First Road Race: Should I do Cat 3/4 or Cat 4/5?

[quauhnahuac]

the difference in the cats is about 10 miles, so that's not an issue. first time doing this, though I've done maybe 30 crits, 5 tts, 10 mtb, and 50 cx races, so I'm comfortable racing and in groups, etc.

pros/cons to each? which would i have a better chance generally of doing well? ime many strong people are in cat 5 but dont race much so its not always easy

[earlfoss]

If you have some experience in group rides and your fitness is in a good place, I suggest the 3/4. The skill level in the 3/4 will make the race a bit smoother and risk of crashing due to noobs with no riding/pack skills will be lower.

[eippo1]

If you're comfortable in crits and a cat 4, I have no idea why you'd want to race with cat 5's purely out of a concern for your own safety. Plenty of strong cat 5's that don't know how to race diving corners etc. Probably plenty of 4's as well, but I'll leave that alone.

[redir]

There are no crashes in pro 1/2 races
There are only a few crashes in cat 3 races
Lots more in cat 4
and EVERYONE crashes in cat 5 races


The above information is completely false.

So is the idea that lower cats have less crashes... This argument comes up a lot but that's from my 20+ years racing experience anyway. And frankly the crashes I've been in and or near in the pro 1/2 races were way worse then others, that's anecdotal but you know, grain of salt and all that..

Having said that, you sound like a solid cat 4 so you should probably stick to the 3/4 race and let the less experienced guys have their chances in the 4/5's.

[carpediemracing]

First, if it's hilly, you need to put down a certain significant amount of power to stay with the group on the hills no matter what category you do. It's a significantly higher minimum power level than if the course is flat. If you're romping away on the hills all the time, and I mean by accident (literally) you roll away from the field on a hill in a crit or you gain a minute without trying hard on a group ride, then do the 3-4s for sure.

For me, for example, I'd want to enter a Cat 3-4-5 race (as a 3) and I'm pretty sure I'd be one of the first riders off the back. I can't put down solid, sustained power.

The difference between the 3-4s and 4-5s will generally be the size of the pool of potential race winners. In the 3-4s it's a larger group of riders, I'll throw out a random number of say 15-20 riders out of an 80-100 rider field. In the 4-5s it's a smaller group, maybe 5-10 potential race winners out of a full 75 rider field. Also the 4-5s won't have the monster moves that the 3-4s will have. One or two digs will determine the 4-5s. It'll take a bit more to break apart and demoralize a 3-4 field.

At the same time I'll gamble and say that if the course was hilly then the top few riders in the 4-5s would have been in contention in the 3-4s as well. This goes along with what you said about there being strong Cat 5s. For sure there are, and although they may not have the honed edge a sharp Cat 3 will have, by virtue of their aerobic fitness/strength they can put a world of hurt on the field in a hilly race. In addition you'll find some sandbagging Cat 4s who ought to be a 3 by now. I remember racing against a guy who was some Masters champion (New England? Bigger than just a state champ) but he was still a Cat 4 because all his wins were in Masters races. In a road race he should have been a 2. In crits Cat 3 would have been appropriate. However he raced Cat 4s for a while, maybe a year.

[45K10]

The main difference from a 3/4 race and a 4/5 race is the 3/4 race may have some teamwork involved and the experience enough to pull something off.

When I started racing way back in 00's the cat 5 races would sell out at 85 and man was it a sketchy and a every-man for himself kind of deal but the only RR I ever won was a 4/5 race that had 120 guys in it. If you get lucky enough and place yourself in a good spot your only sprinting against 10 guys so you never can tell which one you would have better odds at winning unless you can hold off a whole field by yourself.

[David Tollefson]

If this is your first USAC road race and you haven't been licensed before, then you actually have no choice but to race Cat V. That's how the system works. Now if you're working under some other local/state system and actually have the choice, then maybe the 3/4 race will be more suitable or "safer". In this area, back when I was racing, the 3's was usually the largest field, and actually had more crashes (though fewer injuries from those crashes).

Your experience in TT's, MTB races, and xc really isn't going to be material in your ability to hang with the 3's in a road race. Depending on how you were able to animate a crit, that might be helpful. If you were just hanging on in those crits, you would likely be way over your head in a 3's road race.

[FlashUNC]

If this is your first USAC road race and you haven't been licensed before, then you actually have no choice but to race Cat V. That's how the system works. Now if you're working under some other local/state system and actually have the choice, then maybe the 3/4 race will be more suitable or "safer". In this area, back when I was racing, the 3's was usually the largest field, and actually had more crashes (though fewer injuries from those crashes).

Your experience in TT's, MTB races, and xc really isn't going to be material in your ability to hang with the 3's in a road race. Depending on how you were able to animate a crit, that might be helpful. If you were just hanging on in those crits, you would likely be way over your head in a 3's road race.

What he said. If you don't hold a license and this is your first USAC crit, you're in the 4/5s. After a couple of strong showings I've seen guys get bumped up to 4 and not have to do their full 10 to cat up, but starting in the 3s? Not gonna happen.

[batman1425]

There are no crashes in pro 1/2 races
There are only a few crashes in cat 3 races
Lots more in cat 4
and EVERYONE crashes in cat 5 races


The above information is completely false.

So is the idea that lower cats have less crashes... This argument comes up a lot but that's from my 20+ years racing experience anyway. And frankly the crashes I've been in and or near in the pro 1/2 races were way worse then others, that's anecdotal but you know, grain of salt and all that..

Having said that, you sound like a solid cat 4 so you should probably stick to the 3/4 race and let the less experienced guys have their chances in the 4/5's.

^^^ This. Crashes happen at all levels. Also, just because somebody is a cat 1/2/3 doesn't mean they have a lot of racing experience. People with big levels of natural fitness can progress pretty quickly to cat3 with out needing a lot of racing sense or bike handling. Power makes up for a lot at the lower levels. In my opinion, those folks can be the most dangerous in the group in the higher categories.

Personally, I don't see a benefit to racing a 4/5 over a 3/4 aside from hunting upgrade points (which could loosely be considered sandbagging by some definitions). You'll learn more as a rider by racing up rather than down.

[batman1425]

If he's done 30+ Crits I'd assume he would be a cat 4 road unless that was very spread out. 10 mass start "road" races (crit or RR) in a calendar year is an automatic upgrade to 4 - or at least it used to be.

[chiasticon]

If he's done 30+ Crits I'd assume he would be a cat 4 road unless that was very spread out. 10 mass start "road" races (crit or RR) in a calendar year is an automatic upgrade to 4 - or at least it used to be.well he's asking if he should do 3/4 or 4/5. so...gotta be a 4, right? :beer:

I'd vote 3/4, given your race experience. but like carpediemracing said, it also depends on how good of a climber you are and how hilly the course is.

[batman1425]

well he's asking if he should do 3/4 or 4/5. so...gotta be a 4, right? :beer:

I'd vote 3/4, given your race experience. but like carpediemracing said, it also depends on how good of a climber you are and how hilly the course is.

Agreed - my comment was in response to David and Flash above.

[19wisconsin64]

Hi, I've noticed that the 4 / 5 races tend to be a lot more scary due to new racers being inexperienced racing in groups.

You can always go to the slower races if you find you can't keep the pace, but you should be fine. It sounds like you have a lot of experience.

Good luck!

[Luwabra]

hands down 3/4 you may place better in the lower combined category but the risk is not worth the glory. A fast guy once told me its better to get dropped by the 3's than win the 4's. RR are pretty boring if you ask me cat 5's just get squirly when the group bunches up Cat 4 in our area of the midwest was pretty safe if you were at or near the front and Cat 3 is even better. FUN stuff if its safe-ish

[quauhnahuac]

thank you for the input. to clarify, i am cat 4 with about half my upgrade points to go to cat 3. road race is pretty flat, and my strength seems to be in making hard pushes for longer periods versus punchy stuff. i generally cant hang with the sprinters at the end of crits and my best results have come from starting the end sprint much sooner than everyone else. but i can put out ~350 watts for 20-25 minutes at a time and have done the eddy merckx category itt in under an hour, which got me a great result. so im hoping these results might translate to good road race results.

based on the feedback, i think cat 3/4 sounds like the proper race to enter, if only because its a little safer/smoother.

[tv_vt]

FWIW the most crashes and the worst crashes that I've seen were in Cat 3 races. This was years ago, but the 3's were by far the most reckless, aggressive bunch out there.

[azrider]

Whatever you do.........make sure you expel water bottles with 2 laps to go in a crit or 2 miles from the finish in a road race.


So. Pro.

[David Tollefson]

thank you for the input. to clarify, i am cat 4 with about half my upgrade points to go to cat 3. road race is pretty flat, and my strength seems to be in making hard pushes for longer periods versus punchy stuff. i generally cant hang with the sprinters at the end of crits and my best results have come from starting the end sprint much sooner than everyone else. but i can put out ~350 watts for 20-25 minutes at a time and have done the eddy merckx category itt in under an hour, which got me a great result. so im hoping these results might translate to good road race results.

based on the feedback, i think cat 3/4 sounds like the proper race to enter, if only because its a little safer/smoother.

Given this: Go with Cat 3, figure out how to follow the right wheels.

[beeatnik]

FWIW the most crashes and the worst crashes that I've seen were in Cat 3 races. This was years ago, but the 3's were by far the most reckless, aggressive bunch out there.

Strong riders, strong egos, weak teams. And few natural or elite sprinters.

[KJMUNC]

my strength seems to be in making hard pushes for longer periods versus punchy stuff. i generally cant hang with the sprinters at the end of crits and my best results have come from starting the end sprint much sooner than everyone else. but i can put out ~350 watts for 20-25 minutes at a time and have done the eddy merckx category itt in under an hour

Given this, go with the 3/4 and try to get yourself in a break. better than sitting in as pack fodder and gives you a chance to test your legs. even if you don't make it until the end you'll get better experience than waiting for someone else to make a move.

[45K10]

Given this, go with the 3/4 and try to get yourself in a break. better than sitting in as pack fodder and gives you a chance to test your legs. even if you don't make it until the end you'll get better experience than waiting for someone else to make a move.

I agree but making a break in a crit and making it in a RR are two different things. Since the course is flat try to make something happen in a cross-wind if possible. With that power output and a few guys who know how to rotate you could get a gap fairly quickly

The problem with Amateur road racing is the yellow line rule. Don't get me wrong it is a very necessary rule but if the field is big enough you may not even see a move go up the road and with the yellow line rule in effect your just stuck there with no where to go.

[Dead Man]

Whatever you do.........make sure you expel water bottles with 2 laps to go in a crit or 2 miles from the finish in a road race.


So. Pro.

If there's any elevation gain, I will do this.. no point dragging an extra 1-2lbs up that last hill, eh?

Pros don't jettison water, though - they ditch the whole bottle.

[drewskey]

Whatever you do.........make sure you expel water bottles with 2 laps to go in a crit or 2 miles from the finish in a road race.


So. Pro.

:banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana:

[JStonebarger]

Strong riders, strong egos, weak teams. And few natural or elite sprinters.

As a grumpy old mentor told me of the 3s: They all still think they can win.

[KJMUNC]

The problem with Amateur road racing is the yellow line rule. Don't get me wrong it is a very necessary rule but if the field is big enough you may not even see a move go up the road and with the yellow line rule in effect your just stuck there with no where to go.

Yep, so you either gotta go early or hang around the front and know where to launch.

I've seen as many solo flyers doomed from the start as I have stay away because no one thinks they can and then eventually the strongest bridge up and it's over for the pack.

I find that the vast majority of riders in the US are crit racers and don't know good RR tactics. Or they think they do but let unknown riders slip away and then watch them win.

[phutterman]

Apologies if it's already been said, but if so I didn't see it.

But: esp. if you're trying to upgrade (sounds like you are) keep in mind that in the 3/4s your 'field size' (for determining upgrade points) will be determined by everybody who shows up. In the 4/5s it'll only be the 4s. In RRs, where there are (compared to crits) big points on the table for bigger fields, that can make a big difference if you do well.

[echappist]

I agree but making a break in a crit and making it in a RR are two different things. Since the course is flat try to make something happen in a cross-wind if possible. With that power output and a few guys who know how to rotate you could get a gap fairly quickly

The problem with Amateur road racing is the yellow line rule. Don't get me wrong it is a very necessary rule but if the field is big enough you may not even see a move go up the road and with the yellow line rule in effect your just stuck there with no where to go.

For the former, there isn't that big of a difference. Instead of a steadier ride, it's slightly more over/under in nature but otherwise requires good timing and a good engine.

For the latter, i agree, but this is why it's important to anticipate the moves and know how to surf to the front (either through the pack or tagging onto a side-blaster)
thank you for the input. to clarify, i am cat 4 with about half my upgrade points to go to cat 3. road race is pretty flat, and my strength seems to be in making hard pushes for longer periods versus punchy stuff. i generally cant hang with the sprinters at the end of crits and my best results have come from starting the end sprint much sooner than everyone else. but i can put out ~350 watts for 20-25 minutes at a time and have done the eddy merckx category itt in under an hour, which got me a great result. so im hoping these results might translate to good road race results.

based on the feedback, i think cat 3/4 sounds like the proper race to enter, if only because its a little safer/smoother.

have you won in a cat-4 race? If so, have the circumstances been the same? If not, i'd go with the 4/5 for improving your tactical acumen so you can learn how to win. If you have won, try different ways of winning. Most strategy really doesn't come into play unless one is at the pointy end of the field.

[shovelhd]

Given this: Go with Cat 3, figure out how to follow the right wheels.

Anticipate the teamwork. Be up front near the teams with multiple riders. If you go with one of them they should let you. If you attack hard enough they may go with you and shut the field down behind. Wait, this is Cat3.

[rusty1200]

Batman1425 is dead on unlike some of the other responses. Please don't think there are no crashes in the 1/2 fields and only crashes in cat 5 races. A bit of advice for your first RR. As in any pack riding, hold your line and don't overlap your front wheel with the wheel in front of you. Good luck and have fun.

[carpediemracing]

Some thoughts.

Overlapping happens. It's almost always fine if you've practiced overlapping in a safer, more controlled environment. It's also safe in certain situations where it's hard to move laterally, like if everyone is packed like sardines and the riders in front of you can't move laterally. Finally it's absolutely unavoidable if there is a crosswind. Overlapping happens. The best thing to do is to practice overlapping and touching wheels.

Although technically the worst crash I've ever seen was in a crit, I've seen some doozies in (hilly) road races. All the big road race ones I've seen have involved descents to some extent (or a section just after a descent) where crash speeds were 45-55 mph. At that point it's very hard to do much to avoid hitting the deck - I'd have a hard time avoiding anything at 55 mph for example. One of the problems with road races is that you don't see the course before, or, if you're doing a long loop, you may only do the course a couple times. It can be hard to learn the intricacies of a course (a corner for example) in just one or two laps. Although this relates mainly to hilly road races, even flatter ones are hard to learn at race speed. Pre-riding a hilly RR course when there's traffic around isn't the same as pre-riding a closed crit course, and on a crit course you can do a number of laps whereas on a longer RR loop it might be a stretch to do just one lap.

Unlike a crit it's much more important to be at the front of a RR. This is due to the almost universal yellow line rule. It definitely changes the flavor of a race, narrowing the course down. It makes it almost impossible to move up at will. The only thing I can think of is to plant someone really strong at the front who doesn't care about their chances, and to have that someone pull the field into a long thin line. This would allow (any) people to move up. Other than that it's on hills. Crosswinds also.

[echappist]

Some thoughts.

Overlapping happens. It's almost always fine if you've practiced overlapping in a safer, more controlled environment. It's also safe in certain situations where it's hard to move laterally, like if everyone is packed like sardines and the riders in front of you can't move laterally. Finally it's absolutely unavoidable if there is a crosswind. Overlapping happens. The best thing to do is to practice overlapping and touching wheels.

Although technically the worst crash I've ever seen was in a crit, I've seen some doozies in (hilly) road races. All the big road race ones I've seen have involved descents to some extent (or a section just after a descent) where crash speeds were 45-55 mph. At that point it's very hard to do much to avoid hitting the deck - I'd have a hard time avoiding anything at 55 mph for example. One of the problems with road races is that you don't see the course before, or, if you're doing a long loop, you may only do the course a couple times. It can be hard to learn the intricacies of a course (a corner for example) in just one or two laps. Although this relates mainly to hilly road races, even flatter ones are hard to learn at race speed. Pre-riding a hilly RR course when there's traffic around isn't the same as pre-riding a closed crit course, and on a crit course you can do a number of laps whereas on a longer RR loop it might be a stretch to do just one lap.

Unlike a crit it's much more important to be at the front of a RR. This is due to the almost universal yellow line rule. It definitely changes the flavor of a race, narrowing the course down. It makes it almost impossible to move up at will. The only thing I can think of is to plant someone really strong at the front who doesn't care about their chances, and to have that someone pull the field into a long thin line. This would allow (any) people to move up. Other than that it's on hills. Crosswinds also.

As i get older, i realize that's what scares me the most: high speed descents in a group and moderate speed (where you go in at 30mph+) downhill corners. The former is especially frightening when there's a curve involved, and it takes me a few times around to get the hang of everything.

[quauhnahuac]

here's a point I'm a bit confused on. Presumably in effect the race is everyone for themselves. Even if people team up before, or belong to teams or whatever, and agree to help each other out, only one person can win. so effectively it is everyone for themselves.

in this hypo, we're all up at the front. a team of four decides to make a break or get a gap or whatever. theyre all working together to take turns on who is pulling. Is there anything stopping me from just going out with them and joining in? or as an extension of that, just going out behind them to keep out of the wind but to never pull because I'm not on a team? I dont know if there are tactics to prevent this, or maybe it's just consdiered a dick move.

[shovelhd]

That is not correct. It is not every man for himself when racing on a well honed team. It's every man for the chosen winner of the day. Your job is to figure out who those riders are on every team worth worrying about, as well as the solo threats, and counter their tactics as best as you can. Looks like you need to learn more about racing to win. There are good books about it, and there's also CDR. Watch his videos. He knows his stuff.

[FlashUNC]

here's a point I'm a bit confused on. Presumably in effect the race is everyone for themselves. Even if people team up before, or belong to teams or whatever, and agree to help each other out, only one person can win. so effectively it is everyone for themselves.

in this hypo, we're all up at the front. a team of four decides to make a break or get a gap or whatever. theyre all working together to take turns on who is pulling. Is there anything stopping me from just going out with them and joining in? or as an extension of that, just going out behind them to keep out of the wind but to never pull because I'm not on a team? I dont know if there are tactics to prevent this, or maybe it's just consdiered a dick move.

You've done 30 crits and don't have a handle on this?

[quauhnahuac]

You've done 30 crits and don't have a handle on this?

ive never been in a situation in a crit where a team has taken off and gotten minutes on everyone else, correct. maybe road races arent like the tdf as i imagine though and people dont really do this in real life haha

[nooneline]

here's a point I'm a bit confused on. Presumably in effect the race is everyone for themselves. Even if people team up before, or belong to teams or whatever, and agree to help each other out, only one person can win. so effectively it is everyone for themselves.

in this hypo, we're all up at the front. a team of four decides to make a break or get a gap or whatever. theyre all working together to take turns on who is pulling. Is there anything stopping me from just going out with them and joining in? or as an extension of that, just going out behind them to keep out of the wind but to never pull because I'm not on a team? I dont know if there are tactics to prevent this, or maybe it's just consdiered a dick move.

alliances happen in a much more ad hoc way. rarely do teammates all get away together. more so, it's alliances of convenience: i attack - for fun, or to support my sprinter in the field to force other teams to chase. somebody else bridges up to me. we decide to give it a shot and work together. we decide to work together because our chances in a move of 2 (or 3, 4, 6, 8, whatever) is better than our chances in a group of 100.

Breakaways are hard, so they have an element of the prisoner's dilemma, of trust, of commitment. If one participant thinks the other is going to screw them, they're not going to let it happen. It tanks the move's cooperative inertia.

If you bridge up to a break of 4, and you don't pull, they're going to ask you to pull, force you to pull, or figure out how to eject you from the move. Otherwise, they're pulling you to the finish line where you'll be fresh. and it's very few tactical situations where the lead is safe enough and there's still incentive for others to tow you to the finish. but that's part of breakaway calculus.

[quauhnahuac]

alliances happen in a much more ad hoc way. rarely do teammates all get away together. more so, it's alliances of convenience: i attack - for fun, or to support my sprinter in the field to force other teams to chase. somebody else bridges up to me. we decide to give it a shot and work together. we decide to work together because our chances in a move of 2 (or 3, 4, 6, 8, whatever) is better than our chances in a group of 100.

Breakaways are hard, so they have an element of the prisoner's dilemma, of trust, of commitment. If one participant thinks the other is going to screw them, they're not going to let it happen. It tanks the move's cooperative inertia.

If you bridge up to a break of 4, and you don't pull, they're going to ask you to pull, force you to pull, or figure out how to eject you from the move. Otherwise, they're pulling you to the finish line where you'll be fresh. and it's very few tactical situations where the lead is safe enough and there's still incentive for others to tow you to the finish. but that's part of breakaway calculus.

hey this explains it well and makes a lot of sense. thanks for addressing the question rather than making a snarky response.

[David Tollefson]

I'll try to give some examples of how team work functioned on the squad I raced with, and hopefully it'll give you some idea of how things might play out. Frankly, independents had either be incredibly strong or incredibly wily or incredibly lucky (or some combination of those) to get good results.

In crits, it wasn't uncommon for a break of 2-3 to get away and get a good gap. But that gap is maintained by the teammates of those in that break keeping the pack under control (a delicate art in itself) or they'll get swallowed quickly. 2-3 just aren't as strong as 40-50. Independents would sometimes get in on those breaks (rare, since most everyone past Cat 4 is on a team), but if they even skipped one pull through the line, they'd get a ration of *****, and likely flicked off the break if they didn't get sharing the load post-haste. I was good at getting breaks started, and keeping them out for a LONG time, but I didn't have a blazing sprint. My job in that case was (1) if we didn't have a sprinter in the break, and I didn't have good odds against the others there, to disrupt the break and let it get swallowed up, or (2) tow a team mate who DID have that blazing sprint to the break.

But in the case of a pack finish, I was first lead-out man. Good TT'er with a diesel engine, I would form it up with 2-3 other team mates on my wheel (the last being the true sprinter), and go to the front and kill myself taking the pace until... as long as I lasted. Sometimes in a crit it would be 2-3 laps remaining. In a road race sometimes as much as 2 miles to go. And I'd take it until the last 400, when my job then became to get out of everyone's way (as I gasped in the gutter, soft-pedaling across the line). Those other team mates would then wind it up, each pulling off as they gassed, until it was the last guy with the final burst to take it to the line (more often than not for the win).

Without team mates, you're at a disadvantage in both those scenarios, unless, as I stated before, you've got some cards up your sleeve.

[echappist]

I'll try to give some examples of how team work functioned on the squad I raced with, and hopefully it'll give you some idea of how things might play out. Frankly, independents had either be incredibly strong or incredibly wily or incredibly lucky (or some combination of those) to get good results.


change that to reasonably and it would be more accurate. Luck plays into this more than people would admit, but you often make your own luck by being astute re: race situation, and a good part of this involves knowing who the strong guys are. Doing well racing solo isn't nearly as hard as you would suggest, and this becomes even easier when one has a decent sprint.

Perhaps your team is quite well drilled (it definitely sounds like it), and maybe i'm underestimating my own strength, but i've found that it's reasonably easy to out maneuver teams at the cat-3 level in all but the flattest of road races.

[nooneline]

You've done 30 crits and don't have a handle on this?

I've seen people with hundreds of races under their belt make boneheaded moves that aren't in their tactical best interest.

[carpediemracing]

here's a point I'm a bit confused on. Presumably in effect the race is everyone for themselves. Even if people team up before, or belong to teams or whatever, and agree to help each other out, only one person can win. so effectively it is everyone for themselves.

in this hypo, we're all up at the front. a team of four decides to make a break or get a gap or whatever. theyre all working together to take turns on who is pulling. Is there anything stopping me from just going out with them and joining in? or as an extension of that, just going out behind them to keep out of the wind but to never pull because I'm not on a team? I dont know if there are tactics to prevent this, or maybe it's just considered a dick move.

Shovel is right in theory. A well honed team usually has one or two leaders (goal is to get a leader to win). Often they'll have a "breakaway" leader and a "sprint" leader. The rest of the riders are there to support.

On my team, which was not as well honed in, say, 2014 (https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=sprinterdellacasa+2014+Tuesday&safe=off&tbm=vid) (watch the Tuesday Night races), maybe half of the team (4-5) showed up just to follow wheels and try to finish. Of the other half there were maybe 2-3 riders that actually wanted to and knew how to work together. A couple were racing just for themselves, regardless of whatever the rest of the team did. One guy freelanced, basically trying to help teammates but if things looked really good he'd make moves for himself. In 2016 he won a Tuesday Night by accident, mainly because there were two teammates (me and another) who were vigilantly marking moves back in the field. My teammate and I ended up sprinting to 2nd and 3rd respectively - I eased in the sprint because I wanted him to win the field sprint.

If you end up in a break and you have no prior history, you'll be expected to contribute. There are a thousand permutations to this. If you work really hard and it nets a 28 mph pace, great, but watch out for moves after you pull off. If you work really hard and it nets a 20 mph pace, everyone will yell at you to get off the front. Then they'll yell at you to pull, but faster.

I have a pretty consistent history in breaks - I get dropped from them. Therefore everyone knows I'm not going to work, everyone knows that it's highly probably they can just work and ride me off their wheels, but everyone also knows that if I sprint I'll beat them. (That's a big "if" but they have to factor that in). This means if I get into a break usually the break sits up.

In road races steady is good. I haven't refreshed my memory recently but bridging to a steady, sort of fast break is pretty tough. I worked out tables where if the break had x seconds going y speed how fast would you need to go to bridge. It's sobering. You need to get the gap first, but if you have, say, 20 seconds, that gap will take an enormous amount of energy to close. Usually breaks "catch themselves", i.e. they blow up. If they can get a gap and then hold a nice steady 25-26 mph for a bit the break will realistically win.

In road races I suspect that most lower Cat racers don't use wind as much as they could. Even watching the Tour it's painfully apparent that even the top guys are sitting in the wind on climbs (I remember thinking "Wow Cadel Evans is the only guy sitting out of the wind after that turn" in more than one stage in more than one Tour). Put someone in the wind for a while and you can demolish their legs. I don't box but I imagine it's like body blows. A big attack is like a big hit on the head, sharp, spectacular, very easy to see results. Putting someone in the wind takes more time to garner results but it's devastating when done right.

[earlfoss]

Do the cat 1 race

[coffeecake]

You've done 30 crits and don't have a handle on this?

I don't find that unreasonable. Discarding your snarky response, bike racing is incredibly difficult. Each time you upgrade categories, you enter a completely different world in terms of fitness requirements and tactical scenarios.

I race at the 1/2 level and have seen strong teams make crucial mistakes in the final laps of a race. There are SO many things to consider like individual personalities, team personalities, the character of the field, etc. These things go beyond the simple advice we can give on an internet forum.

[FlashUNC]

I don't find that unreasonable. Discarding your snarky response, bike racing is incredibly difficult. Each time you upgrade categories, you enter a completely different world in terms of fitness requirements and tactical scenarios.

I race at the 1/2 level and have seen strong teams make crucial mistakes in the final laps of a race. There are SO many things to consider like individual personalities, team personalities, the character of the field, etc. These things go beyond the simple advice we can give on an internet forum.

I completely agree.

But I'm a bit flummoxed by the OP being confused as to how teammates in a break would react to a nonteammate doing zero work in the break if they're not affiliated with a rival team, just hanging on the back waiting for the sprint. Its a fairly self-evident question even if you aren't Raphael Geminiani.

I haven't done 30 crits in my life -- I stopped at about 15 after realizing I didn't like using Tegaderm constantly -- but that one's pretty easy to suss out.

[beeatnik]

There was just the right amount of "snark" in Flash's reply. As with most physical/psychological/psychic competition, it's all chess. And there are Hasbro Chess for Beginners Questions and Kasparov Chess Grandmaster Questions. I read the OP's speculation to be on the Hasbro level. In any case, there are no dumb questions only dumb moves. Haha.

Oh, as for sitting in on a break (The Parasitic Passenger), you can do that all day in a training crit. I do it all the time at the World Famous Rose Bowl when I get into accidental breaks. I don't go out there to suffer so if guys want to go off the front and I'm riding at their pace, there are times I cooperate and there are times I just sit in for shiz and gigglez. In the end, it's great training for following surges and learning to hold wheels.

[shovelhd]

If you sat in the break at Bethel I would spit you out the back.

[beeatnik]

Buahahahah. Bethel must be Paris Roubaix.

[shovelhd]

Thats so awesome.

[beeatnik]

shovelhd, i like your sarcastic style

anyhoo, amateur racing is dumb

but

it's not

but

it is

did I mention Catella is the clothing sponsor for an elite pro/cat1 team. check them out!

https://www.facebook.com/Centric-Race-Team-747348988710385/

[Dead Man]

Amateur racing is supposed to just be FUN.

[beeatnik]

^:hello:

[coffeecake]

Oh, as for sitting in on a break (The Parasitic Passenger), you can do that all day in a training crit. I do it all the time at the World Famous Rose Bowl when I get into accidental breaks. I don't go out there to suffer so if guys want to go off the front and I'm riding at their pace, there are times I cooperate and there are times I just sit in for shiz and gigglez. In the end, it's great training for following surges and learning to hold wheels.

Training races are generally a different story -- everyone shows up with different motivations... to get a workout, to try some bold tactic, to practice sprinting.

There are situations where a "Parasitic Passenger" may make the break and sit in. This rider may strike a deal with the other riders that he will not contest the sprint if his companions do not drop him. In this case, he can take token pulls or skip pulls altogether.

If he were to break this tacit agreement, the breakaway companions would likely verbally abuse him and he would lose respect within his cycling scene. When you race the same guys every weekend, you learn who is slimy and who is a good sportsman.

Some people may not care about how they are perceived by other racers. But to beg your way into the break and then try and jump the other guys will have adverse effects for the remainder of the season (e.g., guys will chop your wheel, bump you unnecessarily, not let you in to the draft). This behavior usually depends on what your local/regional scene is like.

[beeatnik]

Training races are generally a different story -- everyone shows up with different motivations... to get a workout, to try some bold tactic, to practice sprinting.

There are situations where a "Parasitic Passenger" may make the break and sit in. This rider may strike a deal with the other riders that he will not contest the sprint if his companions do not drop him. In this case, he can take token pulls or skip pulls altogether.

If he were to break this tacit agreement, the breakaway companions would likely verbally abuse him and he would lose respect within his cycling scene. When you race the same guys every weekend, you learn who is slimy and who is a good sportsman.

Some people may not care about how they are perceived by other racers. But to beg your way into the break and then try and jump the other guys will have adverse effects for the remainder of the season (e.g., guys will chop your wheel, bump you unnecessarily, not let you in to the draft). This behavior usually depends on what your local/regional scene is like.

Good points.

For me, most of the appeal of a training crit revolves (intended) around the various skill levels and motivations which animate the ride. As you mention, there are riders with clear goals which may be to maintain a high average speed, to drop the peloton, to do intervals, to feed the ego, etc. At the World Famous Rose Bowl, it's always the same 10-15 riders who make the break and they generally work together TTT style. Spending 45 minutes trying to stay way from 150 cats is not my idea of fun or even good training. But, I'm a Pavlovian dog so when they go, I go. In those situations, I do my share of the work and more. The times I've been a passenger I was either on a 30 pound bike with down tube shifters (user Pasadena can vouch) and dangling a bike length plus off the rear or hanging around with 2 or 3 sprinters taking hopeless flyers. And what's the old saying, there's no honor among sprinters aka don't work with quadzillas on a training crit cos they'll stab you in the back with their senseless surging.

[shovelhd]

Bethel was a training series, but there were series awards, so it was a bit more serious than a Tuesday Night Worlds. Racing can be fun even if results matter.

[beeatnik]

Is that where Strickland was trying to earn his 10 points?

[carpediemracing]

Strickland was doing the T-Town training races in PA for his 10 points.

Bethel was my race, basically the season opener for New England. For the last 10 or so years each race was permitted separately, counted for upgrade points, so it was basically a series of one day crits. Riders who knew that would treat the race pretty seriously because it was a great launch point for an upgrade.

I mainly did the 3-4s because I was a 3. I tried to do the 123/P123 but after 15-17 years or so I usually didn't do the second race except the one year I was a 2.

To be honest I found that about 1/3 of the 3-4s were trying to do well. About 2/3 were doing just miles and went to help their buddies. People did try to win the Leader's Jersey, and on the last week, if there was a tight race for the overall, there'd be a massive battle for the jersey. Tracking racers in my head, I'd see 20 guys semi-working for one guy, another 20 semi-working for the other, out of an 80-100 rider field. The biggest year was 2010 when there were two 125 rider 3-4 fields, I think three weeks of 100 rider fields, with similar fields in other races (100 P123, 80-90 M45, 80? Cat 4s, 50-70 Cat 5s spread across two races).

When I did the Bethels I had to remember that after 10-15-20 years I had a lot of friends/allies doing the races. A lot of them would help me in some way, moving me up, chasing for me, etc, all done on their own, without me asking. I realized only after I made one clip that a former teammate was chasing for me. I asked him about it a couple years later and he told me that yes, he worked his butt off for me in the races to keep things together so I could sprint. I was so far back most of the time that I didn't even know it.