out any therapy to deal with those issues?
BBD
I would doubt it. If news ever leaked of Armstrong seeking or receiving therapy it would just become more tabloid fodder. A shame really.
gasman
07-25-2006, 12:13 PM
Didn't he help Trek get rid of that geezer Rolf?
This is a little unfair. Rolf is a very nice guy and supports local racing here in Eugene.His company-Rolf Prima makes some very nice wheels-light and sturdy.When friends have had any problems with the wheels they have very responsive. He is passionate about his work and in spite of two broken hips in the last couple years he still loves go out and ride. Last year he rode guys off his wheel half his age doing a century.
Sandy
07-25-2006, 12:31 PM
“Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people”
Eleanor Roosevelt
I normally discuss dogs. What does that make me? :rolleyes:
Bow Wow Sandy
I normally discuss dogs. What does that make me? :rolleyes:
Bow Wow Sandy
a canine to fiver atmo.
Kevan
07-25-2006, 01:08 PM
There's is still a drop of moisture in this topic.
I think I'll take this thread now, copy it into an Excel spreadsheet, maybe do some "Autofiltering" maybe some "Sumif's" equations and see if I can't come up with yet another book about Lance, egos, racing and cancer.
Not to worry, I'll give you guys the credit. Just not the money.
I'm going now to pound Sand....y.
vaxn8r
07-25-2006, 01:17 PM
....
And some of it is not-so-little incidents . . . chasing down Simeoni like some cheap neighborhood bully in the Tour was very revealing to me of his character. So is the habit he has shown of suing any "little people" who say anything critical about him, but not being willing to take on Greg Lemond in court for the same thing. ...BBD
I'll chime in and say that BBD put it very nicely some of the issues I have had over the years with LA. The Simeoni thing was unbelievably classless and worse it pointed the finger of doping squarely right back in LA's face. Hey, if you have nothing to hide what's the problem? But no, you have to humiliate another human being in a hugely public event.
Perhaps the biggest issue for me is how little credit he gives Greg LeMond for paving the way for his success. No American had broken into the European Pro cycling scene before Greg. Greg had the courage to go to Europe on his own dime and just start racing. We know how that story turned out. If GL hadn't laid all the groundwork, maybe Americans would have broken into it eventually but maybe still not. But all I hear from LA is snide and derogatory comments about GL. Yet tellingly, like others have mentioned, LA has no qualms about taking a share of credit for Floyd Landis victory. Doesn't it cut both ways? Apparently not for LA.
I was happy enough for him to win but if you go back over the last few years I've been very consistent in what I've posted about him.
I was happy enough for him to win but if you go back over the last few years I've been very consistent in what I've posted about him.
most of us have as well -
it's too bad new folk can't get a sense
of that. it'd make all of this so much
for civil atmo.
Serpico
07-25-2006, 02:55 PM
Lance is a ****--what's new
same story, different day
(edited for clarity)
PanTerra
07-25-2006, 03:38 PM
<<You think maybe when he says "we" he is speaking for his team?>>
Sometimes, maybe. But he just does it waaaay too much, and in too many interview situations that have nothing to do with the team. Beyond a certain point, it just comes across as arrogant.
BBD
I was just going by the referenced article. Now if he starts referring to himself in the 3rd person... :rolleyes:
Big Dan
07-25-2006, 03:43 PM
Agree with Vax............
William
07-25-2006, 03:47 PM
http://www.engfrat.newcastle.edu.au/images/babe.gif
William ;)
PanTerra
07-25-2006, 04:37 PM
His behavior and public comments just seem to be coming off as more and more arrogant and cocky.
Reminds me of some lines from a movie:
In case some of you wonder who the best is,
they're on this plaque.
The best driver and his RIO
from each class has his name on it.
They have the option to come back here
and be Top Gun instructors.
You think you will be on the plaque?
- Yes, sir.
That's pretty arrogant,
considering the company you're in.
- Yes, sir.
I like that in a pilot.
He's not jumping up on the table and throwing a fit or anything abrupt like that, but it's more like a slow but sure drift. I see mounting evidence that the "old" Lance is coming back, and it's extremely discouraging.
BBD
Like his Matrix days when he was Dallas, when he was in a fight after the race, he had his loaned car taken back by the team's owner. But now they are good friends.
vBulletin® v3.8.7, Copyright ©2000-2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.