Latex tube mystery

[dem]

..what the heck is going on here? I thought I'd try out latex tubes ~1500 miles ago (Velocity A23, GP4000II, 2 layers Stan's Yellow rim tape) Usually run Michelin A1 Aircomp - no issues or strange patterns.

Had a real flat (glass shard) and swapped tubes - the tube that came out looked kinda funny (see below) - then had another slow leak.. tube that came out of there had a similar look and was leaking through one of the distended areas. And so on.

I am befuddled. The rim strip looks solid (and the pattern doesn't match the holes?) - maybe it is oozing up between the hook & bead? The gap there is very small due to the tubeless interface?

Either way, I think my latex experiment is coming to an end unless this can be definitively explained.

Mega size pics and more angles:
Picture 1 (https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/F5fHgfeVA8rGjwkfiJFWZOfoyZEA-JVs3MJTTQ8_MHzHNtxfu5lQ6hxr15Ws20A-QfG4-nFve7-xn0jlfAyshPNlxF-IhHS_YI5pxxYlIyY0fJiAH9-sC4idnYbOBWunp2icdYEDouaEYHk6220eAMgdW_sTf9I21Fil-9AniRLoCifCngHuy9YzKx1D48R03vGEVDIZsEj18LhM-jar0V9vIzU0qjMj68_dfL0I71VkSNBr-aZfPAqb7mKWpi50zbZBVp2Uppoj9fHV5Qb_MgKuWMWkLsys2eN qPGqoKDig7eO0i7pSQhYI02o0Z1K_1p_f_xFHmA54MuxIbWSF-ny9YTV7MYULjRSbJvdTf9QX2obmkYR2VLN6Nv0fJH73YSBqjY0 BwLqJu5Je3qRNGbK5anxZ6n6clfs6uG7DhxhZy5Cng8aYRe9Df 06NOyrMGnukrDAXXTnb8JhCekBc6ns1Rj_IOGccqNfoXEsHd3A nfuL478srNvn2jfEp5LJGwqLW8P9YfTxLX_rejMnidvn8RYJjy q09TT53m8YMNc1D14tJVNi00XzOpBQuyBBJzaJH7l0iRQwLmv5 Wstp1hWOJmJVN5j9PFao8BvFV-fT83eum=w1371-h772-no)
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Picture 3 (https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/W33Dh983VbVCZQ1vhsyueSD6JLraxNWLuZIhkfkCP3ChYGQTZI UWM4edS6LfavcujztfUibhDO41L-bK9BNZtFl3uIwOfpD4a8E2tqMyt6vlWDaJJl7I03QiD7y_ADrh yVN9olGDP9LPEni3RjQ3eDbIywIq0W9zVCdoo8qIqfUOAav6-lPJtEz3x_0Y5O5HVWWzLExfqf61Xp0f6j19LEKEk2HOQECEsue EOMP2RwByMzq2xtcP9W5XgYE0E_ZDne2C9qkmZK5TYDcfeQ_iL KRQLvlg1Krie704ms71qNgW3R5J2TJfBdq-fwFIoga6ki8DdDFWWMEQoqWpbKq4uCdU62wxAywWLYHtd9etLR K4YV9Zo702ORKS9jgTr_5DzXdHm1tkR0MZbIurWtB87-rQrng8oarD6EIemXmi8EIkWwo9JgjOYAK3eRHi4DRkqQqk7J6r 4fIP6xfPLwXLUOElDFR5V8C5F5SvVB5cXBUCt15qka8RW7Z2nX GiDS0qHf2dd8GOqTPpJjiq-5gPy-SMsPoWXyfowO4kLeSsrUi89zzvxHJJp4CYibYz4WZOWOtMy62L xmYk3jvb4ULG9lQkuGlIHHyTe3hVvawKaONB25hW=w1371-h772-no)
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Picture 10 (https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/nELe4Ar5g34rMnTgeDXnRkqHgZQYTA9AlqHPIiz15s0mgNAr2q 8hoR_k-JHB2zvNviRk8c7N2GH2CteU6bzOvA8GRBH6CAwbGrTmiojwQWN DKYtzOFIYqv4nxcSnKhCOT8Mu4Il9cZ8zLy5OgsQXqX84L4WcB rx9KAvT0XtsYsPXa8hGgl4BQxh0L7RMwkMldT3aIqlZuKU9WYL UP5f7y9kzHSIYskp7sejzdcDLiXh7OVMkJePU-NDBcVov2azrjWbDK2xfstBXTW5CAH2tnmZ95UI_imOw0IpUKbt 0X2cpv5IctWlSdfHHPOdBOkRnv7TL2vlc5vHUVf-O-U9R_NO8QltvptE_qQ4_-1nJNQyEOvmexTUYRRLlxtJ6sTNdgm3aROlrSxTBo5sf8l528Rj 8v5Rjz9dxeZxtWvNmeCQUTMFCVD057QxCyRRePBiVqNRb0xF0_ gAXLpfDC3tEKTK2dy_TPdf_ApFQbNn_1L2hxSONLltv9shk-ySrek_2p6PnaV4hTWwTE-NClIVHEeqtXpNlDpHnHHRZLGEPQ7zKUrFTR3BOryt-cVINHJQl5SX5MBReX3srymVsQN0ZSKj9TWsVv-WExlqbGg1w8fQmbGkc=w1371-h772-no)
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[kramnnim]

:confused:

[Black Dog]

Is the deformation just in one area or around the circumference of the entire tube?

I have run latex tubes for nearly a decade and have seen some similar types of patterns when pinched or when powder was not used. Did you coat the inside of the tire with talcum powder/baby powder before you put the tube in?

[lhuerta]

Poor mounting technique (no offense)....the tube is very obviously creeping out from tire bead and getting pinched, not clear why u didn't have a blowout. When mounting, slightly inflate tube so it gets tucked in tire casing and use LOTS of talcum powder to insure that it slides around in ur tire when hooking tire bead. Before inflating pinch sidewalk all around on both sides to insure that tire is fully enveloped INSIDE tire and not peeking out from bead.

[dem]

Ha, yes, the first time around I figured I was sloppy on the install..

2nd and 3rd I did the ultra careful method:
Talc'd the hell out of tire and tube
Tube in
Just enough air to give it shape, inspect all beads
Inflate to 20 or 30 psi, deflate and inspect
Inflate to seat beads, deflate and inspect
Reinflate to 95 psi.

There is no way I seated that tire with any tube exposed.

The pattern mostly travels around the tube, but in some cases it is more of a line than the rail-road-track.

[Cicli]

I have had that on a few Michelin tubes. Gave up on latex tubes.

[Tony]

I use Vredestein latex, talcum powder to install, end up sometimes with this same pattern on the tube...1/3 of the tubes?

[dem]

Well that's weirder and weirder. What tire/rim/tube combos?

Although I guess I'm going back to aircomps, which is too bad, because I swear it does feel smoother on latex! (at least for the first 100 yards.. then I can't tell.)

[ripvanrando]

It looks like the rim tape is not stretched on tightly enough and it is not wide enough resulting in the latex migrating under the tape (on some photos it looks like that to me). Just my theory. I have seen similar patterns with other latex tubes. I now stretch the hell out of the tape and go a little wide bead to bead. I clean the rim beofre applying the tape. Not definitive. You might try taping wider and tighter if you have another tube. I use Challenge CX width latex tubes on my rando width tires and 23-27 mm width Challenge tubes on anything 28mm and below. If I could find 650B latex tubes, I have them there too

[dem]

Another theory: talc is insufficient barrier, and the tube is bonding in some way to the stan's rim tape? Then the constant deflation/inflation causes some tire/tube shifting which then leads to the strange bunching and deformity?

It does feel sorta (baaarely) "sticky" when I peel away the tube from the bead.

Anyone rolling Latex tube + Stans rim tape?

(I did inspect the edge of the tape - it looks stuck down solid, no lifting that I could tell, I even poked around a bit with an awl)

[Tony]

Well that's weirder and weirder. What tire/rim/tube combos?

Although I guess I'm going back to aircomps, which is too bad, because I swear it does feel smoother on latex! (at least for the first 100 yards.. then I can't tell.)

Pacenti SL 23, Stan's 340 rims, Vittoria Corsa 25's, Vittoria Rubino Pro 25's tires, all with Vredestein race latex tubes and Stan's rim tape

[ripvanrando]

I use blue Scotch film strapping tape. Much cheaper and better adhesive than Stans

I stick to my theory.....:D

[Black Dog]

Just ride them. I have latex tubes on wheels that look far worse than that and have been using them for years. manufacturing latex tubes is 1/2 science, 1/2 art, and 1/2 luck. Patch the leaks with park self adhesive patches and ride away. You do know that they lose about 5-10psi per day. Latex is slightly gas permeable. This is normal.

[Tony]

Another theory: talc is insufficient barrier, and the tube is bonding in some way to the stan's rim tape? Then the constant deflation/inflation causes some tire/tube shifting which then leads to the strange bunching and deformity?

It does feel sorta (baaarely) "sticky" when I peel away the tube from the bead.

Anyone rolling Latex tube + Stans rim tape?

(I did inspect the edge of the tape - it looks stuck down solid, no lifting that I could tell, I even poked around a bit with an awl)

I think you may be correct, makes sense. I can't think of any other reason why this is occurring outside of the tube being defective.

Thinking about this more....the bike I use most often does not sit around long enough for the tire to fully deflate, maybe 35 psi at the most. I don't think I've seen this problem on this bike, but can't be sure. On the other hand the bike that does sit and fully deflates between rides I've seen the same problem with the latex tube looking like yours.

[dem]

FYI.. I emailed Michelin and they refused to even look at the pictures because I'm using a Continental tire.

At least they replied instead of ignoring it, I guess?

[ColonelJLloyd]

Anyone rolling Latex tube + Stans rim tape?

Yes. There is no good reason to use anything but tubeless rim tape these days.

[Luwabra]

if your going to use the A23 as OP indicated with tubeless rim tape why not just go tubeless? im sold. very few flats, very easy setup after you get used to the process.

[dem]

My high pressure tubeless experience did not go well. My first experience I had a puncture that did not seal (Stan's), chalked it up to bad luck and switched to OrangeSeal.

Couple hundred miles later, I had a front puncture which turned into an aerosol sprayer at 30 mph going downhill, which then hosed down my rear tire. So I had a flat front tire, and plus the rear tire covered in slippery goo. Somehow I kept it upright while sliding and skittering to a halt.

(at least at high PSI. I'm still running tubeless <60 PSI on 700x35 gravel bike tires and <25 psi in 2.4" mountain)

[JStonebarger]

Looks like the effect of heat to me. That said, I'd go ahead and ride it.

[drewskey]

Just ride them. I have latex tubes on wheels that look far worse than that and have been using them for years. manufacturing latex tubes is 1/2 science, 1/2 art, and 1/2 luck. Patch the leaks with park self adhesive patches and ride away. You do know that they lose about 5-10psi per day. Latex is slightly gas permeable. This is normal.

I use pieces from an old latex tube with rubber cement. It *seems* to work well. However, I won't race on this.

[dem]

Hm, heat is an interesting theory. I wonder how the tire/tube interface behaves under heat.

I do ride the crazy steeps and regularly hit terminal velocity and brake hard for the switchback corners (for the locals: montebello, bohlman, hicks, black, montevina, etc. All multi-mile 15% plus grades with sharp turns you have to brake hard for.)

Since I just put a new tire and my (last) new latex tube on the front and I've only done one ride.. maybe I'll pull it off tonight and see what it looks like.

[dem]

Well, I give up - I pulled the front, which has 50 miles on it, and it has the same pattern on it. And I'm 95% sure it is actually the portion that touches the rim tape (new tube, so it has nice clean markings from bead-to-bead)

Back to Aircomp A1 for me. I will stop experimenting with crazy stuff and just ride. :)

[Black Dog]

Why give up? It is a pattern in a deflated tube. What does this have to do with its on the wheel performance. Why are you worried about this. Not being snarky just curious/confused. This is not an entirely unusual abboration and certainly should not lead to instantaneous death and dismemberment. :confused: 10 years of latex tubes exclusively on all my bikes in all conditions including long steep descents in the alps and less than a half dozen flats and never a catastrophic failure. That is over 100000km. If you don't want them mail them to me for rigours testing...:D

[Erik_A]

I would switch to cloth rim tape with latex tubes.

[Tony]

I would switch to cloth rim tape with latex tubes.

Not a bad idea! Will try cloth tape on one of my bikes.

[dem]

Oh, the reason why, is that they are failing at the crease in the pattern. As in, a puncture.

Not the normal latex-tube-leak-down, but actually causing a hole, after 1500 miles of deflate/inflate/riding.

As someone pointed out earlier, it may be exacerbated by the fact I ride other bikes depending on the time of year, so I may go 5 or 6 days without reinflating these tires, so that may be making it worse.

Maybe I will try again next time I redo the wheels.

[JStonebarger]

I think Black Dog is absolutely right. I don't see this causing a problem. Try cloth rim tape if it bothers you, but don't sweat it.

A) Flats are not the end of the world. I'd much rather risk an occasional flat than sacrifice 3-5 watts with every pedal stroke. (Yikes!)

B) In fact, latex tubes are less likely to pinch flat or puncture than butyl are. They are slightly more likely to suffer a blowout -- although mainly due to user error or worn tires or tape -- but this clearly is not a blowout.